Another frustrating day in WvW

[lockhart.6048]

Mesmer has almost always just been a utility mule since the inception of the game, and it's honestly so annoying that nothing has changed. The only times I can recall them being used for something other than null field/ portal / veil are Chronoboon bots and Glamour condi bomb (WAY WAY long ago lol). Besides those 2 times, it's always been preferred to have at most like 2 Mesmers in a squad, 3 for something like a 50+ squad. It's ridiculous honestly

[Veprovina.4876]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:Watch some mesmer main or some anti mesmers come here to post saying they do fantastic that everything is ok and alright and that you just suck post. While showing some kitten flashy montage that probably took days of clips to combine together to make it look great.

And what do you know, here it is:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating. Everything kills you. Everyone who is at least half way decent will kill you, while having more mobility and resustain ability. Some professions counter you so hard it's not even funny. The balance is so bad it is emberassing. Don't they have some tools that can keep track of stuff like that?This is not fun. This is not entertaining. This is not challenging. I can not recommend anyone play Mesmer as a roamer in WvW. Not Core, not Chronomancer, not Mirage. Because everyone who is not new or mostly a PvE player will defeat you. Maybe I am just bad. But why am I so much better when I play other professions, even ones I haven't spent much time on?

Hybrid mirage/chrono is what works the best at say 70/30 power/condi ratio. The basic mistake of many mesmers is to focus on condi damage which these days can be relatively speaking easily dealt with, also the easiest mesmers to deal with are the

staff campers

which makes beating them a trivial matter because that's a less aggressive playstyle and makes it easier to avoid shatters when you see them coming from a mile away

Honestly, when roaming the more power damage you do..the better the results on any class...except condi DH, core condi necro and condi herald

I am not mesmer main, I just meet some good ones from time to time. Not a faceroll roaming class and neither a trash one, really ....you can make work anything in WvW with dedication ...as long as you remind yourself that regardless of your skill level, you will lose some...you'll be fine

I don't think @"Yoci.2481" was born yesterday on a Mesmer, and neither were most of the people here, your little montage and build are not as strong an argument as you think because it completely misses the point. The problem is not the build or how Yoci plays it or whatever. Yes, you can "make it work". But making it work 99% of the time means everyone else can just mow you over without even trying and you get to pick up the trash scraps of players who literally have no idea how to play. If you come across anyone half decent, you have no means to attack them or defend yourself because mesmers are just that nerfed. Yes i can break my fingers to kill a noob in WvW, but a decent player will press 3 buttons and i just won't have anything against that. Sligh exageration, but the point is made. And the point is that Mesmer, compared to other professions, just isn't at their level currently, no matter how good you play it.

If I may....given my experience with ele, the following video may explain why changes will elude mesmer for the foreseeable future:

I remember the era of tempest first and weaver later from RAID, an ele was on the nerf chop list basically every other patch for a good year (before starting with PvP/WvW nerfs); Anet tends to nerf meta professions non stop for months sometimes or years when unlucky.

Not saying is a good reason or even if it's the real one,just making an observation based on personal experience ( air tempest and general staff DPS dps was nerfed due to RAID, to this day both remain nerfed )

Can you TLDW this a bit? I'm not watching a 2 hour long video.

Is your point that they nerfed the classes because of Raids? If so, you do know that WvW and PvE use different skills and traits. I mean, same traits, different values on them. If they nerf something for raids in PvE that doesn't have to affect WvW and vice versa. Mirage still has 2 dodges in PvE.

You're also saying mesmer won't be changed for the forseeable future. I think we all know that, but can you elaborate? Yeah, i know you posted a video but i'm sure you can condense it down in a few sentences.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Tseison.4659 said:14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable. (minimal)

5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage. (minimal)

5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

And yet some ‘Mesmers’ don’t see the problem that is a profession pigeon holed into this mechanic that barely delivers lol. Again, EoD needs to revamp shatters and clones completely and give us more personal damage/defence and less reliance on whatever illusions/clones/shatters are failing to be... “damage.”

