Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

[Leo G.4501]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

[Ashen.2907]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

That is odd because a high level character CAN completely dominate on lower level maps.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

I find it rather funny that he gets roflstomped by the same mob at level 50 that got him at level 1. I also find that that level of "skill", read "the lack thereof" means that he's really not a reliable source for information about MMOs. I made the same comment on that video that I'll leave here: If you're getting rolled by the same mobs at level 50 that rolled you at level one, the game's not the problem.

[Leo G.4501]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

I find it rather funny that he gets roflstomped by the same mob at level 50 that got him at level 1. I also find that that level of "skill", read "the lack thereof" means that he's really not a reliable source for information about MMOs. I made the same comment on that video that I'll leave here: If you're getting rolled by the same mobs at level 50 that rolled you at level one, the game's not the problem.

Well, considering I don't know what video you're referencing, you said yourself he was only showing GW2 footage in the background and not directly referencing an anecdote from this game.

From that perspective, I'd assume it was just a hyperbole for dramatic purposes. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

I do realize that, yes, you'd know that if you read my post. I don't agree with him, but like i said, he's entitled to his opinion, but he's also barking up the wrong tree, if he wants that kind of feeling, there's other games. Why, instead of showing a game that is balanced around being linear in progression, show a game that's not and then comment on how it's good to have those systems. Also, isn't he dying to low level mobs a lot? In which case, the game isn't the problem here.But nevermind all that, of course you can agree with him, but your argument should hold up without youtube links. Just because someone else also posted something that you agree with (part or not) doesn't make your argument any better, it only makes it seem like you're holding that person as some kind of authority while in reality, you and Cyninja were arguing over an opinion more or less lol. Just agree to disagree. :tongue:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

That is odd because a high level character CAN completely dominate on lower level maps.

Yes, exactly, and imagine if there were no restrictions whatsoever and you were unkillable on top of everythin.Also, i think he was getting killed in the video, even despite the fact that you can still dominate in low level maps as a high level character. So his whole premise is flawed to begin with.Besides, that's not the point, whether or not the cap is ok or not, or if he's good or not, the point is, the guy is just a person with opinions, no one should hold that up as some kind of fact by any means.

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

I find it rather funny that he gets roflstomped by the same mob at level 50 that got him at level 1. I also find that that level of "skill", read "the lack thereof" means that he's really not a reliable source for information about MMOs. I made the same comment on that video that I'll leave here: If you're getting rolled by the same mobs at level 50 that rolled you at level one, the game's not the problem.

That also makes his whole premise of criticizing those systems kinda flawed to begin with no? Cause you CAN dominate lower maps...I don't know... Anyway, personally, i don't find that guy an authority on anything, just think of him as some person with his opinion. He has right to those, but i'm going to hold my right to disagree.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Ah yes, the video, that I didn't watch. I'll tell you why though, the same creator has a video about level scaling being bad, is playing GW 2, sort of, in the background, and complaining about getting stomped by a mob at level one, and then getting stomped again by the same mob at level 50. Not really a content creator that I'd want to cite as knowing what they're talking about.

I think i watched that video. His whole argument was that he wants to feel powerful and roflstomp/dominate all the lower level maps as his reward for leveling right? Something like that?

In which case... Ugh............................................................ :tired_face:Not the "trusted source" people should be looking for when citing for an argument.I mean, sure, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it, but opinion is not an argument on something.

I find this rather funny.

You do realize there are people out there who play these RPGs for that kind of satisfaction (even if it serves no purpose)? Yes, people like to feel feedback from their time playing marked by a linear display of power, no need to ignore reality. Do I agree with him? No. But I can also fairly perceive and present his perspective (haven't watched all his videos but he does recommend GW2, so trying to poison the well seems extremely petty). I can take parts of someone's opinions and point out what I agree with or don't. No one wins when you only see everything in strict binaries. The main reason I posted the video at the time was partly because he had uploaded it the day I started reading the thread. Has nothing to do with upholding his opinion as authority.

Stay frosty.

