If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Astralporing.1957]

53 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Yeah I am going to call Shenanigans on this.

Anyone who pops into Raid Academy Discord will tell you how easy it is to get involved in a training group and the fact they are literally organizing all the time. They can tell you about the fact that they have a regular bunch of volunteers ready to jump in on discord  and lead a any group through just about any encounter at a moment's notice, as long as 9 people can be gathered.

We can look at Snowcrows which offers a resource that anyone can access, shares all the info that works and even shows a player which buttons to press and which order. A website run out of pocket by a small group of people for no other reason but to share what they consider to be the best tactics available.

We can look at Metabattle, which offers a variety of builds to support people looking to raid and is again funded out of pocket.

Go to Youtube and search any encounter and see just how many people have taken the time to make guides on how the encounters work.

 

All of the above represent a significant investment of time and money by people dedicated to the game and the content, doing what they can to help onboard people into the content and achieve the best results.

Sure, that is a lot of investment. The problem is that a lot of raiders think that this is enough. That, if they'll only offer training opportunities, many players will pick up on those and will end up liking the content.

A raider that puts a lot of effert into "educating players", while not being able to even consider that the reason behind raids' lack of popularity might lie in the content itself, may be hurting the raids' future even when he/she is thinking they're doing all they can to help.

The issue is, that the ability of players to affect the raid popularity through their own actions is extremely limited. Training can help, but it is never going to be impactful enough to matter in the long run. If there's not enough people interested in raiding to sustain them, it's not due to lack of training opportunities offered by raiders, and thus it's not something that can be solved that way. And yet the same people that are completely willing to invest a ton of effort in training, and are very helpful in pointing out how one can get into the content through those training opportunities, generally are also fully confident that raids as a content are perfectly fine and need no adjustments in order to open them up a little bit more.

 

As i mentioned before - for them it's not the content that needs to be changed, but the players. And they don't understand that maybe the players they need to populate the content do not want to change. And thus, by speaking up against any changes to the content, they actually do hinder any real possibility of the issue ever getting improved.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

14 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

TBH the post about raid being rather dead then changed was not representative necessarily of the total raid community. And in some sense makes sense. (For example if someone makes a vegan restaurant, the restaurant is doing badly and someone suggest selling hamburgers you would expect the same reaction)

It may seem so on the surface - but if the end result of doing that is the vegan restaurant shutting down completely (because it cannot survive on vegan players alone), then all they will get in the end is no vegan food at all, and a dead restaurant.

 

That's what is happening here. The vegan players don't want the restaurant to switch to the mixed clientele in order to survive. They think, that the only acceptable solution is to change the people around into vegans. Because, that is the only solution they can accept. Even if it actually happening is next to impossible, and the alternative is a dead venue, they will rather see the restaurant go down than accept that maybe there's simply not enough of them in the neighborhood to support an only-vegan place.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[yann.1946]

21 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It may seem so on the surface - but if the end result of doing that is the vegan restaurant shutting down completely (because it cannot survive on vegan players alone), then all they will get in the end is no vegan food at all, and a dead restaurant.

 

That's what is happening here. The vegan players don't want the restaurant to switch to the mixed clientele in order to survive. They think, that the only acceptable solution is to change the people around into vegans. Because, that is the only solution they can accept. Even if it actually happening is next to impossible, and the alternative is a dead venue, they will rather see the restaurant go down than accept that maybe there's simply not enough of them in the neighborhood to support an only-vegan place.

Well yes, because what the vegans might want is not nessarily just vegan food. They want a vegan restaurant, possibly to socialize with other vegans. Their is no point to some people if they don't get the restaurant. That may sound selfish but another example might show why thats not nessicarily so.

 

Take a gay bar,the whole point would be to have a place to meet other gay people. If the bar would just be another bar then their would be no point to it. 

 

Edit: Nothing to say about the second part of my response?

Edited May 5, 2021 by yann.1946

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Well yes, because what the vegans might want is not nessarily just vegan food. They want a vegan restaurant, possibly to socialize with other vegans. Their is no point to some people if they don't get the restaurant. That may sound selfish but another example might show why thats not nessicarily so.

 

Take a gay bar,the whole point would be to have a place to meet other gay people. If the bar would just be another bar then their would be no point to it.

