If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Firebeard.1746]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yeah, let's wait and see how much growing the community you will be doing in the future. My personal experience here has always been: those who demand the most of others are the ones who give back the least at the end. Let's hope I am wrong about you.

 

If you were this engaged and this community shaping, you would have a full clearing static up and running by now while on the side training the next generation of players (or at the very least start training players in content you are experienced in by now, let;s not make this about full clearing right away). Don't tell me it's not possible, because that's literally what an ex-raid lead did as mentioned. The static full cleared the previous week (last week we did not manage to kill Q1) for the first time. Total training time around 9-10 weeks with 3 fully new member. The reality here is: there is those that do, and those that demand others do for them.

 

Until the time though that you are running your own training groups on a regular basis, maybe take a step back and stop judging other players for how much time they are willing and able to invest.

If you're still engaged in the content, it's still your responsibility to keep the population alive, especially when it's this old. Training people a few times doesn't mean anything if they've left. The community should be self-propagating, and I'm not wrong about quantity of training runs if the content is this old (KP shouldn't be necessary, right?). People who pug with KP just want free rewards, without the effort to sustain the community that they need the rewards for. My suggestions explicitly revolve around killing the need for training runs.

I've done a training run before, and succeeded, after these conversations, I'm certain people just want to USE MY TIME for their advancement. They expect me to train the next generation for them. I've been toying with the idea of organizing my own groups after that, but seeing this, I'm like no, I don't have as much time as these people but they want to take from me but give nothing in return. Lots of assumptions, not enough self-honesty.

So your comment about people who demand the most is completely accurate. I've never asked for KP, these people who PuG are asking, And what you're saying with your comment is that you expect me to give you your next generation of trainees. because you ask for the KP, you're asking more than I do. Let's be really clear here, you are talking about yourself, or at least the people asking for KP.

And note my solution to raids does not include revoking KP in any way shape or form, I'm just stating that people asking KP are doing exactly what you're saying. I'm just telling people who are asking for KP that if they expect to keep the community, they need to put in more effort. It's crazy for them to say "everything is fine" but then openly admit to using KP while the community is struggling and lambast others for not wanting to do what they don't want to do either.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If you're still engaged in the content, it's still your responsibility to keep the population alive, especially when it's this old. Training people a few times doesn't mean anything if they've left. The community should be self-propagating, and I'm not wrong about quantity of training runs if the content is this old (KP shouldn't be necessary, right?). People who pug with KP just want free rewards, without the effort to sustain the community that they need the rewards for. My suggestions explicitly revolve around killing the need for training runs.
 

 

Yup that's just it. People who PUG and ask for KP are just free leechers. Nothing one can argue with here even after pointing out multiple times how incorrect this assumption might be.

 

The content being old has no bearing on needing KP. The only thing that matters here is the relative age of the content to each individual (how new is the content to each player individually). Overall you are correct, it has become far easier to enter and succeed at the content given we are not in a progress raiding stage. If only all players, especially new ones, took advantage of all opportunities given to them to prepare we would have a very different conversation. Alas, most do not.

 

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I've done a training run before, and succeeded, after these conversations, I'm certain people just want to USE MY TIME for their advancement. They expect me to train the next generation for them. I've been toying with the idea of organizing my own groups after that, but seeing this, I'm like no, I don't have as much time as these people but they want to take from me but give nothing in return. Lots of assumptions, not enough self-honesty.

 

I hope that "a training" run was not in reference to actually doing only 1 training run. This thread is nearly 6 weeks old. I've done more training runs per week on average than that, and I'm not even actively training a squad right now. If the advancement or growing of the community was dear to you, how those players you train go on would be of no consequence. It's of none current training run commanders is it? If successful you could even inspire others to do the same.

 

All I see is just another:"I want others to organize things because I can't be bothered to" complainer. You expect others to train, yet bow out yourself after 1 training run? That's pure hypocrisy right there.

 

As a matter of fact, what HAVE you done in those 6 weeks since this threads start as far as advancing your raiding capabilities and progress or better yet helping this community?

 

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So your comment about people who demand the most is completely accurate. I've never asked for KP, these people who PuG are asking, And what you're saying with your comment is that you expect me to give you your next generation of trainees. because you ask for the KP, you're asking more than I do. Let's be really clear here, you are talking about yourself, or at least the people asking for KP.
 

