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@Virdo.1540 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Well you've been around long enough to know for a fact that it isn't Pay2Win. So either you're trolling, or something is on your mind that caused you to arrive at this conclusion. So, which is it?

the OP has 4 stars next to their arenanet id which indicates that yes, they've been a pretty active forum goer -- so i assume it's the former, they're just trolling lol

Ive seen a discussion today in the LA map chat, with many different opinions.

The actual situation is that it depends on the current balance patch, game mode and profession

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Some of the things i observed reading this thread:   1. Buying the full game when the game has what basically ammounts to a huge free demo is pay to win. 2. You can win at fashion wars

You can get into the game, cash up and be lvl 80 and fully equipped on your first day. I don't care if people try to stick the literal meaning of "pay to win" down somebodies throat, because in e

If GW2 is P2W, then I'm definitely doing something wrong. I have all the convenience items from the gem shop, but still can't kill another player in WvW.   Do you think it is too late to get

@"Raknar.4735" said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

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@Touchme.1097 said:I have played in P2W games before, it's not fun when you can solo 100% of the content I have to admit

that's when the said p2w game is pve-focused... on a pvp-focused/openworld pvp game, the pay-to-win is three-folds more toxic (super not fun) in comparison even if you try engaging in the p2w yourself - like as long as the other person has spent more money than you, they're more likely to one shot you before you can even try defending yourself out in the open world and they just blaze past you like you were the ambient/grey-tier creatures in GW2 lol.

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@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Xpacs selling especs are somewhat pay2win, i would argue build templates are in wvw in some cases. Templates used to be a bigger issue when cfbs could pretrap as dh and switch to another build with the traps preserved.

That's a pretty interesting point. Most definitely the ability to swap to a build instantly given the situation in WvW offers significant advantage to players. I think the fact that everyone gets some templates for free though addresses that sufficiently as well. Not sure if that's good thinking on Anet's part or just luck, but still.

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The closest to pay-to-win mechanics is bag slots, material storage, bank expansions, boosters etc. These are not pay to win, however they are big QoL things that make meta events, farming, etc. at the high end much more enjoyable. I do feel that Anet does this on purpose to push purchases of these items with how drops are structured, and hope Anet doesn't decide to include more "broken" mechanics that are fixed by "gem store purchases". With that said, this doesn't make content inaccessible, less fun maybe, but not inaccessible. So they may be "pay for fun and convenience" rather than "pay to win", but I don't think they ever crossed the line just because being level 80 with full legendary or whatever doesn't really mean winning gw2 as the game is mainly co-op except for specific competitive modes which rely much less on gear, level, etc.

Expansions are content, and sure they come with big advantages, but they are unlocked through the completion of content in said expansions.

I'd argue that GW2 is not really a real free to play game (because expansion content is GW2), but it is definitely not a pay to win game.

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No. The store has some convenience items, but nothing of real value. Sure, you can buy unlimited use harvesting and salvaging tools - but that is not a big deal. The weapons & armor have to be obtained in game, all the store has is skins (which are useless). You cannot even buy the required materials in the store, you have to collect them yourself or buy them from another player.

If you could buy top notch gear, and mounts, directly in the store - then it would be a valid concern.

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It isn't major, because you cannot change builds in combat, but some classes can break combat if they're about to lose to swap builds in WvW. You can also lay down traps or boon and swap builds. Very minor, but it's there.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

Vindictus provides some PvE examples(this was from back when I played it which was years ago so things may have changed). There were There were instances that you can only run once a day but you can pay to reset and run it multiple times. An even clearer example is a team wipe would equal failing the instance(and using up the 1/day limit) but there were cash shop items that lets you either ress yourself or the whole team.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

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@Fueki.4753 said:Yes, it objectively is pay to win.Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

Then all games are pay to win, because you get power in every game when you buy an expansion. WoW gives you higher levels. Objectively in WoW if you meet a higher level character on a open world PvP server you're going to get wrecked. Expansions never counted for P2W, and if they did, every MMO would be pay to win and the term would be meaningless.,

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That 8 people that at the time of writing this post, have voted for "yes" must have never seen a truelly p2w title, in their life.....

