Purity of Purpose should not convert chill into Alacrity.

[God.2708]

@Cal Cohen.2358

Now there's plenty to be said about Purity of Purpose, but I'm simply going to make a (hopefully) succinct argument about something that is easily and quickly changed (I think) with low boat rocking impact but fair effects.

Purity of Purpose converts chill into alacrity.Purity of Purpose converts immobilize into resistance.

Resistance and Edit: Alacrity are both corrupted into chill.

This cycle, combined with firebrands pulsing resistance fields, the occasional tempest trying to stay relevant with the frost auras they put out, and the inadvertent chill that comes with playing necro, herald, or weaver means scrappers can get their party up to a 20% uptime on alacrity (generally it sits more between 10-15%). This is quite silly for a boon that is both powerful, and not suppose to be available to scrappers.

Edit: For comparisons in standard WvW zerging, a good party will have ~80% protection uptime, ~20% resistance uptime, and ~50% vigor uptime.

I would advocate for changing it as a simple, easy hotfix nerf to purity of purpose that doesn't have smiters boon ICD nerfs with (probable) complex coding requirements.

• This makes support tempests modestly more viable as they are no longer buffing enemies that are using scrappers instead.
• This strengthens support chronos and renegades, both of which are on the cusp of usability as being a source of a rare boon.
• This weakens the niche scrappers have strangleholded without damaging their 'Purity of Purpose' support role they've carved out.
• This has no harmful side effects for roaming.
• If it is cross mode, I'm pretty sure it has zero impact on PvE and PvP.

I feel this is a fair request that is approximately at the level of attention WvW is currently being given.

[XenesisII.1540]

No, purity of purpose should be removed.Edit: or give up one dodge for it.

[Dawdler.8521]

Putting uptime of a boon that relies on the enemy hitting you with a specific condi on the same "bad" level as boons squirted out like candy from a pinata on classes that does it passively is silly.

AoE boons are broken. For every single class. Every single kitten boon. On every kitten skill that does 5+ things at once. Fix that before hunting down the alacrity portion of purity of purpose.

[Kovu.7560]

It's actually amusing, it's a meme with one of my guilds that it's no longer called chilling fog, it's the "free alacrity tactivator".Most people agree PoP is overtuned, but folks have different opinions on how PoP should be addressed. Personally I think the conversion into boons should only affect the Engi/Scrapper, but with increased durations on some of them. It would still be really powerful. Others have suggested a 1s icd which would be a bigger nerf IMO, with all of the cleansing that's being thrown around.

We'll see what happens.

~ Kovu

[XenesisII.1540]

It's not overestimated, it's a boon making machine in a zerg where conditions become nothing but food for it, while there's already plenty of ways to generate boons.I think there should just be more straight forward boon strips and cleanses than conversions/corruptions in the game.If it was self only even that would be acceptable just like the scourge feed from corruption trait.

Personally I want players to feel afraid to enter a bomb zone, you either double dodge through it, go around, or fake push, or ambush, or superspeed now I suppose, but when the bombing starts you need to react properly and get out of it and not just stand in it cause you think half your zerg will just heal cleanse stability everything without worry.

I understand losing stability is the biggest worry factor for players, why players hate corruption and strips and conditions in general, but I'm sure there's ways they could work around that, like maybe making it immune to strip or corruption, but this mass boon assembly line should have never happened.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The problem with PoP is partly due to protection cleansing a condition per application. Both those traits need CDs on them. They are too powerful without CDs. It doesn't even have to be large CDs, like 5s each would be balanced.

[Soilder.3607]

I think it would be fine with a 1 second ICD per ally so long as the boon durations are increased slightly to more closely match what they were before the competitive patch.

[God.2708]

@XenesisII.1540 said:It's not overestimated, it's a boon making machine in a zerg where conditions become nothing but food for it, while there's already plenty of ways to generate boons.I think there should just be more straight forward boon strips and cleanses than conversions/corruptions in the game.If it was self only even that would be acceptable just like the scourge feed from corruption trait.

