Another frustrating day in WvW

[Veprovina.4876]

@Senqu.8054 said:@Veprovina.4876 i think we will not come together here. I’m realistic, ANet couldn’t balance this mechanic for 8 years. The most devs who had very creative ideas already left the game development. To think that it can be balanced in the next years is a little bit naive in my opinion.

Well, different people and different opinions and all that. :smile: No big deal, we don't have to agree on everything.

That I lost the fun of this game is not really true. I just or better we just lost every single option of how we played this profession in 8 years. There is nothing that can excuse this. And then still demanding for balance changes in hope that it will now give Mesmers freedom after they received one year no balance is nowhere near my logical understanding. Maybe I should be thankful for no changes, because even if the profession received changes it was a dull 50% cut. And every single time I had to craft like what? 2 or 3 new EQs because the old builds were killed again and oddly every single build needed this one trait because it was the only meta trait Mesmer had. Maybe I’m a little bit scared of what will happen when clones are again in a high health pool meta.

Well... Call me an eternal optimist. :tongue: Besides, i didn't actually say they'll do it - just that it CAN be done. Whether or not they'll actually give Mesmers some attention i don't know. I'm leaning towards the realistic side of "they won't" as well, but one can hope i guess.

And why I’m not playing a other game or other profession? Look I play guild wars since the release of guild wars prophecy’s (since 16 years) my first class was a Mesmer. It belongs to my child hood memory’s. I waited 6 long years for the release of guild wars 2. And what we got there was magical and beyond everything. It had the potential to be one of the best mmos of all time. And now I have to wait for better times since 2 or 3 years? I’m already doing my „break“ for to long :( I am a loyal Customer who has payed this company a lot of money over the years. I just demand that they should get their heads out of each other’s kitten and do something productive instead of literally taking my toys away xD I already see the next nerfs to inspiration trait line -.-

That's some mighty strong connection right there! No wonder you're so frustrated. I mean, i get it. We choose to spend our time and money in this game, and all we get in return is abuse based on other people's objectively wrong opinion that mesmer is OP. So they nerf us to stop people from crying. Then suddenly (after the nerf with no compensation) Mesmer is OP again. Another nerf. And another... And then other "mesmers" start justifying them. Nerf after nerf with no compensation whatsoever. And yet we play the game and spend our money in it, but all we get from it is more "abuse" (i hesitently call it that because it's a game after all but you know what i mean).

Btw. There is no better game out there. We all know that, it’s a fact haha :3 GW2 combat ruined me and my experience with other mmos. It’s a kitten drug -.-

This we can 100% agree on! :sweat_smile: I tried other MMOs countless times, yet i get completely lost in each and every one, and since most have "different business practices" i start missing what i have here in GW2. So i always come back. It's the best MMO period, and once you try it and experience the freedom you'll forever miss it in other MMOs... Anet crafted one hell of a drug here lol. :tongue:

[Jables.4659]

@Yoci.2481 said:

@Jables.4659 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating.

It really is. I was a die hard power mirage player during the two-dodge-mirage era, but I almost exclusively play core hybrid now (2100 power, 1150 condition dmg, 40% crit chance before stacks and fury). Out of everything I've tested since the Feb. Patch, Dueling/Illusions/Chaos Scepter/Torch Sword/Pistol seems to be the most effective for solo roaming. The only things that really hard counter it are Power Dragonhunter and Strength Spellbreaker due to their insane reveal uptime and this builds reliance on stealth. It could be argued that thief should still be a hard counter, but I've only come across two thieves in the past year that were any challenge (which probably says more about the quality of thief players than anything else). Power Mesmer still functions when you have team mates to back you up, but when it gets hard focused it crumbles way too quickly to be a viable solo roamer. In a lot of cases, I think Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol Hybrid Mirage is the best Mesmer build for dueling, but if the build can't 1vX its not really worth solo roaming on imo.

Here's a clip of it in action. Obviously my opponents here are not the cream of the crop (you can't realistically win 1vX fights against genuinely skilled players).

I'm not saying that Mesmer isn't in a bad place (it definitely is), but this build is capable of holding its own against good players as long as the driver knows what they're doing. Right now the thing that frustrates me the most is how stealth reliant Core Mesmer is. When I was deep into Power Mirage I could practically ignore marked areas because stealth was just a small part of its toolkit. How hard could it be to tone down the marked stuff in WvW? Not only do we need to worry about sentrys, towers, and keeps, but I have come across a few players who incorporate Target Painter Traps into their fight style and it really shuts Core Chaos Mesmer down. If a thief gets hit by a target painter trap he can just teleport out of combat and wait out the timer, but Mesmer is basically kitten.

