Why dose anet hate the ele class? (Wvw chat)

[Jski.6180]

Just that i am asking what the ele class did to get to where it was today? Was it realty from early wvw only or is there more to it.

There a lot of things wrong with the ele class and the risk reward is so badly balanced that your often only filling a stay away class to do reasonable dmg though staff or your melee with such bunker set up that it as if your not even use an wepon.

[Kodama.6453]

If I had to make a personal guess: The initial idea of elementalist to give them literally everything in every build with the attunement mechanic was flawed to begin with.

No matter what kind of build you create for elementalist, you will always get additional healing to the baseline healing skill because of water magic, you will always have many CC skills (earth and air), you will always have skills that make you tanky (earth), you will always have both power and condition damage options (fire and earth for condi, fire and air for power), etc.

A better idea back then would have been to make the elementalist pick attunements to equip, similar to the revenant who picks 2 of it's legends from an available pool. This would have put some more limit to what an ele can bring all at the same time and would have meant some opportunity cost in it's class mechanic.

With how it is designed right now, you literally can do everything a build can possibly do. You are just fine tuning what exactly of these you are doing best with your stats then.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It comes with Weaver, in 2017. In my in my memories Tempest had been in okai places, as support and dps, with some yoyo and awkward changes a patch to the next one, but okai anyway. It got nerfed progressively, likely like every other classes, before the expansion PoF. The air overload did less strikes, less damage per strike, less healing, stab/swiftenss no more in minor trait, etc.

Then arrives Weaver, and devs had no clue the mess they got into. Obviously all specs were a bit OP, like Holo, like Mirage with the free Breakstun, etc, but honestly Weaver was on top.Staff weaver did 45k/s on benchmarks. Mender Sword was able to win 1v3 alone in PvP. In WvW with celestial etc some weavers were just Gods among mortals. Etc, etc. Contrariwise, Core/Tempest was dead, you could not compete with new e-spec farting mights, quickness, protection ..., and not even with weaver.Devs started to think "Wow, weaver is too strong; how about nerf weaver, but also core/tempest in the same time, in all game modes !?" -Staff -Tempest Defense -riptide/ToF- -5% here and there, bonus stat, base and coefficients- double the CD - nerf 50% arcane skills - 300sec ICD in 3 traits...(My favorite is the lost of Fury in Fire and the "we delete stacks of mights when you swap attunement" )

By its own design Elem has may be the highest learning curve of the game, and disparity of levels in players, I confess Balance elem should not be easy; but they're doing it bad anyway.Since PoF, Weaver and Core/Tempest are yoying between too OP into the hands of very few players, and completly trash for all the players.

[Downstate.4697]

Ele got here because of overtuned specilizations and nerfing other traitlines as a result. They were one of the few classes that dished out regen and prot which was a staple to roaming and pvp. The low hp classes generally had more boon access but even as far as when HoT came out that uniquness was handed out to other places.

[Jski.6180]

Weaver is badly power creeped for sure but why anet hit core ele and tempest so hard because of that is beyond me other then showing they hate ele as a class.

The old ele balance for being a gen. class was its wepon had all of the utility and the ele utility set was often far weaker then other classes. This makes ele a very much combat locked type of class but with out any means of augmenting it type of combat (no wepon swaps or kits and conja weapons are just plan bad).

It all feels lacking of a good reason from the get go as every class did every thing already it just took a few utitily to even them out. Ontop of that the ele class is missing key effects that you do find other classes like boon strip, condi conversion, strong boons, mass condi dmg, unblockable dmg, and realy any thing that makes it feel like a class of its own.

There has got to be a "good" reason for there mind set on ele. It can do every thing but so can every other class. So unless anet is in some kind of self denial state (which would mean death to gw2 over all and maybe anet as well) what else is there?

They do seem to go to a lot of meetings at one point you saw them complement about them on there steams (when they still did steams) but what where they doing at these meetings anet was a newish group of making a game but they often just act like an old businesses thinking others should just deal with there choose more then actively listening to there players. The meetings seems more of a means to reassure them self that they are doing a good job making a bubble of ideals. That meme of throwing a person out of the building because they suggest an ideal but missing that throwing out that person is only an act of making them self feel better about there own ideals as that person thrown out IS still part of the bubble them self.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Jski.6180" said:Weaver is badly power creeped for sure but why anet hit core ele and tempest so hard because of that is beyond me other then showing they hate ele as a class.

