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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

"Anything you can buy from the game cash shop
with real life money
that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend
real life money
on it"

That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

Yeah, that was my bad, I didn't know I was going to have to break it down that far in order to be understood. I felt that that was implied by "Pay", but...

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Some of the things i observed reading this thread:   1. Buying the full game when the game has what basically ammounts to a huge free demo is pay to win. 2. You can win at fashion wars

You can get into the game, cash up and be lvl 80 and fully equipped on your first day. I don't care if people try to stick the literal meaning of "pay to win" down somebodies throat, because in e

If GW2 is P2W, then I'm definitely doing something wrong. I have all the convenience items from the gem shop, but still can't kill another player in WvW.   Do you think it is too late to get

@Danikat.8537 said:I'm surprised it got as many yes votes as it did because I wouldn't have expected anyone to keep playing a game they think is pay-to-win (regardless of how exactly they define it). Even if you can afford to be the one paying (and therefore 'winning') it's not going to be that fun or interesting and no one else is going to care so it just seems like a huge waste of money to me.

I could imagine one or two yes votes if someone happened to catch this poll while trying the game, getting annoyed that it's pay-to-win and coming to the forum to complain or see if anyone else has complained, but 15 yes votes seems high to me and some of them are from people who have the 3 year badge on their forum profile, meaning they've been here for years.

There are some communists people who are disgusted by anything you have to pay for. They want everything to be free. Playing a game will cost you money. This does not make it pay to win. Instead of monthly fees, this game uses micro transactions that are fully optional, but you'll need some reasons to buy it. This all doesn't make it pay to win. It is just how a bussiness works.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

What have you ever spent a large sum of gold on? Materials or tokens for crafting? Upgrades for gear you already own? Some time gated item or just gear you didn't want to have to craft yourself? And if you've never spent gold on anything but cosmetics, then consider the high value gear you do use in WvW or PvE and consider how long it'd take you to gather those materials to level the craft/make the components for it.

Or are we pretending now that gold does nothing of value in the game and everyone makes over 100k a day?

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

Lol don't care. This is a troll thread anyway and so long as I'm not breaking the rules, you can't get my posts deleted granted that hasn't stopped them in the past so nope, don't care.

Nothing, really. I've purchased armor from the trader for lvl 80 toons, and sigils and the like. How much cash have I spent to get the gold I spent? None. I'm sitting on about 170 gold right now, because I don't do gold grinds, and I don't spend it as fast as I earn it, mostly... What have I felt compelled to buy from the CS? Bank space, shared inventory space, crafting storage expansions and character slots. A lot of the stuff they gave away for free too, since it was free.

Hmm, I wonder how long it would take... Well, I've sold stacks of 500 of the legendary mats to vendors, since I can't trade them, and I won't be using them. I don't have to worry about WvW or Raid/fractal stuff, because I won't be running it, so 0 expenditures there either. You see, I can't just grab my wallet and buy my way through games, so I don't even think about it. I pay for a sub, where it's an option, and I do what I can while it's active. When I can't carry a sub, and the game's really limited w/out one, I just don't log in. So my wallet isn't an "end all" solution to actually playing games. The whole reason I buy games, where that's required, is to play them, why cheat myself of that?

Lol the point wasn't to get you to admit to needing to buy gold for cash, it was to get you to admit the desire for gold gives value to exchanging cash for it especially if you prefer doing what you find fun in-game rather than what is profitable.

Basically, if there's value in gold, there's obviously value in using the shortcut of converting currencies.

And before you go on some tangent about how it's different or how it's not winning or some shlock, me pointing this out isn't some blight on GW2. It's a decent incentive to players who do want to no-life the game as anything can help gain wealth which is transferable to players who have disposable income for the shortcut.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Leo G.4501" said:

Have you watched the video? He literally goes into exactly that point when he talks about pay to win and pay to convenience and literally states: IN HIS OPINION, they are the same thing. He then goes on into classifying this as any exchange of real world wealth into in-game wealth is in his opinion pay to win. Which literally leaves no room for ANYTHING related to micro-transactions. That's as broad as one can go. Yet even in his examples which he gives, GW2 would already NOT meet the criteria (or not meet them to the full extent) since he is going into detail with things as:
  • paying for better than standard mounts performance wise (this is not true here)
  • the more you pay, the easier the game becomes (again, not applicable to GW2 and even in terms of gearing, easily achieved and mirrored via in-game means)
  • rng and gatcha mechanics? Again not present as far as game play is concerned

He then literally side steps convenience items with stating:
  • more inventory space or experience potions might not be considered pay to win, yet he classifies them as such because they provide a benefit (notice that he makes a specific mention of this here as to rope in ALL convenience items). notice also that most people consider GW2 pay for convenience and SPECIFICALLY separate pay to win and pay for convenience (more on why this classification is important below).