I've always thought, if they just make clones timed and invulnerable, plus, not reliant on a target, that would practically solve most problems. Shatters will become reliable source of damage and don't even have to be buffed - then it just becomes a reliable mechanic on par with other professions. One of the reasons mesmer is so bad right now is because a lot of mechanics rely on shatters/clones which are the only profession mechanic that's unreliable, bugged and can fail. I never had a Revenant profession mechanic fail on me when i press F1 or F2, nor Warrior nor Elementalist. Could you imagine if you coudln't change attunements on an ele, that they sometimes work and sometimes don't? Or couldn't switch legends? No other profession has to deal with that. Yes there's also other things to fix after that but this should be first.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I can say as someone who fights mesmers, the better mesmers know when to stay at range and when to use blink/jaunt to create gaps. It is also really important to minimize the boons on your bar that clones don't also receive, it is part of what makes it difficult to find the real mesmer. Know the safe ranges to stand in relation to an opponent. I typically have trouble fighting mesmers on my warrior, except when I run Berserker. Arc Divider is quite adept at clearing the screen of phantoms and clones. and if the mesmer was within 450 range of me they typically go down with the follow up strike. That is really just an example of knowing safe ranges to engage an opponent from. So cheer up, work on your spacing, work on hiding amongst the clones, and learn which classes it is safe to stay close to and which to stay 1200 away from or LoS.

[Hackuuna.4085]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:It is also really important to minimize the boons on your bar that clones don't also receive, it is part of what makes it difficult to find the real mesmer.

Due to WvW area buffs and monument buffs that's often impossible. In addition, not having food and utility running is deliberately fighting at a disadvantage.

[Senqu.8054]

Is someone suggesting to not play with boons because trash players can’t recognize the real Mesmer?? I can’t express how I feel about this, let me fast go and vomit. I feel sick.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Senqu.8054 said:Is someone suggesting to not play with boons because trash players can’t recognize the real Mesmer?? I can’t express how I feel about this, let me fast go and vomit. I feel sick.

luckily anet has us mesmers covered, and we dont get to have boons.this will show those pesky necormancers, cant corrupt our boons when we have none kekW

[manu.7539]

Whatever the class, some are good, some are bad. Lets say some class dont need to be mastered to have fun with but mesmers are a bit like eles, if u dont master it then u'll feel like its not viable. Its not like rangers or revs coming in wvw with pve builds/gear and insta kill anyone coming on their way.

I got to say fighting with mes is still much easier than with ele! If I was able to solo T3 camps as fast than with my ele I would play mes! I barely played with it but once I understood I only had to act like a clone, stay away a little and let my opponent wasting his skills then to finish him I had a lot of fun!

[Senqu.8054]

It gets better every post xD Finally someone who knows what to do and can teach me... talks in the WvW thread that it matters to win and then tells people to play like a clone. There is no better way to ruin your „reputation“ lmao.

P.S. by measuring it how fast the class can clear t3 camps. what?

[manu.7539]

@Senqu.8054 said:It gets better every post xD Finally someone who knows what to do and can teach me... talks in the WvW thread that it matters to win and then tells people to play like a clone. There is no better way to ruin your „reputation“ lmao.

P.S. by measuring it how fast the class can clear t3 camps. what?