I find it rather funny that he gets roflstomped by the same mob at level 50 that got him at level 1. I also find that that level of "skill", read "the lack thereof" means that he's really not a reliable source for information about MMOs. I made the same comment on that video that I'll leave here: If you're getting rolled by the same mobs at level 50 that rolled you at level one, the game's not the problem.

Well, considering I don't know what video you're referencing, you said yourself he was only showing GW2 footage in the background and not directly referencing an anecdote from this game.

From that perspective, I'd assume it was just a hyperbole for dramatic purposes. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Why? I didn't try to use the creator as some kind of information to support a claim. I merely pointed out that his knowledge is flawed. You obviously agree with him, or you wouldn't cite him in this thread. I reject his knowledge, and his ability, and the only reason I need is "I've watched him play". Of course, as an inferior player, he's going to think that anyone that plays better than him is P2W. I sure that he, as you seem to, or you wouldn't cite him, believes that he's a pinnacle of MMO knowledge. The issue is, he's not. I've seen that watching his gameplay in one video, where he's complaining about level scaling. That's all I need. I gave that video, and the one you've linked here all the consideration they deserve; I disliked his level scaling video, and I didn't click on this one, because I don't want to support his channel, when he's not parsing good information.

[Leo G.4501]

@Veprovina.4876 said:I do realize that...

Do you, though?

@Veprovina.4876 said:...you'd know that if you read my post. I don't agree with him, but like i said, he's entitled to his opinion, but he's also barking up the wrong tree, if he wants that kind of feeling, there's other games. Why, instead of showing a game that is balanced around being linear in progression, show a game that's not and then comment on how it's good to have those systems. Also, isn't he dying to low level mobs a lot? In which case, the game isn't the problem here.But nevermind all that, of course you can agree with him, but your argument should hold up without youtube links. Just because someone else also posted something that you agree with (part or not) doesn't make your argument any better, it only makes it seem like you're holding that person as some kind of authority while in reality, you and Cyninja were arguing over an opinion more or less lol. Just agree to disagree. :tongue:

Like I said before, I posted the link to highlight how P2W can affects the game and its players because people either won't read a post or misrepresent the post past a handful of replies. You still won't acknowledge those factors and would rather poison the well using some anecdote you heard 2nd hand.

@Veprovina.4876 said:That also makes his whole premise of criticizing those systems kinda flawed to begin with no? Cause you CAN dominate lower maps...I don't know... Anyway, personally, i don't find that guy an authority on anything, just think of him as some person with his opinion. He has right to those, but i'm going to hold my right to disagree.

I'm sure there's another fallacy in here too but I'm not well versed on my keyboard warrior debate terms.

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Why? I didn't try to use the creator as some kind of information to support a claim. I merely pointed out that his knowledge is flawed. You obviously agree with him, or you wouldn't cite him in this thread. I reject his knowledge, and his ability, and the only reason I need is "I've watched him play". Of course, as an inferior player, he's going to think that anyone that plays better than him is P2W. I sure that he, as you seem to, or you wouldn't cite him, believes that he's a pinnacle of MMO knowledge. The issue is, he's not. I've seen that watching his gameplay in one video, where he's complaining about level scaling. That's all I need. I gave that video, and the one you've linked here all the consideration they deserve; I disliked his level scaling video, and I didn't click on this one, because I don't want to support his channel, when he's not parsing good information.

Hmm, did I not say I posted his video more arbitrarily than authoritatively? Did I not say I can disagree with someone's conclusions or opinions but still find common ground or understanding? You don't have to agree with someone on everything, you know...

...but then you've stated you didn't even watch the video so why even argue the validity when I stated MY perspective for you to critique? Oh right, because if someone references something you don't like or disagree with, it invalidates their entire argument. Gotcha. Flawed response but noted.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I do realize that...

Do you, though?

No, i said this so that i may seem like i do, but i actually don't, i realize nothing, you totally got me, my realizations skills are lacking and laid bare for all to see because you pushed the issue with questioning me, i am ashamed now and will go cry myself to sleep.

