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A necessary improvement in preparation for the Legendary Armory


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@Firebeard.1746 said:It occurred to me that as it stands for legendaries, outside of legendary weapons, there's a lot of requiring people to invest very hard into particular game types for the given legendary.

The good thing is: you don't need to have every item being of legendary rarity, nor will the use of the Legendary Armory require you to have 100% legendary equipment (if it will that would be downright ridiculous). I assume it will be just another equipment storage that will be accessible accountwide.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary.

You are not arguing with the thread however. You are arguing with people that tell you that this may not be strictly necessary, but still nice to have. And your response is "but you should not get it, because I 'm not interested in it"

I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute.And here is the core of the issue i have with your argumentation.
You
don't need it, therefore noone shall have it.Frankly, if it's just about you not needing it, why do you care if the alternate option is made or not? Would introducing it hurt you in any way?

Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?The "old school" hardcore players that view and value something that should be first and foremost fun and entertaining solely by how much effort they need to put in it (regardless if that work even makes sense), and treat it as a second job, are a minority now. In fact, i don't think they were in a majority even during those "old times" either - there always were casuals, and they always outnumbered the hardcores. The only change since then is that the ratio got even more skewed towards casual players now.

It doesn't matter if something is "worth putting the work to get it" or not, if the work itself makes no sense. People should be playing raids because they like that type of content. Not because they have been paid off for it. It's not a job, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?You don't know. Just as you don't know how many people
stopped
playing/buying stuff due to burnout that came from farming for something they wanted in a content they hated. I do know that it worked like that for me and a number of people i know, at least.

Remember, though, that ultimately Anet ended up considering raids to not be a good return for effort put, since they cancelled them.

Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it". It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?

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They could make lengthy PvE achievements similar ot the ones for the trinkets from the living world stories (Aurora, Visions) for the armor maybe. But for stuff that actually needs you to play more than 1 game mode I do not expect any changes. (+ the PvE part here is not too hard and more like a grind I think).

I think it is for the weapons - where they are expensive (I do not have one yet) and need you to play more than just PvE. (But at least for certain PvE stuff ... if it needs dungeon currency for some gift ... there are the vouchers you easily can get from festival events.)

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@"robertthebard.8150" said:Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it".More like "i think that Raids were a really bad place to content-lock it, so we might as well try to fix it"

And i have already gotten mine, thank you very much. I still think alternate path is a very good idea, and that limiting it to an extremely niche content most pve players will never touch was a really bad one.

There's no point in defending status quo if that status quo is not so good in the first place. And doing that without consideration only stifles progress and improvement.

It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?Raiding is about as much the same type of content as the majority of GW2's PvE as WvW is the same type of content that SPvP is. WvW and SPvP are the same mode (PvP), but are treated like two different ones, because they appeal to different groups of players. Same with Raids and the majority of GW2's PvE - you might call them the same mode, but in truth they are quite separated. With the difference being that WvW and SPvP are probably comparable in size, while Raids are a very narrow niche.

But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it".More like "i think that Raids were a really bad place to content-lock it, so we might as well try to fix it"

And i have already gotten mine, thank you very much. I still think alternate path is a very good idea, and that limiting it to an extremely niche content most pve players will never touch was a really bad one.

There's no point in defending status quo if that status quo is not so good in the first place. And doing that without consideration only stifles progress and improvement.

It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?Raiding is about as much the same type of content as the majority of GW2's PvE as WvW is the same type of content that SPvP is. WvW and SPvP are the same mode (PvP), but are treated like two different ones, because they appeal to different groups of players. Same with Raids and the majority of GW2's PvE - you might call them the same mode, but in truth they are quite separated. With the difference being that WvW and SPvP are probably comparable in size, while Raids are a very narrow niche.

But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)... You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)...

So, US Congress in your mind
is
the Congress of the World? Why i am not surprised...

You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

To be fair I don't recall much of fractal involvement in my Flameseeker Prophecies craft I did recently... there were like 3 or 4 of them needed but only because I decided to craft the precursor instead of flat out buying one. Is that some gen2 thing? ;)

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:To be fair I don't recall much of fractal involvement in my Flameseeker Prophecies craft I did recently... there were like 3 or 4 of them needed but only because I decided to craft the precursor instead of flat out buying one. Is that some gen2 thing? ;)Like you said - it's when you want to craft the precursor instead of buying it. And gen2 precursors cannot be bought or dropped.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)...

