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Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?


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@Raknar.4735 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @"Cyninja.2954" definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.
  1. How does how fast you level affect me?Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.
  2. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?
  3. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?
  4. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

But I also have a question for you:Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.
  1. How?
  2. Because they are listed as P2W in these very forums.
  3. You mentioned LS, and having to buy your way in, despite them being free if you log in.
  4. How? Access to stuff that another player doesn't have access to? What about things like Legendary gear? Players have access to it while others don't, and it can be obtained for free too, or strictly through gameplay. This falls especially flat when, as you dismiss in three, you can get the LS for free by simply logging in during the window of it's release. Note: Nobody that's logged in during that window has to pay for it. Nobody.

So let's not argue in the absurd, yes? I gave perfectly fine examples of what I meant, even if I didn't spell it out enough, my mistake, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to. Expectations for the conversation have been adjusted accordingly. So while you fish for that "GOTCHA" moment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy how much you are proving me right.

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Some of the things i observed reading this thread:   1. Buying the full game when the game has what basically ammounts to a huge free demo is pay to win. 2. You can win at fashion wars

You can get into the game, cash up and be lvl 80 and fully equipped on your first day. I don't care if people try to stick the literal meaning of "pay to win" down somebodies throat, because in e

If GW2 is P2W, then I'm definitely doing something wrong. I have all the convenience items from the gem shop, but still can't kill another player in WvW.   Do you think it is too late to get

@"Leo G.4501" said:A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

So "But it has microtransactions, so it's P2W"? Yeah, that's what I'm dead set against even the idea of. Or is it "but xp boosts"? "but if they have more bag space, they're winning"? "Their character is prettier than mine"? Damn, you know, I bought some character slots too, how come I didn't automatically get Legendary gear? Maybe I should submit a ticket? Or maybe, it's because unlike other games, the gear, or the means to upgrade it aren't readily available in the CS? Maybe it's because, unlike other games, I can't go to the CS and buy some timed underwear that add to my stats for the duration, thus giving me a very real advantage over someone that didn't, as opposed to the "but I want more bag space, and they got it, so P2W"?

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No. It isn't and it never had been. Most stuff can be played with exotics gear and the gem store upgrades are just for convenience. You do not even need to grind regular content. (As it usually is the case in games with gear treadmill.)

The expansions ... having to buy them is not pay to win. They actually just unlock more content that otherwise you could not even have played. WvW is big and I still play my core engineer and have fun in the background. Maybe PvP you could argue like this ... but you can just stay in low tier and play with core classes as well there.

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@"Leo G.4501" said:A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

I am so lost by thoughts like this. If a new player picked up GW2 and wanted to 'pay to win' what are they doing/buying to get an immediate advantage?

What is the metric which 'winning' is defined? Is it universal across all game modes and content releases?

So far it feels like a bunch of posters want to push around the definition of something that really is not present in GW2. I haven't seen a solid argument that GW2 is anything close to P2W by any definition, and I think the poster(s) who said Pay2Play were correct.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @"Cyninja.2954" definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.
  1. How does how fast you level affect me?Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.
  2. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?
  3. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?
  4. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

But I also have a question for you:Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.
  1. How?
  2. Because they are listed as P2W in these very forums.
  3. You mentioned LS, and having to buy your way in, despite them being free if you log in.
  4. How? Access to stuff that another player doesn't have access to? What about things like Legendary gear? Players have access to it while others don't, and it can be obtained for free too, or strictly through gameplay. This falls especially flat when, as you dismiss in three, you can get the LS for free by simply logging in during the window of it's release. Note: Nobody that's logged in during that window has to pay for it. Nobody.

So let's not argue in the absurd, yes? I gave perfectly fine examples of what I meant, even if I didn't spell it out enough, my mistake, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to. Expectations for the conversation have been adjusted accordingly. So while you fish for that "GOTCHA" moment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy how much you are proving me right.
  1. Player A has something which gives them an advantage, which Player B doesn't have. How is that not an advantage?
  2. Yeah, but I didn't mention them, so why ask me? Makes no sense.
  3. LS isn't an expansion, so why ask about expansions?
  4. So you still don't get it. You're also willfully ignoring my answer again. Thanks, was a pleasure "discussing" with you. I see I don't get any answers, yet again. I'm done arguing with someone that argues in bad faith.