@Veprovina.4876 said:...you'd know that if you read my post. I don't agree with him, but like i said, he's entitled to his opinion, but he's also barking up the wrong tree, if he wants that kind of feeling, there's other games. Why, instead of showing a game that is balanced around being linear in progression, show a game that's not and then comment on how it's good to have those systems. Also, isn't he dying to low level mobs a lot? In which case, the game isn't the problem here.But nevermind all that, of course you can agree with him, but your argument should hold up without youtube links. Just because someone else also posted something that you agree with (part or not) doesn't make your argument any better, it only makes it seem like you're holding that person as some kind of authority while in reality, you and Cyninja were arguing over an opinion more or less lol. Just agree to disagree. :tongue:

Like I said before, I posted the link to highlight how P2W can affects the game and its players because people either won't read a post or misrepresent the post past a handful of replies.

Did you though?

[Leo G.4501]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I do realize that...

Do you, though?

No, i said this so that i may seem like i do, but i actually don't, i realize nothing, you totally got me, my realizations skills are lacking and laid bare for all to see because you pushed the issue with questioning me, i am ashamed now and will go cry myself to sleep.

The reason I asked is because you said he's "barking up the wrong tree" with regards to GW2 when all I've seen presented is him barking and no idea which tree he was barking up. You only assumed he's talking about GW2 because he allegedly showed a clip of GW2 in a video about level scaling.

Further still, you say he's entitled to his own opinion. Even if he found GW2's level scaling to rob him of some satisfaction of the game, why is it relevant if he's not complaining to ANet to fix it but instead is "barking up other trees" for it? This entire dialog makes no sense to me as it's completely tangential and only exists to put anothers' perspective in a negative light.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I do realize that...

Do you, though?

No, i said this so that i may seem like i do, but i actually don't, i realize nothing, you totally got me, my realizations skills are lacking and laid bare for all to see because you pushed the issue with questioning me, i am ashamed now and will go cry myself to sleep.

The reason I asked is because you said he's "barking up the wrong tree" with regards to GW2 when all I've seen presented is him barking and no idea which tree he was barking up. You only assumed he's talking about GW2 because he allegedly showed a clip of GW2 in a video about level scaling.

Further still, you say he's entitled to his own opinion. Even if he found GW2's level scaling to rob him of some satisfaction of the game, why is it relevant if he's not complaining to ANet to fix it but instead is "barking up other trees" for it? This entire dialog makes no sense to me as it's completely tangential and only exists to put anothers' perspective in a negative light.

Yes, it's apparent that you don't get it. There's nothing to get though. The youtuber was just a tangental thing to illustrate another point. You're the one who's so stuck now trying to defend him or whatever you're doing now. The youtuber or his video was never the focus, no one cared about that, nor does anyone care about it now even if you contine to push the issue.And you're the one that's painting someone's opinion in a negative light, not me. :wink:

Lastly, i've had enough of the digression right about now, if you want to stay on topic, good, if not, i'm out. No need to derail this thread any further.

[Leo G.4501]

@Veprovina.4876 said:And you're the one that's painting someone's opinion in a negative light, not me. :wink:

Nice try. Picking apart people because their player skill level is laughable to you is pretty negative ;)

[Veprovina.4876]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:And you're the one that's painting someone's opinion in a negative light, not me. :wink:

Nice try. Picking apart people because their player skill level is laughable to you is pretty negative ;)

Quote me where i said his skills are laughable to me or anything of the sort.

Also, can you please get back on topic in your next post as well?

[Leo G.4501]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:And you're the one that's painting someone's opinion in a negative light, not me. :wink:

Nice try. Picking apart people because their player skill level is laughable to you is pretty negative ;)

Quote me where i said his skills are laughable to me or anything of the sort.

Also, can you please get back on topic in your next post as well?

But doesn't you quoting someone who is making fun of someone's player skill even if you're not explicitly stating such mean that you agree with that quoted point thus you are guilty by association? No? Might want to inform your buddy @""robertthebard.8150" about that (emphasis bolded):

@"robertthebard.8150" said:

I find it rather funny that he gets roflstomped by the same mob at level 50 that got him at level 1. I also find that that level of "skill", read "the lack thereof" means that he's really not a reliable source for information about MMOs.