I remember watching and liking some of your videos, but I think you never posted your build. Did I see it right that you use Deceptive Evasion over Ineptitude?

Yep, I also use evasive mirror over blinding dissipation.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Ineptitude is only for condi builds for power builds u need the deceptive evasion to do dmg considering bulk of ur dmg comes from shatter skills not weapon skills. And also its a no brainer to take evasive mirror over blinding dissipation, again it goes back to mesmer potato lackluster traits which makes nearly all builds the same.

[Yoci.2481]

@Jables.4659 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:

@Jables.4659 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating.

It really is. I was a die hard power mirage player during the two-dodge-mirage era, but I almost exclusively play core hybrid now (2100 power, 1150 condition dmg, 40% crit chance before stacks and fury). Out of everything I've tested since the Feb. Patch, Dueling/Illusions/Chaos Scepter/Torch Sword/Pistol seems to be the most effective for solo roaming. The only things that really hard counter it are Power Dragonhunter and Strength Spellbreaker due to their insane reveal uptime and this builds reliance on stealth. It could be argued that thief should still be a hard counter, but I've only come across two thieves in the past year that were any challenge (which probably says more about the quality of thief players than anything else). Power Mesmer still functions when you have team mates to back you up, but when it gets hard focused it crumbles way too quickly to be a viable solo roamer. In a lot of cases, I think Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol Hybrid Mirage is the best Mesmer build for dueling, but if the build can't 1vX its not really worth solo roaming on imo.

Here's a clip of it in action. Obviously my opponents here are not the cream of the crop (you can't realistically win 1vX fights against genuinely skilled players).

I'm not saying that Mesmer isn't in a bad place (it definitely is), but this build is capable of holding its own against good players as long as the driver knows what they're doing. Right now the thing that frustrates me the most is how stealth reliant Core Mesmer is. When I was deep into Power Mirage I could practically ignore marked areas because stealth was just a small part of its toolkit. How hard could it be to tone down the marked stuff in WvW? Not only do we need to worry about sentrys, towers, and keeps, but I have come across a few players who incorporate Target Painter Traps into their fight style and it really shuts Core Chaos Mesmer down. If a thief gets hit by a target painter trap he can just teleport out of combat and wait out the timer, but Mesmer is basically kitten.

I remember watching and liking some of your videos, but I think you never posted your build. Did I see it right that you use Deceptive Evasion over Ineptitude?

Yep, I also use evasive mirror over blinding dissipation.

Thank you, could you maybe post your full build? I would like to try it. :)

[Zoser.7245]

In the previous balance discussion about the 3/23 PvP Balance patch, there was a sentence that caught my attention:

" While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. "

Uhmmmm, if AI-heavy builds must not be relevant or a pillar of the PvP meta.... And any mesmer build relies on their illusions to be effective and those are AI based less the mesmer itself, or in other words,, with AI-heavy builds/mechanics. Then, from the devs philosophy point of view, mesmers should/must also be unwanted as a pillar of the PvP meta or relevant in the PvP meta and competitive modes. Right? Interesting... ;)

[JazzXman.7018]

@"Zoser.7245" said:In the previous balance discussion about the 3/23 PvP Balance patch, there was a sentence that caught my attention:

" While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. "

Uhmmmm, if AI-heavy builds must not be relevant or a pillar of the PvP meta.... And any mesmer build relies on their illusions to be effective and those are AI based less the mesmer itself, or in other words,, with AI-heavy builds/mechanics. Then, from the devs philosophy point of view, mesmers should/must also be unwanted as a pillar of the PvP meta or relevant in the PvP meta and competitive modes. Right? Interesting... ;)

ai heavy means builds where npcs are permanently up doing a lot of stuff by their own as long as they are alive (while being alive for longer and have more than one attack that actually has impact without the player doing anything for it). after illusion rework you cant play phantasm builds anymore (only phantasm spam builds but that is something different to a mm nec or a turret engi). not even mirage ih clones with ambushes hit that characteristic, since the player has to blow a cooldown and press a button (dodge) to get the related one clone ambush attack the player has to time himself. the only thing on mesmer falls into ai heavy characteristic is the condi dmg on clones normal autoattacks which should get deleted anyway. condi clone ambushes are also a problem but only bc of the wrong ambush design making the condi ambush dmg reward totally passive since the condi mirage doesnt need to dodge offensive to time them well for maximum ambush reward. ih clones should also only have utilities and not dmg on ambushes, just like sword ambush is designed but that also has nothign to do with being ai-heavy in the sense anet should mean it (in the only way it makes sense actually).