No, you've NEVER actually lead consistent trainings or engaged more difficult raid content. Which you just admitted to not wanting to do. So you are being hypocritical. No one "needs" you to train the next generation of raiders given you have not even participated in training the current one but instead taken advantage of others.

 

I and the players I run with certainly don't need anyone else to train players for us, we've done so ourselves just fine over the years. Oh and yes, I ask for KP if filling up training squads from LFG depending on what kind of training it is.

 

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And note my solution to raids does not include revoking KP in any way shape or form, I'm just stating that people asking KP are doing exactly what you're saying. I'm just telling people who are asking for KP that if they expect to keep the community, they need to put in more effort. It's crazy for them to say "everything is fine" but then openly admit to using KP while the community is struggling and lambast others for not wanting to do what they don't want to do either.

 

The community is struggling because a general lack of players. Players with a raiding mindset, which you for example do not posses given your self-centered argumentation hidden behind pretend community concerns (you might notice how everything you talk about always comes back as how it should benefit you or how you do not want to be taken advantage of), are already a niche of any MMORPGs community. If the total size of the player base shrinks, the niche communities shrink as well.

 

The community is shrinking because of players just like you, coming in telling others to put in more work while bowing out themselves with nice words and big plans or no plans at all. The difference here: those of us who put in the work actually achieve their goals in game while others have been complaining on forums for years by now. So good luck with that approach.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yup that's just it. People who PUG and ask for KP are just free leechers. Nothing one can argue with here even after pointing out multiple times how incorrect this assumption might be.

 

The content being old has no bearing on needing KP. The only thing that matter here is the relative age of the content to each individual (how new is the content to each player individually). Overall you are correct, it has become far easier to enter and succeed at the content given we are not in a progress raiding stage. If only all players, especially new ones, took advantage of all opportunities given to them to prepare we would have a very different conversation. Alas, most do not.

No it's not incorrect. Because if there were enough training runs, everyone would have the KP already.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, you've NEVER actually lead consistent trainings or engaged more difficult raid content. Which you just admitted to not wanting to do. So you are being hypocritical. No one "needs" you to train the next generation of raiders given you have not even participated in training the current one. I and the players I run with certainly don't need anyone else to train players for us, we've done so ourselves just fine over the years. Oh and yes, I ask for KP if filling up training squads from LFG depending on what kind of training it is.

Where did I claim that I do consistent trainings? I said I was toying with it. BTW, I consistently led strikes when they were current content. I'd like content like that to be on par with sPvP/Wvw in terms of reward structure. Is that insane?

So you're lying. I am willing to do 10-man content consistently, it's just I don't want to ask for KP, which raids essentially require by design if you want to clear consistently. I guess that's just a preference.

I'll give you a pass on asking for KP, but not Sobx if you're telling the truth.

 

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The community is struggling because a general lack of players. Players with a raiding mindset, which you for example do not posses, are already a niche of any MMORPGs community. If the total size of the player base shrinks, the niche communities shrink as well.

 

The community is shrinking because of players just like you, coming in telling others to put in more work while bowing out themselves with nice words and big plans or no plans at all.

This is outright false. Earnings reports showed NA bringing in more players in 2020. I'm fully capable of raiding up to Heroic in WoW and have on and off:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/proudmoore/nelluced/pve/raids

Again, piles and piles of assumptions and personal attacks. Love it.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

..sure, totally not about legendaries, TOTALLY about "saving those raids", ok 🤔 That random post right in the middle of tens of posts in this thread is an awful coincidence, whatever you say.

It's funny you dig this up but not where I said I don't like Envoy compared to the alternatives. XD.

And I already decided to agree with you a few posts ago on leggies, explained your hypocrisy and you don't acknowledge this and still refuse to explain why I should be more rewarded for soloq sPVP than strikes. You're literally not contributing to this conversation anymore, just bashing.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No it's not incorrect. Because if there were enough training runs, everyone would have the KP already.

 

Yeah, take a moment to think on that a bit longer. That is literally impossible, but I'll let you figure the logical fallacy here yourself.

 

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Where did I claim that I do consistent trainings? I said I was toying with it. BTW, I consistently led strikes when they were current content. I'd like content like that to be on par with sPvP/Wvw in terms of reward structure. Is that insane?

