Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

[Malitias.8453]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Can you show me an example of a free to play MMO in 2005?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games

Sorry I changed the post less than a minute after I posted it, so this isn't really the conversation I wanted to have.

Here IS the conversation. Free to play doesn't mean you never pay according to Wikipedia. You're expected to pay for content anyway. If this game is buy to play which many people still feel it is, then it's not pay to win.

If this game was FULLY FREE you might consider it pay to win.

But the idea that free to play is the same is free is part of the issue. According to Wikipedia it's not. 

The real answer, as I've said above is this.

This game requires you to buy expansions but the cash shop is not pay to win. You can make up your own minds whether having to buy expansions makes a game pay to win but my money is on the idea that it's not for most people.

 

Edited: Wrong word. I wrote free to play instead of pay to win

Edited May 21, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Deadly.3298]

All of the fanboys in this thread aside, gw2 is pay to win in many ways. There are achievements, fair pvp, skill-based things, and titles and stuff you cant just pay for however much of the gear and grinding and even achievements can be circumvented in many ways by buying gold and stuff through the gem store. I'd say it has pay to win aspects but wouldn't classify as outright p2w.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Deadly.3298

[Imba.9451]

1 hour ago, Deadly.3298 said:

All of the fanboys in this thread aside, gw2 is pay to win in many ways. There are achievements, fair pvp, skill-based things, and titles and stuff you cant just pay for however much of the gear and grinding and even achievements can be circumvented in many ways by buying gold and stuff through the gem store. I'd say it has pay to win aspects but wouldn't classify as outright p2w.

Completely agree. Thats what I have been advocating.

We can all ride the dead horse of semantics. Because thats what it ultimately comes down to when discussing p2w. But rather than Finding excuses how Something that is, by definition of the word used (PAY to WIN), indeed p2w, we should stop seeing p2w as a label that equally puts a bad mark on a game thats been branded with.

Because it's not equal.

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, Deadly.3298 said:

All of the fanboys in this thread aside, gw2 is pay to win in many ways. There are achievements, fair pvp, skill-based things, and titles and stuff you cant just pay for however much of the gear and grinding and even achievements can be circumvented in many ways by buying gold and stuff through the gem store. I'd say it has pay to win aspects but wouldn't classify as outright p2w.

But what do you actually win?  How does what is done in this example beat other players and win the game?  How does it make me lose?

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

Completely agree. Thats what I have been advocating.

We can all ride the dead horse of semantics. Because thats what it ultimately comes down to when discussing p2w. But rather than Finding excuses how Something that is, by definition of the word used (PAY to WIN), indeed p2w, we should stop seeing p2w as a label that equally puts a bad mark on a game thats been branded with.

Because it's not equal.

This is my point. The term pay to win has actually changed definitions over the years and anyone who was there ten, fifteen years ago likely has a very specific notion about what pay to win means and it's not this.. The term needs to be replaced by terms that actually mean something other than you have to buy the expansions to get elite specs.  Most MMO players I know expect to have to buy expansions and wouldn't consider that pay to win.

Can I buy power in the cash shop that's better than what I can reasonably earn in game? Nah. So from my point of view, not pay to win.  We can say the words. It'll simply mislead a lot of people.

[Kondor.2904]

23 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

But what do you actually win?  How does what is done in this example beat other players and win the game?  How does it make me lose?

You win the fashion war.

In games with vertical progression gear = win. In games with horizontal progression skins = win. Sure, that can be subjective, but then again anything can be subjective. Still doesn't change the fact that skins is the only thing in guild wars  that can differentiate you from others. So from that point of view, one can say gw2 does look like p2w.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

You win the fashion war.

In games with vertical progression gear = win. In games with horizontal progression skins = win. Sure, that can be subjective, but then again anything can be subjective. Still doesn't change the fact that skins is the only thing in guild wars  that can differentiate you from others. So from that point of view, one can say gw2 does look like p2w.

No ... this is a continuously absurd sentiment. IF that's true, explain to me how that war is won. Explain how that war is lost as well. Saying it's 'subjective' is just a cop out for having no idea what you mean. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kondor.2904]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No ... this is a continuously absurd sentiment. IF that's true, explain to me how that war is won. Saying it's 'subjective' is just a cop out for having no idea what you mean. 

There's no other war in guild wars, that's the point. You do not compete with anyone for anything in PvE. So technically the only thing that can state you're better than someone else is the rarity of your skins. 

By subjective I meant that some might say, they don't care about your skins or how rare they are. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

There's no other war in guild wars, that's the point. You do not compete with anyone for anything in PvE. So technically the only thing that can state you're better than someone else is the rarity of your skins. 