You are getting too emotional here, Anet has no reason to "hate" any class. Devs don't look at a class and think "I don't like how they throw fireballs, let's nerf them!".

The old ele balance for being a gen. class was its wepon had all of the utility and the ele utility set was often far weaker then other classes. This makes ele a very much combat locked type of class but with out any means of augmenting it type of combat (no wepon swaps or kits and conja weapons are just plan bad).

The problem, in my opinion, is that ele gets too much utility at all times. But we will get to that in a bit.

It all feels lacking of a good reason from the get go as every class did every thing already it just took a few utitily to even them out. Ontop of that the ele class is missing key effects that you do find other classes like boon strip, condi conversion, strong boons, mass condi dmg, unblockable dmg, and realy any thing that makes it feel like a class of its own.

There has got to be a "good" reason for there mind set on ele. It can do every thing but so can every other class. So unless anet is in some kind of self denial state (which would mean death to gw2 over all and maybe anet as well) what else is there?

Now here is the thing: yes, other classes can do them all. But this comes all with an opportunity cost, if I slot in utility skills to improve my survivability or ability to heal allies, this is a utility slot I don't spend on something else, like damage.

Elementalist gets to do everything a build could possibly do (tank, heal allies, deal condi damage, deal power damage, CC, ...) by default.You get all of these effects without having to spend utility slots or traits, since these are all already integrated in the attunement system.

Let's give an example: we are creating 2 builds which we are completely dedicating to damage (for example for raids and such), one for engineer and one for elementalist.An engineer will take the common power holo build: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/holosmith/power/Elementalist takes the power weaver build: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/power/

The engineer build is truly dedicated to damage. All the utility skills taken are focusing on damage and provide almost nothing else (just some little CC like the chill from the grenade and the launch from the elite). No abilities to let them tank hits, no healing for allies, etc.

The elementalist build on the other hand, even if the build is supposed to be truly dedicated to damage, still has alot of utility put in.Tons of healing for yourself and allies in water magic. Lots of CC. Condi cleanse for you and allies alike. Still dishing out tons of condi damage, while being dedicated to power damage.

This build is meant to be dedicated to damage alone, yet it still pumps out healing for allies. Which other class does that? If you dedicate yourself to damage, then these classes usually do damage and don't heal their allies inevitably at the same time.And this lack of true dedication is the problem in my eyes. No matter what you want to do with your build, you always get everything.

[Esquilax.3491]

I still can't believe they bothered to make all those underwater skills for weaver, what a gigantic waste of dev time...

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Weaver is badly power creeped for sure but why anet hit core ele and tempest so hard because of that is beyond me other then showing they hate ele as a class.

You are getting too emotional here, Anet has no reason to "hate" any class. Devs don't look at a class and think "I don't like how they throw fireballs, let's nerf them!".

The old ele balance for being a gen. class was its wepon had all of the utility and the ele utility set was often far weaker then other classes. This makes ele a very much combat locked type of class but with out any means of augmenting it type of combat (no wepon swaps or kits and conja weapons are just plan bad).

The problem, in my opinion, is that ele gets

too much utility at all times

. But we will get to that in a bit.

It all feels lacking of a good reason from the get go as every class did every thing already it just took a few utitily to even them out. Ontop of that the ele class is missing key effects that you do find other classes like boon strip, condi conversion, strong boons, mass condi dmg, unblockable dmg, and realy any thing that makes it feel like a class of its own.

There has got to be a "good" reason for there mind set on ele. It can do every thing but so can every other class. So unless anet is in some kind of self denial state (which would mean death to gw2 over all and maybe anet as well) what else is there?

Now here is the thing: yes, other classes can do them all. But this comes all with an opportunity cost, if I slot in utility skills to improve my survivability or ability to heal allies, this is a utility slot I don't spend on something else, like damage.