So you're lying. I am willing to do 10-man content consistently, it's just I don't want to ask for KP. I guess that's just a preference.

I'll give you a pass on asking for KP, but not Sobx if you're telling the truth.

Strikes are not raids. Comparing strikes to raids is like comparing story mission to fractal challenge modes.

 

You are willing to do 10 man instanced content which requires no player skill. That's far off from what raids are meant to be currently and even further off from what it constitutes to actually train players up.

 

I don't need you to give me a pass on anything. I don't live or breath to suit your judgement nor am I in need of your approval to feel validated or correct about my approach because I have been at this long enough to understand what is needed for success.

 

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy in your approach to this subject.

 

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is outright false. Earnings reports showed NA bringing in more players in 2020. I'm fully capable of raiding up to Heroic.

Again, piles and piles of assumptions and personal attacks. Love it.

Earnings =/= player amount.

 

Earnings means simply more money was made which given existing players spent more time at home and likely the revenue/player went up, is meaningless on its own to make any claim, which you should know.

[Firebeard.1746]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not only that but in this very post you claim that you "would like to do some type of more difficult 10-man content that requires working with other people, but don't want to give up working on legendaries.", so I don't understand BY WHAT LOGIC EXACTLY looking for a solution to actually funnel people into the current normal raid difficulty (a.k.a "more difficult 10-man content") is anything you wouldn't want. Unless what you wrote there is just not what you really think, but I'm still open for the explanation of what exactly I missed/misunderstood here.

I'm saying, introduce a strike-like version because the content holds you hostage literally over 1 persons performance over and over. This is the issue, you either ask for KP and make sure everyone can do it, or you're stuck waiting hours and hours for people to learn their role, regardless of your performance. Make it give clear tells when the group does well enough to do the raid version, then everyone hops in and snags that too. It's basically like training, but without like the cheese grater. And I'm typing this for like the 5th time in this thread, you're agruing just to argue.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are willing to do 10 man instanced content which requires no player skill. That's far off from what raids are meant to be currently and even further off from what it constitutes to actually train players up.

I beg to differ. WoJ requires more individual effort  from every player than CA, do you not agree?

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Earnings =/= player amount.

 

Earnings means simply more money was made which given existing players spent more time at home and likely the revenue/player went up, is meaningless on its own to make any claim, which you should know.

Not when they explicitly quote the fact they're selling more copies.

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

I beg to differ. WoJ requires more individual effort  from every player than CA, do you not agree?

Each player? Sure. The entire squad? No. WoJ has 0 dedicated mechanics besides players having to run away from each other, and even that can be compensated and worked around.

 

CA, while being one of the easiest raid bosses, still requires at least 2, often 4, players to take on specific tasks.

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Not when they explicitly quote the fact they're selling more copies.

The median LI for any account to have 1 LI is between 2-4,000 hours played. The mean is 3 LI for players with 1-500 hours. (according to gw2efficiency, which is already biased towards far more dedicated players)

 

Let's assume all those new players joined the game on January 1st, 2020. How many of them will be even engaged in raids on a concurrent basis and at what point in time?

 

You are correct though, the decline felt in the different game communities is preceding 2020.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Each player? Sure. The entire squad? No. WoJ has 0 dedicated mechanics besides players having to run away from each other, and even that can be compensated and worked around.

This is exactly what I was explaining and have explained multiple times as an issue with raids and their design, most raid encounters in other games don't have mechanics that have dedicated players, besides tank/healing (and those don't change much between encounters). That's actually why this game struggles so much in raid participation. There's not alot of room for even a good player to compensate. So raids aren't necessarily "harder" it's just less "hostage situation". Some raids are difficult, but there's others that are pretty easy too in comparison to strikes if all the pressure isn't on you. Cairn, Mursaat overseer, VG to name a few. And note the dedicated player roles (tank, healer) have many places to learn those roles in other games.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The median LI for any account to have 1 LI is between 2-4,000 hours played. The mean is 3 LI for players with 1-500 hours. (according to gw2efficiency, which is already biased towards far more dedicated players)

 

Let's assume all those new players joined the game on January 1st, 2020. How many of them will be even engaged in raids on a concurrent basis and at what point in time?