Personally I want players to feel afraid to enter a bomb zone, you either double dodge through it, go around, or fake push, or ambush, or superspeed now I suppose, but when the bombing starts you need to react properly and get out of it and not just stand in it cause you think half your zerg will just heal cleanse stability everything without worry.

I understand losing stability is the biggest worry factor for players, why players hate corruption and strips and conditions in general, but I'm sure there's ways they could work around that, like maybe making it immune to strip or corruption, but this mass boon assembly line should have never happened.

Bringing a scrapper has an opportunity cost, IE you aren't putting something else in that slot. Believe it or not, PoP is scrappers only boon generation (Med kit 5, Defense field if you take bulwark gyro, and a lot of regeneration is all they have). Remove it and they don't generate boons at all. Now I'm sure some people would like that, but in terms of making the scrapper 'slot' more diverse in a party you just need to tweak it so natural boon generation from something like a tempest competes with the situational and inconsistent boon generation of a scrapper.

Scrapper isn't out here putting firebrand to shame with its boon output or anything. It simply complements the support firebrand brings by bringing everything firebrand can't (stealth, superspeed, and constant green number spam). If it was just about cleanses and boons people would take a second firebrand because, believe it or not, a firebrand can outcleanse a scrapper, and I can bet the boons it offers are worth way more than the random assortment PoP puts out.

To that end you'd want to weaken the odd unique things that scrapper encroaches on other supports with (like alacrity generation) and, in an ideal world, strengthen the unique things other side supports offer (like ele auras, or druid glyphs). But that requires more than one minor skill modification per patch.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The problem with PoP is partly due to protection cleansing a condition per application. Both those traits need CDs on them. They are too powerful without CDs. It doesn't even have to be large CDs, like 5s each would be balanced.

Vuln cleansing to protection creating a cycle is indeed a point of strength, but losing MDF is quite noticeable and I don't think is worth the trade off. If it really was a problem you'd just need an ICD on ACP of 3s to prevent something like e-gun 3 flipping a rapid fire into 10 condis cleansed instead of 5, which honestly seems bizarrely circumstantial enough that it's irrelevant.

[XenesisII.1540]

@God.2708 said:To that end you'd want to weaken the odd unique things that scrapper encroaches on other supports with (like alacrity generation) and, in an ideal world, strengthen the unique things other side supports offer (like ele auras, or druid glyphs). But that requires more than one minor skill modification per patch.

Sure like they did with mesmer stealth role that they took over, right? oh wait, mesmer just continued to get slammed with nerfs.Like healing, cleansing, boon converting, barrier, mass stealth, wasn't enough already for one class, I'm sure they'll do ok without the boon converting.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@God.2708 said:Scrapper isn't out here putting firebrand to shame with its boon output or anything.

i think you're greatly underestimating how scrappers stack. fb's ofc win when we're talking about the party as a whole, but when a few players are under condi pressure, all of a sudden instead of going down like they should they get stronger with the conversions. i can't think of any other trait that makes an entire damage type more hurtful for the person doing the damage. i guess maybe retal and reflects but still.

[God.2708]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@God.2708 said:Scrapper isn't out here putting firebrand to shame with its boon output or anything.

i think you're greatly underestimating how scrappers stack. fb's ofc win when we're talking about the party as a whole, but when a few players are under condi pressure, all of a sudden instead of going down like they should they get stronger with the conversions. i can't think of any other trait that makes an entire damage type more hurtful for the person doing the damage. i guess maybe retal and reflects but still.

You're going to have to explain yourself a bit more. Scrappers cleanse a whopping 1 condition a second on a player. It is not at all hard to completely overwhelm a scrappers cleanses if the scrapper is on its own for cleansing duty and the enemy is actually trying to condi them down instead of kill them with power damage and proxy soft CC conditions. (Fortunately FBs, scourges, and sometimes spellbreakers are all helping out).

