If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Sobx.1758]

19 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except you can't freely swap stats and experiment in the same way with ascended armor that you can with legendaries, free of charge and without losing upgrade items.

""free of charge"" 😄

 

You're free to test it with exotics. Or pvp lobby. Or craft mutliple sets and still have them cheaper than that "free of charge" legendary armor method, lmao.

 

19 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

This makes no sense when I've already spelled out strikes are more difficult than what I'm doing now, but if you want fewer people engaged in PVE that's fine.

They're not more difficult, but whatever you need for you argument. Also strikes are irrelevant here, stop derailing.

 

e: And there we go again, 3 responses to one post, calm down with your spam.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758
I just keep getting spammed whenever I write a single post <.<

[Firebeard.1746]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"free of charge"" 😄

 

You're free to test it with exotics. Or pvp lobby. Or craft mutliple sets and still have them cheaper then that "free of charge" legendary armor method, lmao.

This doesn't work on the fly in WvW between encounters (or just any situation you want to rapidly try something new), they're not the same, but if you want to make that argument I'll let you because then we should just remove them all from the game, no? We can all just go back to vanilla ascended?

 

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

""free of charge"" 😄

 

You're free to test it with exotics. Or pvp lobby. Or craft mutliple sets and still have them cheaper then that "free of charge" legendary armor method, lmao.

 

They're not more difficult, but whatever you need for you argument. Also strieks are irrelevant here, stop derailing.

 

e: And there we go again, 3 responses to one post, calm down with your spam.

 

 

 Pressing a button vs organizing a team before hand, sure.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

This doesn't work on the fly in WvW.

Neither does "just getting legendary armor at this exact moment", getting multiple ascended sets is still much easier and faster, not sure what this "argument" is supposed to be as if your average player incapable of participating in raids somehow keeps extensively testing new builds. Not sure what that ridiculous argument is supposed to be.

 

3 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Pressing a button vs organizing a team before hand, sure.

...?

[Firebeard.1746]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Neither does "just getting legendary armor at this exact moment", getting multiple ascended sets is still much easier and faster, not sure what this "argument" is supposed to be as if your average player incapable of participating in raids somehow keeps extensively testing new builds. Not sure what that ridiculous argument is supposed to be.

I never said that I wanted it this exact moment. I already have multiple ascended sets. You're trying to dodge around the fact you're claiming they're the same functionally. because you know they aren't.
 

Quote

Pressing a button vs organizing a team before hand, sure.

How hard is it to get into a ranked PVP match? What do you have to do? What do you need for a strike?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I never said that I wanted it this exact moment. I already have multiple ascended sets. You're trying to dodge around the fact you're claiming they're the same. because you know they aren't.

You try using an "argument" that you can't change stats in ascended armor on the fly, but somehow forget the time and effort it takes to actually get that legendary armor, which takes vastly more than crafting multiple ascended sets. Same thing when you wrote that stat swap is "for free", while trying to completely ignore where that ability even comes from (in terms of time/effort/gold), lmao.

 

15 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

How hard is it to get into a ranked PVP match? What do you have to do? What do you need for a strike?

I mean, then just go for pvp lege armor and stop pretending you care about raids when you don't, thanks.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Maybe re-read the last few messages, because you're really getting lost pretty fast while responding.
You try using an "argument" that you can't change stats in ascended armor on the fly, but somehow forget the time and effort it takes to actually get that legendary armor, which takes vastly longer than crafting multiple ascended sets. Same thing when you wrote that stat swap is "for free", while trying to ignore complete where that ability even comes from (in terms of time/effort/gold), lmao.

No you re-read, because you're clearly claiming ascended and legendary are functionally equivalent. Obviously I'm willing to put in the effort before hand, as I'm currently working on some. Obviously I could stat swap my current gear if I wanted, are you saying I shouldn't try to be earning legendaries now? Is that where this is going? I guess raiders shouldn't be doing that either. We should just lock in all their envoy armor into the currently selected stats. I already stat swap when I need stuff.

 

Quote

I mean, then just go for pvp lege armor and stop pretending you care about raids when you don't, thanks.

 Okay, will do man! It's not worth the effort of arguing with you to try to combine two things I want at once. I mean I literally wouldn't be here commenting if all I needed to do was sPVP and that's all I wanted to do in this game.