Having to mingle in the same room was just one of the options. We're talking however about people that are against having two separate floors for different clientele. Or saying, that, okay, there can be a floor for "lesser" clients, but only if they'll end up getting much worse food, so, if they'll want to eat well, they will feel the pressure to go vegan.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Edit: Nothing to say about the second part of my response?

Not really. All those are just raiders trying to reaffirm their belief that it's not the content but the people that are an issue. I mean, all those points may be completely true, but they aren;t exactly any helpful at all. They are just "it's just the way it is, nothing to be done" type of approach.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[yann.1946]

51 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Having to mingle in the same room was just one of the options. We're talking however about people that are against having two separate floors for different clientele. Or saying, that, okay, there can be a floor for "lesser" clients, but only if they'll end up getting much worse food, so, if they'll want to eat well, they will feel the pressure to go vegan.

Do all raiders just become one singular entity in your mind?

 

Their are raiders who want easy mode without strings attached.

Their are raiders who don't want easymode because how it might affect their gamemode. (Will it stay a vegan restaurant if they start having hamburgers in a different room.) 

Their are raiders who don't want easymode because they believe it will not change raidparticipating. (Will any hamburgerlovers come to the a vegan restaurant if they start having hamburgers?) 

 

Honestly your view on this topic reminds me of the person saying all the easymode crowd wants is free legendaries. Its equally close to reality in my opinion.

 

51 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not really. All those are just raiders trying to reaffirm their belief that it's not the content but the people that are an issue. I mean, all those points may be completely true, but they aren;t exactly any helpful at all. They are just "it's just the way it is, nothing to be done" type of approach.

No, this is people injecting nuance in a topic. The poisoning of the well is something that could change, something large groups of raiders are fighting to change, and funnily enough a decent percentage of the people on the forum are partially causing this poisoning. And how people who suggest solutions might have missed parts of the problem that won't be solved with their solutions.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Having to mingle in the same room was just one of the options. We're talking however about people that are against having two separate floors for different clientele. Or saying, that, okay, there can be a floor for "lesser" clients, but only if they'll end up getting much worse food, so, if they'll want to eat well, they will feel the pressure to go vegan.

 

That depends entirely on why the vegan restaurant lost its customers. It was doing fine initially according to management. Now if they stopped offering part of their menu, ignored customer requests and had the access to a road denied due to city regulations, those are all things which can be fixed without compromising the initial concept behind the restaurant.

 

What would make it even worse is when people start badmouthing the restaurant without ever having eaten there (or having eaten there and demanded meat, not having read the restaurants bio), in essence creating a situation and pressuring the restaurant to change even if it might not have been necessary.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not really. All those are just raiders trying to reaffirm their belief that it's not the content but the people that are an issue. I mean, all those points may be completely true, but they aren;t exactly any helpful at all. They are just "it's just the way it is, nothing to be done" type of approach.

 

They are helpful in establishing a reasoning that other approaches might remedy the situation without compromising the mode. The games different game modes are all worse off than they were 2 years ago. Spvp is dead. Raids are barely hanging on and only due to massive efforts of the community. WvW is again losing players after a covid spike, open world pve and story have taken a MASSIVE trend downwards and rewards and achievements have become a huge repetitive chore.

 

It's almost as though the game was missing something, what could that be? Oh right: players.

 

Meanwhile we have seen another balance patch aimed at preparing the game for a 3rd set of elite specializations, and if one takes a closer look, most changes are revolving around PvE instanced content performance. Almost as though some type of such content might be delivered with EoD. Personally I think the DRM and instanced scaling we have seen might see use in actual content as to increase resource synergies.

 

TL;DR:

If the issue for the decline in raid participation can be found outside of the difficulty of the content or access to it, then there is no reason to make a change here unless: the developers do not intend to correct the issues which lead to a decline of the raid population, in which case band-aid fixes would be needed to artificial correct a problem caused, which might save the content in name alone.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure, that is a lot of investment. The problem is that a lot of raiders think that this is enough. That, if they'll only offer training opportunities, many players will pick up on those and will end up liking the content.

A raider that puts a lot of effert into "educating players", while not being able to even consider that the reason behind raids' lack of popularity might lie in the content itself, may be hurting the raids' future even when he/she is thinking they're doing all they can to help.