Are you proposing that the RNG stab -> fear -> stab corrupt conversion cycle saves people? I mean, I'd agree with that but I'm not sure I'd agree that is overpowered. There's obvious counter play (Bring strips instead of corrupts for example). And would you really try to make the case that RNGing your allies survival is better than just popping a FB elite mantra stunbreak?

Though I worry about going off topic. I simply don't think PoP is the root issue people make it out to be. Scrappers are taken for their complementary nature to the core support of a zerg party(FB). PoP is just a bonus, and IMO the fact it gives alacrity in a noticeable amount makes scrapper harder to compete with than it should be for that complementary slot.

[Jski.6180]

Its about a feed back loop of cleaning a condi only to make you more able to clear more condis.

All high end boons should not be part of the conversion table only the base boons. At the same time high end condis should not be part of the corruption table only the base condis.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I hate how overly punishing it is. If you have two otherwise equal groups, but one gets a condi-spammer for free, the group that receives it will be disadvantaged due to PoP. It isn't cleanses that are overpowered. Even if you run plenty of cleanses, those conditions will still tick damage, reduce incoming damage, and hinder movement if but for a short time. PoP just doesn't remove condis, it then proceeds to compensate teammates for its loss. This creates a very perverse incentive, because now you have to look at all of the side-conditions that skills/traits have as a liability, and not an advantage.

I'm going to hop aboard the "make it only work on the engineer" train.

[Infusion.7149]

It's 1.5 seconds base duration. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_PurposeI could see cutting the base duration but if support keeps getting nerfed then you can just run more DPS scrappers, the cleanses/stealth won't change much if you run them as DPS.

Original post reads "Resistance and Immobilize are both corrupted into chill." I don't understand that as Immobilize is not even a boon. It's only resistance and alacrity that convert to chill. So unless you are gambling on boon to condition to boon (remember these are pulsing fields) that doesn't even make sense. Chopping the alacrity conversion duration ( to negligible such as 1/4 s if need be) would be easier for them as well since it is simply a number change.

[Tiilimon.6094]

I think the underlying problem is that people are playing the WvW gamemode very differently than what it was designed for, so mechanics such as this seem very effective as they are PBAOE and everyone, their mom and pets stand in a single spot.

That's why there's also so many complaints about AOE abilities in general, people simply stand too close together. If people played FPS games like this, everyone would complain about grenades instead of getting sniped.

:D

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@God.2708 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The problem with PoP is partly due to protection cleansing a condition per application. Both those traits need CDs on them. They are too powerful without CDs. It doesn't even have to be large CDs, like 5s each would be balanced.

Vuln cleansing to protection creating a cycle is indeed a point of strength, but losing MDF is quite noticeable and I don't think is worth the trade off. If it really was a problem you'd just need an ICD on ACP of 3s to prevent something like e-gun 3 flipping a rapid fire into 10 condis cleansed instead of 5, which honestly seems bizarrely circumstantial enough that it's irrelevant.

I'm not even talking about vuln->Protection feedback loop. You can build a scrapper that pumps out aoe protection that also ends up converting the conditions on them into boons.

PoP needs a CD, but it does not need a long one. ACP needs a CD, but it does not need a long one.

[Wyrdern.4092]

tbh given how much random vuln there is floating around id say the vuln>prot conversion is more problematic despite the relatively low duration (even when not running anti corrosion plating) given how strong protection is. Also the burning>aegis conversion probably leads to a lot of random blocks given how common burning is, even if not intentionally using it for damage (e.g. justice on power guard/support fb, random burning from dps weaver or even support tempest)

[bigo.9037]

it’s kinda crazy to me how this doesn’t have a longer icd? converting condis into boons should be a rare thing , like a utility. not a passive trait? i know it’s only 1/s but that’s still crazy.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@God.2708 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@God.2708 said:Scrapper isn't out here putting firebrand to shame with its boon output or anything.

i think you're greatly underestimating how scrappers stack. fb's ofc win when we're talking about the party as a whole, but when a few players are under condi pressure, all of a sudden instead of going down like they should they get stronger with the conversions. i can't think of any other trait that makes an entire damage type more hurtful for the person doing the damage. i guess maybe retal and reflects but still.

