[F1] Spear of Justice

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Examples?

As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through.

Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way.

Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Examples?

As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through.

Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way.

Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken.

The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I think the speed is fine. What I would like improved is for their to be a 1 sec cooldown before it can be used again to pull your target. So many times I press F1 only for it to go out to the target and immediately come back putting it on cooldown and costing me the damage buff. Not to mention that like half the time that I press it, it doesn't even go off.

[Yasai.3549]

Speed is fine.What isn't cool is the tether range : It doesn't have one.

Also idk how I feel about a 1200 pull

[otto.5684]

It was the way it is for over 5 years. Considering that it does literally no damage in pvp, has 0.75 sec cast time and has 40 sec CD on pull, not sure why it needs a nerf. Even if you could urge that condi DH is strong or over performing in spvp, the pull has almost nothing to do with that. Heck, power DH is garbage in spvp.

This is the sort of circular thinking that needs to stop.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@otto.5684 said:It was the way it is for over 5 years. Considering that it does literally no damage in pvp, has 0.75 sec cast time and has 40 sec CD on pull, not sure why it needs a nerf. Even if you could urge that condi DH is strong or over performing in spvp, the pull has almost nothing to do with that. Heck, power DH is garbage in spvp.

This is the sort of circular thinking that needs to stop.

I am not asking for a nerf, though. I am asking for people to read the damn OP.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Examples?

As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through.

Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way.

Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken.

The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished.

Since you said "structures" I am assuming WvW? If so, yeah, LoS is so broken, hell, anet removed LoS from ranger LB #5 and it can be fired clear over unbroken walls and hit siege on supply huts inside the structure. While some other classes/skills hold to VERY strict LoS rules, heck, even autos from ranger LB can be like this, why anet has not leveled all skills to follow the same LoS rules I don't know and structures them selves in WvW are fairly glitchy.

As for dodging F1, it sounds more like timing, the changes in cast time and "time in flight" depending on how far the DH is from you, if you dodge right as they cast it at max 1,200 range, you are probably still going to get tagged, you need them to be 900 or so units away, like the video below and even then I waited a fraction of a second after he casts to dodge, but notice the "spear tip" as you put it is still far away from me at the time of dodging, and I dodge like this almost always when fighting a DH outside of max range or very close F1 use, as max range I wait a bit more before dodging, even still If I do get tagged it doesn't do much dmg and you still have time to use stab/stun break to stop the pull or let them pull if they didn't lay any traps. When dealing with full trapper builds I actually let them pull me so I can trigger the traps, stun break and dodge out as Maw will only hold you if you don't dodge the "bite", if you dodge this you are free without wasting stab.

About the 1:00 mark:

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Examples?

As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through.

Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way.

Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken.

The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished.

Since you said "structures" I am assuming WvW? If so, yeah, LoS is so broken, hell, anet removed LoS from ranger LB #5 and it can be fired clear over unbroken walls and hit siege on supply huts inside the structure. While some other classes/skills hold to VERY strict LoS rules, heck, even autos from ranger LB can be like this, why anet has not leveled all skills to follow the same LoS rules I don't know and structures them selves in WvW are fairly glitchy.

As for dodging F1, it sounds more like timing, the changes in cast time and "time in flight" depending on how far the DH is from you, if you dodge right as they cast it at max 1,200 range, you are probably still going to get tagged, you need them to be 900 or so units away, like the video below and even then I waited a fraction of a second after he casts to dodge, but notice the "spear tip" as you put it is still far away from me at the time of dodging, and I dodge like this almost always when fighting a DH outside of max range or very close F1 use, as max range I wait a bit more before dodging, even still If I do get tagged it doesn't do much dmg and you still have time to use stab/stun break to stop the pull or let them pull if they didn't lay any traps. When dealing with full trapper builds I actually let them pull me so I can trigger the traps, stun break and dodge out as Maw will only hold you if you don't dodge the "bite", if you dodge this you are free without wasting stab.

About the 1:00 mark:

Nice example. The visual cue seems very inconsistent at times (compared to the "point of impact"). Now obviously you'll be watching for the throw animation; but when you're i.e. 1v2 and watching for other animations as well, sometimes the actual projectile is what you'll be dodging based on. And oftentimes, in these scenarios, it just barely hitting you can make all the difference.

My personal belief is they failed to adjust the skill back when the cast time was increased from ½ seconds to 3/4 seconds.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

in pvp i've noticed that walls are sometimes actually a couple feet smaller than they appear. for example if i try to kite around a 90 degree corner and i'm only 5 feet away from the edge, sometimes i can still get hit. the most egregious time walls fail is on djinns dominion on the point with the pillars, lol those pillars are worthless and basically only deter your character from walking thru them.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Examples?