You are free to consider convenience as pay to win or even every single micro-transaction pay to win. Obviously most player do not share this opinion according to this pole (which might not be reflective of the general opinion). Yes, this is a result of the industry shifting over the last years and as a direct result of competitors and other games being far more predatory. Perception is always based on the entire field of products and subjectively on the products one has experience with.

Finally he admits that according to his broad net, just about EVERY game is pay to win. The issue here, the classification becomes USELESS when it applies to everything. That's like arguing about GW2 being a game or not. Yes, most MMORPGs are probably games, no reason to argue over that.

The term PAY TO WIN is being used to qualify and quantify differences in games, with more erroneous monetization practices with direct effect on game play and spending being classified as pay to win. This is in order to differentiate between these practices. Lumping everything together fails at doing that, besides winning you a forum argument at best.

TL;DR
:Lumping everything together as pay to win, as the youtuber you posted does, creates to broad a field of definition which fails at the core goal of why something is classified in a specific way.

PS. and not to discredit Josh Strife Hayes, I do enjoy some of his videos. As you consume more of his content you will soon notice that he has a specific sensationalism about his topics (in part due to playing the youtube algorithm) and likes to deal in extremes (as a result of his sensationalistic titles), leaving often little wiggle room or interpretation in matters which are not pure black and white. Which is fine, I respect someone presenting his opinion and being strait and strict about it, but it makes for a very poor approach to capture broader groups opinions, which are often far more diverse.

I guess you didn't get to the point of the video about currency exchange.

And yes, I know he talks about pay for convenience but he does make a distinction which is why you noticed he mentioned the phrase. But pay for convenience is things like faster mounts, fast travel tokens, larger inventory space, ect. I'm not talking about ANY of that when I'm speaking of GW2's P2W elements.

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@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@"Cynz.9437" said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact. You can't get expansion thus especs with in game currency so you have to spend real money on it.

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact.

You can technically still win with core specs, you just have to play against bad players or become a really talented dueler that know all the mechanics and tricks of other specs you can't play as yourself.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact.

You can technically still win with core specs, you just have to play against bad players or become a really talented dueler that know all the mechanics and tricks of other specs you can't play as yourself.

Still doesn't change the fact that especs give huge advanatge. If 2 players of same skill playing same class fight each other the one with espec will mostlikely win. It gets even worse when we talk about group fights. I play core on my alt account due to no xpac and espec on main account - the difference is huge.

"In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. " - Wiki. Especs just scream "advantage". The worst part, Anet did it on purpose so they can force players into buying xpac.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.
Core engineer dumps grenade barrage and instakills holosmith

Holosmith:
"P2W REEEEEEEEEE!!!"

Wait.

You seriously compare one-trick pony to a spec that is generally way more viable in competitive environment? Didn't they nerf it?

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

What have you ever spent a large sum of gold on? Materials or tokens for crafting? Upgrades for gear you already own? Some time gated item or just gear you didn't want to have to craft yourself? And if you've never spent gold on anything but cosmetics, then consider the high value gear you do use in WvW or PvE and consider how long it'd take you to gather those materials to level the craft/make the components for it.

Or are we pretending now that gold does nothing of value in the game and everyone makes over 100k a day?

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

Lol don't care. This is a troll thread anyway and so long as I'm not breaking the rules, you can't get my posts deleted granted that hasn't stopped them in the past so nope, don't care.

Nothing, really. I've purchased armor from the trader for lvl 80 toons, and sigils and the like. How much cash have I spent to get the gold I spent? None. I'm sitting on about 170 gold right now, because I don't do gold grinds, and I don't spend it as fast as I earn it, mostly... What have I felt compelled to buy from the CS? Bank space, shared inventory space, crafting storage expansions and character slots. A lot of the stuff they gave away for free too, since it was free.

Hmm, I wonder how long it would take... Well, I've sold stacks of 500 of the legendary mats to vendors, since I can't trade them, and I won't be using them. I don't have to worry about WvW or Raid/fractal stuff, because I won't be running it, so 0 expenditures there either. You see, I can't just grab my wallet and buy my way through games, so I don't even think about it. I pay for a sub, where it's an option, and I do what I can while it's active. When I can't carry a sub, and the game's really limited w/out one, I just don't log in. So my wallet isn't an "end all" solution to actually playing games. The whole reason I buy games, where that's required, is to play them, why cheat myself of that?

