Power dmg vs condi dmg

[Jski.6180]

There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Condi where NOT added to the game to be a main dmg type they where added dmg type with utility effects. It all got messed up with the condi stacking effects over all messing up the balancing of condi dmg vs power dmg that was never part of the pvp game play aimed but a pve effect when first added in.

Its like the last 6 years did not happen for a lot of ppl here.

[Choppy.4183]

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Condi where NOT added to the game to be a main dmg type they where added dmg type with utility effects. It all got messed up with the condi stacking effects over all messing up the balancing of condi dmg vs power dmg that was never part of the pvp game play aimed but a pve effect when first added in.

Its like the last 6 years did not happen for a lot of ppl here.

That's a good point, that the lethality of condis isn't restricted to just the damage. But it must be noted that the non-damage benefits work just as well on power builds (with the exception of duration boosts through expertise, etc).

For example, I'm currently running an all zerk gear build that takes advantage of poisons heal suppression, and movement impairment through cripple and immob. I've more than once been ruined by necros burying me in chill, fear, and poison before unleashing unholy power damahe while doing almost no condi damage.

Given that, it makes more sense to just focus on the damage side when comparing the state of condi vs power builds, no?

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Condi is good 1v1 but power still compete there on pretty much any class. Once above 2 mans power completely dominate. In fact there is basicly only one "meta" condi build and thats torment rev. The rest are niche which often have an equally powerfull or superior power variant. Even if you compare power rev, thats basicly as strong as torment rev.

Torment and unblockable fear its quite deadly.~2 condi revs with sup rune of sunless or 1 condi with torment rune rev and necro for fears if unblockable the better.Condition is very strong at low scale combat.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Power.

It's better without a doubt in large scale, stronger in small scale, and still solid on its own. Most people I see are usually running some kind of power build. Condi builds are generally restricted to outliers based on certain overtuned builds like condi rev, but that's not because condi is better.

Also, basically any successful condi build has burst that can be like a power build. The current state of the game is that basically most people aren't going to stay around to fight, and if they do, you will get others interfering. So bursting down people and getting rid of them faster is more desirable. Also, many condi builds that are strong (such as burn guard) are often not pure condi but add something like grieving, making it more of a hybrid.

Condi is better against glass builds that require active mitigation though. For example, it's rather strong against glass thieves that think dagger storm will save them, or rangers that think stone signet is an invul. The problem is that there are too many people running builds that simply have way too many cleanses and the appearance of any of them will ruin your day or lock you in a 15 minute borefest stalemate.

Condi is also better when combined with stealth and mobility. But that's more due to stealth and mobility being so effective.

[Jski.6180]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Condi where NOT added to the game to be a main dmg type they where added dmg type with utility effects. It all got messed up with the condi stacking effects over all messing up the balancing of condi dmg vs power dmg that was never part of the pvp game play aimed but a pve effect when first added in.

Its like the last 6 years did not happen for a lot of ppl here.

That's a good point, that the lethality of condis isn't restricted to just the damage. But it must be noted that the non-damage benefits work just as well on power builds (with the exception of duration boosts through expertise, etc).

For example, I'm currently running an all zerk gear build that takes advantage of poisons heal suppression, and movement impairment through cripple and immob. I've more than once been ruined by necros burying me in chill, fear, and poison before unleashing unholy power damahe while doing almost no condi damage.

Given that, it makes more sense to just focus on the damage side when comparing the state of condi vs power builds, no?

Duration and the ability to run weapons that are "condi" aimed or "power" aimed messing up that ideal of balancing sadly.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Also what makes condi so ineffective these days is people running durability runes in WvW, you can go full zerk gears and run durability and suddenly you have the dmg and the tankiness.This isn't even including people who DO run sigil of cleansing.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

[Jski.6180]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

Right but the ability for "condi dmg skills" to reapply it over and over makes the utility of the condis harder to deal with (as well as having covers condis) and the ability to have higher condi duration lets the utility of the condi dmg build last longer AND do more dmg.

Power is missing utility base off of power in one way or another sadly doing more dmg when a target hp is x% never works that well it seems.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Jski.6180 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

Right but the ability for "condi dmg skills" to reapply it over and over makes the utility of the condis harder to deal with (as well as having covers condis) and the ability to have higher condi duration lets the utility of the condi dmg build last longer AND do more dmg.

Power is missing utility base off of power in one way or another sadly doing more dmg when a target hp is x% never works that well it seems.The "utility" in power is roflstomping the enemy by focus fire so you got 1 less to fight. Even just "scaring" people away can be enough to flip a fight - few care with 15 stacks of torment on them because they're just about to cleanse it anyway, but if you just took 15K damage in a second well kitten.