Maybe u'll understand better if u read :> @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I can say as someone who fights mesmers, the better mesmers know when to stay at range and when to use blink/jaunt to create gaps. It is also really important to minimize the boons on your bar that clones don't also receive, it is part of what makes it difficult to find the real mesmer. Know the safe ranges to stand in relation to an opponent. I typically have trouble fighting mesmers on my warrior, except when I run Berserker. Arc Divider is quite adept at clearing the screen of phantoms and clones. and if the mesmer was within 450 range of me they typically go down with the follow up strike. That is really just an example of knowing safe ranges to engage an opponent from. So cheer up, work on your spacing, work on hiding amongst the clones, and learn which classes it is safe to stay close to and which to stay 1200 away from or LoS.

that is basicly the technique I use to fight and even a noob mesmer like me not knowing his skills can do good with it. Be stubborn and arrogant as u want then I'll ruin ur fun like the 2 mesmers I 1vs2 this morning :p

[manu.7539]

Guess mesmers have been so OP for so long that they just cant accept to be killable these days. There is still some good mesmers out there, those who knows what to do with their class are still OP. Its not as easy anymore because it had to.

[Veprovina.4876]

This thread is getting more hilarious by the post lol! :sweat_smile:The level of "git gud" and dodging (the thing that Mirage lost) around the core issue is amazing!

[Junkpile.7439]

I always wonder why some mesmers make these clones and just leave them standing there. I don't have any idea what they try to do. I just select right target and one hit him. If that fails i flee and try again after while.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@manu.7539 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:It gets better every post xD Finally someone who knows what to do and can teach me... talks in the WvW thread that it matters to win and then tells people to play like a clone. There is no better way to ruin your „reputation“ lmao.

P.S. by measuring it how fast the class can clear t3 camps. what?

Maybe u'll understand better if u read :> @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I can say as someone who fights mesmers, the better mesmers know when to stay at range and when to use blink/jaunt to create gaps. It is also really important to minimize the boons on your bar that clones don't also receive, it is part of what makes it difficult to find the real mesmer. Know the safe ranges to stand in relation to an opponent. I typically have trouble fighting mesmers on my warrior, except when I run Berserker. Arc Divider is quite adept at clearing the screen of phantoms and clones. and if the mesmer was within 450 range of me they typically go down with the follow up strike. That is really just an example of knowing safe ranges to engage an opponent from. So cheer up, work on your spacing, work on hiding amongst the clones, and learn which classes it is safe to stay close to and which to stay 1200 away from or LoS.

that is basicly the technique I use to fight and even a noob mesmer like me not knowing his skills can do good with it. Be stubborn and arrogant as u want then I'll ruin ur fun like the 2 mesmers I 1vs2 this morning :p

I mean, I was being earnest there. The best Mesmers know when to play keep away. That also means to know when to use Distortion or Mirage evade. A large part of Mesmer defense IS confusing your foe by surrounding them with clones and making it more difficult to pick the real mesmer out which means less direct hits you'll end up taking.

That goes out the window if your opponent can carpet bomb the area with AoE, hence my comment on knowing 'safe' ranges. If you are a mesmer don't stand within 450 of a greatsword warrior with a berserker icon for instance. That's just asking to be hit by back to back Arc Dividers, but if you can anticipate it, then you can use it to your advantage, and some mesmer's I've fought do that but most don't.

Typically in WvW on Berserker I just headbutt a clone and double Arc Divider the area. 7/10 times there is a downed mesmer after that unless they were smart and camped staff or GS from 1200 away under stealth. I'm not bragging or boasting there, if I play Core or Spellbreaker I'm a bag in that match up unless I can keep pressure on them with Volley. Its just a great example of how certain specs can give someone the tools to hard counter other specs in CERTAIN situations. It doesn't make one spec OP and the other UP, it just means one player got out maneuvered and ended up in a situation where the other player is setup in the exact situation they excel at.

[Firebeard.1746]

Chrono is actually a decent roamer, but you have to time CS right. Mirage is pretty garbage imo. I only got beat by like 1 once in a 1v1. Core mesmer has a 1-shot burst combo, though ii'm not dextrous enough to pull it off, but someone did on me once.