The issue is, that the ability of players to affect the raid popularity through their own actions is extremely limited. Training can help, but it is never going to be impactful enough to matter in the long run. If there's not enough people interested in raiding to sustain them, it's not due to lack of training opportunities offered by raiders, and thus it's not something that can be solved that way. And yet the same people that are completely willing to invest a ton of effort in training, and are very helpful in pointing out how one can get into the content through those training opportunities, generally are also fully confident that raids as a content are perfectly fine and need no adjustments in order to open them up a little bit more.

 

As i mentioned before - for them it's not the content that needs to be changed, but the players. And they don't understand that maybe the players they need to populate the content do not want to change. And thus, by speaking up against any changes to the content, they actually do hinder any real possibility of the issue ever getting improved.

No there's no shenanigans here -> Many community-organized runs fail due to interest nowadays, watch both the progression run and community training run channels, sure there are a few organized by active teachers in the special channel for isntructors, and they're usually full, but there's not enough of them for everyone.


Also training runs are not the best way to get the KP required, even if you have experience on the fight, because as I've stated earlier, you're rolling the dice on individuals' skill levels on each try as you'll probably be in a different group each time. It creates a very long, drawn out artificial barrier to entry if you're looking to PuG via KP.

Though imo KP says "I'm unable to make my own static, but refuse to contribute to the community by bringing someone with less experience along" That's a lot of entitlement because you're treating the whole community as your means to loot without putting forth any effort to help the community.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Honestly your view on this topic reminds me of the person saying all the easymode crowd wants is free legendaries. Its equally close to reality in my opinion.

Even if this is the case, what's the issue? You can literally lose your way to mistforged PVP armor but the moment someone is talking about something of strike-level difficulty as a path to legendaries, it's "O MY GOSH NO". See that's contempt for the community right now, because strikes are still more effort/coordination on behalf of the community than solo queue PVPing. Or heck, AFK camp capping so many people say I should be doing in WvW.

I've even said "fine make different versions" to satisfy the elitist raid community but still get this contempt of "no, we don't want to make our 10-man content worth your time against other activities"

[yann.1946]

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Even if this is the case, what's the issue? You can literally lose your way to mistforged PVP armor but the moment someone is talking about something of strike-level difficulty as a path to legendaries, it's "O MY GOSH NO". See that's contempt for the community right now, because strikes are still more effort/coordination on behalf of the community than solo queue PVPing. Or heck, AFK camp capping so many people say I should be doing in WvW.

I've even said "fine make different versions" to satisfy the elitist raid community but still get this contempt of "no, we don't want to make our 10-man content worth your time against other activities"

Getting legendaries for free would be bad for player retention, or was this a retorical question?

 

Also my point was not about whether or not it would be a good idea. It was about the fact that it would be a lie that that would be the only thing the easy mode people care about. And it is unhealthy to have discussions using lies.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Getting legendaries for free would be bad for player retention, or was this a retorical question?

 

Also my point was not about whether or not it would be a good idea. It was about the fact that it would be a lie that that would be the only thing the easy mode people care about. And it is unhealthy to have discussions using lies.

What if, GASP it's a combination of both wanting to do 10-man content but not wanting to do raids as currently designed?  because the other options are still there for getting legendaries?

And do you think that all raiders will keep raiding after getting their legendaries post Legendary Armory release? I mean really if all they wanted to do was raid to have fun they wouldn't be asking for KP all the time. It's disingenuous to say people who want more accessible content are only in it for the rewards when obviously people at the high end are as well with the no intention of helping the community.
 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

What if, GASP it's a combination of both wanting to do 10-man content but not wanting to do raids as currently designed?  because the other options are still there for getting legendaries?

So you agree with my point then? 

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And do you think that all raiders will keep raiding after getting their legendaries post Legendary Armory release? I mean really if all they wanted to do was raid to have fun they wouldn't be asking for KP all the time. It's disingenuous to say people who want more accessible content are only in it for the rewards when obviously people at the high end are as well with the no intention of helping the community.
 

How is this related in any way to what i said?

[Firebeard.1746]

5 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Yeah I am going to call Shenanigans on this.

Anyone who pops into Raid Academy Discord will tell you how easy it is to get involved in a training group and the fact they are literally organizing all the time. They can tell you about the fact that they have a regular bunch of volunteers ready to jump in on discord  and lead a any group through just about any encounter at a moment's notice, as long as 9 people can be gathered.

We can look at Snowcrows which offers a resource that anyone can access, shares all the info that works and even shows a player which buttons to press and which order. A website run out of pocket by a small group of people for no other reason but to share what they consider to be the best tactics available.