It aint more complicated than that. Thats why it becomes vastly superior above 1v1, especially once you start becoming so many you can stack CC or start with stacking and stealth ambushes.

[HokenPWNZ.7628]

@"Sansar.1302" said:It feels like condi is the dominant dmg type now,

You Don’t Say?

[HotDelirium.7984]

Isn't the direct damage vs condi damage all about circumstances and play style?

If your toon is constantly attacking/landing blows with higher amounts of hits, a focus on direct damage traits (power, pre, ferocity) is bestVSIf your weapon and utility skills apply conditions (regardless of their direct damage amount) and you aren't landing as many blows then a condi build is best due to the damage needing a full second tic to apply damage.

[Jski.6180]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

Right but the ability for "condi dmg skills" to reapply it over and over makes the utility of the condis harder to deal with (as well as having covers condis) and the ability to have higher condi duration lets the utility of the condi dmg build last longer AND do more dmg.

Power is missing utility base off of power in one way or another sadly doing more dmg when a target hp is x% never works that well it seems.The "utility" in power is roflstomping the enemy by focus fire so you got 1 less to fight. Even just "scaring" people away can be enough to flip a fight - few care with 15 stacks of torment on them because they're just about to cleanse it anyway, but if you just took 15K damage in a second well kitten.

It aint more complicated than that. Thats why it becomes vastly superior above 1v1, especially once you start becoming so many you can stack CC or start with stacking and stealth ambushes.

One shots builds are not good for power or condi so there should be room as anet rains them in for power dmg to get utility and non critical dps builds.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Jski.6180 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

Right but the ability for "condi dmg skills" to reapply it over and over makes the utility of the condis harder to deal with (as well as having covers condis) and the ability to have higher condi duration lets the utility of the condi dmg build last longer AND do more dmg.

Power is missing utility base off of power in one way or another sadly doing more dmg when a target hp is x% never works that well it seems.

So your problem is with cover condis. That makes a bit more sense.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@HotDelirium.7984 said:Isn't the direct damage vs condi damage all about circumstances and play style?

If your toon is constantly attacking/landing blows with higher amounts of hits, a focus on direct damage traits (power, pre, ferocity) is bestVSIf your weapon and utility skills apply conditions (regardless of their direct damage amount) and you aren't landing as many blows then a condi build is best due to the damage needing a full second tic to apply damage.

Largely yes, but your example isn't accurate.. Conditions don't necessarily have a higher damage per attack rating than power skills do on their respective builds. The circumstances that really balance out the two damage types consist of things like protection availability, cleanse availability, imbalances between skill coefficients, etc.

The main advantage that most condi builds have is range, Scourge, Mirage, Firebrand, Renegade, and Druid don't have to get close to you to do a lot of damage. Their respective power builds usually do have to get close. This is largely by design, because conditions innately need more time to do their full damage, so condition builds have to innately possess more survivability in some way. There's some exceptions, of course, but there's a reason why you don't see many burnzerkers in WvW.

Part of the reason why there's so much debate on this is because the circumstances keep changing. This is because condition cleanses tend to be team-wide. This causes a geometric growth in cleanses as teams grow larger. I.E. if one person cleanses 3 in an AoE, and then another person shows up, they now both have 6 cleanses (total: 12). If a third person shows up, all 3 now have 9 (27 total). Four people get 48 total cleanses, and 5 people get 75 total cleanses. So, if there are 5 people on ram at the door, and a scourge starts using all of their AoE conditions, those conditions will be quickly removed and largely do nothing. However, if a reaper were to drop wells and start their spin attack, it isn't unreasonable for multiple people to go down regardless of defensive buffs, because protection doesn't get stronger the more people are around.

Vulnerability to conditions is also build specific. For example, I have a Weaver build that will automatically pulse out an AoE cleanse every time I grant swiftness or regen, and it does this a lot. Any team I'm on is effectively immune to conditions so long as they stand next to me. To contrast, I have an old Herald Build that just uses my PVE berserker weapons (force, impacting) on top of a marauder gear set. I haven't brought it out after the February balance patch, because all of the changes left my build with a single cleanse every 10 seconds. I can't power through condi builds anymore, so I'm left with three options: lose to condis, remove an entire trait line just to have corruption give me 2 more every 10 seconds, or craft unique sets of ascended weapons just to run a Sigil of Cleansing on them.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Vulnerability to conditions is also build specific. For example, I have a Weaver build that will automatically pulse out an AoE cleanse every time I grant swiftness or regen, and it does this a lot. Any team I'm on is effectively immune to conditions so long as they stand next to me. To contrast, I have an old Herald Build that just uses my PVE berserker weapons (force, impacting) on top of a marauder gear set. I haven't brought it out after the February balance patch, because all of the changes left my build with a single cleanse every 10 seconds. I can't power through condi builds anymore, so I'm left with three options: lose to condis, remove an entire trait line just to have corruption give me 2 more every 10 seconds, or craft unique sets of ascended weapons just to run a Sigil of Cleansing on them.