Lol the point wasn't to get you to admit to needing to buy gold for cash, it was to get you to admit the desire for gold gives value to exchanging cash for it especially if you prefer doing what you find fun in-game rather than what is profitable.

Basically, if there's value in gold, there's obviously value in using the shortcut of converting currencies.

And before you go on some tangent about how it's different or how it's not winning or some shlock, me pointing this out isn't some blight on GW2. It's a decent incentive to players who do want to no-life the game as anything can help gain wealth which is transferable to players who have disposable income for the shortcut.

The problem with this analysis is that despite all the gold spammers in the world, not everyone buys from their sites. I mean, this is immediate conversion of cash to in game currency, and there are a whole lot more people that complain about it, and ignore them than use them. In 15 years of playing MMOs, I know exactly 1 person that's admitted to buying gold from the spammers. I've been in guilds with thousands of accounts, and guilds with 10. I've played Korean Grinders, and games where grind is defined as "but it's going to take me a half hour to do that", and only know 1 person that's admitted to it.

That we can do it here, doesn't mean there's a lot of people doing it. I suspect there are quite a few, but I'm not one of them. How much money have you spent doing it? I've spent 0 dollars on it. I have considered spending some gold on it, but if we're going to start defining spending gold that's earned in game, through gameplay, as P2W, then every game ever, SP included, is P2W.

Edit: Spelling is hard... /cry

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Have you watched the video? He literally goes into exactly that point when he talks about pay to win and pay to convenience and literally states: IN HIS OPINION, they are the same thing. He then goes on into classifying this as any exchange of real world wealth into in-game wealth is in his opinion pay to win. Which literally leaves no room for ANYTHING related to micro-transactions. That's as broad as one can go. Yet even in his examples which he gives, GW2 would already NOT meet the criteria (or not meet them to the full extent) since he is going into detail with things as:
  • paying for better than standard mounts performance wise (this is not true here)
  • the more you pay, the easier the game becomes (again, not applicable to GW2 and even in terms of gearing, easily achieved and mirrored via in-game means)
  • rng and gatcha mechanics? Again not present as far as game play is concerned

He then literally side steps convenience items with stating:
  • more inventory space or experience potions might not be considered pay to win, yet he classifies them as such because they provide a benefit (notice that he makes a specific mention of this here as to rope in ALL convenience items). notice also that most people consider GW2 pay for convenience and SPECIFICALLY separate pay to win and pay for convenience (more on why this classification is important below).

You are free to consider convenience as pay to win or even every single micro-transaction pay to win. Obviously most player do not share this opinion according to this pole (which might not be reflective of the general opinion). Yes, this is a result of the industry shifting over the last years and as a direct result of competitors and other games being far more predatory. Perception is always based on the entire field of products and subjectively on the products one has experience with.

Finally he admits that according to his broad net, just about EVERY game is pay to win. The issue here, the classification becomes USELESS when it applies to everything. That's like arguing about GW2 being a game or not. Yes, most MMORPGs are probably games, no reason to argue over that.

The term PAY TO WIN is being used to qualify and quantify differences in games, with more erroneous monetization practices with direct effect on game play and spending being classified as pay to win. This is in order to differentiate between these practices. Lumping everything together fails at doing that, besides winning you a forum argument at best.

TL;DR
:Lumping everything together as pay to win, as the youtuber you posted does, creates to broad a field of definition which fails at the core goal of why something is classified in a specific way.

PS. and not to discredit Josh Strife Hayes, I do enjoy some of his videos. As you consume more of his content you will soon notice that he has a specific sensationalism about his topics (in part due to playing the youtube algorithm) and likes to deal in extremes (as a result of his sensationalistic titles), leaving often little wiggle room or interpretation in matters which are not pure black and white. Which is fine, I respect someone presenting his opinion and being strait and strict about it, but it makes for a very poor approach to capture broader groups opinions, which are often far more diverse.

I guess you didn't get to the point of the video about currency exchange.

And yes, I know he talks about pay for convenience but he does make a distinction which is why you noticed he mentioned the phrase. But pay for convenience is things like faster mounts, fast travel tokens, larger inventory space, ect. I'm not talking about ANY of that when I'm speaking of GW2's P2W elements.

Oh I did, but the point I was out was made far earlier and needed not be repeated over and over with the later parts of the video (without going into any other details like his very broad definition of what he considers "winning").

To sum it up once again:Making the definition for pay to win so broad it encompasses every single game defeats the purpose of the phrase and the reason it is being used. It does make for a good opinion piece.

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@Cynz.9437 said:Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact. You can't get expansion thus especs with in game currency so you have to spend real money on it.