As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through.

Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way.

Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken.

The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished.

Since you said "structures" I am assuming WvW? If so, yeah, LoS is so broken, hell, anet removed LoS from ranger LB #5 and it can be fired clear over unbroken walls and hit siege on supply huts inside the structure. While some other classes/skills hold to VERY strict LoS rules, heck, even autos from ranger LB can be like this, why anet has not leveled all skills to follow the same LoS rules I don't know and structures them selves in WvW are fairly glitchy.

As for dodging F1, it sounds more like timing, the changes in cast time and "time in flight" depending on how far the DH is from you, if you dodge right as they cast it at max 1,200 range, you are probably still going to get tagged, you need them to be 900 or so units away, like the video below and even then I waited a fraction of a second after he casts to dodge, but notice the "spear tip" as you put it is still far away from me at the time of dodging, and I dodge like this almost always when fighting a DH outside of max range or very close F1 use, as max range I wait a bit more before dodging, even still If I do get tagged it doesn't do much dmg and you still have time to use stab/stun break to stop the pull or let them pull if they didn't lay any traps. When dealing with full trapper builds I actually let them pull me so I can trigger the traps, stun break and dodge out as Maw will only hold you if you don't dodge the "bite", if you dodge this you are free without wasting stab.

About the 1:00 mark:

Nice example. The visual cue seems very inconsistent at times (compared to the "point of impact"). Now obviously you'll be watching for the throw animation; but when you're i.e. 1v2 and watching for other animations as well, sometimes the actual projectile is what you'll be dodging based on. And oftentimes, in these scenarios, it just barely hitting you can make all the difference.

My personal belief is they failed to adjust the skill back when the cast time was increased from ½ seconds to 3/4 seconds.

There can be skill lag that effects this, however it's rare and is the same for all skills and I have only really ever seen on EBG. 1vs2 is already going to be hard and is just a factor of limited mental resources, however in 1vs2 its best to keep a stun break handy vs trying to dodge it, you are wasting way to much mentally on it for that, wait for the tether that can be noticed with little awareness and once you do, know a pull is coming soon and when it does, wait for the traps to trigger, stun break and dodge right away like the video below, I knew this was coming as I saw the DH run out and figured he would come back. With that said, being all into a fight and having someone stealth in and drop all CDs on you, DH, thief, mes whatever and you are probably going to die anyway.

The big part is remembering it's a two part skill, dodging the tether in a 1vs1 is the best, however trying to dodge it in a 1vs2+ with all the visual clutter is not, save a stun break or stab for it.

[otto.5684]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@otto.5684 said:It was the way it is for over 5 years. Considering that it does literally no damage in pvp, has 0.75 sec cast time and has 40 sec CD on pull, not sure why it needs a nerf. Even if you could urge that condi DH is strong or over performing in spvp, the pull has almost nothing to do with that. Heck, power DH is garbage in spvp.

This is the sort of circular thinking that needs to stop.

I am not asking for a nerf, though. I am asking for people to

read the kitten OP.

I was more responding to the person who posted above me. And yes, spear has issues, good and bad. As you mentioned, it does sometimes hit through LoS. The pull part pulls through dodge. I have not seen the spear hit through dodge, but that does not mean it could not possibly bug out and do so. Sometimes it misses completely if the target is in close range. In addition, if it is the last hit on a target (pve here) it won’t reset with radiance.

Personally, I think it should not be unblockable. Also, fix the damned bugs.

[crazyhusky.2985]

@otto.5684 said:It was the way it is for over 5 years. Considering that it does literally no damage in pvp, has 0.75 sec cast time and has 40 sec CD on pull, not sure why it needs a nerf. Even if you could urge that condi DH is strong or over performing in spvp, the pull has almost nothing to do with that. Heck, power DH is garbage in spvp.

This is the sort of circular thinking that needs to stop.

Agreed.The pull doesn't do anything apart from pull foes to you. No boons or conditions or anything else.40 sec CD for just a pull is pretty outragous to be honest. 35 when using virtues line but thats a little too long in my view, 30 sec CD would be ok.

You have classes out there with better pulls like thief with Scorpion Wire that is an ammo skill with 20 recharge on its ammos, it does damage and is 1200 range.

Nercos have Spectral Grasp, which is a 1200 range pull, But on MULTIPLE targets not 1, shorter CD at 35, Chills which means reapers who use it can make it damage and reapers love to use this skill, futhermore it gives life force for each person pulled.