[Metzie.3012]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"lare.5129"you have been summoned

LMAO! You mean the ... or talking about the "everything is fine, everything works as intended guy"? =)

Genie, get out of your bottle - right now! :p

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again ele mains coming to this forum complaining about their own problems, mesmer main arent asking to be OP we are asking for more viable builds, usable traits, and nerfs with compensation elsewhere something other classes don't really understand. No one here is asking for condi mirage to be at its peak, but when nearly all your build revolves around 2 trainline and the SAME exact traits on those trait lines there is an issue.

[lare.5129]

@Metzie.3012 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"lare.5129"you have been summoned

LMAO! You mean the ... or talking about the "everything is fine, everything works as intended guy"? =)My opinion if "power Mesmer flusstrating" on wvw for you and you not like that- use another class and build. This is only yours problem.Don't think that any class with any build should be perfect for everyone, so it is solved.

[Senqu.8054]

Man this is ridiculous.

From „you need to behave more like a clone“ over „play with less boons so the enemy can’t identify you“ and „it is important to kite as a ranged dps class“ to „berserker is hard counter to Mesmer“

Thank you guys all for your clever advices, they just drained the last drop of hope I had in this community.

„Core mesmer has a 1-shot burst combo, though ii'm not dextrous enough to pull it off,“

WHAT ARE THOSE FOR ADVICES??? Are the last randoms left in this game people who never played mmos before or what’s going on here?

[Senqu.8054]

I don’t know how to think about this.

Guild wars 1 was a game with soo many different game modes in PvP. So many different goals or things to do. And it was always skill needed to pull things and comps off. You could play thousand of different builds and all have been efficient in a way. You could play class comps like iWay with 5 warrior/rangers, you could play balanced spike, you could play FoC spike with 5 necros, Ranger spike, dervish way, assa way, bunny thumper rangers, e-sourge spike with Mesmers. And all the time you felt superior if you knew what to do because you just outplayed the enemy by using the right skills in the right moment. When you swaped the weaponset to energy inscription or vampire, when you canceled attacks to confuse the enemy rupter. Or you played Ranger to get the class specific attributboni and used necroskills because they only consumed 5 mana, you played assa/ranger with a bow because assas could crit... the possibility’s have been endless.

And what do we have now? 1 basic game mode. One never played game mode and basically a bad version of luxon vs kurzic. Soo many builds, you could count them on one hand and a community that just discovered what kiting is without knowing the term. It feels like a lot of these players which are left have never played an other mmo before and gw2 is their first experience with this genre ever Oo

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Senqu.8054 said:Man this is ridiculous.

From „you need to behave more like a clone“ over „play with less boons so the enemy can’t identify you“ and „it is important to kite as a ranged dps class“ to „berserker is hard counter to Mesmer“I mean if you don't want to play to the strengths of the class then you do you.

Knowing when to kite out of certain ranges is just smart gameplay for anyone, or do you just face tank everything at 120 range like a +1head?

I never implied Berserker as a whole hard countered Mesmer, I was pretty clear that I have trouble with Mesmers on Core or Spellbreaker, but back to back Arc Dividers courtesy of Berserker puts anyone within 450 of a Berserker in a rough spot. Mesmer Isn't sitting there with barrier or protection to protect it's HP pool like Necro or Ele. If a Mesmer takes those double Arc Dividers, they're going to be easy pickings.

The only ridiculous thing in this thread is people acting shocked at basic level gameplay advice.

[Yoci.2481]

Lan, Manu etc., the problem with your suggestions is that they don't address the imbalances at a higher level of play. They also seem to focus more on condi builds (power builds don't have clones to "hide" in between because they instantly shatter them), but the main point is that your "advice" only work against bad players. The active Mesmer PvP/WvW community that is left is pretty small and generally pretty good that those game modes, and doesn't need the kind of advice that might be helpful to a new player.

Everyone can kill inexperienced opponents, that's not the problem. The problem arises when good players meet other good players. At that point Mesmer loses by default and can only win with some luck or the opponent making mistakes. When I say good players I mean the kind of people who have stow weapon bound to an easily accessible key, who know how to work the camera and who know all the skills, animations and cool downs of pretty much every possible build they might encounter. They don't get fooled by a clone for more than a millisecond.