Trying to claim that expansions have any say in p2w discussion is simply silly.

Next thing you are going to say that original Guild Wars was p2w because you needed all 3 campaigns+expac to have access to all the good skills? (or specific campaigns to have access to some of professions while at it)

I stand by my first notion in this thread, that all.... 17 at the point of writing of this post have never played actuall P2W game. Including Yourself.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

What have you ever spent a large sum of gold on? Materials or tokens for crafting? Upgrades for gear you already own? Some time gated item or just gear you didn't want to have to craft yourself? And if you've never spent gold on anything but cosmetics, then consider the high value gear you do use in WvW or PvE and consider how long it'd take you to gather those materials to level the craft/make the components for it.

Or are we pretending now that gold does nothing of value in the game and everyone makes over 100k a day?

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

Lol don't care. This is a troll thread anyway and so long as I'm not breaking the rules, you can't get my posts deleted granted that hasn't stopped them in the past so nope, don't care.

Nothing, really. I've purchased armor from the trader for lvl 80 toons, and sigils and the like. How much cash have I spent to get the gold I spent? None. I'm sitting on about 170 gold right now, because I don't do gold grinds, and I don't spend it as fast as I earn it, mostly... What have I felt compelled to buy from the CS? Bank space, shared inventory space, crafting storage expansions and character slots. A lot of the stuff they gave away for free too, since it was free.

Hmm, I wonder how long it would take... Well, I've sold stacks of 500 of the legendary mats to vendors, since I can't trade them, and I won't be using them. I don't have to worry about WvW or Raid/fractal stuff, because I won't be running it, so 0 expenditures there either. You see, I can't just grab my wallet and buy my way through games, so I don't even think about it. I pay for a sub, where it's an option, and I do what I can while it's active. When I can't carry a sub, and the game's really limited w/out one, I just don't log in. So my wallet isn't an "end all" solution to actually playing games. The whole reason I buy games, where that's required, is to play them, why cheat myself of that?

Lol the point wasn't to get you to admit to needing to buy gold for cash, it was to get you to admit the desire for gold gives value to exchanging cash for it especially if you prefer doing what you find fun in-game rather than what is profitable.

Basically, if there's value in gold, there's obviously value in using the shortcut of converting currencies.

And before you go on some tangent about how it's different or how it's not winning or some shlock, me pointing this out isn't some blight on GW2. It's a decent incentive to players who do want to no-life the game as anything can help gain wealth which is transferable to players who have disposable income for the shortcut.

The problem with this analysis is that despite all the gold spammers in the world, not everyone buys from their sites. I mean, this is immediate conversion of cash to in game currency, and there are a whole lot more people that complain about it, and ignore them than use them. In 15 years of playing MMOs, I know exactly 1 person that's admitted to buying gold from the spammers. I've been in guilds with thousands of accounts, and guilds with 10. I've played Korean Grinders, and games where grind is defined as "but it's going to take me a half hour to do that", and only know 1 person that's admitted to it.

That we can do it here, doesn't mean there's a lot of people doing it. I suspect there are quite a few, but I'm not one of them. How much money have you spent doing it? I've spent 0 dollars on it. I have considered spending some gold on it, but if we're going to start defining spending gold that's earned in game, through gameplay, as P2W, then every game ever, SP included, is P2W.

Edit: Spelling is hard... /cry

The difference is RMT in those games weren't supported by the game. In fact, you could get banned for it.

Your what-about-ism attempt is highly flawed.

Let me just go buy some gil in FFXIV-oh wait! You can't. Not legally, anyway. What about that? lol

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Ok, so we have a game that gives you a "FREE TRIAL" on PvE content and a "FREE TRIAL" on PvP, WvW, YadaYada content.You, actually liking the game, decide to buy the FULL VERSION of the game and play the game the way it was intended to be played. Help the developers and help keeping the servers running. Good job, you are now experiencing everything the game can throw at you.Someone else, enjoying the FREE TRIAL of the game, continues to play without paying any money for the FULL VERSION of the game and doesn't support the team that stands behind it. He is playing the free trial of the game as the free trial was intended to be played, with its limitations. LIMITATIONS ON THE FREE TRIAL? But why? Why can't I have the whole package without paying any money? Eh... sure....As long as he chooses to not buy the game, he understands that he won't experience the whole game. And for PvP, most of the time, especially if he's not playing a core class that can compete with especs (guard was kinda strong core for some time...), he acknowledges he will put himself at a disadvantage. Also, if you are talking about quality of time spent, expansion PvE is so much better. Is someone, who would pay for content, going to "win" a better time in GW2? From the point of view of someone who has no intention into putting some money into the game, it is P2W. But if this is P2W for you, then I'd like to see this P2W model in any other game.As long as you are going with a free trial, full version of the game, the one that goes on and buys the game will "win"...eh, a better time in GW2. Gotta tell you, as someone who did buy the game and who is playing the game as it was intended to be played, I don't feel there is any pay-to-win element.