Except I do believe that getting people involved at a lower level will do the opposite of what you believe. People work up from t1 to t4 in fractals. In raids, you're currently thrown straight into t4. The only difference I've actually seen in what you can earn from this discussion IS COSMETIC in fractals. I would be more involved in the content, and even if the Devs implemented your easy mode, then according to you, none would try to interfere with your KP runs. You could chill out in LFG that much more.

According to you, you shouldn't even need KP, because everyone should just be doing PVP/WvW if they didn't want to do anything harder, right?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

18 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No you re-read, because you're clearly claiming ascended and legendary are functionally equivalent.

No, I don't, but they offer the same power and it takes less time and effort to get yourself multiple ascended builds than it takes to get legendaries.

Quote

Obviously I'm willing to put in the effort before hand,

So put an effort beforehand and get those ascended sets.

Or put an effort beforehand and learn the content needed to acquire legendary items if you want them. Whatever works for the player. Legendaries still optional, still not needed for endgame, still not easier to get than multiple full ascended builds.

 

Quote

as I'm currently working on some.

I have to admit that I don't care as it's irrelevant to this thread or anything that was written above.

 

Quote

Obviously I could stat swap my current gear if I wanted, are you saying I shouldn't try to be earning legendaries now?

Did I say that? When? You can do whatever you want, not sure where you came up with that conclusion from.

 

Quote

Is that where this is going? I guess raiders shouldn't be doing that either. We should just lock in all their envoy armor into the currently selected stats. I already stat swap when I need stuff.

...what? You done pretending "those bad raiders are just there to get you"? Hopefully, because at this point that's just random gibberish.

 

Quote

Okay, will do man!

Good job.

 

 

e:

18 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

According to you, you shouldn't even need KP, because everyone should just be doing PVP/WvW if they didn't want to do anything harder, right?

What? How is this "according to me"? They can do what they want, not sure where this -yet another- random claim came from, huh.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758
the message got longer while i was responding

[Firebeard.1746]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Did I say that? When? You can do whatever you want, not sure where you came up with that conclusion from.

Because you're claiming that a crafted +5 infusion is the same as a rare one functionally as your metaphor for why ascended and legendary are the same, when the only difference is cosmetic.

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because you're claiming that a crafted +5 infusion is the same as a rare one functionally as your metaphor for why ascended and legendary are the same, when the only difference is cosmetic.

For the average player -especially the ones that can't get into current raids/wvw/pvp- it iiiiiis "essentially the same", because they're not making/testing builds, they're not "min-maxing by themselves" (but simply scrape from the outside resources, where other players did the job for them -which is perfectly fine, but still), they're not "suddenly comming up with something" or "randomly catching a new playstyle on a fly without earlier preparation". Preperation that can easly include crafting another set of ascended items, which -again- is way faster than getting full legendary gear. "Your average player" sticks to a build they like and barely touch anything else. And if they do then... you know, easy ascended gear-up, as already repeating multiple times above.

Which part of that is hard to understand for you?

 

Glad you dropped 90% of your other random claims, it was getting weird. Also worth pointing out how you consistently keep proving this is all about legendary armor acquisition.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

25 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For the average player -especially the ones that can't get into current raids/wvw/pvp- it iiiiiis "essentially the same", because they're not making/testing builds, they're not "min-maxing by themselves" (but simply scrape from the outside resources, where other players did the job for them -which is perfectly fine, but still), they're not "suddenly comming up with something" or "randomly catching a new playstyle on a fly without earlier preparation". Preperation that can easly include crafting another set of ascended items, which -again- is way faster than getting full legendary gear. "Your average player" sticks to a build they like and barely touch anything else. And if they do then... you know, easy ascended gear-up, as already repeating multiple times above.

Which part of that is hard to understand for you?

It's hard to understand because ascended and legendary are not the same, +5 to stats in infusions are. You're injecting random information about casuals, when I'm already at that level gear-wise. Even if it's just to mess around in a solo DRM, you're basically telling me I shouldn't be going for legendaries because I'm already at that level There are useful things you can solo and being able to tweak builds on the fly is helpful, for that, like soloing hard content, which I've seen many people do in videos for various achievements/exploration. legendaries are very useful for WvW too for similar reasons of swapping on the fly. I intend to still WvW after I finish getting it, assuming I'm still playing. Because WvW actually IS fun. So yeah, it would definitely help me to have them eventually. You keep tossing me into your pre-conceived notions of what a casual is when I don't fit that mold. Many WvW streamers who exploit leggies don't either.