To provide some examples:Already mentioned in this thread: Black Desert Online, quick summary for those who don;t want to click YT links:

  1. non-consensual open-world PvP exists,
  2. PvP is determined first and foremost by gear and level in there. If you have properly enchanted BiS gear, you can do all kinds of blunders against oponent who isn't quite there yet, and they will still be unable to do anything against you, similary if you happen to have 4 or 5 levels of advantage as well.
  3. Gear enhancing is costly process with alot of rng involved, so to stay competitive you need to be able to outgrind everyone else, which means you need good farming spot, and need to be able to kill anyone that comes to that spot with intent of fighting over it,
  4. Pearl store items contain real bonuses that will be borderline impossible to obtain for non-paying user, and the only way to do so, gives more emporement to the one spending rl cash, doe to ability to stay ahead of silver farming curve by getting additional silver through buying and reselling pearl-store items, or just buying and melting them outfits (literaly): bonuses include but are not limited to: loot autopickup, automatic detection of potentially hostile players, automatic use of potions, character stats improvements, access to bank/marketplace without having to talk to an NPC (first and last one super important for farming efficiency)
  5. Bonus points, BDO does not have the nice feature of gw2, where loot is determined solely on per player basis - which means that in terms of farming if you don't have sufficient amount of pets to pickup loot for you, people will steal your loot

So in short, you have a game where to stay competitive, you need to outgrind your opponents, where premium shop is exclusive source of multiple bonuses to that aspect.

Another Example: Air Rivals (went kinda bankrupt and re-released under old title of Ace Online, earlier releases under names of Ace Online, Space Cowboys Online)similar deal, Open world non-consensual PvP (whole game is basically built around conflict between two factions) and gear+levels comes above anything else in terms of who wins engagement. So not only they sold actuall gear (that was arguably best best gear to start upgrading from for couple vehicles/classes) in the premium shop, they also sold premium accounts that meant you would get experience faster (remember level difference matters there), but also gear enhancing process included static attribute enhancement (for example weapon refire upgrade would reduce delay between firing weapons by same 0.1s each) and a soft cap of 5-6 upgrades - above that any upgrade attempt had a risk of destroying item completely irreversably. And of course premium shop had item to prevent that from happening. Turned out interestingly, when all the guides online said that getting +9 guns is probably limit of what's sane to do, and then couple rich kids decided to swipe credit card and got themselves +11, and started obliterating whole squadrons of "mere mortals" with +9s, solo.

As for that guy who claimed that elite specs being sold with expansions, in all fairness and with all due respect, that claim is laughtable.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

(For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

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First issue in answering this question is answering what is pay to win.This means you have to describe what winning is.When you look at competitive gameplay, there is nothing legal where you can buy your success in any way. This definitly leans to not pay to win.When you look at open world game play. The first thing to note is that it is cooperative. We all work together to a common goal. That some people are more succesfull and effective is besides the point. So this one leans to not pay to win as well.Now people might make some stranger competitions in their head. Like how quick you can gain wealth in GW2. So let's focus on this. The most lucrative ways to gain gold are not pay to win. There are some minor advantages that can be bought, but they really do not make the difference in the bigger scale of gold making.The last is what people consider end game and fashion wars.The first question is how you can win a vanity contest? I have been judge in several "best looking" competition in GW2 and I never ruled out Gemstore items, but also never was under the impression that they are automatically the best ones.

Most importantly, there is nothing in the game that can not be achieved with just money. Everything can also be bought with gold and nothing is unavailable for those who do not buy gems.

If you have bought the game, the expansions and the other DLC's (living world), you have everything you need to get whatever item you want.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

(For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

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