I can't stop arguing the absurd when every question you give is absurd. Your examples are not even relevant to your initial "actual" definition about P2W and actually make no sense, apart from disproving your own definition by going against it. You're asking me stuff about things i've never mentioned, for some reason (are you actually fishing for a "Gotcha" moment?). At this point, you're just acting ridiculous on purpose or are willfullingly obtuse. So yeah, final answer from me, not going to continue falling for your farce.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

I am so lost by thoughts like this. If a new player picked up GW2 and wanted to 'pay to win' what are they doing/buying to get an immediate advantage?

What is the metric which 'winning' is defined? Is it universal across all game modes and content releases?

So far it feels like a bunch of posters want to push around the definition of something that really is not present in GW2. I haven't seen a solid argument that GW2 is anything close to P2W by any definition, and I think the poster(s) who said Pay2Play were correct.

Scroll up and gander at the video I linked. It covers a wide range of aspects that fall under bad uses of P2W. Rather than writing a whole post that you're not going to read, just skip to the portion of the video where he talks about currency conversations and time in-game vs cash.

The "metric" you're trying to disqualify the game of using depends on a subjective qualifier of "winning" which you are simply going to change or deny on the whims of your own perspective. That's fine. You don't believe GW2 is P2W and I just believe you accept the level of P2W the game actually has and don't want the negatives of the term associated with your game. Quibbling over your definitions is a waste of my time because I already put the definition CLEARLY in a condensed format even an ADHD addled 12yr old can digest.

The video was fine, I found it interesting that he referred to the 'winning' aspect of games and how it can be different in different games. How in WoW/OSRS buying tokens and selling them in game, for example, is the way of winning via P2W. How in D&D you can buy campaign completion, unique items, races with unique racials etc as examples of winning via P2W. The 'winning' depends on the game so, I think my question still stands, what is 'Winning' defined as in relation to P2W and GW2?

While yes, you could argue that because there is a cash shop, and you can convert Cash->Gems->Gold that anything purchasable with currency could be construed as P2W, I still believe that what you are paying for is worthy of note, not that you can just buy things. Just for giggles tho, using the same logic as in the video, 10$ USD (about min wage I think) gets you 800 gems or about 185 gold. That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

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@Fueki.4753 said:Yes, it objectively is pay to win.Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

I would disagree with this as I have paid for the expansions but have not unlocked the specialisations yet. Therefore I have paid and not received the advantage.

I could have gotten Firebrand long ago but haven’t bothered to grind the points. I will get there naturally.

I have mounts, access to areas for good that others don’t etc. But I still don’t class that as pay to win as it is expansion content.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

So "But it has microtransactions, so it's P2W"? Yeah, that's what I'm dead set against even the idea of. Or is it "but xp boosts"? "but if they have more bag space, they're winning"? "Their character is prettier than mine"? kitten, you know, I bought some character slots too, how come I didn't automatically get Legendary gear? Maybe I should submit a ticket? Or maybe, it's because unlike other games, the gear, or the means to upgrade it aren't readily available in the CS? Maybe it's because, unlike other games, I can't go to the CS and buy some timed underwear that add to my stats for the duration, thus giving me a very real advantage over someone that didn't, as opposed to the "but I want more bag space, and they got it, so P2W"?

Because you can buy professions/specs, you can buy gold for gear and can pay your way out of content.

Don't be a spaz trying to put words in people's mouths or cherry pick points. If you feel personally attacked because someone called your game P2W, you have a problem. You, not me. I think GW2 has P2W features and it keeps them under controlled so it's fine. If you got a problem with that, then go back to living in your fairy tale game where everything is perfect and the bestest of best lol

The problem, of course, with "spaz" is that we can find threads on these very forums making the claims that I listed. There's even one claiming that the entire concept of the cash shop is predatory. So I guess the solution is "don't be a spaz and try to ignore that everything I presented actually happens, right here in these forums, and I'd bet you can find some of them listed in this thread". You be sure to let me know when that gear is listed in the actual cash shop though, mmkay? The "but expansions" doesn't hold a lot of water either, expansions always come with new content, that's why they're expansions. The "but mounts" argument that's bound to come is negated by the fact that core Tyria is playable w/out them, all of it. It's playable w/out them because they didn't exist when the maps were made. So if you don't have access to the content where you'd need a mount, not having a mount doesn't hurt you. I forget to use mine more than I use them, and in some areas, they're more of a detriment, than a help.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

What have you ever spent a large sum of gold on? Materials or tokens for crafting? Upgrades for gear you already own? Some time gated item or just gear you didn't want to have to craft yourself? And if you've never spent gold on anything but cosmetics, then consider the high value gear you do use in WvW or PvE and consider how long it'd take you to gather those materials to level the craft/make the components for it.

