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FIX Ele dagger auto attack plz..........has infinite range and no line of sight

@Cynz.9437 said:You might be onto something here. The question is of course how can one make support/bunker killable without making them completely unviable. Maybe look at pressure they still manage to put out (cough scourge) and touch healing sources a bit.

@all bunkers: don't kill me but you can't possibly enjoy 2 bunker guards +2 support scourge vs 2 bunker guards + 2support sourges all season O_O (yes, i had such matches).

I play support and agree completely. Instead of removing yet more amulet variety from the game, focus more on the base healing effects on skills.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@felix.2386 said:yes, remove menders, shouldnt be able to do damage as support, literally kills roles in the pvp, people qq are the ones who cant play anything other then braindead builds thats carried by mender

The problem is though, that the alernatives that remain are Avatar's and Sage's. Meaning supports will do more damage and less healing. Meaning they won't be supports, they will be bruisers at that point. I fail to see how pushing supports towards bruiser amulets will restore roles in PvP my dude.

they are adding sigils that compensate out going healing loses for pure support class and that side noder should be more about damage and less about healing and supporting and sustaining.

i always think that they should just make a pure support amulet on top of removing mender, but i think we had that and it was too much healing. they probably had some stats limit they need to follow. if they remove power they need to ramp up healing/vitality for lose stats.

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@Justine.6351 said:

@Justine.6351 said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs.
no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year.

:/Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

SIGH. you keep on ignoring the obvious in favor of the gotcha narrative. listen. a lot of people liked the damage nerf, no one wants things to remain as they are now and no one predicted that anet would do so little within the larger meta. we've had long lasting metas but always enough smaller changes within those metas to shake things up. i think if anet continued that tendency of smaller incremental changes the game would be pretty decent right now, given the types of changes we've seen from cmc.

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I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

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That's how supposed to be, the game should always be balanced around a level where people know how to use the dodge button and bother to keep track of the enemy skillbar/build. Also it seems CMC taking into consideration the effort/reward ratio of a build before applying changes which are more good news for all us.As long as CMC keeps taking the forum "feedback" with a grain of salt and focus instead on tournament and win rate by profession, we will reach the most favourable version of balance...may be not ideal but certainly anything better than balance based on forum so called feedback

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:

  • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
  • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
  • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:
  • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
  • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
  • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

im gonna take a guess and say in WvW players dont have a fucking dodge button.The reason why pets have more health is due to inability to avoid damage, players CAN do it, pets CANT do it.In wvw both players and pets cant. If you focus rangers pet it will die really fucking fast to most builds, it dont change the fact that its not worth it to do so

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Sometimes builds are prevalent not because viability, but enjoy ability, I for one didn't play burn DH, or use pve raid greatsword in pvp, or use terrible spirit weapons, actually the heal I took solely for blindness had higher base damage than all the traps I was traited to use after the nerfs, and guardian still see's nerfs.Dragons maw was used for its (dodge able and block able)burst damage, the CC was irrelevant, and only came into play to allow us to auto attack chain someone after the nerfs, as now in pvp/wvw a thief can port in with burst damage, run away from the slow guardian to reset, and repeat as slow sustained damage can't kill a thief.Without porting traps, DH can only stand around camping traps, and if you consider them by the old definition of traps then why does siege, sentry poles, and other important objectives now trigger them removing the ability to use them as traps for players.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:
  • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
  • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
  • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

im gonna take a guess and say in WvW players dont have a kitten dodge button.The reason why pets have more health is due to inability to avoid damage, players CAN do it, pets CANT do it.In wvw both players and pets cant. If you focus rangers pet it will die really kitten fast to most builds, it dont change the fact that its not worth it to do so

But players can swap pets in this game and they return with full health, Soulbeasts having the ability to merge with their pet for the same effect (to a greater degree, soulbeasts can also revive dead pets just by clicking merge. In WoW, players have to go through a 3s channel to revive their dead pet.)

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Justine.6351 said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs.
no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year.

:/Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

SIGH. you keep on ignoring the obvious in favor of the gotcha narrative. listen. a lot of people liked the damage nerf, no one wants things to remain as they are now and no one predicted that anet would do so little within the larger meta. we've had long lasting metas but always enough smaller changes within those metas to shake things up. i think if anet continued that tendency of smaller incremental changes the game would be pretty decent right now, given the types of changes we've seen from cmc.

See you again next " balance patch" when you are still confused on how we got here and why nobody saw it coming.

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Why don't you Fix the downstate since that's your main problem, you can start by removing the ability to heal from fields while downed, on hit heal effects. and halving the amount of healing per pulse while being rez'd.

Or do you really believe people can go 200-0 seasons without abusing a poorly thought out mechanic?