but yeah since there is not a single dev left with any clue about mesmer it can happen that they put mesmer under that category just as they never nerf the right stuff on mesmer

[Silverlock.9736]

@Yoci.2481 said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating. Everything kills you. Everyone who is at least half way decent will kill you, while having more mobility and resustain ability. Some professions counter you so hard it's not even funny. The balance is so bad it is emberassing. Don't they have some tools that can keep track of stuff like that?This is not fun. This is not entertaining. This is not challenging. I can not recommend anyone play Mesmer as a roamer in WvW. Not Core, not Chronomancer, not Mirage. Because everyone who is not new or mostly a PvE player will defeat you. Maybe I am just bad. But why am I so much better when I play other professions, even ones I haven't spent much time on?

I agree but I am new. I tried WvW for the first time with little. I used my Mesmer and my Ranger. The ranger managed to solo kill a few other players. The Chrono Mesmer I was running just died. Players never seemed confused about my clones. It was a rough time.

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Silverlock.9736 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating. Everything kills you. Everyone who is at least half way decent will kill you, while having more mobility and resustain ability. Some professions counter you so hard it's not even funny. The balance is so bad it is emberassing. Don't they have some tools that can keep track of stuff like that?This is not fun. This is not entertaining. This is not challenging. I can not recommend anyone play Mesmer as a roamer in WvW. Not Core, not Chronomancer, not Mirage. Because everyone who is not new or mostly a PvE player will defeat you. Maybe I am just bad. But why am I so much better when I play other professions, even ones I haven't spent much time on?

I agree but I am new. I tried WvW for the first time with little. I used my Mesmer and my Ranger. The ranger managed to solo kill a few other players. The Chrono Mesmer I was running just died. Players never seemed confused about my clones. It was a rough time.

Mesmers are newb stompers, veteran players will know the difference between a clone and the real player based on the buff icons you have on you. As well as clones are soo easily killed its not hard to just kill the clones and find you afterwards since mesmer's bulk damage relies on clones.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Generally this is the problem of what happens when ANet nerfs the symptoms instead of the actual problems.Aside from the obvious busted OP Chrono at HoT launch, Mirage was the problem, not Mesmer. They didn't need to nerf core traits but instead rework Mirage because MC is a mechanic that cannot be balanced for PvP environments.

Thief has the same issue except the problem build is still left alone, because if it gets gutted then there's otherwise no incentive to play it at all (Mesmer at least can command in WvW extremely well on Chrono, though of course this use case is very limited which 99% of players will not utilize).

[Senqu.8054]

@"Zoser.7245" said:In the previous balance discussion about the 3/23 PvP Balance patch, there was a sentence that caught my attention:

" While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. "

Uhmmmm, if AI-heavy builds must not be relevant or a pillar of the PvP meta.... And any mesmer build relies on their illusions to be effective and those are AI based less the mesmer itself, or in other words,, with AI-heavy builds/mechanics. Then, from the devs philosophy point of view, mesmers should/must also be unwanted as a pillar of the PvP meta or relevant in the PvP meta and competitive modes. Right? Interesting... ;)

And People still push for higher clone health pools or similar things instead of letting this shit die where it belongs. Clones = Ai = bad. It who am I to judge, lets go for 10 more years of half baked Mesmer reworks yey and 50% nerfs

[Tseison.4659]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@"Zoser.7245" said:In the previous balance discussion about the 3/23 PvP Balance patch, there was a sentence that caught my attention:

" While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. "

Uhmmmm, if AI-heavy builds must not be relevant or a pillar of the PvP meta.... And any mesmer build relies on their illusions to be effective and those are AI based less the mesmer itself, or in other words,, with AI-heavy builds/mechanics. Then, from the devs philosophy point of view, mesmers should/must also be unwanted as a pillar of the PvP meta or relevant in the PvP meta and competitive modes. Right? Interesting... ;)

And People still push for higher clone health pools or similar things instead of letting this kitten die where it belongs. Clones = Ai = bad.

It who am I to judge, lets go for 10 more years of half baked Mesmer reworks yey and 50% nerfs

My thoughts exactly... please let people like SaltMode and Mungo Zen know about that as well...