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@"DarkXi.3289" said:Ok, so we have a game that gives you a "FREE TRIAL" on PvE content and a "FREE TRIAL" on PvP, WvW, YadaYada content.You, actually liking the game, decide to buy the FULL VERSION of the game and play the game the way it was intended to be played. Help the developers and help keeping the servers running. Good job, you are now experiencing everything the game can throw at you.Someone else, enjoying the FREE TRIAL of the game, continues to play without paying any money for the FULL VERSION of the game and doesn't support the team that stands behind it. He is playing the free trial of the game as the free trial was intended to be played, with its limitations. LIMITATIONS ON THE FREE TRIAL? But why? Why can't I have the whole package without paying any money? Eh... sure....

Just to add onto that hypothetical, imagine there is a 3rd guy who decided to not only buy the game and expansions, but drop an extra $100 off the bat and occasionally another $50 every week or so. Compared to the guy who bought the game after the free trial, this whale will likely get to max level at the same time or faster than the 2nd guy + have a bunch of gold to fund his crafting, get him started with a few different sets of exotic and put him on track to taking down fractals for some ascended grear/materials. While the 2nd guy can get exotic with karma or other currencies, that still takes time, knowledge and experience to know and find and you still likely won't have all your gear lined up... And he probably wouldn't have his crafts up yet either.

Again, it's not a huge deal but the distinction exists. It might not matter to you vets who have over 2 dozen different characters and a bank of ascended gear but it is not nothing.

As long as he chooses to not buy the game, he understands that he won't experience the whole game. And for PvP, most of the time, especially if he's not playing a core class that can compete with especs (guard was kinda strong core for some time...), he acknowledges he will put himself at a disadvantage. Also, if you are talking about quality of time spent, expansion PvE is so much better. Is someone, who would pay for content, going to "win" a better time in GW2? From the point of view of someone who has no intention into putting some money into the game, it is P2W. But if this is P2W for you, then I'd like to see this P2W model in any other game.As long as you are going with a free trial, full version of the game, the one that goes on and buys the game will "win"...eh, a better time in GW2. Gotta tell you, as someone who did buy the game and who is playing the game as it was intended to be played, I don't feel there is any pay-to-win element.

As a player who ACTUALLY plays the game as it's intended to be played by leveling new characters from scratch and only using gear that drops or bought with karma from hearts on the way to level 80, I can tell the difference between the base experience and the twink experience.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@"DarkXi.3289" said:Ok, so we have a game that gives you a "FREE TRIAL" on PvE content and a "FREE TRIAL" on PvP, WvW, YadaYada content.You, actually liking the game, decide to buy the FULL VERSION of the game and play the game the way it was intended to be played. Help the developers and help keeping the servers running. Good job, you are now experiencing everything the game can throw at you.Someone else, enjoying the FREE TRIAL of the game, continues to play without paying any money for the FULL VERSION of the game and doesn't support the team that stands behind it. He is playing the free trial of the game as the free trial was intended to be played, with its limitations. LIMITATIONS ON THE FREE TRIAL? But why? Why can't I have the whole package without paying any money? Eh... sure....

Just to add onto that hypothetical, imagine there is a 3rd guy who decided to not only buy the game and expansions, but drop an extra $100 off the bat and occasionally another $50 every week or so. Compared to the guy who bought the game after the free trial, this whale will likely get to max level at the same time or faster than the 2nd guy + have a bunch of gold to fund his crafting, get him started with a few different sets of exotic and put him on track to taking down fractals for some ascended grear/materials. While the 2nd guy can get exotic with karma or other currencies, that still takes time, knowledge and experience to know and find and you still likely won't have all your gear lined up... And he probably wouldn't have his crafts up yet either.

Again, it's not a huge deal but the distinction exists. It might not matter to you vets who have over 2 dozen different characters and a bank of ascended gear but it is not nothing.

As long as he chooses to not buy the game, he understands that he won't experience the whole game. And for PvP, most of the time, especially if he's not playing a core class that can compete with especs (guard was kinda strong core for some time...), he acknowledges he will put himself at a disadvantage. Also, if you are talking about quality of time spent, expansion PvE is so much better. Is someone, who would pay for content, going to "win" a better time in GW2? From the point of view of someone who has no intention into putting some money into the game, it is P2W. But if this is P2W for you, then I'd like to see this P2W model in any other game.As long as you are going with a free trial, full version of the game, the one that goes on and buys the game will "win"...eh, a better time in GW2. Gotta tell you, as someone who did buy the game and who is playing the game as it was intended to be played, I don't feel there is any pay-to-win element.