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@Obtena.7952 said:I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

Meta means : highest reward for the least amount of effort, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

Meta means :
highest reward for the least amount of effort
, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

Yes, that's the 'interesting' part I'm talking about ... clearly in a game where meta ISN'T the balancing target in PVE, the idea they are even looking at it should be concerning because of how it will impact new content. Like always, I suspect that Anet has their own definition for what meta is, based on the language used in the OP; I'm sure many people will be bringing torches and pitchforks if we start seeing some contradictions in meta balancing efforts, even in PVP.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

Meta means :
highest reward for the least amount of effort
, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

Yes, that's the 'interesting' part I'm talking about ... clearly in a game where meta ISN'T the balancing target in PVE, the idea they are even looking at it should be concerning because of how it will impact new content. Like always, I suspect that Anet has their own definition for what meta is, based on the language used in the OP; I'm sure many people will be bringing torches and pitchforks if we start seeing some contradictions in meta balancing efforts, even in PVP.

Meta is definitely the balancing target in PvE! Heck they massacred ele with nerfs for years due to RAIDS, Dungeons :

-Icebow nerfs due to Dungeon-Fireweaver and Staff due to golem benchmarketc etc etc

And yes I can believe and expect people to be outraged if they nerf anything but meta, I would be one of those people taking up torches and pitchforks, that's how you balance your game....really try to keep it afloat for one more year. The most hilarious part though it's those people getting angry and the balance patches when they don't work in their favor.

Nerf spellbreaker...nerf mirage...nerf weaver...nerf ranger....nerf holosmith and suddenly you see 3 revs per team during an AT final...then they nerf the rev and :"oh now rev is dead...other professions are still OP though"..wtf?!

It's time for people to realize that the more you nerf your counter...the more nerfs you will receive after

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The changes definitely make a lot of sense this time (unlike the last round that hammered scrapper and left guard/rev intact) and the communication going with it is VERY MUCH appreciated. The lack of Scourge/Nec nerfs however is a massive gap in the balance and your tendency to first let things escalate before you have the "data" and then act is clearly shooting you in the foot here. The mAT final on EU was barely watchable yesterday due to essentially 4 menders/bunkers on each side, 2 of them being either Scourge or Minionmancer. And these builds are plagueing ranked more and more aswell.

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I've been gone awhile, but I always saw jokes about the game mode devolving to hitting people with sticksNow its not only getting there in terms of damage but the "remedy" to supports being stronger (from the lack of said damage) is to kill off support too?How did things end up going down such a strange route?

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@"Euthymias.7984" said:I've been gone awhile, but I always saw jokes about the game mode devolving to hitting people with sticksNow its not only getting there in terms of damage but the "remedy" to supports being stronger (from the lack of said damage) is to kill off support too?How did things end up going down such a strange route?

Because the game was powercrept before, so the obvious answer was to create the exact opposite situation, stripping away so much power that the bare basics such as:

  • Having functional traits
  • Having skills that perform their intended purpose
  • Having selectable stats that compliment the build you'd like to play

Have become OP to the point that they need to be brought in line with everything else that barely functions.

Naturally, if you criticize this gameplay direction, you just want to play functional broken builds that require zero skill.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

Meta means :
highest reward for the least amount of effort
, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

Meta is not the highest reward for least amount, meta is the strongest way to play, when pherald meta is, I bet 9/10 players fail to deliver a solid gameplay (I know there are many very good revs out there) but it's still pretty hard to play.

Tho in this bunker meta its probably true because bunker often doesn't need that much skill, especially if you can just facetank mostly everything

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi everyone,

Today’s update included a handful of PvP balance changes and we wanted to share some context behind the decisions we’ve made to the Guardian, Necromancer, and Revenant professions. At the very end of this post, we’ll also talk about areas we’re investigating for future updates.

Condition Guardian Variants

  • Permeating Wrath: Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
  • Eternal Armory: Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
  • Sword of Justice: Reduced ammunition count from 3 to 2 in PvP only. Increased cooldown between skill uses from 1 second to 5 seconds in PvP only.

Dragonhunter is the most prevalent version of condition Guardian, but Core also sees a fair amount of play with similar levels of success in the ranked environment. We’re starting with some adjustments to Permeating Wrath, Eternal Armory, and Sword of Justice to tone down the AoE burning pressure that both of these builds bring. Eternal Armory in particular is a trait that we’re evaluating for a game-wide functional change to better normalize the burning potential of all spirit weapons, but until then we’re reducing the duration to help mitigate the overperforming case with sword.

Rune of the Trapper is notably unscathed, but it’s high on our watchlist and depending on the impact of today’s changes it may see some adjustment in the future.

Minion Necromancer

  • Flesh of the Master: Reduced minion health bonus from 50% to 25% in PvP only.
  • Death Nova: Reduced power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.45 in PvP only.

We made some small adjustments to minion builds last month, and we’re making a couple more today to bring it more inline. While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. Minionmancer has also been overperforming in ranked for quite a while, and as condition Guardians get brought down in power level we want to make sure that players can keep enemy minions in check - so we’re shaving down their overall health and slightly reducing the punishment of killing them in melee range.

Support Core Guardian

  • "Stand Your Ground!": Increased cooldown from 45 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only.
  • Pure of Heart: Reduced heal scaling from 0.3 to 0.15 in PvP only.
  • Virtue of Resolve: Reduced heal scaling from 1.4 to 1.0 in PvP only.
  • Shield of Judgment: Reduced protection duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.