I made the same comment on that video that I'll leave here: If you're getting rolled by the same mobs at level 50 that rolled you at level one, the game's not the problem.

That also makes his whole premise of criticizing those systems kinda flawed to begin with no? Cause you CAN dominate lower maps...I don't know... Anyway, personally, i don't find that guy an authority on anything, just think of him as some person with his opinion. He has right to those, but i'm going to hold my right to disagree.

But I guess I'd be barking up the wrong tree too if pointing out that the guy you're criticizing probably has far more authority to criticize MMOs since he makes a youtube following criticizing a wide array of MMOs, likely more than you or me have played.

To be clear: I'm not saying the guy is an authority or even defending him. I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy and contradictions in your argument.

As for getting back to the topic, by all means: MY perspective is that P2W, in GW2, takes form in buying currency with cash that can transfer into power. Does that power put you above someone without the cash? It can but it's limited. Rather than changing the definition of P2W on the introspective of a GW2 player, let the definition ride and have the player who is deciding on playing the game make that decision on if it is worthwhile to play. Why? Because more games are being labeled P2W (and rightfully so) and fighting misconceptions is more difficult than just telling someone to try and play the game. Rather than emotionally manipulate people with categories like "pay-for-convenience" or "buy-to-play", just be transparent. Even if you don't view the game as P2W, someone else does and trying to reach those isn't a folly.

[HappyHubris.1096]

I said Maybe.While players can technically get by with the baseline bank space, crafting materials, space, and the like it definitely would be a hassle. You also miss out on the broader living story content if you didn't log into the game at appropriate points, requiring additional investment to know what the hell is going on and/or have the quickest paths to certain gear.

There's also buying gold and how quickly that can expedite progress. While one can grind for gold and then grind for more gold to buy gems, it's definitely slower than buying gems and then buying the gold you need.The $500 gem store player and the $0 gem store player can end up at the same level of gearing, but the $500 guy has a much quicker route.

[Linken.6345]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You did not mention FF11, you mentioned FF14. That's what I replied to and that is where you were selective. Again, you clearly did not notice how FF14 HAS pay to win elements according to the video you linked.

No, you said every game can fall under P2W so I mentioned FFXIV, then you described its P2W features so then I point to FFXI. My point was there are games that are still on the market that are not P2W which is all I have to prove with that line of discussion.

To give you an example you can easily compare it to: it's like your argument saying my definition of P2W is too broad, you only have to prove that it is broad.

@Cyninja.2954 said:I never said they were mutually exclusive. Not once. On the contrary, by using different terms instead of lumping all of it together under 1 term I, unlike the opinion of the video which claims they are all the same, can

make distinctions of how much of any of these monetizations are present in a game.

Oh, maybe I'm reaching you then. You're starting to get it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:and this threads title is:

Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

Which is what is being discussed and which I am responding to and in fact under which premise I have given my opinion on the video. Given the by now overwhelming majority of votes on this pole (relative to the total sample size), it seems most voters present seem to disagree with the opinion put forth in the video (which would obviously be skewed in favor of the game, given it is its official message board yet the vote is very overwhelmingly one sided), which would label GW2 as pay to win. Otherwise we would see a more congruent result.

Notice I didn't even vote.

Polls aren't quantifiable evidence, merely prediction tools to map perception. Considering the first couple of pages were dedicated to arguing what P2W even is, me posting the video (which you still seem to not understand the purpose of) was to critique what P2W DOES, not define it. Just because you haven't ascended to that debate yet doesn't mean I can't present it to the discussion because I feel it's even more important considering the direction games are taking with regards to the amount of funds poured into them and the expectations they are held to.

@Cyninja.2954 said:That's not how classifications work. The most broad classification is the most meaningless for establishing differences.

You keep claiming I am covering things up which is the exact opposite of what using multiple terms to quantify and define things is. You either don't understand how classification works and/or of what use it is, or you are being intentionally obtuse because your opinion does not make sense.