As a player who ACTUALLY plays the game as it's intended to be played by leveling new characters from scratch and only using gear that drops or bought with karma from hearts on the way to level 80, I can tell the difference between the base experience and the twink experience.

I have a dozen characters, and the only ascended gear I have are accessories that I bought with Laurels. I got the Laurels from gameplay, and logging in. I have a few characters with accessories because I didn't know about the laurel merchant until like last year, but I'd been accumulating them for a long while. Let me guess, still P2W?

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"DarkXi.3289" said:Ok, so we have a game that gives you a "FREE TRIAL" on PvE content and a "FREE TRIAL" on PvP, WvW, YadaYada content.You, actually liking the game, decide to buy the FULL VERSION of the game and play the game the way it was intended to be played. Help the developers and help keeping the servers running. Good job, you are now experiencing everything the game can throw at you.Someone else, enjoying the FREE TRIAL of the game, continues to play without paying any money for the FULL VERSION of the game and doesn't support the team that stands behind it. He is playing the free trial of the game as the free trial was intended to be played, with its limitations. LIMITATIONS ON THE FREE TRIAL? But why? Why can't I have the whole package without paying any money? Eh... sure....

Just to add onto that hypothetical, imagine there is a 3rd guy who decided to not only buy the game and expansions, but drop an extra $100 off the bat and occasionally another $50 every week or so. Compared to the guy who bought the game after the free trial, this whale will likely get to max level at the same time or faster than the 2nd guy + have a bunch of gold to fund his crafting, get him started with a few different sets of exotic and put him on track to taking down fractals for some ascended grear/materials. While the 2nd guy can get exotic with karma or other currencies, that still takes time, knowledge and experience to know and find and you still likely won't have all your gear lined up... And he probably wouldn't have his crafts up yet either.

Again, it's not a huge deal but the distinction exists. It might not matter to you vets who have over 2 dozen different characters and a bank of ascended gear but it is not nothing.

As long as he chooses to not buy the game, he understands that he won't experience the whole game. And for PvP, most of the time, especially if he's not playing a core class that can compete with especs (guard was kinda strong core for some time...), he acknowledges he will put himself at a disadvantage. Also, if you are talking about quality of time spent, expansion PvE is so much better. Is someone, who would pay for content, going to "win" a better time in GW2? From the point of view of someone who has no intention into putting some money into the game, it is P2W. But if this is P2W for you, then I'd like to see this P2W model in any other game.As long as you are going with a free trial, full version of the game, the one that goes on and buys the game will "win"...eh, a better time in GW2. Gotta tell you, as someone who did buy the game and who is playing the game as it was intended to be played, I don't feel there is any pay-to-win element.

As a player who ACTUALLY plays the game as it's intended to be played by leveling new characters from scratch and only using gear that drops or bought with karma from hearts on the way to level 80, I can tell the difference between the base experience and the twink experience.

I have a dozen characters, and the only ascended gear I have are accessories that I bought with Laurels. I got the Laurels from gameplay, and logging in. I have a few characters with accessories because I didn't know about the laurel merchant until like last year, but I'd been accumulating them for a long while. Let me guess, still P2W?

Did you also drop $100 after your expansion purchase and a possible $200 a month for extra spending gold? If not, why would you assume I think you pay to win? ?

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@"DarkXi.3289" said:Ok, so we have a game that gives you a "FREE TRIAL" on PvE content and a "FREE TRIAL" on PvP, WvW, YadaYada content.You, actually liking the game, decide to buy the FULL VERSION of the game and play the game the way it was intended to be played. Help the developers and help keeping the servers running. Good job, you are now experiencing everything the game can throw at you.Someone else, enjoying the FREE TRIAL of the game, continues to play without paying any money for the FULL VERSION of the game and doesn't support the team that stands behind it. He is playing the free trial of the game as the free trial was intended to be played, with its limitations. LIMITATIONS ON THE FREE TRIAL? But why? Why can't I have the whole package without paying any money? Eh... sure....

Just to add onto that hypothetical, imagine there is a 3rd guy who decided to not only buy the game and expansions, but drop an extra $100 off the bat and occasionally another $50 every week or so. Compared to the guy who bought the game after the free trial, this whale will likely get to max level at the same time or faster than the 2nd guy + have a bunch of gold to fund his crafting, get him started with a few different sets of exotic and put him on track to taking down fractals for some ascended grear/materials. While the 2nd guy can get exotic with karma or other currencies, that still takes time, knowledge and experience to know and find and you still likely won't have all your gear lined up... And he probably wouldn't have his crafts up yet either.