Elementalist gets to do everything a build could possibly do (tank, heal allies, deal condi damage, deal power damage, CC, ...)

by default

.You get all of these effects without having to spend utility slots or traits, since these are all already integrated in the attunement system.

Let's give an example: we are creating 2 builds which we are completely dedicating to damage (for example for raids and such), one for engineer and one for elementalist.An engineer will take the common power holo build:

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/holosmith/power/

Elementalist takes the power weaver build:

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/power/

The engineer build is truly dedicated to damage. All the utility skills taken are focusing on damage and provide almost nothing else (just some little CC like the chill from the grenade and the launch from the elite). No abilities to let them tank hits, no healing for allies, etc.

The elementalist build on the other hand, even if the build is

supposed

to be truly dedicated to damage, still has alot of utility put in.Tons of healing for yourself and allies in water magic. Lots of CC. Condi cleanse for you and allies alike. Still dishing out tons of condi damage, while being dedicated to power damage.

This build is meant to be dedicated to damage alone, yet it still pumps out healing for allies. Which other class does that? If you dedicate yourself to damage, then these classes usually do damage and don't heal their allies inevitably at the same time.And this lack of true dedication is the problem in my eyes. No matter what you want to do with your build, you

always get everything

.

Sorry, but none of this is accurate. There is no ele DPS build that can also heal effectively. Rotating to water is an opportunity cost. It prevents you from accessing your damaging skills and the healing provided by a DPS build is negligible outside of solo play. Take a look at the DPS rotation for power sword weaver on metabattle. Do you see any water attunement there?

Lots of CC? Where? Ele doesn't have more or better CC than most classes. It just has to pay a higher opportunity to cost to access it. The problem with ele is, in fact, the opposite of what you're saying it is. It's as if the class is designed to function as you describe, but has been nerfed so hard that it can't actually do any more than any other class laser-focusing on a specific role.

In my opinion, if I'm going to have hybrid damage on my weapons, I should have the ability to take advantage of that to increase my damage output. As it stands, that isn't a thing. Condi builds gain a negligible amount of damage from power stats that is only really worth anything with group support and power can't deal any significant condition damage at all.

If I'm going to be forced to rotate through multiple attunements including attunements that cause me to give up my damage output just to access CC, then my class should have more and stronger CC than other classes that don't share this limitation.

[Mega.5791]

Weaver was never more than semi-viable in PVP until the rise of fire weaver.

The healing capabilities are far behind holo, revenant, guard when not using healing amulets.

Weaver is a completely egoistic spec with abrely any support capabilities.

The problem is not weaver. Core ele became completely useless after the introduction of tempest, there was nothing tempest was not better at (or, well, not when regarding the major other advantages tempest got). FA core ele was dead with HoT. D/D was useless since then. PoF gave elementalist a proper side noder role again, but I agree, they are very quick to nerf weaver when other classes get a very long free pass.

There is a weaver on a mAT? Nerf it! There is a team of 5 revenants winning mAT? Well, maybe we might consider some minor adjustments... I doubt they actively "hate" elementalist, but it feels like some serious bias indeed.

€: Only talking about PVP here.

[Kodama.6453]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Sorry, but none of this is accurate. There is no ele DPS build that can also heal effectively. Rotating to water is an opportunity cost. It prevents you from accessing your damaging skills and the healing provided by a DPS build is negligible outside of solo play. Take a look at the DPS rotation for power sword weaver on metabattle. Do you see any water attunement there?

I never said that healing is part of the rotation. I am saying that even in the dps build, skills which are healing are available for you.It's about versatility. Yes, switching to water magic and using these skills will make your dps shrink. But in case of emergency, if it is really needed, there is the option.This option is not available for other dps builds, since other classes would have to actively chose skills to do this. If engineer wants to have the option to heal their allies, for example, they need to slot in skills like med kit, elixir gun, etc.

This is the opportunity cost. I am building myself to do a specific task. However, this is not how elementalist works. Because of all 4 attunements being always available, all these tools like group healing, defense, power damage, condition damage, etc. are always available in every build, no matter if you actually build for it or not.Elementalist is therefore truly the "jack of all trades, master of none" by design, because they can't legit exclude any of these things from their build, even if they tried.