We can look at Metabattle, which offers a variety of builds to support people looking to raid and is again funded out of pocket.

Go to Youtube and search any encounter and see just how many people have taken the time to make guides on how the encounters work.

 

All of the above represent a significant investment of time and money by people dedicated to the game and the content, doing what they can to help onboard people into the content and achieve the best results.

 

And yet we have a significant number of people telling flat out lies about what raiding is like, disparaging the people who enjoy the encounters and purposefully sowing fear, prejudice and mistrust.
They flatly call community resources like Snowcrows and Metabattle "bad for the game", and they paint all raid groups as some kind of pressure-cooker filled with sociopaths and speed-freaks.
We have a signifcant number of people on these forums that have never set foot into a raid but will pen 14 paragraph essays about how bad they are and how bad the community enjoying them is.

The raid community's "worse enemy" is people making snap judgements and talking in worn out memes about content they are afraid will pop the bubble of their power fantasy.

Always has been.

I don't think you're being honest here at all, have you been to NA RA Discord lately? Whenever I'm on, most community organized runs fail to organize, i.e. not enough interest. The last time I pulled together a successful group we had to take a significant number of people from LFG.

The instructor ones usually are, but there's not enough intructors for everyone nor are they active when I'm able to raid (normally)

The NA raid community in general is losing interest and/or retreating to statics for reasons I've mentioned, because obviously one of the most popular places to pug doesn't appear effective anymore.

[Firebeard.1746]

28 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

So you agree with my point then? 

How is this related in any way to what i said?

So I guess I assumed you were implying getting legendaries for free is doing an alternative method of 10-man content, I would argue that's anything but, especially when there are other methods of getting them that I believe are easier (WvW, PVP).

The second part was pointing out that it's hyprocritical imo that people defending raids as-designed like to say all people want is free legendaries, when in reality that's what they want as well if they're asking for KP (which we've proven people in this discussion are). maybe I was reading too much into your post, but it felt like you were defending raids as-is. Going further, KP LFG posts are proof raids as designed aren't fun, because obviously they're not fun enough to be doing without the legendary reward right? Strikes don't reward leggies and people do them. And you can get ascended gear doing just about any other content.

I would also argue Hyprocrisy is unhealthy for discussion.
 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Obtena.7952]

Anyone with the belief that people want raid changes just to get 'free' stuff or 'easy' legendaries is being a bad actor to begin with. 

 

The fact is that at this point in the game with 6 years since we have had Ascended gear released, it's probably safe to say anyone that gives a rat's behind about their gameplay and is serious about raiding long term isn't going to be going into a raid proudly rocking a full exotic set with the intent of crafting legendary gear just to skip the 'expense' of Ascended. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The second part was pointing out that it's hyprocritical imo that people defending raids as-designed like to say all people want is free legendaries, when in reality that's what they want as well if they're asking for KP (which we've proven people in this discussion are). maybe I was reading too much into your post, but it felt like you were defending raids as-is. Going further, KP LFG posts are proof raids as designed aren't fun, because obviously they're not fun enough to be doing without the legendary reward right? Strikes don't reward leggies and people do them. And you can get ascended gear doing just about any other content.

I would also argue Hyprocrisy is unhealthy for discussion.
 

 

Asking for similar skilled players is not "wanting free legendaries". There are huge differences here. Even more if one considers that most players that actually ask for such high amount of KP certainly do NOT need the LI or LD any more.

 

Me for example, I've crafted 6 legendary armors from PvE (1650 LI), have crafted the legendary ring (150LD), and am still sitting on over 1k LI and LD each (combined 2k+ total). When My static puts up KP in LFG, if we occasionally have to fill up for a full clear due to someone spontaneously missing, it most certainly is NOT for the LI/LD or anything legendary.

 

As far as the NA raiding scene, yes that one has suffered far more than the EU one, mostly because NA is far smaller total player wise (which as mentioned by me has other reasons than raid design). The other factor might be that 3 years ago, when KP (back then LI) demands started to rise, raiders from NA were laughing about the organization and idea behind using this in LFG. Turn the clock to today, and a lot more players are burnt out in NA than EU and even worse, many players who WANT to raid actual transferred to EU leaving NA raiding in a really bad spot.