Again, it's not a huge deal but the distinction exists. It might not matter to you vets who have over 2 dozen different characters and a bank of ascended gear but it is not nothing.

As long as he chooses to not buy the game, he understands that he won't experience the whole game. And for PvP, most of the time, especially if he's not playing a core class that can compete with especs (guard was kinda strong core for some time...), he acknowledges he will put himself at a disadvantage. Also, if you are talking about quality of time spent, expansion PvE is so much better. Is someone, who would pay for content, going to "win" a better time in GW2? From the point of view of someone who has no intention into putting some money into the game, it is P2W. But if this is P2W for you, then I'd like to see this P2W model in any other game.As long as you are going with a free trial, full version of the game, the one that goes on and buys the game will "win"...eh, a better time in GW2. Gotta tell you, as someone who did buy the game and who is playing the game as it was intended to be played, I don't feel there is any pay-to-win element.

As a player who ACTUALLY plays the game as it's intended to be played by leveling new characters from scratch and only using gear that drops or bought with karma from hearts on the way to level 80, I can tell the difference between the base experience and the twink experience.

I have a dozen characters, and the only ascended gear I have are accessories that I bought with Laurels. I got the Laurels from gameplay, and logging in. I have a few characters with accessories because I didn't know about the laurel merchant until like last year, but I'd been accumulating them for a long while. Let me guess, still P2W?

Did you also drop $100 after your expansion purchase and a possible $200 a month for extra spending gold? If not, why would you assume I think you pay to win? ?

Because it fits the pattern. I mean, lots of stuff is P2W now a days, including expansions, which is mind boggling. I find the xp boosts to be extremely questionable here, especially here, since we're all around the same level in any quest zones. So unless someone is bothered by someone in town being a higher level than they think they should be, I don't get it. I don't get the xp boosters either, but that's more because I haven't seen a need for them.

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Then I guess it's a difference on what one would label a game as P2W. I've played the game completely for free for an entire year before buying it last year. I was able to play the whole core world map and do dungeons. I got into PvP playing core Guard and core Warrior, got myself into plat league too. Got some ascended trinkets and an ascended backpack off of that. With the ascended stuff I went into fractals from the scratch. When I reached Tier 2 and saw that I can't get higher 'cause of the agony requirements (really hard if not impossible to get ascended armor and weapons of f2p), that was the moment I felt I FINALLY hit the ceiling of free-2-play. And because I liked the game, I bought it. Did I feel I was plundered in PvP? Sure.Did I feel like I was at a disadvantage for not leveling faster, not getting full gear faster? I enjoyed the time I've played, so no.That's what the full version of the game (moneyh) is giving to you. Is giving you more time to actually play the game and not grind. I spent money on the game only twice. 1st when I bought the game and 2nd some days ago when I thought they would put some shared inventory slots for sale. If skipping grind that gets you in the same place as someone who would not skip it, gives you the feel of pay-2-win, well, that's up to you.Gl hf tho'.

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact. You can't get expansion thus especs with in game currency so you have to spend real money on it.

It seems that you don't have enough skill.I play warrior without any E-Specs but all that is beside the point.Just buy the game you play and you are good.Pay to win would be if everyone who would own the expansions has a way to pay to defeat other people who own all expansions.An Expansion is not pay to win, it's game content.

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

????So buying the game you play is now pay to win???????

Did you even read what you quote or just spam question marks? Yes, the game is pay to win. Without espec you are going to lose most of your matches in pvp and encounters in wvw vs players with espec. This is fact. You can't get expansion thus especs with in game currency so you have to spend real money on it.

If you're playing without expansions, you're playing a trial version of the game (unless you bought the game before HoT was released).The paid version of a game having advantages over a trial version is obviously not Pay2Win.

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@Maikimaik.1974 said:If you're playing without expansions, you're playing a trial version of the game (unless you bought the game before HoT was released).The paid version of a game having advantages over a trial version is obviously not Pay2Win.

Exactly. Too many people think that if the core game is now free, it means the game is pay to win because it has Expansions. Arenanet made the core game free so that more people can try the game, if they like it, they buy the expansions. Or would you guys rather have the core game be sold again, as it was pre Heart of Thorns?