So, US Congress in your mind
is
the Congress of the World? Why i am not surprised...

You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

I see...

I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

I see...

I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.Then apparently our experiences were different in this case. Also, you might want to reread what i said, because you obviously didn't base that sentence i was responding to on any statement of mine. You were basing it on your
unfounded and untrue assumptions
of me.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

I see...

I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.Then apparently our experiences were different in this case. Also, you might want to reread what i said, because you obviously didn't base that sentence i was responding to on any statement of mine. You were basing it on your
unfounded and untrue assumptions
of me.

Well, considering your comment about my believing that the US Congress is the Congress of the world, it would be really easy to "misinterpret" what you said. But let's see, "Raids are PvE just like WvW is PvP". Hmm, I wonder, how could I misinterpret that? Since raids are very literally players versus the environment, claiming they're not really PvE is pretty hard to misinterpret as well. Maybe you meant that I misinterpreted your "we don't need the gear for any content"? So you meant what, exactly, if it's not a literal translation of "we don't need it"? Seems like that would be pretty hard to misinterpret too. So no, I don't think I misinterpreted anything you said. I think it's a pretty convenient argument for "well, I shouldn't have said that" though. You see, I'm not making any judgement calls on you. I'm reading what you type, and responding to it. No assumptions needed, and the one time I typed something that could be assumed to be an assumption, was asking a direct question, which means that I didn't know the answer, and didn't assume one. So again, not sure what you're on about, unless it's frustration that you can't persuade me around to your way of thinking.

As I've said, if we were locked out of story content for lack of this gear, then there's something that needs to be fixed. Now, you have stated that we don't need the gear for that, and I agree, we don't, and I know it to be true because I play the content w/out it, so I can't be confusing anything there either. What you're lobbying for is desired, but it is not necessary, contrary to the thread's intent, and what you're trying to push here.

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I don't understand the topic. I see WvW mentioned a lot but don't see it as a grind--I'm only rank 800 and a couple hundred ranks before that (rank 5-600) I had enough skirmish tickets and such for a full set of legendary armor. But I enjoy the mode, and do lament it has a worse skin than raids--I don't even use the skin at all.

I find PvE more of a grind, have to play hours of story missions to get a chance at some basic stuff like ascended mat eaters. Not only that but have to finish some grueling tasks (i.e. chalice of tears) which WvW has no equivalent to. Add in all the mastery tracks you need to grind out to do anything (i.e. gliding / mounts) and it's a big time investment.

But, I don't see why you need any of it anyway though, outside of the 'hardcore' content of raids and fractals. If you are doing those you probably enjoy them (like I do WvW) and aren't here complaining about it. Open world stuff has been runnable by literally any stat combo since the game launched--any hard events you have an entire mob to carry you.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Sure.Thanks.

I pointed out that it was a big assumption, considering that threads about legendary gear and problems some people have with them pop up on those forums on a regular basis. Thus, the response can only be to point out that big "If" on which your statement hinges on.There are certainly people who have one issue or another with the legendary items in gw2. No matter which subject you pick you will always find someone who has a problem with it. As such I would not suggest to use that as a metric. Do the developers consider the system to be flawed? Is fixing it a high priority?In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.Of course legendary gear isn't perfect, almost nothing is. The current system is fine, it is functional, it does what it is supposed to do. Please name the problems, explain why they are problems and how some were solved.

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@Katary.7096 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.Of course legendary gear isn't perfect, almost nothing is. The current system is fine, it is functional, it does what it is supposed to do. Please name the problems, explain why they are problems and how some were solved.First problem that surfaced was the stat issue - originally, legendaries had fixed stats, and to change them you had to transmute the looks of the legendary on an exotic item with the right stats (which destroyed the legendary in the process). The legendary destruction during transmutation issue has been fixed with the wardrobe system, and the stat issue with the stat-switching QoL feature on legendaries.

Second problem that was addressed was the precursor availability. People didn't like that there wasn't really any reliable way of obtaining precursors with their own effort. You could only either hope for RNG to smile your way, or bypass the whole system via buying one off TP. Thus, the precursor crafting system was made.

Another of the original issues was about people being able to buy the complete legendaries off TP. Quite a number of players didn't like that and were saying that it cheapens the legendaries. Anet's way to solve this (without at the same time annoying those that liked this feature) was to introduce the second generation of legendary weapons, that could be obtained only by collections and crafting, and could not be bought.