 

Quote

Glad you dropped 90% of your other random claims, it was getting weird. Also worth pointing out how you consistently keep proving this is all about legendary armor acquisition.

No I actually did just want more strikes. I doubled down on it because of you. When you kept saying casuals just want legendaries, the more I realized that there's plenty of non-PVE content that's easier than raids that gives legendary armor, so in my mind, it's non sequitur PVP players are getting better progression with less effort. I'm not advocating taking it away, but you're basically funneling anyone who wants legendaries out of PVE. The more you said that I kept asking myself "why is that crazy?:"

I'm starting to understand your fear though. You're worried about YOU. Hard-core raiders will still be there in their statics. YOu're just afraid if you have to PUG, then people will only PUG strike versions of raids, and that would be boring/terrifying for you. And you know what, that's okay ; ) and it's valid reason to be upset, feeling like you'd be left behind, no? I think my idea would actually get more participation. But you might be right, there might be fewer people jumping straight into the raid version from LFG. I think it'd grow the casual end and the hard-core end, but people pugging just to PuG it? nope. And that random chance for a full encounter with the raid might not come enough (not enough groups hit the performance level).

Edited May 8, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's hard to understand because ascended and legendary are not the same, +5 to stats in infusions are. You're injecting random information about casuals, when I'm already at that level gear-wise. Even if it's just to mess around in a solo DRM, you're basically telling me I shouldn't be going for legendaries because I'm already at that level There are useful things you can solo and being able to tweak builds is helpful, for soloing hard content, which I've seen many people do in videos for various achievements/exploration. legendaries are very useful for WvW too for similar reasons of swapping on the fly. I intend to still WvW after I finish getting it, assuming I'm still playing. Because WvW actually IS fun. So yeah, it would definitely help me to have them eventually. You keep tossing me into your pre-conceived notions of what a casual is when I don't fit that mold. Many WvW streamers who exploit leggies don't either.

I didn't say you shouldn't be going for legendaries and I already explained that, so stop lying, thanks.

Also I wasn't writing about you, so no, I don't "keep tossing you into notions of what a casual is when you don't fit that mold", not sure what you're talking about, if you think eveything's somehow targetted at you then it's not on me.

 

And you "would still wvw even after getting it", because you're there for WvW, not strictly for the armor. If someone goes for the raids (or wvw) "strictly for the armor", then that armor isn't "saving raids" (or wvw) in any way, especially if "we" want to make that acquisition easier. Without a change, slapping armor is not saving anything. It's an optional reward. That's it. You want to go for it? Then you do. You don't want to? Then you don't. Which doesn't magically makes it into me "telling you that you should or shouldn't go for it" like you try to pretend for some reason.

 

(and worth pointing out again: nice attempt at """saving raids""", totally not about lege acquisition methods)

 

Quote

No I actually did just want more strikes.

Cool, but this is a thread about raids, not strikes. If you want more strikes, then you'll need to create a "how to save strikes" thread, I think. (or look for one, if it exists)

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I didn't say you shouldn't be going for legendaries and I already explained that, so stop lying, thanks.

Also I wasn't writing about you, so no,I don't "keep tossing you into notions of what a casual is when you don't fit that mold", not sure what you're talking about, if you think eveything's somehow targetted at you then it's not on me.

 

(and worth pointing out again: nice attempt at """saving raids""", totally not about lege acquisition methods)

Tbh, I'm not following you at all on this portion of the thread thread. I don't see how being able to acquire functionally equivalent infusions from an easy mode and hard mode, some how equates to legendaries and ascended being the same therefore it's okay that  a harder piece  of content only rewards ascended against some more casual content. It's moot though, for your purposes, this argument means nothing, the impact of my suggestions is scary.

You just don't want to lose your PuG groups, and that's okay.

 

Quote

Cool, but this is a thread about raids, not strikes. If you want more strikes, then you'll need to create a "how to save strikes" thread, I think.

As I've said I believe it will increase hardcore participation too, by getting more people involved, It's still about raids and increasing raid participation. The two aren't supposed to be completely separate, one was intended as a stepping stone into the other.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

As I've said I believe it will increase hardcore participation too, by getting more people involved, It's still about raids and increasing raid participation. The two aren't supposed to be completely separate, one was intended as a stepping stone into the other.