I'm not really sure what you're driving at here. I guess you could be saying some people who are really driven get into it faster? Mean is such a tricky number because it doesn't tell you anything -> there could be 5 people no lifing it and it hyper-inflates reality. You have no idea how many failed training runs those few people went through and if that's sane for everyone, especially given the hostage sitation bit we've mutually uncovered. 

And as far as KP goes, 3 is nothing. Like that gets you no where. That means you have a friend who takes you every once in a blue moon, maybe.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not really sure what you're driving at here. I guess you could be saying some people who are really driven get into it faster? Mean is such a tricky number because it doesn't tell you anything -> there could be 5 people no lifing it and it hyper-inflates reality. You have no idea how many failed training runs those few people went through and if that's sane for everyone, especially given the hostage sitation bit we've mutually uncovered. 

And as far as KP goes, 3 is nothing. Like that gets you no where. That means you have a friend who takes you every once in a blue moon, maybe.

I'm using the median and mean in relation to each other to describe a probably situation or given. Both of those calculations each serve a purpose and looking at them combined or rather in relationship to another allows a better basis to form an assumption around. In this case: most players below X hours have likely never even tried raiding or even gotten so far in this game to consider raiding, so having players join the game while still below this time played is of little consequence to the overall raid population at this point in time.

 

I don't have to account for failed training runs, unless you want to claim that that the vast majority of players leave this content after getting into a training run, which in turn would contradict the assumption that access to this content is the main concern.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not at all. I'm accusing people asking for KP in LFG of this.
 

Then you really have no clue why people raid, atleast its good to know then.

 

For your information, their are people in lfg who have more then enough li to make all the legendaries theyd like and still ask kp, how would you explain that?

 

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I think it's more than fair.  You're basically admitting the community is grossly undertrained with this comment and the people requiring KP aren't training enough. If there's people who don't have the KP when you list the group, obviously you're not training enough if there's that many willing people. If it's just 1-2, then you can just carry them while they learn. This is probably why the community has been dying. The only place I feel like anyone has claim on anyone else's experience is in a static with people you know, you know people who were there for you while you wiped everyone learning the content.  IMO, if you're PuGGing, you should be growing the community that's pugging.

 

That is litary not what pugging is or has been it this game at all. in any gamemode. 

 

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Man you're really reaching. Are Pugs and companies the same? Nope. A pug is a random group of people. A company is a group of people with a common goal, that usually work together. Statics are closer to a company, so your argument falls apart right there. Companies don't incorporate for a day and fall apart later after doing an hours' worth of work like a PuG does.  Also comparing a game's activity to work is almost admitting that it's not fun if you expect your argument to hold.

Crabs eat. And they eat their young. It's acceptable for them to do that. Humans need to eat, just like crabs need to eat. Does that mean that they should be able to eat their young? No. You can't take 2 dissimilar things, and claim they're similar and then say I'm being inconsistent.

To show that they are dissimilar you have to show some difference that is material to the point were discussing, in this case the hypocrisy of asking requirements while not training people to get these requirements yourself. 

 

For example, i would argue that the amount of children a crab gets (around 10000 atleast thats what the internet told me) changes the value of a child to the species and eating even50 percent of these wouldnt be a problem for the species. While in humans eating even 1 child would severely diminish our survival as a species.

 

Here the difference of the amount of childeren is a material difference to the acceptability of eating children.

 

Now please explain why a company staying together longer matters to the question of hypocrisy?

And as a tip, you can't use practicality as an argument because hypocrisy is independent of practicality.

[Firebeard.1746]

45 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Then you really have no clue why people raid, atleast its good to know then.

 

For your information, their are people in lfg who have more then enough li to make all the legendaries theyd like and still ask kp, how would you explain that?

It could be that's their main source of gold, in which case it's still along the same line as legendaries : rewards. It's kind of bizarre that they wouldn't spend more time helping people if that's not the case. If you're speed running, then you'd want to be in the same group so you could coordinate better. Or maybe they just want a lot of LI to strut their stuff, still goes back to rewards, which isn't much better than legendaries.

If all they want to do is raid, then the KP wouldn't matter because the intent of the KP is to try to guarantee a reward.

 

45 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

To show that they are dissimilar you have to show some difference that is material to the point were discussing, in this case the hypocrisy of asking requirements while not training people to get these requirements yourself. 