You're going to have to explain yourself a bit more. Scrappers cleanse a whopping 1 condition a second on a player. It is not at all hard to completely overwhelm a scrappers cleanses if the scrapper is on its own for cleansing duty and the enemy is actually trying to condi them down instead of kill them with power damage and proxy soft CC conditions. (Fortunately FBs, scourges, and sometimes spellbreakers are all helping out).

Are you proposing that the RNG stab -> fear -> stab corrupt conversion cycle saves people? I mean, I'd agree with that but I'm not sure I'd agree that is overpowered. There's obvious counter play (Bring strips instead of corrupts for example). And would you really try to make the case that RNGing your allies survival is better than just popping a FB elite mantra stunbreak?

Though I worry about going off topic. I simply don't think PoP is the root issue people make it out to be. Scrappers are taken for their complementary nature to the core support of a zerg party(FB). PoP is just a bonus, and IMO the fact it gives alacrity in a noticeable amount makes scrapper harder to compete with than it should be for that complementary slot.

scraps when stacked cleanse a lot more then 1 per second when multiple scraps are cleansing the same person. when your party is mostly clean except for one person and everyone elses party is the same within a 50 man zerg (assuming 1 scrap per party), then all those scrap cleanses stack on people loaded with condis due to how support shares within a squad. obviously this is a perfect storm type scenario and its not always like this, but i think it happens often enough when you consider everyone elses cleanses and those stacking as well. now i'm not saying stacking boon conversion makes someone who is gonna go down survive (assuming bad positioning), and i'm not sure if PoP is OP on its own, but when stacked in zergs its really strong and makes condi builds a buff to the enemy. superspeed makes the whole thing worse by negating soft cc being able to stretch out the zerg to punish stragglers. add on to that the boon rip nerf and things aren't looking good. honestly if boon rips were buffed and superspeed was toned down i don't think PoP would be that big of a problem. i wish most rips had protection high on the priority list tho as that would really help bombs.

[RisenHowl.2419]

PoP should be removed from the game entirely imo, it adds too much value to the entire group passively for a single trait

Not just in the boons applied, but because the frequency of application prevents strips/corrupts from being effective as boon removal tools. This wasn't an issue until all of the strips/corrupts were nerfed, now it's realistically impossible to strip a boon ball which has lead to the current meta

Scrapper's currently the best healer and the best cleanser, that doesn't change with the loss of PoP

[Dawdler.8521]

@bigo.9037 said:it’s kinda crazy to me how this doesn’t have a longer icd? converting condis into boons should be a rare thing , like a utility. not a passive trait? i know it’s only 1/s but that’s still crazy.It is, which is why its so silly that someone goes after one specific boon for one specific condi.

PoP should have a 10s icd at the very least. Much weaker traits have far higher icd. Hell I would even say 20s but that would probably feed Anets need to overnerf everything.

[God.2708]

@"Infusion.7149" said:It's 1.5 seconds base duration. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_PurposeI could see cutting the base duration but if support keeps getting nerfed then you can just run more DPS scrappers, the cleanses/stealth won't change much if you run them as DPS.

Original post reads "Resistance and Immobilize are both corrupted into chill." I don't understand that as Immobilize is not even a boon. It's only resistance and alacrity that convert to chill. So unless you are gambling on boon to condition to boon (remember these are pulsing fields) that doesn't even make sense. Chopping the alacrity conversion duration ( to negligible such as 1/4 s if need be) would be easier for them as well since it is simply a number change.

You are correct, mistyped. Meant for it to say 'Resistance and Alacrity'.