As I said, it won't.

 

Edited in above while you were responding:

And you "would still wvw even after getting it", because you're there for WvW, not strictly for the armor. If someone goes for the raids (or wvw) "strictly for the armor", then that armor isn't "saving raids" (or wvw) in any way, especially if "we" want to make that acquisition easier. Without a change, slapping armor is not saving anything. It's an optional reward. That's it. You want to go for it? Then you do. You don't want to? Then you don't. Which doesn't magically makes it into me "telling you that you should or shouldn't go for it" like you try to pretend for some reason.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

dited in above while you were responding:

And you "would still wvw even after getting it", because you're there for WvW, not strictly for the armor. If someone goes for the raids (or wvw) "strictly for the armor", then that armor isn't "saving raids" (or wvw) in any way, especially if "we" want to make that acquisition easier. Without a change, slapping armor is not saving anything. It's an optional reward. That's it. You want to go for it? Then you do. You don't want to? Then you don't. Which doesn't magically makes it into me "telling you that you should or shouldn't go for it" like you try to pretend for some reason.

Well I would do the strike versions and still tutor people in mechanics given my play styles, I like strikes too and I've done them on and off even though they're not really that useful for me, so this would potentially increase the number of people like me to help new people get in.

[Sobx.1758]

 

29 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You just don't want to lose your PuG groups, and that's okay.

lmao, what? Weren't you the one complaining that it should be puggable (it already is, to be clear), but now it's somehow about "me not wanting to lose my pug groups"(??), even though a few pages ago you were trying to tell me people need statics for raids and that's for sure the way I'm playing (according to you, but not in reality, to be clear)?

What is this sentence even supposed to be now all of the sudden?

And does it mean that your claim "it should be puggable" was just another attempt at pretending you do it for the [overal or raiding] community instead of simply for yourself, but now that it didn't work, they're suddenly... "my pug groups"? I thgouht the point was to be (as in "making it easier to get into them") the part of them in the first place??

 

...and if it's supposed to be "a stepping stone" then you shouldn't have anything against training mode without lege acquisition, as it would allow people to learn the raids easier and then step into actual raiding, helping with filling up the squads. The alternative is just letting people grind out easy mode and abandon the mode, which, again, does nothing for saving raids so it's irrelevant for saving raids and subsequentially for this thread. It is relevant for you wanting another legendary acquisition, but again, this is not the thread about that, so don't be surprised people interested in actually answering the question of this thread won't support your easier/different lege acquisition ideas.

 

20 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Well I would do the strike versions

Irrelevant, wrong thread.

 

20 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

still tutor people in mechanics given my play styles

But you can "tutor" people in raids, not sure what the problem is.

("tutor people in mechanics given my playstyles"? What playstyle is it?)

 

20 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

so this would potentially increase the number of people like me to help new people get in.

But you're not talking about raids, so irrelveant.

Oh wait, you mean you'd play strictly easy/training mode for legendary armor and you're trying to leverage it by saying during that [your legendary acquisition] time you could teach people and THAT'S saving raids now? Ouch.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

34 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

lmao, what? Weren't you the one complaining that it should be puggable (it already is, to be clear), but now it's somehow about "me not wanting to lose my pug groups"(??), even though a few pages ago you were trying to tell me people need statics for raids and that's for sure the way I'm playing (according to you, but not in reality, to be clear)?

What is this sentence even supposed to be now all of the sudden?

And does it mean that your claim "it should be puggable" was just another attempt at pretending you do it for the [overal or raiding] community instead of simply for yourself, but now that it didn't work, they're suddenly... "my pug groups"? I thgouht the point was to be (as in "making it easier to get into them") the part of them in the first place??

 

...and if it's supposed to be "a stepping stone" then you shouldn't have anything against training mode without lege acquisition, as it would allow people to learn the raids easier and then step into actual raiding, helping with filling up the squads. The alternative is just letting people grind out easy mode and abandon the mode, which, again, does nothing for saving raids so it's irrelevant for saving raids and subsequentially for this thread. It is relevant for you wanting another legendary acquisition, but again, this is not the thread about that, so don't be surprised people interested in actually answering the question of this thread won't support your easier/different lege acquisition ideas.