[mungozen.2379]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

@"Zoser.7245" said:In the previous balance discussion about the 3/23 PvP Balance patch, there was a sentence that caught my attention:

" While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. "

Uhmmmm, if AI-heavy builds must not be relevant or a pillar of the PvP meta.... And any mesmer build relies on their illusions to be effective and those are AI based less the mesmer itself, or in other words,, with AI-heavy builds/mechanics. Then, from the devs philosophy point of view, mesmers should/must also be unwanted as a pillar of the PvP meta or relevant in the PvP meta and competitive modes. Right? Interesting... ;)

And People still push for higher clone health pools or similar things instead of letting this kitten die where it belongs. Clones = Ai = bad.

It who am I to judge, lets go for 10 more years of half baked Mesmer reworks yey and 50% nerfs

My thoughts exactly... please let people like SaltMode and Mungo Zen know about that as well...

You could have tagged me to let me know yourself but, what am I taking away from this? I think you may have the wrong player to be tagging here as I am pretty sure I have no opinion on Clone Health. If you are referencing something specifically I have posted, please quote it here.

However, are Clones really AI? I don't know one way or the other but I would assume that they don't make decisions like Necro Minions or Ranger Pets do.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:However, are Clones really AI? I don't know one way or the other but I would assume that they don't make decisions like Necro Minions or Ranger Pets do.

Well anything in the game that acts on it's own can probably be considered AI, it's just that, clones have such a basic one that i would argue they can hardly be classified as AI anyway... All they do is basically spawn and attack, then run at the target when you use a shatter. They're brainless. Not sure though if that's a good thing or if they should have some sort of AI...

[Tseison.4659]

@"Veprovina.4876" said:All they do is basically spawn and attack, then run at the target when you use a shatter. They're brainless.

Period and end of story. but supposedly people like that kind of "dps" as opposed to something new and unique. Fingers crossed for something more viable in EoD.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:

All they do is basically spawn and attack, then run at the target when you use a shatter. They're brainless.

Period and end of story. but supposedly people like that kind of "dps" as opposed to something new and unique. Fingers crossed for something more viable in EoD.

I don't know, i always viewed clones as a unique mechanic, i mean, no other MMO has anything like that, summon clones of yourself and shatter for damage...But i don't really have an opinion if they should be improved as an AI or left like that because as they are, they're there for one thing, and maybe ambushes with a Mirage, but you know what to do with them, it's intuitive to a point.

I'm curious, what would you suggest for the clone AI improvement? What should they do instead of just attacking in your opinion? And what's "new an unique" in your opinion as well if clones and shatters aren't?

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

And People still push for higher clone health pools or similar things instead of letting this kitten die where it belongs. Clones = Ai = bad.

It who am I to judge, lets go for 10 more years of half baked Mesmer reworks yey and 50% nerfs

My thoughts exactly... please let people like SaltMode and Mungo Zen know about that as well...

So the difference between clones vs minions and ranger pets is clones are used to shatter which is mesmer's core mechanic. Aside from mirage ambush clones don't do damage at all. Asking for higher hp pool isn't to put them as the same level as minionmancers or ranger pets or rather find a way to allow shatters to land without clones dying and not landing shatters at all.I agree mesmers should get a revamp and stop relying on clones so much but then again it will be no different then any other class with rehashed skills with different glow effects.Stop trying to compare necro minion or ranger pets because one is actual AI the other is resource that we need for other skill effects. If you guys dont understand the difference between the two then are you really a mesmer player?

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

My personal opinion is that phantasms should've been a 1 and done deal, and that they wouldn't actually be killable, but targettable. Just to screw with the enemy a bit. And that clones should be extremely expendable & easy to generate. I'm talking Mesmer scepter's level of easy to generate across the board.

Would make shattering a less punishing mechanic, and since phantasms don't continue to exist you can afford to give some roids to the rest of the Mesmer's kit.

Ofc, you now have to be careful about any change you make to core Mesmer because, well. Chrono's there to do it 2-3 times in a row if you make it too strong.....

Is it too late to delete continuum split and have a new profession mechanic?

[Senqu.8054]

Turrets of engineers are also considered AI based, even if they just attack and explode.. we know what happened to them.

That clones are the resource for the class mechanic is Mesmers main problem... It was never so spammy to play Mesmer as it is right now. Clones do not live long enough to not be shattered in a reasonable time.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I would not care so much for going back and buffing builds like turret engie, if clones would get the same treatment. I’m always for more build diversity. I loved the old clone builds. I still want to play them. I still think you could make it work BUT we are here with the given developers and community. 8 years of Community qq and bad decision ended up in deleting a core mechanic after countless 50% nerfs.