 

For example, i would argue that the amount of children a crab gets (around 10000 atleast thats what the internet told me) changes the value of a child to the species and eating even50 percent of these wouldnt be a problem for the species. While in humans eating even 1 child would severely diminish our survival as a species.

 

Here the difference of the amount of childeren is a material difference to the acceptability of eating children.

 

Now please explain why a company staying together longer matters to the question of hypocrisy?

And as a tip, you can't use practicality as an argument because hypocrisy is independent of practicality.

ANd this has to do with companies and degrees how? I mean I feel like you need to prove the similarity, otherwise my crab example holds, you can literally make up anything. And using your analogy, I'd say PuGs aren't companies. Statics are the companies of raiding.

Wait are you seriously saying my mom could have eaten one of use because she had 6 kids? I mean where's the cut off? XD Also what countries have that written into law? XD

But in any case, you're saying that hunger in a crab and human aren't supposed to be solved in the same way, yes? So shouldn't that mean that grouping for $$ IRL vs grouping in game should work different?

This conversation has taken a really bizarre turn. Am I talking to Krampus?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I don't have to account for failed training runs, unless you want to claim that that the vast majority of players leave this content after getting into a training run, which in turn would contradict the assumption that access to this content is the main concern.

No it's still totally a valid concern, because barrier to entry is a thing. If you have to do 300 training runs and have 75 successsful ones and you'd want to get to the point of raiding regularly a year with that KP, then that's easily out of reach for many people who can't have a dedicated 600+ hours of raiding in a year. I afk a lot in this game so on paper it looks like I have a lot of /played time, but I don't have that much dedicated, uninterruptible time.

[yann.1946]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It could be that's their main source of gold, in which case it's still along the same line as legendaries : rewards. It's kind of bizarre that they wouldn't spend more time helping people if that's not the case. If you're speed running, then you'd want to be in the same group so you could coordinate better. Or maybe they just want a lot of LI to strut their stuff, still goes back to rewards, which isn't much better than legendaries.

 

Smoothness of the kill is one of the reasons, how do you explain people wanting killproof after their first clear? When the reward are almost zero?

Btw im not saying rewards are not part of why people raid, just not all the reason and almost none of the reasons people ask kp.

 

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

ANd this has to do with companies and degrees how? I mean I feel like you need to prove the similarity, otherwise my crab example holds. And using your analogy, I'd say PuGs aren't companies. Statics are the companies of raiding.

 

 

The simularities would be that they are both situations where one group of people looks at another person to fill some position, and they both ask a requirement that they are not providing a way to get.

 

Because that is the only thing your original argument rested on. 

 

I agree that companies and pugs are extremely dissimilar in lots of ways, but on the setting of the argument you used to proof hypocrisy, they map one on one. Mostly because your argument was not very nuanced.

 

And no i dont have to show why they are similar as any comparison will always be dissimilar in some aspects, your job when addressing the argument is showing why these differences matter. But as far as i can see you havent even tried to do that.

 

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Wait are you seriously saying my mom could have eaten one of use because she had 6 kids? I mean where's the cut off? XD Also what countries have that written into law? XD

What im saying is that if humans had around 10000 children on average it might have been acceptable to eat your children yes.

Although i have to dissapoint you , i havent spend that much time pondering when it would acceptable to eat children.

 

I really would suggest taking a few courses in logic etc, it might help you in the future to  formulate more consistent arguments.

[Firebeard.1746]

10 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Smoothness of the kill is one of the reasons, how do you explain people wanting killproof after their first clear? When the reward are almost zero?

Btw im not saying rewards are not part of why people raid, just not all the reason and almost none of the reasons people ask kp.

Why would smoothness matter if one needs nothing from the raid's kill?
 

Quote

The simularities would be that they are both situations where one group of people looks at another person to fill some position, and they both ask a requirement that they are not providing a way to get.

And the dissimilarity is that people play games to have fun and being judged based on value in a "fun" environment isn't very good for the purpose of a game: enjoyment. Whereas the purpose of work isn't enjoyment necessarily (some people enjoy it, but most people are just surviving).  So there's your dissimilarity proof, happy now? The devs should not be happy with such a system.

 

10 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

What im saying is that if humans had around 10000 children on average it might have been acceptable to eat your children yes.