So you're thinking raids from just the perspective of the raid, like the hard-core one. IMO if there's a strike version, people are still engaged in raiding and it's still useful from a development standpoint, even if they're doing an easier one. Saving raids involved making it worth doing for people across the spectrum, because if you funnel everyone who wants leggies, but not your high-end raiding into PVP, then they're not engaging the player base and content in those areas becomes more worth it from a dev standpoint.

And in my solution, I would still be doing the full raid version when my strike passed at the right skill level and I believe anyone who did them would. I'm repeating myself at this point.

 

Quote

 

But you can "tutor" people in raids, not sure what the problem is.

("tutor people in mechanics given my playstyles"? What playstyle is it?)

 

A cost/benefit analysis of fun and progress that I'm doing for myself. I might raid train occaisionally, but it will remain as infrequently as I do now, which I don't see as valuable (once since engaging in raids over 2 years ago). Really I bite a little off and walk away as it comes to raids right now, and no amount logic changes my feelings about what I'm doing and how it feels. I'd probably still engage your raids too, but only when I was really bored and feeling like a glutton for punishment.

 

Quote

Oh wait, you mean you'd play strictly easy/training mode for legendary armor and you're trying to leverage it by saying during that [your legendary acquisition] time you could teach people and THAT'S saving raids now? Ouch.

I've already covered this many times, saying I'd do a harder version when my group was capable where I explained why I don't believe raids are sanely puggable for me in their current state. Any sane group would because it gives rewards faster in my solution, speed of acquisition works great in other forms of content, it will work here.

Really what I'm seeing here is you attacking me in cyclical arguments to defend your non-sequitur opinion that people doing harder content than sPVP/WvW shouldn't be rewarded accordingly.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I've already covered this many times, saying I'd do a harder version when my group was capable where I explained why I don't believe raids are sanely puggable for me in their current state. Any sane group would because it gives rewards faster in my solution, speed of acquisition works great in other forms of content, it will work here.

 

Sooo... pretty much just what I wrote? You would keep farming easy mode strictly for the sake of lege acquisition, but if from time to time you happened to deem your group worthy of completing regular raids then you'd repeat the process (or continue, w/e) in normal raids (while making that decision for the other 9 people as well I guess?) and that's somehow the way to increase the raiding population and subsequentially saving raids. Somehow doesn't seem like that does much for the general raiding population/pugs/squads and your claims are false, because without a change you're just here to argue and bait for "another lege armor acquisition method" while pretending it's about the gamemode.

 

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really what I'm seeing here is you attacking me in cyclical arguments to defend your non-sequitur opinion that people doing harder content than sPVP/WvW shouldn't be rewarded accordingly.

Yeah, sure, anyone disagreeing with you is automatically "attacking you" (or like you called it in another thread: "trolling") -maybe stop playing a victim any time you talk yourself into a corner or have nothing else to add.

 

 

"defend your non-sequitur opinion that people doing harder content than sPVP/WvW shouldn't be rewarded accordingly." -oh look, another completely random comment that has nothing to do with what I wrote above.

I think you might just keep forgetting what this thread is supposed to be about (and it's not "give me more legendary armor acquisition methods"), which is why you're so confused about people disagreeing with your motivations here.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[maddoctor.2738]

Giving a way to acquire legendary armor from a different difficulty tier of Raids isn't a solution that will increase Raid participation. Unless your goal is to increase Raid participation temporarily, and then have this discussion again in the future. I always thought that a common argument against Raid population was that many went into Raids for the legendary armor and then left, so how is adding legendary armor into easier Raids going to increase Raid participation?

 

Furthermore, all this talk about Legendary Armor is meaningless when you consider that it only applies to HOT Raids. POF Raids have no legendary armor, and any future Raids aren't gonna have a new  legendary armor either, so it's again a moot point discussing this.

Edited May 8, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Giving a way to acquire legendary armor from a different difficulty tier of Raids isn't a solution that will increase Raid participation. Unless your goal is to increase Raid participation temporarily, and then have this discussion again in the future. I always thought that a common argument against Raid population was that many went into Raids for the legendary armor and then left, so how is adding legendary armor into easier Raids going to increase Raid participation?

Not on its own, you're right about it. It would be used to "jump-start" the easy mode, and gt it rolling. After that, both modes would need some longterm, repeatable rewards to keep them afloat once the initial bait runs out. Those other rewards should not be good enough to bring people to the mode, but they should be good enough to keep in those that are already here and don't dislike the mode too much.