 

Why? Because the harsh reality is: training and retraining players is taxing and work. Playing with players of unequal skill level is stressful for everyone involved. While there was enough active raiders, this was not an issue, but as the active players diminish and the amount of encounters increases, thus requiring more knowledge and experience, it becomes ever harder to have a comfortable raiding experience. Which in turn again makes players drop out.

 

Again me as example: if I was not actively doing my full clear with my static, I would drop out of the content completely and lose interest. Which would lead to me not helping out in more casual guilds or in new groups (as I am doing now). Getting my organized full clear done and keeping my personal motivation up that way keeps me as a player to the mode at this time still. If I had to use the LFG AND was unable to play with players of similar skill level, I would not bother at all any more. That's the mentality many experienced raiders have, and many are dropping out of the content exactly because the work involved in actually enjoying the content increases continuously.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

35 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So I guess I assumed you were implying getting legendaries for free is doing an alternative method of 10-man content, I would argue that's anything but, especially when there are other methods of getting them that I believe are easier (WvW, PVP).

The post you originally quoted was just me addressing astral to point out hes lumping lots of people with different ideas together in either bad faith, or just them becoming one entity in their mind. I Gave the "people want free legendaries" example because it was equally ridiculous to me. 

 

I Would hope the next time you respond to a post, you actually read it in its entirety. 🙂

 

35 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The second part was pointing out that it's hyprocritical imo that people defending raids as-designed like to say all people want is free legendaries, when in reality that's what they want as well if they're asking for KP (which we've proven people in this discussion are). maybe I was reading too much into your post, but it felt like you were defending raids as-is. Going further, KP LFG posts are proof raids as designed aren't fun, because obviously they're not fun enough to be doing without the legendary reward right? Strikes don't reward leggies and people do them. And you can get ascended gear doing just about any other content.

I would also argue Hyprocrisy is unhealthy for discussion.
 

I completely agree that hypocrisy/ bad faith are extremely detrimental to discussions.

 

You haven't shown hypocrisy though.

First asking kill proof is not equivalent to wanting free legendaries ( easiest to see because people who have leg armour still ask killproof, and killproof gets asked in strikes which don't reward legendaries)

Secondly the reason people ask killproof has nothing to do with the enjoyment of the content, it has to do with what people desire their experience during the content to be. A good example is that people who train people without any kp will probablyt ask kp in a clear run. 

 

I really have to ask  did you think this part of your argument made any sense when you typed it? 

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

You haven't shown hypocrisy though.

First asking kill proof is not equivalent to wanting free legendaries ( easiest to see because people who have leg armour still ask killproof, and killproof gets asked in strikes which don't reward legendaries)

Secondly the reason people ask killproof has nothing to do with the enjoyment of the content, it has to do with what people desire their experience during the content to be. A good example is that people who train people without any kp will probablyt ask kp in a clear run. 

 

I really have to ask  did you think this part of your argument made any sense when you typed it? 

The KP groups in strikes are rare. Also, it is hypocritical. It means you're not willing to teach someone new the content if they need to learn it in order to participate in the content with you. Basically you're outsourcing the work of teaching anyone interested in engaging with the content to someone else, and then turning around and profiting off of the new peoples' experience with no work on your part, for what? legendaries. I would argue not wanting to be involved in growing the community and sustaining it, is basically asking for free legendaries, especially when raids in this game aren't 1-man shows, and you'll need other people to complete them.

I bet most people asking for KP don't train. Most of the people I know who train, have a static. I appreciate the efforts of those people. Practically every person who has trained me has said "in my static...."

And I disagree on the KP & enjoyment part. If the content was fun, it wouldn't be such a burden to teach other people. It wouldn't matter if it took longer for people to get legendaries, they would just be training if it was fun. In fact you only have everything to gain by training someone available at your time slot, they'll be there again later when you need to PuG at that time, you're growing the pool of available people and decreasing your wait times in LFG. Asking for KP is either admitting the content is so hard most people can't do it, or that you just want your legendary mats, because you lose nothing from training another person at that moment.