So as thankful as I am for your attempts at contributing to a solution I would appreciate it if you would consider these items in the future.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Man this is ridiculous.

From „you need to behave more like a clone“ over „play with less boons so the enemy can’t identify you“ and „it is important to kite as a ranged dps class“ to „berserker is hard counter to Mesmer“I mean if you don't want to play to the strengths of the class then you do you.

Knowing when to kite out of certain ranges is just smart gameplay for anyone, or do you just face tank everything at 120 range like a +1head?

I never implied Berserker as a whole hard countered Mesmer, I was pretty clear that I have trouble with Mesmers on Core or Spellbreaker, but back to back Arc Dividers courtesy of Berserker puts anyone within 450 of a Berserker in a rough spot. Mesmer Isn't sitting there with barrier or protection to protect it's HP pool like Necro or Ele. If a Mesmer takes those double Arc Dividers, they're going to be easy pickings.

The only ridiculous thing in this thread is people acting shocked at basic level gameplay advice.

I think @Senqu.8054 is mad because you and some others are being captain obvious here and giving advice that everyone here already knows while completely missing the point of the thread and what Senqu is trying to say. The issue was never the strategy. But @Yoci.2481 already pointed that out as well.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Yoci.2481" said:Lan, Manu etc., the problem with your suggestions is that they don't address the imbalances at a higher level of play. They also seem to focus more on condi builds (power builds don't have clones to "hide" in between because they instantly shatter them), but the main point is that your "advice" only work against bad players. The active Mesmer PvP/WvW community that is left is pretty small and generally pretty good that those game modes, and doesn't need the kind of advice that might be helpful to a new player.See, now this is more constructive. Thank you.

As for 'Bad' players, that accounts for the majority of WvW players sadly and us forum lurkers tend to forget that.

Everyone can kill inexperienced opponents, that's not the problem. The problem arises when good players meet other good players. At that point Mesmer loses by default and can only win with some luck or the opponent making mistakes. When I say good players I mean the kind of people who have stow weapon bound to an easily accessible key, who know how to work the camera and who know all the skills, animations and cool downs of pretty much every possible build they might encounter. They don't get fooled by a clone for more than a millisecond.

Then the advice is to do the same. Learn every class, every skill animation, every CD, but even then it boils down to knowing when press an offense, and knowing when to kite because of that knowledge. Are there tips and tricks for any given matchup, of course.

So as thankful as I am for your attempts at contributing to a solution I would appreciate it if you would consider these items in the future.Again, this is more constructive and others should learn from your example. I thank you as well.

The advice I gave was mostly from my own experience fighting Mesmers as a Berserker, Burn DH, and Reaper. The good ones know when to stay away and when to pressure, and yes a lot of that does have to do with what you mentioned above, those players probably have a lot of game knowledge.

I generally kill Mesmers I encounter on Berserker, but there is this one Charr Mirage on Maguuma that even on Berserker gives me a hard time. That player goes full yolo at melee range and couldn't give 2 dolyak craps if I use Arc Divider. He never stops spawning clones, and as soon as he shatters them there are 2-3 more up almost immediately, and he frequently swaps places with the clones and uses the Mirage skills that break targeting. Our fights don't last long, but its roughly 50/50 with that player. So perhaps that is some more helpful advice for you?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Veprovina.4876 said:I think @Senqu.8054 is mad because you and some others are being captain obvious here and giving advice that everyone here already knows while completely missing the point of the thread and what Senqu is trying to say. The issue was never the strategy. But @Yoci.2481 already pointed that out as well.

Well, they need to remember that not everyone who comes to the forums knows everything, and what may seem obvious to most of us isn't always obvious to others who come asking for help. And as I mentioned to Yoci, it more or less sums up the difference between the good Mesmers I fight and the bad ones.