 

4 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

Furthermore, all this talk about Legendary Armor is meaningless when you consider that it only applies to HOT Raids. POF Raids have no legendary armor, and any future Raids aren't gonna have a new  legendary armor either, so it's again a moot point discussing this.

Yes, there should be some long-term rewards attached to those as well. The ring apparently wasn't enough (although i still think that the loss of popularity was at least partly not due to the armor vs ring case, but because wings 5-7 were simply less appealing on their own to a large number of players. Personally i haven't done wing 7, but wings 5 and 6 were for me always at the bottom of the scale in terms of how i liked those, and i know that at least about wing 5 i wasn't alone in that).

 

Perhaps some way to use LIs/LDs/magnetites/gaetings to obtain legendary components (and not only for the armor and ring, but as an alternative path for other already existing legendaries)? Or just flat out exchange those for liquid wealth (as a permanent solution with relatively stable value, not through buying items for sale on TP that will depreciate in value over time)?

[maddoctor.2738]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not on its own, you're right about it. It would be used to "jump-start" the easy mode, and gt it rolling. After that, both modes would need some longterm, repeatable rewards to keep them afloat once the initial bait runs out. Those other rewards should not be good enough to bring people to the mode, but they should be good enough to keep in those that are already here and don't dislike the mode too much.

 

The difference between the modes is that normal/CM Raids are also being run for the challenge and because they are difficult. Just like how "back in the day" there was a community dedicated to speed running and solo running dungeon paths, when they weren't even profitable anymore (especially solo runs). That's an extra incentive that won't exist if the easier version is like "regular GW2" in terms of difficulty. This means an easy mode probably needs more reward incentive than the normal version, as those running it "for the enjoyment" are bound to be much less than those running the higher versions. Fractals are enough of a proof of that, as the majority of runs are on T4 for the daily, and of course the recommended ones.

 

Quote

Yes, there should be some long-term rewards attached to those as well. The ring apparently wasn't enough (although i still think that the loss of popularity was at least partly not due to the armor vs ring case, but because wings 5-7 were simply less appealing on their own to a large number of players. Personally i haven't done wing 7, but wings 5 and 6 were for me always at the bottom of the scale in terms of how i liked those, and i know that at least about wing 5 i wasn't alone in that).

 

I haven't run Wing 7 either and only done Wing 6 a few times. But that's because at that point the Raid squads I was in were already shattering as a lot of players got bored with the Raid release cadence and left to do something else, either in GW2 or moved to different games that have a better release cadence for this type of content.

 

Edit: also, the way they treated Joko, and Kourna in general, in Long Live the Lich  caused at least 2 members of my Raid squad (long term Guild Wars fans) to leave the game. Something that had nothing to do with Raiding itself, but rather the direction of the entire game.

 

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Perhaps some way to use LIs/LDs/magnetites/gaetings to obtain legendary components (and not only for the armor and ring, but as an alternative path for other already existing legendaries)? Or just flat out exchange those for liquid wealth (as a permanent solution with relatively stable value, not through buying items for sale on TP that will depreciate in value over time)?

 

Yes. Once you get the Legendary items, LI/LD can only be used to acquire more ascended items, but at that point you will be swimming in ascended items anyway, making them really worthless. I think exchanging LI/LD for materials, like T6 materials (similar to laurels) and other materials used in Legendary crafting would be a good idea. Because even after you get the precursors by doing the Raid achievements, you will still need to do a LOT of farming (outside Raids) to complete the items

Edited May 8, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[mindcircus.1506]

20 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

I think exchanging LI/LD for materials, like T6 materials (similar to laurels) and other materials used in Legendary crafting would be a good idea.

One of the few actual good ideas in this thread

Some kind of Box that offered similar RNG returns as the Unbound Magic packets.

Edited May 8, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[Firebeard.1746]

10 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Giving a way to acquire legendary armor from a different difficulty tier of Raids isn't a solution that will increase Raid participation. Unless your goal is to increase Raid participation temporarily, and then have this discussion again in the future. I always thought that a common argument against Raid population was that many went into Raids for the legendary armor and then left, so how is adding legendary armor into easier Raids going to increase Raid participation?

In my mind the easy mode would be a lower drip rate, so people would be engaged for longer. That gives more opportunity for them to get bored enough to try the harder modes & get involved in the community at large. And for the record, this worked for me in WoW. I got tired of LFR and tried harder things later. And when I raided in BFA later, I wasn't raiding for the gear at all, just for kicks and giggles as I would do Mythic+ as my primary gearing method.