The Mesmer community itself talked to the developers and made a list of numerous changes to implement to make it work again. Jazz even talked directly to a dev about this topic (it’s on Video) and have you guys heard what they suggested instead of giving the dodge back? Buffing the healing output... Come on...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I decided to experiment with Power Mirage in WvW. Full Marauder set with scholar runes, force + energy sigils, running the Dueling/Inspiration/Mirage signet build.

My goodness it was terrible. I mean, I only have 6 of the mighty infusions on it, but the thing hits like a wet noodle. Doing so little as claiming camps is like pulling teeth. I'm pretty new on this, but I can basically echo the sentiments that most people have:

Low Damage. Like, really low. On a glass build I shouldn't blow through every single cooldown I have, only to have my enemy tank it all and remain with half health.
Low CleaveRequires an inordinate amount of trait/utility dedication just to make the gimmick work. It plays like a worse thief.
Clones die too fastWay too much time being forced into greatsword auto

[Jtoon.6907]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I decided to experiment with Power Mirage in WvW. Full Marauder set with scholar runes, force + energy sigils, running the Dueling/Inspiration/Mirage signet build.

My goodness it was terrible. I mean, I only have 6 of the mighty infusions on it, but the thing hits like a wet noodle. Doing so little as claiming camps is like pulling teeth. I'm pretty new on this, but I can basically echo the sentiments that most people have:

Low Damage. Like, really low. On a glass build I shouldn't blow through every single cooldown I have, only to have my enemy tank it all and remain with half health.

Low CleaveRequires an inordinate amount of trait/utility dedication just to make the gimmick work. It plays like a worse thief.

Clones die too fastWay too much time being forced into greatsword auto

Most I have seen with Mirage which I have tried myself in roaming WVW is that it is a case of retreat until you find someone at a disadvantage. I ended up going core Mesmer that @Jables.4659 posted above which isn’t quick but gives you a fighting chance.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I decided to experiment with Power Mirage in WvW. Full Marauder set with scholar runes, force + energy sigils, running the Dueling/Inspiration/Mirage signet build.

My goodness it was terrible. I mean, I only have 6 of the mighty infusions on it, but the thing hits like a wet noodle. Doing so little as claiming camps is like pulling teeth. I'm pretty new on this, but I can basically echo the sentiments that most people have:

Low Damage. Like, really low. On a glass build I shouldn't blow through every single cooldown I have, only to have my enemy tank it all and remain with half health.

Low CleaveRequires an inordinate amount of trait/utility dedication just to make the gimmick work. It plays like a worse thief.

Clones die too fastWay too much time being forced into greatsword auto

And god forbid you get jumped by a roamer when fighting guards, you can just put your mouse and keyboard away and just let it happen because you're not going to make a dent in anyone, let alone survive...

Try running power mesmer (any elite or core) in group fights. It's hilariously bad. You can forget about shattering, clones - the things 90% of your damage and utility comes from - just never survive, and phantasms don't even appear 100% of the time.

Yeah, Mesmers are fine, they're in a "good place right now". :tired_face:

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Veprovina.4876 said:phantasms don't even appear 100% of the time.

The thing is when mesmers get blind it is extremely crippling more so then other classes, it prevents skills that summon clones and phantasms which i really dont understand why.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:phantasms don't even appear 100% of the time.

The thing is when mesmers get blind it is extremely crippling more so then other classes, it prevents skills that summon clones and phantasms which i really dont understand why.

Really? Blind stops phantasms from spawning?Lol, that's kinda broken isn't it?I mean, i guess, it's a skill, and blind causes a miss, but like, come on, that's 90% of our damage right there denied by one simple blind.Jeez, i'm losing more and more faith in Anet by the bug lol. First Null field, then this... Can Mesmers do anything without it being just roflstomped by practically everything?

Also, it's not just that, it's how phantasms work. First they need a target, then it takes forever for it to appear - meanwhile your target is god knows where and the phantasm might be already out of range or your target dead (group fights). BLocking with a Shield in WvW never spawned phantasm for me, let alone it becoming a clone, but hey, at least block still has its uses right?

Anet, for the love of God, fix this mess! :disappointed:I'm literally spamming 2 skills in WvW because all others are unreliable. And the ones i'm spamming are weak too.

[Junkpile.7439]

I don't know. I feel that enemies are more frustrated than me in wvw. I am little bit scared that these "mesmers" who mesmering wrong get my most mesmerizing build nerfed. B)

[Yoci.2481]

Sure all of us are doing Mesmer wrong.