You can classify all you want but for broad terms like this, merely only using the audience of GW2 to define it should seem more suspect to you if all you truly want to do is make distinctions. It'd be like having only oil companies make regulations regarding global environmental impact. It's not transparent and easily prone to corruption.

You can still classify and categorize but it appears you and those that agree with you feel so emboldened that you are now dividing out your group from the category purely so your game looks better among the rest further demonstrated by the repeat rebuttals of "anyone who votes GW2 P2W, go look at this really heinous example of xyz". Seriously, get some perspective...

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sure there are cases where games do not apply. I'm also sure those cases are so niche by now in the MMORPG genre, as mentioned by the videos creator himself proactively, that expanding the pay to win definition to nearly all games makes it lose its purpose if the purpose is to use the term as reference to specific types of monetization schemes.

And what monetization scheme is that? What purpose are you referencing?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Great, we are on the same page. I will continue to use the term pay to win to warn and label the most harmful and grievous elements in games for others to know about, while using other terms like pay for convenience to label other similar but less grievous elements in games so each and every player can decide for themselves how much of additional micro-transactions (which is literally the term we have to label all of these transactions) they can handle instead of lumping all of it together as being the same.

Meanwhile you can do you.

You're claiming the win-factor and the intent. One of the primary vices of many MMOs now IS they are pushing for more and more convenience which can be damaging to the game overall. It's almost like P2W can ruin a game in different ways.....which was outlined in a youtube video for your convenience.

If I remember right FF 11 is a sub base game right?

So you have to pay to play.If I dont pay I cant play hence I lose, so fits pay to win to a T right?

[Chyanne Waters.8719]

@Fueki.4753 said:Yes, it objectively is pay to win.Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

OK tell us which games give away all their expansions. I know GW2 gives away 1 with the purchase of the other.

[Obtena.7952]

The poll should really be "If you have P2W ... does it really matter?"

[robertthebard.8150]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Why? I didn't try to use the creator as some kind of information to support a claim. I merely pointed out that his knowledge is flawed. You obviously agree with him, or you wouldn't cite him in this thread. I reject his knowledge, and his ability, and the only reason I need is "I've watched him play". Of course, as an inferior player, he's going to think that anyone that plays better than him is P2W. I sure that he, as you seem to, or you wouldn't cite him, believes that he's a pinnacle of MMO knowledge. The issue is, he's not. I've seen that watching his gameplay in one video, where he's complaining about level scaling. That's all I need. I gave that video, and the one you've linked here all the consideration they deserve; I disliked his level scaling video, and I didn't click on this one, because I don't want to support his channel, when he's not parsing good information.

Hmm, did I not say I posted his video more arbitrarily than authoritatively? Did I not say I can disagree with someone's conclusions or opinions but still find common ground or understanding? You don't have to agree with someone on everything, you know...

...but then you've stated you didn't even watch the video so why even argue the validity when I stated MY perspective for you to critique? Oh right, because if someone references something you don't like or disagree with, it invalidates their entire argument. Gotcha. Flawed response but noted.

...and yet, here we are, discussing your opinions on his content, instead of just dismissing him out of hand. You see, by continuing this tangent, you are, in fact, defending him. When you ask "did you watch the video I provided", you are, in fact, citing him as a source. The fact that you provided the video at all means that you saw something in his flawed logic that appealed to your sense of "right" in this dialog. I should note that, despite watching his gameplay, and finding it lacking, I based my opinion of his video on what he actually said. If he's that far off base on that video, I have no reason to believe he's any closer to correct on anything else. If a discussion on level scaling were to come up, I certainly wouldn't link the video, and then try to claim that I wasn't trying to use it as supporting evidence to any claims I might make in that thread...

[Leo G.4501]

@Linken.6345 said:

If I remember right FF 11 is a sub base game right?

So you have to pay to play.If I dont pay I cant play hence I lose, so fits pay to win to a T right?

It's a Pay2play in the purest sense.