Lots of CC? Where? Ele doesn't have more or better CC than most classes. It just has to pay a higher opportunity to cost to access it. The problem with ele is, in fact, the opposite of what you're saying it is. It's as if the class is designed to function as you describe, but has been nerfed so hard that it can't actually do any more than any other class laser-focusing on a specific role.

I didn't say that they have better CC than other classes or anything like that. I said that every elementalist build naturally always has several hard CC spells in the kit without investing anything to achieve this, simply because all the weapons come with CC spells in at least one of their 4 attunements.

If I'm going to be forced to rotate through multiple attunements including attunements that cause me to give up my damage output just to access CC, then my class should have more and stronger CC than other classes that don't share this limitation.

Disagreed, for the simple fact that you get access to all these tools without dedicating utility slots or even weapons to them at all.If other classes want CC, they make active choices. Like a warrior picking hammer or some of their physical/rage skills.Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is not a single weapon combination for elementalist which doesn't have hard CC in the kit.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Okay. Now show me where that works in practice. It doesn't. Jack of all trades is not a thing.

Also, CC on weapons is "paid for" by no weapon swap.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Slight correction; in my memories Weaver had already strong builds (mender water/arcane, fresh air ...) before FireweaverBut Mender Sword was not a dangerous class to fight, it was really damaging for the team, for the tickets, because it could hold a cap 1v3 indefinitely but not for players, you didn't die of a mender sword. Players complained more about Fireweaver because they died in 2sec, and dying is more annoying for them than just lose the match because you can't hold the ground.Fireweaver already had a lot of constraints and counters, a lot more than Mender Sword: players just looked at the fact it could burst down someone very fast they didn't care if it was balanced or not.

But yeah, to me it seems there is double standard.They nerfed Core to low weaver, rather than nerf weaver itself, plus they nerfed too much all aspects of the classwithout looking it with the general view. _"Weaver, too strong; a perfect balance of healing, power and condi dps, cc, stab, kiting. Hmm, I could correct one asset to balance the spec .... No, better nerf all assets one by one."While you see ridiculous nerfs and spread over time on others specs.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Sorry, but none of this is accurate. There is no ele DPS build that can also heal effectively. Rotating to water is an opportunity cost. It prevents you from accessing your damaging skills and the healing provided by a DPS build is negligible outside of solo play. Take a look at the DPS rotation for power sword weaver on metabattle. Do you see any water attunement there?

I never said that healing is part of the rotation. I am saying that even in the dps build,

skills which are healing are available for you

.It's about versatility. Yes, switching to water magic and using these skills will make your dps shrink. But in case of emergency, if it is really needed, there is the option.This option is not available for other dps builds, since other classes would have to

actively chose skills to do this

. If engineer wants to have the option to heal their allies, for example, they need to slot in skills like med kit, elixir gun, etc.

This is the opportunity cost. I am building myself to do a specific task. However, this is not how elementalist works. Because of all 4 attunements being always available, all these tools like group healing, defense, power damage, condition damage, etc. are always available in every build, no matter if you actually build for it or not.Elementalist is therefore truly the "jack of all trades, master of none" by design, because they

can't

legit exclude any of these things from their build, even if they tried.

Lots of CC? Where? Ele doesn't have more or better CC than most classes. It just has to pay a higher opportunity to cost to access it. The problem with ele is, in fact, the opposite of what you're saying it is. It's as if the class is designed to function as you describe, but has been nerfed so hard that it can't actually do any more than any other class laser-focusing on a specific role.

I didn't say that they have better CC than other classes or anything like that. I said that every elementalist build naturally always has several hard CC spells in the kit without investing anything to achieve this, simply because all the weapons come with CC spells in at least one of their 4 attunements.

If I'm going to be forced to rotate through multiple attunements including attunements that cause me to give up my damage output just to access CC, then my class should have more and stronger CC than other classes that don't share this limitation.

Disagreed, for the simple fact that you get access to all these tools without dedicating utility slots or even weapons to them at all.If other classes want CC, they make active choices. Like a warrior picking hammer or some of their physical/rage skills.Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is not a single weapon combination for elementalist which doesn't have hard CC in the kit.