Last month we shaved down support Spellbreaker a bit more, which left Core Guardian as the premier support build in the meta. We consider the current state of Core Guardian overtuned relative to where we want support builds to be, and so we’re shaving a few pieces before looking at potential buffs to Tempest and Spellbreaker supports. Part of this decision is due to the general slowness of the meta right now, and as that shifts over time we’ll continue to evaluate the sweet spot for support builds.

Ventari Revenant

  • Energy Expulsion: Reduced knockback distance from 450 to 100 in PvP only.
  • Blinding Truths: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds in PvP only.
  • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

Ventari Revenant is getting a similar adjustment to its knockback that we made to ranger greatsword - maintaining its crowd control while reducing the decap threat. We’re also taking this opportunity to clean up a troublesome interaction between the low cooldown Ventari heal and Blinding Truths by adding an internal cooldown. Lastly, Surge of the Mists is getting a slight cooldown increase as a general defensive shave across all revenant builds. There are some additional concerns about the overall bulk and sustain of the build even outside of its decap potential - we’ll touch a little more on our plans there near the end of the post.

Shiro Renegade

  • Charged Mists: Reduced energy gain from 25 to 10 in PvP only.
  • Phase Traversal: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.
  • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

Renegade has continued to perform well after the changes to its might generation, and we’re making a few follow-up adjustments. Charged Mists stands out as the trait that enables a lot of Renegade’s most powerful sequences while generally breaking the expectations of Revenant energy costs, and we want to bring it down a bit before further evaluating other key pieces of the build. We were considering whether 10 or 15 energy was the right number (or even some unusual numbers in the middle like 12), but we leaned a bit on the heavier side here while not touching too much else. It’s a number that can come back up a little as we evaluate the impact and look at other potential changes. Phase Traversal is getting a slight cooldown increase to reduce both the chase potential and overall map mobility of both Renegade and Herald.

Power Herald

  • Infuse Light: Reduced duration of damage inversion effect from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
  • Phase Traversal: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.
  • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

In addition to the other general Revenant changes, Herald is also getting a minor adjustment to Infuse Light. Infuse Light is another case that we’re evaluating for a functional change, but in the meantime, we’re taking the opportunity to slightly reduce the duration as another shave to their defensive capabilities.We’re being a bit cautious with directly reducing Revenant damage (both here and with Renegade) while looking at speeding up the general pace of the meta.

Looking AheadThe thing most notably missing from today’s update is Scourge. When today’s changes were being finalized internally, Mender Scourge was starting to show some strong results in automated tournaments, but it wasn’t too widely played yet. There was some consideration to whether it warranted early adjustments, but we usually like to gather more data (including reviewing future win rate statistics and observing gameplay) before acting. Ultimately, we decided against rushing anything in for today. Given what we’ve seen since then, it’s something that we want to address sooner rather than later and we’re currently looking into some adjustments for the next release.

Something else that we’ve been evaluating is the state of Mender Amulet. The general pace of the game right now is slower than we’d like to see. Mender plays a big part in this, both through the strength of the bulkier support builds that have been meta recently (both Spellbreaker and now Core Guardian, compared to previous metas with Tempest) as well as the more sustain-oriented side node builds that tend to stalemate fights. The other main component of combat pacing is the amount of damage available. Looking back at something like pre-nerf grenade Holosmith, for all of the problems it had, it was very good at pushing damage and combating bunker play. We’re wary of bringing damage back up to that level and want to start with some adjustments to sustain before re-evaluating damage.

To that end, we’re looking at removing Mender and Marshal amulets and adding an improved version of Sigil of Transference (increased outgoing healing) to make up some of the healing loss for support builds. This would also include a few adjustments for healing sources that are most heavily impacted by this shift (notable among those are Selfless Daring and Elemental Bastion, as well as Call of Valor which does not benefit from transference). Overall, some sources would heal allies for a bit more and some would heal for a bit less than they do with Mender, but the self-healing of support builds would be lower. Side node builds that currently play Mender would also be pushed into Avatar amulet, hopefully resulting in fewer stalemates and increased kill potential. We still want dedicated support builds to be a viable choice, and we’d be keeping a close eye on the impact of these changes going forward, but we think that given the current state of the game Mender creates more problems than it solves and it's worth looking at.

That’s all for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in-game!

-The Systems Team

I just saw this and thought it was extremely funny. It is admission of failure on every level. “We removed all damage options from the game and it is now too bunkerish to the extent that people are playing decap builds.” Solution? Let’s nerf support builds and remove amulets. How did that work out in the past?

Btw, have you ever played guardian in pve? I dunno how to tell you this, but condi DH is not remotely viable. The fact that it is the prominent guardian build is condi DH using a fucking troll rune, says it all in terms of how much fucked the values damage and sustain in spvp are. How is this not a clear trigger that something is so fucking wrong in the game’s balance system?!

I want to be constructive, but a year after you burned the old spvp system to the ground, you are telling me the new system is not working well, and resulted in a slow ass bunkerish hell game play, which is exactly what veteran players told you will happen. And your solution is to do continue nerfing and removing things. Do you know the the definition of insanity?

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