I know some people do enjoy raids, but I  don't believe most of the population doing them, truly enjoys them. I think the people asking for KP are chasing the carrot on the stick. This is why I want different versions, I think it's good there are people competing on clear times, and that there are people that enjoy the challenge as is, but I feel like there's a strong argument to be made that most of the community does not want to engage in the content as it's currently designed.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

32 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And I disagree on the KP & enjoyment part. If the content was fun, it wouldn't be such a burden to teach other people. It wouldn't matter if it took longer for people to get legendaries, they would just be training if it was fun. In fact you only have everything to gain by training someone available at your time slot, they'll hopefully be there again later when you need to PuG at that time, you're growing the pool of available people. Asking for KP is either admitting the content is so hard most people can't do it, or that you just want your legendary mats, because you lose nothing from training another person at that moment.
 

No ones time is free. Nor is people's willingness to engage in this games content, no matter which, without it being on their terms. That's literally what you are arguing for from the other side: letting players engage content at their terms, except you are judging others for doing so.

 

Again, you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who has barely spent any time on this content in relative terms.

 

Let's talk again once you have over 5,000 successful cumulative boss kills and see if you are still here training others. In fact, let's see how active YOU will be training others once you've passed 750 LI.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

19 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The KP groups in strikes are rare. Also, it hypocritical. It means you're not willing to teach someone new the content if they need to learn it in order to participate in the content with you.

Okay so the hypocrisy had nothing to do with legendaries.

 

Well it means that you don't want to train people at that moment, not that you don't want to train people.

Also do you consider it hypocritical for companies to ask certain diplomas etc?

 

19 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Basically you're outsourcing the work of teaching anyone interested in engaging with the content to someone else, and then turning around and profiting off of the new peoples' experience with no work on your part, for what? legendaries.

I bet most people asking for KP don't train. Most of the people I know who train, have a static. I appreciate the efforts of those people

 

[Firebeard.1746]

Quote

Okay so the hypocrisy had nothing to do with legendaries.

You're splitting hairs here. Why does the KP matter? Because you want the kill. Why does the kill matter? Leggies. If you don't need the legendary and the content is enjoyable, then just do it, right? No KPs required.
 

 

5 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Well it means that you don't want to train people at that moment, not that you don't want to train people.

Also do you consider it hypocritical for companies to ask certain diplomas etc?

Well there's two parts to this.

1) I think you're stretching here, most trainers don't pug, but even if they were then they should just train in that time slot so the interested parties will be there the next time around as I've stated previously. I mean if everyone just kept doing this the amount of time spent training would be rare at some point and most people would know what they're doing.

2) This is a game. This is a game. Do I need to earn a diploma to participate in a freaking game? Is that what should be required?
 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[yann.1946]

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You're splitting hairs here. Why does the KP matter? Because you want the kill. Why does the kill matter? Leggies.

 

 

Only if you reduce all the motivation of people who raid to legendaries, and i can't take anyone who makes that claim serious. 

Are you making that claim?

 

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Well there's two parts to this.

1) I think you're stretching here, most trainers don't pug, but even if they were then they should just train in that time slot so the interested parties will be there the next time around as I've stated previously. I mean if everyone just kept doing this the amount of time spent training would be rare at some point and most people would know what they're doing.

 

This is a ridiculous standard to uphold, experienced raiders should always try to train new raiders?  Do you actually think thats fair to ask from the people who run training runs?

 

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

2) This is a game. This is a game. Do I need to earn a diploma to participate in a freaking game? Is that what should be required?
 

The question was to test the consistency of your argument. If your argument would work you would need to say that its hypocritical for companies to ask degrees. If you don't think its hypocritical for companies to ask for degrees then you would need to change/tweek the argument because in the present state of the argument works for companies asking for degrees to.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Only if you reduce all the motivation of people who raid to legendaries, and i can't take anyone who makes that claim serious. 

Are you making that claim?

I'm not at all. I'm accusing people asking for KP in LFG of this.
 

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

This is a ridiculous standard to uphold, experienced raiders should always try to train new raiders?  Do you actually think thats fair to ask from the people who run training runs?

I think it's more than fair.  You're basically admitting the community is grossly undertrained with this comment and the people requiring KP aren't training enough. If there's people who don't have the KP when you list the group, obviously you're not training enough if there's that many willing people. If it's just 1-2, then you can just carry them while they learn. This is probably why the community has been dying. The only place I feel like anyone has claim on anyone else's experience is in a static with people you know, you know people who were there for you while you wiped everyone learning the content.  IMO, if you're PuGGing, you should be growing the community that's pugging.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

The question was to test the consistency of your argument. If your argument would work you would need to say that its hypocritical for companies to ask degrees. If you don't think its hypocritical for companies to ask for degrees then you would need to change/tweek the argument because in the present state of the argument works for companies asking for degrees to.