That doesn't make GW2 pay2win though ... so again, if people are going to say it's 'fashion' wars to justify calling GW2 P2W ... then explain how that war is won and lost. 

 

Are you saying that the number of rare skins you have makes you 'win'? That seems like a COMPLETELY arbitrary metric. 

 

I think you make the point, but you do it for GW2 NOT being P2W because there is no win ... you just do stuff and have fun and build a character.  Anyone trying to make a point that GW2 is P2W just has some axe to grind somehow ... or maybe they forgot what gaming was about at some point. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

42 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

But what do you actually win?  How does what is done in this example beat other players and win the game?  How does it make me lose?

Since your question stays the same, so does my answer: You buy stuff to WIN the PvE content.

[Kondor.2904]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make GW2 pay2win though ... so again, if people are going to say it's 'fashion' wars to justify calling GW2 P2W ... then explain how that war is won and lost. 

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this perspective. You win the fashion war by having better, rare skins.

So following that logic, let's say, I have a raid trinket skin + chak egg sac infusion + the latest gemstore set for 2900 gems, and you have common gear skin from the trading post for 50g in total. I'm better than you because I have the "best" skins in the game, and you don't. I "win" this fashion war.

And I can win it by simply swiping my credit card, purchasing the amount of gems I need to pay raid guild to carry me through the raid wings so I can craft my trinket, I purchase chak egg sac for 8k gold (maybe even several), because I exchanged gems for it, and I bought the ice reaver set for 2900 gems too.

That's the same concept if you were to play regular vertical progression p2w game, and you purchased actual gear from gemstore. But since gear doesn't matter in this game with horizontal progression, you purchase skins instead. Hope I made it clear enough. 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this perspective. You win the fashion war by having better, rare skins.

It's not hard to understand ... the problem is that your definition is the one you think is right simply to justify the idea GW2 is P2W. That's a contrived justification. Again, you aren't going to subjectively tell us how GW2 is P2W ... because it's not factual. There is no win and there isn't any lose either. There isn't a war to pay to win to begin with. There isn't any fight with anyone or anything over 'fashion'. It's just a contrived idea so people can complain about being able to purchase items in the GS. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

2 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this perspective. You win the fashion war by having better, rare skins.

So following that logic, let's say, I have a raid trinket skin + chak egg sac infusion + the latest gemstore set for 2900 gems, and you have common gear skin from the trading post for 50g in total. I'm better than you because I have the "best" skins in the game, and you don't. I "win" this fashion war.

And I can win it by simply swiping my credit card, purchasing the amount of gems I need to pay raid guild to carry me through the raid wings so I can craft my trinket, I purchase chak egg sac for 8k gold (maybe even several), because I exchanged gems for it, and I bought the ice reaver set for 2900 gems too.

That's the same concept if you were to play regular vertical progression p2w game, and you purchased actual gear from gemstore. But since gear doesn't matter in this game with horizontal progression, you purchase skins instead. Hope I made it clear enough. 

I actually disagree with this sentiment as well. Fashion is subjective. And considering there is a huge amount of skins freely available wich you can make amazing outfits with, I'd argue that you do have quite a good shot at creating good fashion.

 

However, you ability to tackle certain parts of the game (high fractals, raids) is gear dependant. In order to WIN, you need good gear. Wich you can buy.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Gamora.1584]

Nope, it's not. What in-game benefit do I receive for owning a fancy skin? Nothing. Even if you want to argue for lvl80 boosts being a benefit, what extra does it exactly give the gamers? You can reach lvl80 regardless. You do not get better gear just because you used a lvl80 booster. They do not put lvl80 or an exclusive stat behind that paywall that makes you unkillable or anything. It saves you time but that's not p2w.

[kharmin.7683]

37 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

You win the fashion war.

In games with vertical progression gear = win. In games with horizontal progression skins = win. Sure, that can be subjective, but then again anything can be subjective. Still doesn't change the fact that skins is the only thing in guild wars  that can differentiate you from others. So from that point of view, one can say gw2 does look like p2w.

I don't believe that anyone can win in any subjective contest.  Having a subjectively "better" looking toon than anyone else does not win the game nor cause any other player to lose the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

If buying cosmetic items with cash is pay 2 win, then it begs the question: which online game is NOT pay 2 win? If all online games are pay 2 win (by that definition) then that extra attribute serves no purpose anymore. Just call them online games and be done with it.

[Kondor.2904]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not hard to understand ... the problem is that your definition is the one you think is right simply to justify the idea GW2 is P2W. That's a contrived justification. Again, you aren't going to subjectively tell us how GW2 is P2W ... because it's not factual. There is no win and there isn't any lose either. There isn't a war to pay to win to begin with. There isn't any fight with anyone or anything over 'fashion'. It's just a contrived idea so people can complain about being able to purchase items in the GS. 