And that is pretty popular today, both solo and 2+ mans. A decent melee weaver render my condi engie null and void. I can barely get any damage in while they can have so much in return that trailblazer feel like glass. My 2-3 man guild often roam with solo builds (hence alot of condi) but meeting certain combos is a brick wall. You can add scrapper and firebrand pocket healers to that, which is a given at 3+.

[Jski.6180]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Jski.6180 said:There is a vastly under-estimation of what condi is doing beyond just dps. Condi dmg is coming with a massive amount of utility as the utility of power dmg IS coming from condi effects of the power skill.

When a condi dmg spike when some one dose an act move or use a skill that it a type of utility that cause problem for the other player in combat. There just nothing like that on power dmg.

When a condi dmg weakens a heal or healing effect that is a massive utility effect that power dmg just simply dose not have at all.

Uhh, most of the utility of condi damage can also be used by power builds. Poison reduces heals by the same amount even if you have 0 condi damage. Same applies to cripple, chill, and especially immobilize. Yes, condi builds will invest in expertise and make these things a bit more effective, but these things are more about fire and forget anyways for the burst.

Many power builds can take advantage of these things (such as poison master on ranger) very easily too.

Right but the ability for "condi dmg skills" to reapply it over and over makes the utility of the condis harder to deal with (as well as having covers condis) and the ability to have higher condi duration lets the utility of the condi dmg build last longer AND do more dmg.

Power is missing utility base off of power in one way or another sadly doing more dmg when a target hp is x% never works that well it seems.

So your problem is with cover condis. That makes a bit more sense.

Its both cover condis and duration if you cant clear every thing throw on you a long duration condi is just simply un-fun.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Vulnerability to conditions is also build specific. For example, I have a Weaver build that will automatically pulse out an AoE cleanse every time I grant swiftness or regen, and it does this a lot. Any team I'm on is effectively immune to conditions so long as they stand next to me. To contrast, I have an old Herald Build that just uses my PVE berserker weapons (force, impacting) on top of a marauder gear set. I haven't brought it out after the February balance patch, because all of the changes left my build with a single cleanse every 10 seconds. I can't power through condi builds anymore, so I'm left with three options: lose to condis, remove an entire trait line just to have corruption give me 2 more every 10 seconds, or craft unique sets of ascended weapons just to run a Sigil of Cleansing on them.

And that is pretty popular today, both solo and 2+ mans. A decent melee weaver render my condi engie null and void. I can barely get any damage in while they can have so much in return that trailblazer feel like glass. My 2-3 man guild often roam with solo builds (hence alot of condi) but meeting certain combos is a brick wall. You can add scrapper and firebrand pocket healers to that, which is a given at 3+.

Firebrand support small scale is easy to deal with because you can easily bait out their stab and they have no mobility so any time you bat them away, they're useless for a bit.

Vs scrapper support you just cry because even if you can down someone they will just stealth and res and there is no way to outcompete their cleanses. With superspeed and sometimes even Rocket Boots, there is also no stringing out the fight vs them. If they're properly specc'd you're probably just healing them, lol.

Even not support scrappers kinda ruin things easily if they're not glass. I take anticorrosion plating on my roaming power scrapper and it is just kinda silly how I can ruin almost anyone's fights because condis are all null and void, even without Alchemy and can get ress's even in front of enemy zergs.

I have no idea what to do against those weavers. It seems like their only purpose is to tie people down. I just bat them away and pretend I didn't see anything.

And yea truth be told, if people are running like 3/5 support in a small group, I just don't bother with that. Only time you can succeed is if one lags behind and of course you still need to kill them before they inevitably start crying for help.

[Kondor.2904]

how? can? people? still? complain? about? condis? in 2021?

you can literally make yourself immune in wvw to condis by JUST getting proper sigils and maybe runes, without even counting all the the passive/active condi cleansing from weapons skills/traits/fields/utilities and actual ability to, you know, dodge/block/invuln/blind/resistance spam incoming condi inflicting attacks

if you do not will to invest in condi management tools, that's on you, not on condis