Man you're really reaching. Are Pugs and companies the same? Nope. A pug is a random group of people. A company is a group of people with a common goal, that usually work together. Statics are closer to a company, so your argument falls apart right there. Companies don't incorporate for a day and fall apart later after doing an hours' worth of work like a PuG does.  Also comparing a game's activity to work is almost admitting that it's not fun if you expect your argument to hold.

Crabs eat. And they eat their young. It's acceptable for them to do that. Humans need to eat, just like crabs need to eat. Does that mean that they should be able to eat their young? No. You can't take 2 dissimilar things, and claim they're similar and then say I'm being inconsistent.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not at all. I'm accusing people asking for KP of this.
 

 

The fact you are assuming that there is any difference between players asking for KP and those who are not, not realizing that this is not an issue of preference and believe but rather an issue of time slot and goal, shows you do not understand when and why KP are being used.

 

Here is a hint: the same player, exactly the same player, will occasionally ask for KP or not ask for KP or ask for varying amounts of KP depending on what type of raid run he is in at that point in time.

 

16 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I think it's more than fair.  You're basically admitting the community is grossly undertrained with this comment and the people requiring KP aren't training enough. If there's people who don't have the KP when you list the group, obviously you're not training enough if there's that many willing people. If it's just 1-2, then you can just carry them while they learn. This is probably why the community has been dying. The only place I feel like anyone has claim on anyone else's experience is in a static with people you know, you know people who were there for you while you wiped everyone learning the content.  IMO, if you're PuGGing, you should be growing the community that's pugging.

 

 

Yeah, let's wait and see how much growing the community you will be doing in the future. My personal experience here has always been: those who demand the most of others are the ones who give back the least at the end. Let's hope I am wrong about you.

 

If you were this engaged and this community shaping, you would have a full clearing static up and running by now while on the side training the next generation of players (or at the very least start training players in content you are experienced in by now, let;s not make this about full clearing right away). Don't tell me it's not possible, because that's literally what an ex-raid lead did as mentioned. The static full cleared the previous week (last week we did not manage to kill Q1) for the first time. Total training time around 9-10 weeks with 3 fully new member. The reality here is: there is those that do, and those that demand others do for them.

 

Until the time though that you are running your own training groups on a regular basis, maybe take a step back and stop judging other players for how much time they are willing and able to invest.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/4/2021 at 5:11 AM, Firebeard.1746 said:

You are in groups that ask for KP. you've admitted this, and there have been groups I've offered to join where I'd studied before but it wasn't enough. But if it was really that easy, the game mode wouldn't be struggling. Anet I guess would still have the best numbers for this.

I've done raids in many different groups (WITH and WITHOUT LI/KP reqs -if you don't understand why people ask for those in the first place then feel free to ask) and never needed or wanted to join statics, so not sure what point you're trying to make, but it doesn't seem to work. Maybe you just don't understand what pug even means? That would explain your last few irrelevant or striaght up false claims and comparisons.

 

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Except I'm joining other groups like you. You're basically proving I need to have a static where I know people have the experience. Basically I don't want to take people for granted. If I could make a static, I have some guarantee that person is learning something over time and I can benefit from it. Otherwise, I have to be a jerk and do KP only groups like you.

 

What are you even talking about? Maybe stop using words you don't understand the meaning of, because your last few posts including this quote is just ridiculous. Nothing I wrote somehow "proves you need statics". Apparently you don't uinderstand what "pugs" and "statics" are (or somehow we have vastly different definitions of those)?

 

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There is no point to the training mode you suggested if it's the same as the original (which is not what I thought you meant). If it's not, then there needs to be something telling people whether or not they did well enough to survive mechanics in the real thing if it's a soft training run.

Of course it's not the same, but then why do you keep writing something about me "assuming easy mode" when it's clear it will be easier than normal raids? How is this even an assumption, when it's one of the main points of its existance, huh?

 

Sure and receiving partial LI/LD drops doesn't give them that information. What gives them that information is whether or not they fulfill the conditions, break the bars, dodge the "circles", get to know the encounters' mechanics and complete easier modes. The point of that would be easier, friendlier environment of teaching the exact mechanics needed to complete the raids. Your idea about partial legendary material drops does nothing to show if they learned it or not. What shows that they learned it is the fact that they stop failing the mechanics.