And yes, they are pulsing fields. The fact a very common encounter in WvW will be players being hit by wells of corruption whilst standing in Courage tome 4's means resistance is doing its job 'preventing' conditions from working but then being transformed into alacrity. It's not perfect, and I agree it is RNG, but it's enough that scrappers can maintain a 15-20% uptime on alacrity on the whole party, which I want to emphasize this as being strong as chronomancers can generally only maintain 40%ish on themselves assuming they aren't running and landing well of recall.

@bigo.9037 said:it’s kinda crazy to me how this doesn’t have a longer icd? converting condis into boons should be a rare thing , like a utility. not a passive trait? i know it’s only 1/s but that’s still crazy.

It's not that crazy to me when you consider that scrappers are basically applying no other boons aside from those. And boons get a bad rap here on the forums, but a boon a second on a player in the grand scheme of things is really not all that wild. A herald for example does that simply by turning on 2 facets. (Fury, swiftness, and might from shared empowerment, 3 boons every 3s). The more important note is the strength of said boons like alacrity (and I would sort of agree as vuln -> protection being remarkably strong for what it is as @salogel.1869 pointed out).

@Dawdler.8521 said:It is, which is why its so silly that someone goes after one specific boon for one specific condi.

PoP should have a 10s icd at the very least. Much weaker traits have far higher icd. Hell I would even say 20s but that would probably feed Anets need to overnerf everything.

This simply feels out of touch. I disagree and have not seen you present any stable arguments.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:scraps when stacked cleanse a lot more then 1 per second when multiple scraps are cleansing the same person. when your party is mostly clean except for one person and everyone elses party is the same within a 50 man zerg (assuming 1 scrap per party), then all those scrap cleanses stack on people loaded with condis due to how support shares within a squad. obviously this is a perfect storm type scenario and its not always like this, but i think it happens often enough when you consider everyone elses cleanses and those stacking as well. now i'm not saying stacking boon conversion makes someone who is gonna go down survive (assuming bad positioning), and i'm not sure if PoP is OP on its own, but when stacked in zergs its really strong and makes condi builds a buff to the enemy. superspeed makes the whole thing worse by negating soft cc being able to stretch out the zerg to punish stragglers. add on to that the boon rip nerf and things aren't looking good. honestly if boon rips were buffed and superspeed was toned down i don't think PoP would be that big of a problem. i wish most rips had protection high on the priority list tho as that would really help bombs.

Cross party cleansing is a factor. It's a remarkably hard one to track though. I sort of agree with your assessment here though, but I feel like the resulting end argument is as you said: PoP isn't that big of a problem, it's a variety of things that synergize with it and how fights play out.

My proposal is simply an attempt at tackling a fairly simple single effect of it because Anet has shown no interest in meaningful multi class balance for WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

@God.2708 said:This simply feels out of touch. I disagree and have not seen you present any stable arguments.No matter what I argue you would just constantly move the goalposts, but I am curious what's out of touch with internal cooldowns of 10+ seconds for something that gives a couple of seconds of a boon? They dont exist in the game or what?

[God.2708]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@God.2708 said:This simply feels out of touch. I disagree and have not seen you present any stable arguments.No matter what I argue you would just constantly move the goalposts, but I am curious what's out of touch with internal cooldowns of 10+ seconds for something that gives a couple of seconds of a boon? They dont exist in the game or what?

A clarification for what exactly you are proposing would be a great first step. But no, as a gm trait they generally don't. In the same traitline you have Invigorating speed which gives vigor every time you apply swiftness to yourself with a 10s ICD as an adept trait. Your proposal as read is horribly out of touch with grandmaster traits being build/role defining as ANET intended.

[Chaba.5410]

@bigo.9037 said:it’s kinda crazy to me how this doesn’t have a longer icd? converting condis into boons should be a rare thing , like a utility. not a passive trait? i know it’s only 1/s but that’s still crazy.

It's a Grandmaster trait. What do you expect out of such a trait? These are build-defining traits.