Where is the opportunity cost for specs like : scourge -holosmith -scrapper -firebrand -spellbreaker -heck even soulbeast and a renegade can offer the same level of support a dps ele with water line can offer....actually much better support while not losing in dps or sustain

You can run a condition barrier spammer with condi strip and conversion scourge....where does the opportunity cost come from?You can run a dps firebrand with shared stability, resistance, heal and condi clear........where does the opportunity cost come from?

I could go on and on but you get my point

I don't remember ele gaining any CC by simply swapping attunements , we equip weapons just like the rest and.....ele has like 3-4 usable weapon sets so it's logical that overall we have CC on all of them where a warrior can choose different weapon combinations. What do you even mean with your point? FoR hard CC ele needs to equip weapons just like the rest....that's an active choice

[Kodama.6453]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

Where is the opportunity cost for specs like : scourge -holosmith -scrapper -firebrand -spellbreaker -heck even soulbeast and a renegade can offer the same level of support a dps ele with water line can offer....actually much better support while not losing in dps or sustain

You can run a condition barrier spammer with condi strip and conversion scourge....where does the opportunity cost come from?You can run a dps firebrand with shared stability, resistance, heal and condi clear........where does the opportunity cost come from?

I could go on and on but you get my point

I don't remember ele gaining any CC by simply swapping attunements , we equip weapons just like the rest and.....ele has like 3-4 usable weapon sets so it's logical that overall we have CC on all of them where a warrior can choose different weapon combinations. What do you even mean with your point? FoR hard CC ele needs to equip weapons just like the rest....that's an active choice

What I mean with that is that literally all weapon combinations of elementalist always consist of all of these features: power damage, condition damage, AoE healing, additional tankiness, hard CC.

And this is not the case with the weapon choices of other classes. Other classes have weapons dedicated to some of these, but not all at the same time. A hammer warrior does have power damage and CC, but no defensive skills on hammer, no condition damage, no group healing.If I pick double pistols on my engineer, I get condition damage and some CC (counting the immob on pistol 5 here), but no inherent tankiness, power damage, group healing.

Can you name me one single weapon combination from elementalist which doesn't offer all of the features I mentioned?This is the opportunity cost I talk about. Sure, elementalist makes an active choice for their weapon. But they can not actively chose to trade one thing for another, like giving up having hard CC in their kit for group healing for example. Because all their weapons have all of these features.

And having a small arsenal of weapons to chose from is not really an argument in my opinion. Engineer has an even smaller pool to pick from and their weapons are more dedicated to their playstyles.

[WindBlade.8749]

There is a reason that elementalist is the only class to be meta in no gamemode at all even in niches, there is only a really handful of place where it's good and it's take so much pratice to do as much as the others while still being squishy and depending on the others.

Ele is not versatile, it's an illusion, if you want to do a thing you need to sacrifice everything to reach the same lvl as the other who still have others stuff they can do, and you're heavely punished if you try to do another thing that what you specialized for, sure healing when you're dps should shrink your damage, but on ele it's really abysal what you loose when you switch to another atunnement.And all of that while being a glass that do as much damage as others class that have sustain/utilities....

Ele is greedy, share nothing, die like no one, harder to play and have less things than others class. It's viable ? in pve for sure, do it's have any advantage to itself ? no, if you play it it's just mean you love the class.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Ele traitlines are largely to blame.

Arcane is pretty much mandatory on every build. If you dont take arcane you lose out on way too much sustain and defense.Fire is only good on condi builds. The GM traits are way to unreliable on power builds and there isnt really any reason to take fire over air.Air is good for FA and LR builds. The problem is LR is meant to be a teamfighter/roamer/duelist depending on if you use sword or dagger, but LR gets shut down in teamfights if there are supports with lots of boons, or lots of aoe chill/weakness/blind. Additionally LR is weak vs condi and heavy cc, so it doesnt have a lot of good 1v1 matchups and it cant survive +1s very well. FA is good, but it gets hard countered by other roamers.Water is a niche support traitline, mainly for aura share on tempest.Earth is pretty bad. Stone heart is strong but gimmicky, and most of the traits arent very good.