Or are we pretending now that gold does nothing of value in the game and everyone makes over 100k a day?

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

Lol don't care. This is a troll thread anyway and so long as I'm not breaking the rules, you can't get my posts deleted granted that hasn't stopped them in the past so nope, don't care.

Nothing, really. I've purchased armor from the trader for lvl 80 toons, and sigils and the like. How much cash have I spent to get the gold I spent? None. I'm sitting on about 170 gold right now, because I don't do gold grinds, and I don't spend it as fast as I earn it, mostly... What have I felt compelled to buy from the CS? Bank space, shared inventory space, crafting storage expansions and character slots. A lot of the stuff they gave away for free too, since it was free.

Hmm, I wonder how long it would take... Well, I've sold stacks of 500 of the legendary mats to vendors, since I can't trade them, and I won't be using them. I don't have to worry about WvW or Raid/fractal stuff, because I won't be running it, so 0 expenditures there either. You see, I can't just grab my wallet and buy my way through games, so I don't even think about it. I pay for a sub, where it's an option, and I do what I can while it's active. When I can't carry a sub, and the game's really limited w/out one, I just don't log in. So my wallet isn't an "end all" solution to actually playing games. The whole reason I buy games, where that's required, is to play them, why cheat myself of that?

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@"Cynz.9437" said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

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Now i havent been playing GW2 for that long (picked up the game last year) P2W in general means that power is locked behind a cash wall and cannot be earned any other way and that these powers are usually way stronger than what can be earned ingame, hence creating a incencitive to buy to be up to pair with others.

GW2 store only have cosmetics and small QoL things that is by no means a nessecerity to buy (like the endless gathernig tools and waypoint unlocker), there is no power to be bought from the store and even the legendary weapons doesnt have more dmg than their "regular" counterpart.

So in short, GW2 isnt P2W, never been, never will be. Hell you can even farm gold ingame and convert into gems to buy stuff so you can litterly get stuff for free pretty much as long as you grind enought gold for it.

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Anyone who thinks that GW2 is remotely Pay-to-Win should play PvP as a free player in a game that is Pay-to-Win. You will never make that mistake again.

The truth is that people have attempted to change the meaning of the term Pay-to-Win, changing its meaning to, "X feature that I have to pay for and don't want to pay for."

This has not been an improvement.

If you consider the original meaning of the term, which is something along the lines of, "Gaining a significant numerical advantage in the game that allows one to dominate players without that advantage." In addition, those advantages are either only accessible via cash, or, if available via play, involve ludicrous amounts of grind.

Someone pointed out that Elite Specs are stronger, thus making them P2W. By the definition above, that's not so. Also, there are still a few core builds that remain competitive. Therefore it cannot be said that the advantages from using an elite spec are so great as to dominate regardless of skill.

The only thing I would consider even close to meeting the criteria is server transfers in WvW. People pay and migrate to a server, stacking the odds in that server's favor. Even so, server transfers are available to anyone, can be gained as an in-game reward via gold-to-gems, and cost (at current rates) about 670 gold. Since it doesn't take that long to get 670 gold, this hardly constitutes as a ludicrous amount of grind.

Guys, seriously, you're trying to transmute a term to use its negative connotations inappropriately in order to make a point on the internet. This is disingenuous.

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I voted no.What's in gemstore is "nice to have" only and the game goes very well without. Beside, even in game, thanks to the fact that lot of things are account/soul bound (including mats and local currencies), to have lot of gold isn't the mean to progress. It's sort of a double protection against P2W.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

"Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

"Anything you can buy from the game cash shop
with real life money
that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend
real life money
on it"

That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

I agree for 99% with you.The 1% is that the transfer rate gold/gems is rather steep. This means that availability also is an issue. If there would be a statbooster that gives 1 hour of an advtange that is very significant and it requires 5 hours to farm the gold to get the gems to buy it, the P2W definition could be in view. Fortunally, this is not the case in GW2 and it does not fit the filosophy of Arenanet to introduce such a thing. The stuff that does not give a lasting advantage is limited and the advantage is very small (e.g. revive orbs are not giving a lasting advantage and they are not freely available, but the benefit is so minor that it still does not count as P2W)

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@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

"Anything you can buy from the game cash shop
with real life money
that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend
real life money
on it"