Although i have to dissapoint you , i havent spend that much time pondering when it would acceptable to eat children.

So if I'm a sperm donor and father 10000 kids I can eat one? I'm not serious, but I'm just pointing out that there's a way to hit this edge case, but it's still socially unacceptable.

 

10 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I really would suggest taking a few courses in logic etc, it might help you in the future to  formulate more consistent arguments.

I have and the ability to prove or disprove an argument is all based on which facts defined as true and untrue, and as this is based off of personal reality and we're not the same, it's very likely neither of our arguments will hold with the other.

This is why you can never win an argument in the internet.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why would smoothness matter?

Because their is a form of enjoyment that comes from smooth kills. You've never heard people talking about it?

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And the dissimilarity is that people play games to have fun and being judged based on value in a "fun" environment isn't very good for the purpose of a game: enjoyment. So there's your dissimilarity proof, happy now? The devs should not be happy with such a system.

 

How does this change the hypocriticalness of the action. Something being bad for the game is not the same thing as people being hypocritical.

 

Also people do enjoy being judged, just in the different direction, thats a reason people have such a problem with skins being sold, as it doesn't show what they have done to get it.

 

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

So if I'm a sperm donor and father 10000 kids I can eat one?

You do realize societal norms are based on the general population right? What we consider acceptable behavior is a group thing not something thats determined by a singular persons actions. Also to end this tangent, in general we dont really describe moral awareness to animals.

 

 

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I have and the ability to prove or disprove an argument is all based on which facts defined as true and untrue, and as this is based off of personal reality and we're not the same, it's very likely neither of our arguments will hold with the other.

This is why you can never win an argument in the internet.

While that is true, my problem now is not that i disagree with your foundational believes (if that was our disagreement i wouldnt even respond). It is that the arguments you use do not work. That is why i used your premise to ask question. Why i actually bothered going on the crab tangent to explain how a counterargument would work.

[Cyninja.2954]

36 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No it's still totally a valid concern, because barrier to entry is a thing. If you have to do 300 training runs and have 75 successsful ones and you'd want to get to the point of raiding regularly a year with that KP, then that's easily out of reach for many people who can't have a dedicated 600+ hours of raiding in a year. I afk a lot in this game so on paper it looks like I have a lot of /played time, but I don't have that much dedicated, uninterruptible time.

 

Which makes this an issue of not having access to the groups one desires, in this case more experienced groups which demand KP, but not access to the content. Why does it matter if players have to join non training runs? If there was so many players in this situation, shouldn't it be easily possible to form groups of their own without KP requirements which filled instantly?

 

For any player unhappy with the KP system, it makes even less sense to aim to get a certain amount of KP. It would be far better to find other ways to create groups, which in turn leads us to the core reason why KP are being used: there is no other similar way to judge player skill, no matter how faulty KP might be, besides getting to know players personally.

 

19 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why would smoothness matter if one needs nothing from the raid's kill?
 

And the dissimilarity is that people play games to have fun and being judged based on value in a "fun" environment isn't very good for the purpose of a game: enjoyment. Whereas the purpose of work isn't enjoyment necessarily (some people enjoy it, but most people are just surviving).  So there's your dissimilarity proof, happy now? The devs should not be happy with such a system.

 

You answered your own question right with your next paragraph. Smoothness of runs matters to people because that is fun to them.

 

The dissimilarity comes in at how much "work" and effort different players are willing to put in to achieve their personal subjective fun with specific content.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

22 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Because their is a form of enjoyment that comes from smooth kills. You've never heard people talking about it?

You know what, I never have. Not on these forums or in-game.

 

Quote

The question was to test the consistency of your argument. If your argument would work you would need to say that its hypocritical for companies to ask degrees. If you don't think its hypocritical for companies to ask for degrees then you would need to change/tweek the argument because in the present state of the argument works for companies asking for degrees to.

. Though companies DO build relationships with schools and recruit from them, so if the Pugs aren't doing the same things, then they're not like companies. Companies don't just expect the degrees in a vacuum, they generally work with boards, certification, etc.  Google provides trainings on online sites. PuGs requiring KP in a vacuum aren't. The only condition under which they're equivalent is if the members of the PuG are providing training, just like companies provide it through their relationships with schools providing direction, as well as more direct ways of training. I don't believe PuGs are providing adequate training if they must still ask for KP in content this old.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

11 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

- Though companies DO build relationships with schools and recruit from them, so if the Pugs aren't doing the same things, then maybe they're not like companies. Companies don't just expect the degrees in a vacuum, they generally work with boards, certification, etc. Are your PuGs part of NA raid academy? Do they do training runs there?