So basically you are forced into taking arcane, provide no group support unless you take water, power builds are restricted to 2 playstyles with FA or LR, and condi has 1 viable build with weaver. A lot of the traitlines feel very outdated with many traits being pretty useless in pvp, or only being useful for one very specific role.

[Dawdler.8521]

Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

[Wyrdern.4092]

Yet in larger scale WvW you see less Tempest because Scrapper exists and Tempest can't really replace it because PoP and stealth gyro. Tempest support isn't bad in zergplay, there's just limited slots in WvW squad comps. The first 2 slots are taken by Firebrand and Scrapper, and if you are running a third support per party its probably going to be a support Spellbreaker or Chrono because at that point more cleanses are probably overkill (and might actually reduce your boon uptime by stealing cleanses from the scrapper).

[supreme.3602]

@salogel.1869 said:Yet in larger scale WvW you see less Tempest because Scrapper exists and Tempest can't really replace it because PoP and stealth gyro. Tempest support isn't bad in zergplay, there's just limited slots in WvW squad comps. The first 2 slots are taken by Firebrand and Scrapper, and if you are running a third support per party its probably going to be a support Spellbreaker or Chrono because at that point more cleanses are probably overkill (and might actually reduce your boon uptime by stealing cleanses from the scrapper).

100% the truth. This is basically one of the main reasons why I switched from Elementalist to Scrapper full-time. The class is just a joke now.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

It sounds like you are rolling tempest support, dagger LR weaver, and fire weaver into one mega build. I don't know of any ele build that has all of these strengths at once.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The 10-men healer tempest WAS popular, but look at it now : shouts no longer to 10 players, overload water no longer to 10 players. Tempest isn't "popular" anymore.The reason your could be useful in small, tanky, guild raids : spread choking and frost* aura. You also have range for cleanse/heals/boons, that Scrappers or FB don't have, which is really appraciated; you have soothing mist for a second regen; but Tempest isn't non- interchangeable; you can easily replace it with FB, scrapper, Revenant,... for retaliation, resistance, stab, quickness, alacrity, great dwarf, taunt, pulls, superspeed, stealth...and somewhere you want at least one of them.

This isn't true Tempest is popular, no one asking particulary for Tempest, on contrary; it's just okai, playable with a niche frost/chock aura gimmick. But it's okai; it as better than nothing. You like tempest, play tempest. you can find a spot.

About the "immortal" tempest. It comes from the gear. A minstrel FB or Scrapper, a trailblazer revenant, necro, mirage ... are equally Cancers. I don't think tempest is somewhere higher or something.

[Arheundel.6451]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

It sounds like you are rolling tempest support, dagger LR weaver, and fire weaver into one mega build. I don't know of any ele build that has all of these strengths at once.

There are good players who make it work to such an extent but again I don't expect players to recognize a better player and it's much easier to blame balance and whatsnot

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSQAEhVAOsWntdA-zVIYfUwfCKeA-w

You can't do this on ele...a trait giving out 40% crit dmg.....another giving out 35% crit chance...just press F1 and spin to win....crazy build..but possible, I'd be you...I'd go back to the necro forum and don't come back here

Next time I may show how I tank focus dmg by simply pressing F1 on a necro...no need to be minstrel...no need for food or other gimmicks....I just press F1...

Go now....

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgEgE6ZP5u0A-w

What are condis? I don't need to double tap on that fire aura or water overload or else....I just press F1...I press a button and go ultra instinct..

[Jski.6180]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Meanwhile in the real world of WvW, eles are more popular than ever in smallscale, they can carry other players with ease due to their AoE support, they are near immortal vs condi, they do absurd amounts of damage at equally absurd amounts of self sustain and they seem to be able to CC you about every 2s to the point I see them running full lockdown support builds just for another dps to kill while they keep chaining stuns.

But I guess we can rank them up there with the worst off classes together with the thief thats the worst duelist, guardians that cant survive anything, warriors that have no mobility and rangers that have no ranged damage.

That the odd thing i do not understand why you would ever use a tempest over a scraper even in the small scale as every thing scraper dose is just as strong in the small scale has its is in the large scale. If any thing scraper can go full dps and still support in the small scale tempest MUST go full bunker in the small scale and large scale and over all dose less in both.