Having recently had an 8 month stint with the game that I cut off because I couldn't play for a couple months due to work related time management (my character is still there from over 20 years ago!), it really does demonstrate the difference between old-era MMOs and new-era ones in the realm of convenience. There is no paying to advance the story, paying to unlock jobs/skills, paying to get to max level, paying for gold, paying to get teleports to new cities.

I'm sure there are other games that have a similar convenience wall out there but FFXI is the one I know.

@"Obtena.7952" said:The poll should really be "If you have P2W ... does it really matter?"

That's pretty much my point but rather "If GW2 has P2W, does it affect the game negatively?"

@"robertthebard.8150" said:...and yet, here we are, discussing your opinions on his content, instead of just dismissing him out of hand. You see, by continuing this tangent, you are, in fact, defending him. When you ask "did you watch the video I provided", you are, in fact, citing him as a source. The fact that you provided the video at all means that you saw something in his flawed logic that appealed to your sense of "right" in this dialog. I should note that, despite watching his gameplay, and finding it lacking, I based my opinion of his video on what he actually said. If he's that far off base on that video, I have no reason to believe he's any closer to correct on anything else. If a discussion on level scaling were to come up, I certainly wouldn't link the video, and then try to claim that I wasn't trying to use it as supporting evidence to any claims I might make in that thread...

Firstly, the reason I kept saying "did you watch the video I provided" is so I wouldn't have to continuously explain the point that P2W can have broad definitions but moreso that regardless of the definition, it's how it affects the game that is the important part. I'm not saying that anymore because I've already had to thoroughly explain that multiple times now. To put it more poignantly: what you consider "pay-for-convenience" now was "pay-to-win" not even a decade ago but it's not the definition of a term that matters, it's the shift of the industry. Same situation with loot boxes and people complaining about the mountfit adoption license fiasco. Lootboxes aren't the same as the licenses but you'll have people lump them together anyway...but what you call them isn't even important, it's the overall pricing that should be the focus.

Secondly and lastly, I already stated the reason I posted the video is because it was in my youtube feed. It touched on P2W and I happened to be browsing these forums at the same time and decided it was important to point out. Has nothing to do with citing him as a source or as an authority but rather a discussion point on what P2W does to a game and its playerbase. The video was never about defining P2W but how each aspect of what P2W can mean affects things like making a class of 'haves' and 'have nots', developers intentionally implementing problems to sell you the solution, etc.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

[Coeruleum.9164]

GW2 is pay to play. Pay to win means you have to pay money to win the game. In GW2 you just have to buy most of the game but once you buy it you don't have to pay anything else. I know people who have all the popular content (skyscales, good cosmetics, etc.) and haven't paid for anything except the expansions. Buying the expansions is necessary for lots of things so I don't count PvP. It's not like once you buy the expansions like virtually everyone who plays this game, you can buy any upgrades that make you better at PvP.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Leo G.4501" said:As for getting back to the topic, by all means: MY perspective is that P2W, in GW2, takes form in buying currency with cash that can transfer into power. Does that power put you above someone without the cash? It can but it's limited. Rather than changing the definition of P2W on the introspective of a GW2 player, let the definition ride and have the player who is deciding on playing the game make that decision on if it is worthwhile to play. Why? Because more games are being labeled P2W (and rightfully so) and fighting misconceptions is more difficult than just telling someone to try and play the game. Rather than emotionally manipulate people with categories like "pay-for-convenience" or "buy-to-play", just be transparent. Even if you don't view the game as P2W, someone else does and trying to reach those isn't a folly.

But one have to keep going back to this; what power can you buy from the cashshop that make you win over other players?

Trying to be transparent, the only thing I can think of is a very, very specific situation in WvW where having more templates allows you to adapt to the enemy faster - something most people wont use because they are already running their "best" build for any given scenario. And also you can convert gold to get that, so the cashshop doesnt actually hold you back on condition of real cash.

The rest is... convenience. There are lots of things one want but nothing that gives you power to win. So what exact examples do you have if we are supposed to be fully transparent?