This however caused another, unintended problem - the cost of creating legendary collections ended up too great for Anet, so they eventually decided to scrap the idea after only 4 of the gen2 weapons were released.

They solved that issue by introducing so called gen 2.5, that no longer required collections gen2-style, being based completely around crafting. This however again reintroduced the issue of it being centered primarily around TP (which, again, in the eyes of many players sort of cheapened the end result)

And then there was a shift in the direction of legendary creation, where it became impossible to obtain full legendary set without absolutely massive investments of time and effort in at least one type of content that is either niche, or at least vastly different from the one you usually play in. Which is doubly visible for armor, which is obtainable only through niche content that is outside the scope of interest of huge majority of players.Sure, not everyone acknowledges that this is an issue, but not acknowledging it does not mean it does not exist.

Ah, and of course there's an issue with how legendary gear interacts with build templates, which is something that supposedly should be fixed in the future by the introduction of legendary armory. We're yet to see if the armory will introduce any issues of its own.

Then, the issue that at least some of the legendary trinkets and backpacks can only be crafted once, which prevents you from decking multiple characters in legendary gear. That one also might be addressed by legendary armory when (if) it gets done.

And, while minor, there are still issues with the looks of envoy armor, with many glitches and dying problems that have been acknowledged, were meant to be fixed, but were ultimately never addressed.

Basically, there was no point in history when there wasn't some issue with legendaries.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:First problem that surfaced was the stat issue - originally, legendaries had fixed stats, and to change them you had to transmute the looks of the legendary on an exotic item with the right stats (which destroyed the legendary in the process). The legendary destruction during transmutation issue has been fixed with the wardrobe system, and the stat issue with the stat-switching QoL feature on legendaries.The original legendary weapons were essentially the gw2 version of gw1's obsidian armor. The only thing that was special about them was the skin (apart from the price tag) and you got to keep the skin even though you destroyed the item during the transmutation process. From the perspective of what legendary items are today that would be a problem, but back in the day the only point in getting a legendary was cosmetic.Second problem that was addressed was the precursor availability. People didn't like that there wasn't really any reliable way of obtaining precursors with their own effort. You could only either hope for RNG to smile your way, or bypass the whole system via buying one off TP. Thus, the precursor crafting system was made.You forgot to mention that the precursor crafting system had its fair share of critics as well. The most frequently made point was that some precursors were more expensive to acquire by way of the collection system than simply buying them on the trading post. In solving this problem the developers created a new one, potentially multiple new ones. Remember when some collections required the failure of certain open world event chains?Another of the original issues was about people being able to buy the complete legendaries off TP. Quite a number of players didn't like that and were saying that it cheapens the legendaries. Anet's way to solve this (without at the same time annoying those that liked this feature) was to introduce the second generation of legendary weapons, that could be obtained only by collections and crafting, and could not be bought.That is not a solution. The people who dislike the ability to buy legendaries on the trading post can point to the generation one weapons and say: "The problem is still there." Meanwhile those who like the fact that legendaries can be purchased off the trading post will look at all the other legendary items, pointing out that Anet invented a problem which previously did not exist.This however caused another, unintended problem - the cost of creating legendary collections ended up too great for Anet, so they eventually decided to scrap the idea after only 4 of the gen2 weapons were released.They solved that issue by introducing so called gen 2.5, that no longer required collections gen2-style, being based completely around crafting. This however again reintroduced the issue of it being centered primarily around TP (which, again, in the eyes of many players sort of cheapened the end result)And in the eyes of other players it addressed a problem which Anet had newly introduced.And then there was a shift in the direction of legendary creation, where it became impossible to obtain full legendary set without absolutely massive investments of time and effort in at least one type of content that is either niche, or at least vastly different from the one you usually play in. Which is doubly visible for armor, which is obtainable only through niche content that is outside the scope of interest of huge majority of players.Whereas previously getting a full set of legendary items was impossible because the game did not have enough legendary items for players to craft. Was that an issue with the system?Sure, not everyone acknowledges that this is an issue, but not acknowledging it does not mean it does not exist.Pretending that it exists when it does not is not one iota better.Ah, and of course there's an issue with how legendary gear interacts with build templates, which is something that supposedly should be fixed in the future by the introduction of legendary armory. We're yet to see if the armory will introduce any issues of its own.Is that an issue with the legendary items or with the "build templates" simply not being as good as they could/ should have been?Then, the issue that at least some of the legendary trinkets and backpacks can only be crafted once, which prevents you from decking multiple characters in legendary gear. That one also might be addressed by legendary armory when (if) it gets done.Yeah, no good reason why you can only make one per account. Gen one weapons never had that restriction.And, while minor, there are still issues with the looks of envoy armor, with many glitches and dying problems that have been acknowledged, were meant to be fixed, but were ultimately never addressed.That ship has sailed.Basically, there was no point in history when there wasn't some issue with legendaries.Then it's a good thing that no one made the claim that legendaries have always been flawless.