That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

I agree for 99% with you.The 1% is that the transfer rate gold/gems is rather steep. This means that availability also is an issue. If there would be a statbooster that gives 1 hour of an advtange that is very significant and it requires 5 hours to farm the gold to get the gems to buy it, the P2W definition could be in view. Fortunally, this is not the case in GW2 and it does not fit the filosophy of Arenanet to introduce such a thing. The stuff that does not give a lasting advantage is limited and the advantage is very small (e.g. revive orbs are not giving a lasting advantage and they are not freely available, but the benefit is so minor that it still does not count as P2W)

Well the gold/gems convertion rate is determined, by AN's "supply and demand" algorithm, dating all the way back to GW1's material traders. Side effect of that is that there is way more poeple that wants gems for gold, than people buying gems to turn them into gold, which drives the algorithm crazy ;)

But fair point on boosters, I kind of forgot those are a thing in games xD

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@"Leo G.4501" said:

Have you watched the video? He literally goes into exactly that point when he talks about pay to win and pay to convenience and literally states: IN HIS OPINION, they are the same thing. He then goes on into classifying this as any exchange of real world wealth into in-game wealth is in his opinion pay to win. Which literally leaves no room for ANYTHING related to micro-transactions. That's as broad as one can go. Yet even in his examples which he gives, GW2 would already NOT meet the criteria (or not meet them to the full extent) since he is going into detail with things as:

  • paying for better than standard mounts performance wise (this is not true here)
  • the more you pay, the easier the game becomes (again, not applicable to GW2 and even in terms of gearing, easily achieved and mirrored via in-game means)
  • rng and gatcha mechanics? Again not present as far as game play is concerned

He then literally side steps convenience items with stating:

  • more inventory space or experience potions might not be considered pay to win, yet he classifies them as such because they provide a benefit (notice that he makes a specific mention of this here as to rope in ALL convenience items). notice also that most people consider GW2 pay for convenience and SPECIFICALLY separate pay to win and pay for convenience (more on why this classification is important below).

You are free to consider convenience as pay to win or even every single micro-transaction pay to win. Obviously most player do not share this opinion according to this pole (which might not be reflective of the general opinion). Yes, this is a result of the industry shifting over the last years and as a direct result of competitors and other games being far more predatory. Perception is always based on the entire field of products and subjectively on the products one has experience with.

Finally he admits that according to his broad net, just about EVERY game is pay to win. The issue here, the classification becomes USELESS when it applies to everything. That's like arguing about GW2 being a game or not. Yes, most MMORPGs are probably games, no reason to argue over that.

The term PAY TO WIN is being used to qualify and quantify differences in games, with more erroneous monetization practices with direct effect on game play and spending being classified as pay to win. This is in order to differentiate between these practices. Lumping everything together fails at doing that, besides winning you a forum argument at best.

TL;DR:Lumping everything together as pay to win, as the youtuber you posted does, creates to broad a field of definition which fails at the core goal of why something is classified in a specific way.

PS. and not to discredit Josh Strife Hayes, I do enjoy some of his videos. As you consume more of his content you will soon notice that he has a specific sensationalism about his topics (in part due to playing the youtube algorithm) and likes to deal in extremes (as a result of his sensationalistic titles), leaving often little wiggle room or interpretation in matters which are not pure black and white. Which is fine, I respect someone presenting his opinion and being strait and strict about it, but it makes for a very poor approach to capture broader groups opinions, which are often far more diverse.

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

"Anything you can buy from the game cash shop
with real life money
that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend
real life money
on it"

That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

I also agree with this. It wasn't my quote to begin with, just the one someone else gave that apparently in his opinion is the "actual definition" everyone should go by. I started using it to show that person, that by using that quote everything could be deemed P2W.

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So what I understand as the result of the poll, Guild Wars 2 IS Pay2Win, depending on how you define it. Since everyone has, apparently, a different definition, there is no objective answer to the question. Which does makes a poll asking about something that is subjective rather pointless. That's like having a poll asking "what's your favorite color?"

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I'm surprised it got as many yes votes as it did because I wouldn't have expected anyone to keep playing a game they think is pay-to-win (regardless of how exactly they define it). Even if you can afford to be the one paying (and therefore 'winning') it's not going to be that fun or interesting and no one else is going to care so it just seems like a huge waste of money to me.

I could imagine one or two yes votes if someone happened to catch this poll while trying the game, getting annoyed that it's pay-to-win and coming to the forum to complain or see if anyone else has complained, but 15 yes votes seems high to me and some of them are from people who have the 3 year badge on their forum profile, meaning they've been here for years.

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