Google provides trainings on online sites. Are your PuGs doing that? So there's the difference. The companies are putting in effort but the PuGs aren't. I'm merely expecting the same thing from PuGs as I am real-world companies.

So, what exactly do you believe trainings, training discords, guides, build sharing, etc. and exchange between players counts as?

 

That is literally established parts of the community reaching out to potential new players. You keep assuming PuG players/groups are their very own player base and I just can't understand where you are getting this notion.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

So, what exactly do you believe trainings, training discords, guides, build sharing, etc. and exchange between players counts as?

 

That is literally established parts of the community reaching out to potential new players. You keep assuming PuG players/groups are their very own player base and I just can't understand where you are getting this notion.

My experience is that these are disjoint groups of people in general.

[Cyninja.2954]

20 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

My experience is that these are disjoint groups of people in general.

Then you lack experience because that is simply not the case. There is no PuG community and static community. It's a fluent transition on all levels.

 

Here is something to think about for you:

Most active raiders raid more than their full clear per week. I know players who full clear on Monday and then continue to raid 6 more days per week in different ways either training new builds (or testing them), raid for fun or run training groups. That is AFTER they did their static clears.

 

Most active players fall in that bracket in some way or another. Some stick to full clearing Win1-4, then either call it quits or practice on bosses they have not cleared. Others have more or less bosses cleared, but nearly every player will go for what he has cleared and experience on first (occasionally in a static or group of players he knows), then move on to further bosses with players who have everything cleared killing bosses multiple times each week.

 

Statics dissolve constantly. Or players drop out and need to be replaced. The mere assumption that there is 2 communities and only 1 type of player uses the LFG for PuG play is completely incorrect.

 

EDIT:

and maybe that is why we keep talking past each other. You are basing your arguments and approach around an assumption which I simply have not experienced: that players are either PuG or static players but never both, which is just not the case. Players are what they are depending on the situation they are in at the point in time. I am a very different "type" of player between running with my static, filling up a chill guild raid or running a training, and that is reflected in how I will interact with the LFG.

 

EDIT 2:

Maybe it is better to think of it this way: KP are a means to an end, mostly trying to find similar skilled players via the LFG (and skill levels can vary a lot). The over-representation of different skilled groups versus trainings or 0 KP groups on the LFG is heavily skewed towards groups asking for KP of different amounts. Why? Because there is far more groups at different stages of experience than there is beginner groups which makes sense in the context that the total player base of raids is still far larger than new players joining (not accounting for lack of experience in creating groups for new player, which would also be a factor. I have said so before but players used to tackling group content from other game modes have a far easier time getting into pve raids). That might leave the impression to an individual that only PuG players demand KP, when in fact it does not matter if players play predominantly in PuG groups or statics, because the goal for using KP is not based around that distinction.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You know what, I never have. Not on these forums or in-game.

 

Then apparently you haven't been reading a few of the posts, because this has been pointed out a few times already.

 

To understand why just approach this from the opposite direction, Do you think dislike extremely bad run?

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

. Though companies DO build relationships with schools and recruit from them, so if the Pugs aren't doing the same things, then they're not like companies. Companies don't just expect the degrees in a vacuum, they generally work with boards, certification, etc.  Google provides trainings on online sites. PuGs requiring KP in a vacuum aren't. The only condition under which they're equivalent is if the members of the PuG are providing training, just like companies provide it through their relationships with schools providing direction, as well as more direct ways of training.

This is a way better argument, the difference being that they do work with school (which is a material difference that matters).

Now i would counter that not all companies do that, big ones maybe, but the smaller ones don't really contribute to schooling. Do you think the comanies who don't participate in the cycle of schooling be not allowed to ask for degrees?

 

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I don't believe PuGs are providing adequate training if they must still ask for KP in content this old.

No matter how well trained the population of raiders is, kp will still be asked (even if all raiders are highendguild level of qualified),

because their will be always new people joining.