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@Katary.7096 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, there was no point in history when there
wasn't
some issue with legendaries.Then it's a good thing that no one made the claim that legendaries have always been flawless.Flawless? No. However, the statement this whole discussion goes back to was that:

@Katary.7096 said:If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 yearsAnd the response was that no, they were not fine for 8 years, there have always been issues. In fact, in your post above you even acknowledged it.

Those 8 years are full of many (both minor and major) issues with legendaries.

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You try run faster than train but not see rails.Explanation why it is:Why you sure that wvw or spvp legendary armor can be added in leg armory ? =)I am not sure.At first look on Legendary Armorer achievementBind 18 unique legendary armor pieces .. I have a lot of legendary armor parts, and still have 0/18 on this achievement ..

And I am ready that all my spvp and wvw set is not valid for leg. armory.

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@lare.5129 said:You try run faster than train but not see rails.Explanation why it is:Why you sure that wvw or spvp legendary armor can be added in leg armory ? =)I am not sure.At first look on Legendary Armorer achievementBind 18 unique legendary armor pieces .. I have a lot of legendary armor parts, and still have 0/18 on this achievement ..

And I am ready that all my spvp and wvw set is not valid for leg. armory.

That achievement was made specificaly for raid legendary armor skins so no other armor skins will count for it.

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@Linken.6345 said:That achievement was made specificaly for raid legendary armor skins so no other armor skins will count for it.so one legendary not equal some another legendary ..This achievement is only abstract example for understanding: that may be only raid armor can be added in armoryAnd till relize no one can't say that this is true or not. We don't know.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

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@Sylvyn.4750 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.The point i guess would be that instead of trying to use rewards to bait players into a content they're going to abandon anyway due to the general neglect, it would probably have been better to increase the interest in the content itself
by actually putting some effort into it
. And it's especially bad to bait players in the content that is basically abandoned by devs.

If the devs are not interested in putting any resources into improving the content, they should not pretend to care by still pushing players from other content types into it. It won't help the content anyway.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.The point i guess would be that instead of trying to use rewards to bait players into a content they're going to abandon anyway due to the general neglect, it would probably have been better to increase the interest in the content itself
by actually putting some effort into it
. And it's especially bad to bait players in the content that is basically abandoned by devs.

If the devs are not interested in putting any resources into improving the content, they should not pretend to care by still pushing players from other content types into it. It won't help the content anyway.

Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.

This is simply people grasping at whatever reasons they can come up with to back up their claim that they shouldn’t have to do content which they do not like in order to obtain something in that game mode.

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.Maybe it wouldn't seem different, but what's the point of it now anyway? The truth is that devs no longer care about driving players into said content. If they truly cared, they would have put more effort into said content long ago (in case of WvW), or would not flat out officially abandon it (in case of dungeons). The main reason why those "bait rewards" still remain as they were is probably because the devs don't even care about adjusting their accessibility.

In general, i agree that GoB is not that bad - it requires very shallow dipping into the content, and can practically be soloed (or half-soloed, half-afked), so it is something that can for the most part be ignored even by many players that dislike WvW specifically or PvP in general. Still, the meaning behind placement of those rewards is already lost - it disappeared together with the willingness of devs to support the content.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.Maybe it wouldn't seem different, but what's the point of it now anyway? The truth is that devs
no longer care about driving players into said content
. If they truly cared, they would have put more effort into said content long ago (in case of WvW), or would not flat out officially abandon it (in case of dungeons). The main reason why those "bait rewards" still remain as they were is probably because the devs don't even care about adjusting their accessibility.

In general, i agree that GoB is not that bad - it requires very shallow dipping into the content, and can practically be soloed (or half-soloed, half-afked), so it is something that
can
for the most part be ignored even by many players that dislike WvW specifically or PvP in general. Still, the meaning behind placement of those rewards is already lost - it disappeared together with the willingness of devs to support the content.

It still doesn’t matter whether the content is abandoned or not.

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