But maybe you're right, maybe raids on their own aren't fun enough because I kind of feel like the argument people will only do easy mode for legendaries is saying the content doesn't stand well on its own. I know people who actually do enjoy raiding, but they enjoy the whole 9 yards -> training, etc. They're not in LFG asking for KP and I don't know if they represent the population.

If this is the case, there's no value in an easy mode at all. Or the mode at all unless there a MAJOR refactor of all the encounters.

 

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I think exchanging LI/LD for materials, like T6 materials (similar to laurels) and other materials used in Legendary crafting would be a good idea. Because even after you get the precursors by doing the Raid achievements, you will still need to do a LOT of farming (outside Raids) to complete the items

I already see raids as super profitable that, in and of itself contributes to the only other legendaries that aren't tied to a specific content (the gen1-2 weapons) as stated earlier on this thread, you could sell your experience by carrying people for a hefty coin, and you wouldn't even need to charge much to make it competitive against the best farm trains in the game.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[maddoctor.2738]

18 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If this is the case, there's no value in an easy mode at all.

 

Well this is a game that the majority of the population is fixated on rewards, so why would those playing an easy mode be any different? The instant Istan rewards were nerfed it became a dead zone. The instant Auric Basin rewards were nerfed it became a 1-2 squad situation instead of 20+. The exact same will apply to an easier mode for Raids, players will come, earn their rewards, then go do the best farm available, this is Guild Wars 2 we are talking about.
 

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 I kind of feel like the argument people will only do easy mode for legendaries is saying the content doesn't stand well on its own.

 

 

Talking about an easier mode, yes it won't stand well on its own, because it's going to attract players that are grinding/farming other parts of the game already. An easier mode is gonna be run by those running meta events, not those interested in challenging instanced content, so there will be conflict. For the actual raiders it stands very well on its own, as those are not running the content for the rewards, they wouldn't be doing multiple training in a week otherwise.

 

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I already see raids as super profitable that

 

And I don't. Raids are not profitable in reality but in your twisted version of everyone selling Raids, or running optimal full clears every Monday, yes they could be super profitable. But that's not true for everyone, or even the majority, of those running Raids so it's not an argument.

[Firebeard.1746]

16 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

Well this is a game that the majority of the population is fixated on rewards, so why would those playing an easy mode be any different? The instant Istan rewards were nerfed it became a dead zone. The instant Auric Basin rewards were nerfed it became a 1-2 squad situation instead of 20+. The exact same will apply to an easier mode for Raids, players will come, earn their rewards, then go do the best farm available, this is Guild Wars 2 we are talking about.
 

 

Talking about an easier mode, yes it won't stand well on its own, because it's going to attract players that are grinding/farming other parts of the game already. An easier mode is gonna be run by those running meta events, not those interested in challenging instanced content, so there will be conflict. For the actual raiders it stands very well on its own, as those are not running the content for the rewards, they wouldn't be doing multiple training in a week otherwise.

 

 

And I don't. Raids are not profitable in reality but in your twisted version of everyone selling Raids, or running optimal full clears every Monday, yes they could be super profitable. But that's not true for everyone, or even the majority, of those running Raids so it's not an argument.

Well if you go to EU fast farming raids are only beat by farmtrains of specific comps and require way more people and more time. ANd I don't think they are even using speed clear times. I'm seeing 30 mins for W1 and W7.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[skus.4527]

18 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Well this is a game that the majority of the population is fixated on rewards, so why would those playing an easy mode be any different? The instant Istan rewards were nerfed it became a dead zone. The instant Auric Basin rewards were nerfed it became a 1-2 squad situation instead of 20+. The exact same will apply to an easier mode for Raids, players will come, earn their rewards, then go do the best farm available, this is Guild Wars 2 we are talking about.

 

Why not also have daily raid rewards? "W1 Boss Kill" as a daily chest achieve, just like with pvp, wvw, fractals, etc, is a lot more manageable when it's an easier encounter overall. Even if many players got the permeant rewards in raids, they'd re-run the content for a daily chest or similar reward on an ongoing basis, so long as the effort involved isn't completely disproportionate to the rewards as it would be if they tried to implement the daily chest idea on normal. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by skus.4527