[robertthebard.8150]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:...and yet, here we are, discussing your opinions on his content, instead of just dismissing him out of hand. You see, by continuing this tangent, you are, in fact, defending him. When you ask "did you watch the video I provided", you are, in fact, citing him as a source. The fact that you provided the video at all means that you saw something in his flawed logic that appealed to your sense of "right" in this dialog. I should note that, despite watching his gameplay, and finding it lacking, I based my opinion of his video on what he actually said. If he's that far off base on that video, I have no reason to believe he's any closer to correct on anything else. If a discussion on level scaling were to come up, I certainly wouldn't link the video, and then try to claim that I wasn't trying to use it as supporting evidence to any claims I might make in that thread...

Firstly, the reason I kept saying "did you watch the video I provided" is so I wouldn't have to continuously explain the point that P2W can have broad definitions but moreso that regardless of the definition, it's how it affects the game that is the important part. I'm not saying that anymore because I've already had to thoroughly explain that multiple times now. To put it more poignantly: what you consider "pay-for-convenience" now was "pay-to-win" not even a decade ago but it's not the definition of a term that matters, it's the shift of the industry. Same situation with loot boxes and people complaining about the mountfit adoption license fiasco. Lootboxes aren't the same as the licenses but you'll have people lump them together anyway...but what you call them isn't even important, it's the overall pricing that should be the focus.

Secondly and lastly, I already stated the reason I posted the video is because it was in my youtube feed. It touched on P2W and I happened to be browsing these forums at the same time and decided it was important to point out. Has nothing to do with citing him as a source or as an authority but rather a discussion point on what P2W does to a game and its playerbase. The video was never about defining P2W but how each aspect of what P2W can mean affects things like making a class of 'haves' and 'have nots', developers intentionally implementing problems to sell you the solution, etc.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

P2W doesn't have a broad definition. The only place it's broad is in people that don't like microtransactions at all, and then everything is P2W. In this thread alone, we've seen Inventory and bank space. I'd bet some of those posters would even run with character slots if someone pointed out having characters that are essentially mules to hold items. When you link a video in a conversation, you are citing a source. There is no other reason to link a video. It says "see, here's my proof", and despite your claim that that's not what you're doing, you go on to do just that, by stating his opinion of what it does to a player base.

So here's my question then: Can you tell how much I've spent on bag space when we're fighting mobs side by side? Do you know how much bank space I have? How many shared inventory slots do I have? Can you figure out how many character slots I have? Because out in the world, fighting mobs, we're all the same basic level. You, or I, may have more skills on our bar, depending on what actual level we may be, but none of that required any cash at all. I don't recall ever using an XP booster, or even thinking I needed any, other than the ones I got for my character birthdays. Level to 10, do the personal story, level to 20 with an item from my birthday, and do the next part. I quit doing that even, because I noticed I was having to clear maps to get to story zones that would have been cleared if I'd just played to 20. No cash outlay required though, just having characters for x amount of time for birthday presents, or log in rewards.

So lumping all this stuff in as P2W? Nope, not going to buy it. "But there's a video on YouTube that says so" isn't compelling, especially given the source. Why is that so hard to understand?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Yes, it

objectively

is pay to win.Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

Expansions witch contain elite specialiations are not considered pay to win.Instead you pay to continue playing the game.

Not sure ALL core classes would be accepted in raids.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Yes, it

objectively

is pay to win.Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

Expansions witch contain elite specialiations are not considered pay to win.Instead you pay to continue playing the game.

Not sure ALL core classes would be accepted in raids.Not all classes are "accepted" in many places... and not even all elites. So thats not really about core vs elite.

Its kind of hard to argue that a firebrand is p2w over a deadeye because of WvW raiding.

[Swagger.1459]

@Leo G.4501

“MY perspective is that P2W, in GW2, takes form in buying currency with cash that can transfer into power.”

What statistically advantageous “power” is only available for those willing to fork over cash?

Does this “power” allow a paying customer to defeat or win against someone who didn’t spend the cash?

And I would like buy this “power” with my credit card today, so where is it on the gemstore or in game?