Well, that's just, like, your opinion. It is as factual as your definition of gw2 not being p2w. That's why I stated several times that it's just one point of view, and it's subjective. 

 

32 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

I actually disagree with this sentiment as well. Fashion is subjective. And considering there is a huge amount of skins freely available wich you can make amazing outfits with, I'd argue that you do have quite a good shot at creating good fashion.

 

However, you ability to tackle certain parts of the game (high fractals, raids) is gear dependant. In order to WIN, you need good gear. Wich you can buy.

Fashion might be subjective, the rarity of skins however is not tho. I also mentioned that. And yes, you can techincally buy all the gear in the game for gems->gold too. But I wouldn't include anything gear related to the discussion the "best" gear in guild wars is literally handed to you almost for free. And it's not like the content is so hard or gets harder every release, so you wouldn't be able to complete it in the exotics gear from 80lvl booster.

10 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I don't believe that anyone can win in any subjective contest.  Having a subjectively "better" looking toon than anyone else does not win the game nor cause any other player to lose the game.

Yes, looks are subjective, but rarity of the skin is not. And if you don't agree that with best looks = win, then you can also purchase the rarest skins in the game with gems effectively. Same thing how people compete in WoW for the mount skins. But like I said, it's a matter of perspective. 

But just to clarify, it's not like I'm insisting that GW2 is p2w, I'm just pointing out that from a  certain perspective it can retain p2w traits, since there's nothing to compete for in this game except for the skins.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

Well, that's just, like, your opinion.

Except it's not an opinion that you aren't going to factually show GW2 is P2W because there is a 'fashion war'. Again ... if there is a war, who are you fighting? Why are YOU the one that defines the winning condition for that fight? There isn't a war; the idea that some war exists to complain about GW2 being P2W is completely absurd. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kondor.2904]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except it's not an opinion that you aren't going to factually show GW2 is P2W because there is a 'fashion war'. Again ... if there is a war, who are you fighting? 

I already presented my factual explanation as to why gw2 can be considered a p2w, if you don't agree with it, without making any counter-arguments and just saying "it's wrong and non-factual", it's your opinion. But ok, whatever, if you don't understand the point I was trying to make, I don't really want to keep trying to prove you something, while you keep repeating the same question I've already answered several times. It's all cool 🙂

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Kondor.2904 said:

I already presented my factual explanation as to why gw2 can be considered a p2w, 

Except it's not factual. It's based on your subjective and self-made definitions. 

[killerkram.5129]

If you define winning as getting more money then yes. More bag slots, more bank slots, infinite gathering tools with buffs, warps to exclusive areas that make crafting more convenient, max level boosts, instant access to merchants/black lion merchant from anywhere, instant repair from anywhere (this one is really stretching, who even uses this? maybe raiders?) and so on. Granted you can get all of this without paying money by converting gold to gems then using those gems to buy these items but if I throw my credit card at the gem store and do the same thing as someone who didn't and we both do the same stuff for the same amount of time then yes I have more gold. In PVP this really doesn't do anything since everyone is equalized and you don't get an advantage no matter how much money you throw at the computer screen. At the end of the day though it really doesn't matter. Sure another player has more money than me but I play casually, don't buy any of these items and I probably still have plenty of gold. 

 

Even then, open world PVE is largely cooperative so are you even winning if you have an advantage over other players in gold farm? You are not exactly winning. If convenience the player is considered winning then sure this is pay to win, but what are you winning at? Inventory management?

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Most of the convenience items in gemstore which are bought with gems can be bought with in-game gold converted to gems

 

Maybe some players consider winning the fashion contest held by streamers and guilds as actual game and whoever has the latest and costliest outfit/skin to be winners and thus buying cool skins from gemstore and tp is viewed as pay to win in their eyes/mind....

 

Weird ppl

So, I'm gonna post some weird statement down below that makes no sense...

 

It's like someone participating in a running race and subjectively considers that eating a live frog is winning the 100 m dash sprinting race

Edited May 21, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[kharmin.7683]

25 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

It's like someone participating in a running race and subjectively considers that eating a live frog is winning the 100 m dash sprinting race

No, I think that the argument is more like running a race and subjectively considering oneself the winner of the race because one bought the most bling looking shoes and running outfit.

Edited May 21, 2021 by kharmin.7683

[Malitias.8453]

33 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

No, I think that the argument is more like running a race and subjectively considering oneself the winner of the race because one bought the most bling looking shoes and running outfit.

Except there's no race..