 

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Totally wrong. There's no need in continuing this conversation. I'm already close to halfway to conflux in terms of tickets and I have great WvW guild. I can get slumbering conflux and equip both at the same time if I want. Heck I'm getting better at organizing ad-hoc groups when I'm on on my own now too. With the release of the new neck, I can use those shards on armor instead. I don't need legendaries from raids if that's all I was going for. I would like to do some type of more difficult 10-man content that requires working with other people, but don't want to give up working on legendaries. I find it absolutely telling that you're happy with me spending more time in uber casual content than in a more PuG friendly version of content you enjoy that still requires group coordination on some level in order to progress/advance my account. I find that absolutely ridiculous actually which is why I feel done here. There's nothing logical about your position on legendaries from strike-like versions of raids,it shows contempt for the community at large and for the content you love so much, that you wouldn't want to make it worth others' time to do it under the conditions they can do it, even if it's harder than other content that can award legendaries. The irony being I know some raiders that were asking for the neck coming from IB Saga because they couldn't handle sPVP XD (and you actually have to win for it, by the way, which makes them that much more shy). I already have the grindy mats (shards, tickets + Emblem), just needed the cash, so I have more tolerance than them.

What "totally wrong"? Now in this post you say it might work or might not work. But somehow before it was crucial to get those partial li/ld drops for... what reason? "to show people whether or not they're making progress [in understanding/learning raids, right?]" ? How is this different than getting kp after they finish the raid? How is that partial li/ld drop showing people they're getting better? It doesn't. What does is the fact that they'll understand the mechanics and consistently or semi-consistently succeed the encounters. What other showcase of learning the content does one need?

 

Also:

...sure, totally not about legendaries, TOTALLY about "saving those raids", ok 🤔 That random post right in the middle of tens of posts in this thread is an awful coincidence, whatever you say.

 

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I don't know how many times I have to say Puggable =/= easy mode on this thread.

If "that mode" isn't supposed to be "easier" then what is it supposed to be? You even wrote above that it needs to be easier (thought it was pretty clear seeing how we keep calling it training/easy mode all the time??), but now it's... not easier, but still "puggable"? (as I said, current version IS puggable as it is pretty much all I did and do -learn what those words mean, for real)

 

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But that's what you want, an easy mode that means nothing to you and your friends and to the people doing it. (or actually I think you really don't want one at all).

...I'm already raiding, what is this supposed to "mean to me"? It would mean to me if I wanted to learn the raids, but seeing how I already learned how to raid, it's pretty obvious it isn't supposed to be made for me, but for players that struggle and need help. I already wrote it's trying to solve problems other people complain about. Was this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha" moment? Because it failed terribly.

What is """meant for me""" in this idea though is ACTUALLY FUNNELING PEOPLE TO NORMAL RAIDS SO IT'S EASIER TO PUG BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE = MORE SQUADS = LESS WAIT TIME. THAT is what CAN "save raids" instead of replacing it or going after another lege armor acquisition method (Pretty sure I already wrote that, how is this still unclear?). Makes sense? Great. Doesn't make sense? Explain how.

 

Not only that but in this very post you claim that you "would like to do some type of more difficult 10-man content that requires working with other people, but don't want to give up working on legendaries.", so I don't understand BY WHAT LOGIC EXACTLY looking for a solution to actually funnel people into the current normal raid difficulty (a.k.a "more difficult 10-man content") is anything you wouldn't want. Unless what you wrote there is just not what you really think, but I'm still open for the explanation of what exactly I missed/misunderstood here.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/4/2021 at 1:05 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

You're right, he doesn't. He admitted this early in this thread.

 

Great joke, but still as wrong as it was the first time you said it. I already explained multiple times, it's just that for you nothing is "in good faith" or "valid" unless it offers easier legendary armor, lmao. Nothing you say in this thread helps "saving raids" in any way, feel free to stop pretending any time, thanks.

 

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, what can we do if the most prolific poster in this thread is someone that admitted would rather see raids dead than changed in any way that might actually make them more popular. And when many raiders still think that it's not a problem with the content, but with the players, and so the players are the only thing that needs to be "fixed" (as if it would ever work).

 

Well, what can ANYONE do if according to some people no idea is good unless it involves easier legendary acquisition method, as if that has anything to do with saving raids long-term, huh.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758