Expansions do not mean pay to win. Every expansion of any game costs money. By this logic, WoW and other games that have you buy expansions are pay to win too.Pay to win are games in which you can play the whole game for free, but in order to be the best of the best in it, you have to pay money. There are so many games where you can buy VIP subscription that gives you advantage versus free player or just buying premium currency in order to get gear that gets you to the top without any effort (looking at you, TERA and Runes of Magic). You can play this game without paying any real money in order to get the best gear. You can play the whole game content (after buying expansions) without paying money in order to get the best gear.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, my "excuse" is the fact that using this broad a definition defeats the purpose of the terminology.

There is no comparison happening when all games fall under the same definition.

But all games don't fall under that so-called "broad definition". You're just salty that some of that definition applies to your game. For example, FFXIV fails to fit.

You don't even notice how selective you are. The video YOU linked defines pay to win as nearly anything which can be purchased with real money, which in any way can be used to speed up or gain an advantage.

Final Fantasy 14 allows:

  • character level boost to sub max level
  • Shadowbringers adds a mount which surpasses original mount speed availability temporarily
  • skip scenarios via store purchase

and that's just with a 5 minutes rudimentary inspection of the cash shop.

Final Fantasy is ABSOLUTELY pay to win according to the video YOU posted by the mere fact you can advance your character level by paying alone (that alone already fits Josh's definition). Remember, Josh Strife Haze uses a VERY broad definition. He explicitly mentions some of these options. According to his video, FF14 is pay to win. He makes a specific mention of paying to advance at 2:05.

I love how the video YOU linked suddenly encompasses a game you were sure was not pay to win, or believed not to be. That's what happens when the definition is made to broad. Perfect example. Thank you, I could not have come up with how to better demonstrate this.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I don't spin the definition to my liking. I try to use sensible definitions with meaning in order to characterize things I want to draw attention to. In case of pay to win, the goal is to warn of specific predatory monetization practices.

So you only want to draw attention to some things and ignore others.

Yes, in case of pay to win and its negative connotation, I personally do. That's what the term is being used as most often as in the western market.

If I wanted to draw attention to other things, I would name them like: this game has micro transactions or this game has pay for convenience.

@Leo G.4501 said:I'd say you have the worst perspective of anyone arguing in this thread. Not only are you purposefully trying to mask actual facts about the game but you do so with the mask of benevolence as if just being frank with people is a bad thing and hiding the truth is for our own good so you can put a spotlight on "specific predatory monetization practices" to distract people.

I'm not hiding anything, nor do I believe most others players who have voted here do. I call into question how calling nearly everything pay to win fits the purpose of the phrase. (Josh even mentions himself that his definition will fit most games at 3:28 after specifically mentioning that he is considering all nuances of pay to win, pay for convenience and pay to advance quicker as PAY TO WIN at 2:42. He is strait up and honest about how broad and all encompassing his personal definition is and will likely fit near any game with a cash shop.)

You were the one who brought up the video of Josh, without ANY context mind you.

If your definition of pay to win differs than a video you seemed to agree with, you could have easily made those distinctions. I personally see value in differentiating between pay to win and pay for convenience for example. Why? because those differences matter to me. In his video Josh lumps both together, which I opposed to.

@Leo G.4501 said:It's obvious that you simply disagree with my particular post. Why not just agree to disagree? At best, all you can do to argue against my point is pushing more what-about-ism and proclaim your definition as the true definition. Seems fishy to me. I'd rather someone whose holding their own wallet to decide if a monetization practice is "predatory" or not rather than having some moral nanny make that decision for them.

I did not disagree with your post. I disagreed with the definition put forth in the video you linked. You did not even make an effort to formulate your own opinion.

In fact, last I checked, the only things I have been responding to were the initial video you linked and the subsequent argument over the position and definition put forth in that video. Who knows, maybe your personal definition differs from Josh's given you seem to disagree with him on how to classify FF14. I wouldn't know, you never made an effort to differentiate yourself from Josh's definition.

@Leo G.4501 said:And if you decide to reply to my post again, for whatever reason, be sure to answer this as well: Can P2W be a positive thing? Or at least neutral?

No, I do not consider pay to win to be positive or neutral. Not in the way it is being used in gamer circles and the very negative connotation it has. Which is why I am giving this phrase and how it is used such careful consideration. For everything else, there are better phrases to use which can mean the same thing, but with a positive spin.

I'm the one being defensive? Last I checked, I was not the one to start using personal attacks to discredit someone else's arguments. I'm sure your intentional mention of Karen, accidentally assuming my intent and discrediting what I said based on stereotypes was all by accident.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost.

You would have to establish that leveling faster is advantageous for this to be true. I could very readily argue that leveling faster puts a player at a disadvantage.

Otherwise I tend to agree with your points.

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