mirage .

[Shao.7236]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Mirage needs both its dodge rolls back though.

Find a different way to balance it. It doesn't enough front loaded defenses to survive any serious offense at this point.

It isn't just about dodge rolls, there's Jaunt, Blink, Stealth, target breaking, visual clutter, rng dazes, F4.

which rng dazes?

Clones pathing inconsistency can sometimes lead to extended durations of dazes or even interrupts that may ruin an entire fight for someone.

If it was me, I wouldn't have daze shatters chase anyone to avoid these ridiculous lucky events. Only shatter on the spot and be done with it.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

Not saying it’s dumpster tier, but strong af? No way.

yes way, warrior is really kitten strong one of the best side-noders rn

Well it can’t hold node, not much node presence, has to kite off point to sustain, and struggles to escape getting plussed. Pretty sure there are superior options.

its amazing how everything you just said is wrong

and yet you don't even attempt to make a case for why you think so. There are sidenoders with superior range and mobility to warrior, and warrior itself lacks any skills that cover node.

shield block, full counter, gs3, bulls, endure pain, dash, various dagger leaps make for a REALLY kitten GOOD kite.name a class that has better mobility for escape then warrior for example? or deals better with +1, cuz not a single one comes to my mind.as for aoe spam on node, warriors wins node differently, he expands your cds, and ways to remove stuns, then stunlocks you and 100%-0% kills you, you dont need pulsing aoe for this.

Warrior is powerful in the right hands. That cannot be disproven. Warrior played well can counter every other build once studied. But, it can only do 1 thing at a time. You either have a Strength Spellbreaker sidenoder meant to deal with power builds, or you need to invest more to counter conditions, which usually rips the warrior off plenty of attack potency.

The build you mentioned is that: GS & Dagger/Shield with fighter rune and Demolisher amulet, Strength/DIscipline/Spellbreaker, Mending, Bull's Charge, Endure Pain, SHake it Off, Rampage.

Pretty balanced option. But while contesting a node, warriors have no means of engaging outside the node. They need to make a decision. Fail to decap to survive, or contest and burn through their defenses to fight on their own node. Ranged classes can pressure warrior very well and Holosmith can easily counter Spellbreaker. Very easily on a 1v1. The blind makes sure bursts miss and so does FC. Warrior using shake it off to land said bursts will probably hit barrier (same for fire weavers) the cleansing has a limit. Endure pain wont protect you once out of cleanses. Condi PPistol thief can down you unless you outplay them. The Mirage trend going around has you standing there as loot for them. The amount of dazes makes it impossible to fight unless you bring a utility with stability. And then you obviously need to sacrafice something for that. WHich will make you vulnerable to other things in the match, since you are facing 5 opponents with possibly radically different playstyles.

If you land a chain though, you can easily kill. I have played the build smart and I can perfectly down someone with no retaliation. Issue is, the risk is huge. Weaver and Holo will bring better results. Better sustained damage, in contrast to warriors' bursty damage. Which can be good, but needs a window of opportunity.

As for classes that can escape warrior: Ranger, Thief, Mesmer, Revenant (Shiro), Guardian (offensive types obviously), Holosmith (perma superspeed uptime, compared to a Bull's charge a clunky GS rush on warr), Warriors with more mobility skills.

We can catch up to Necros, and Eles (if they have burned their CDs).

As for your final sentence, warrior sustain can tank a lot, but warriors also suffer from CDs. Against enemies with sustained damage, the window of opportunity may not open at all and they may end up burning your CDs, where you need to kite away as per the warrior's playstyle.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak/ dodging while stunned

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

[Shao.7236]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Spitballing so might sound insane. Solutions I think might work:

• Make dodging while stunned a part of Elusive Mind (you cannot dodge at all while stunned unless you take Elusive Mind). Return second dodge bar to Mirage baseline. Return "Dodging breaks stuns" to EM trait.
• Reduce endurance by 50% only when taking Infinite Horizon.
• Have dodging while under hard crowd control (Stun, Knockdown, Knockback, Float, Launch) apply exhaustion baseline.

The only thing that ticks me off about fighting mirages is that, on top of target drops and instant casts (which are fine) they can also remove the threat of damage when stunlocked in any way. There's other ways to ensure that poor play eventually downs them, I guess?

I say this tentatively because there are still mirages out there that can wipe you off the map. Both condi and power. It's not impossible or even improbable.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The issue with mirage is that the spec is designed around being able to attack while defending at the same time, which on a mechanical level is fundamentally gamebreaking. This means every time mirage has access to enough defenses or sustain, it gains the ability to win fights simply by playing passively / rotating defenses / kiting around all while clones play the game for them. This is an extremely easy strategy to execute, and has very limited counterplay to it. The result is a spec that is not only broken, but is neither fun to play as nor is it fun to play against.

The smart move on Anets part would be to just design Mesmers upcoming EoD spec to be less reliant on invuln clonespam and more interactive in PvP. Then leave Mirage in a state of being intentionally undertuned. That may seem harsh, but the reality is there are certain things that just shouldn't exist in competitive play. If you look at games designed for PvP like League, Smite, Overwatch, etc, you will notice that none of them have a character designed around the idea of spamming invulnerability while pooping out adds that fight for them. The reason for this is quite simple: It's a bad design.

TL;DR the spec is bad for the game and deserves to be bad.

[Quadox.7834]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

That would be a big nerf

[Quadox.7834]

It's fine as it is, the only scenario they need to give back 2 dodges is IF they remove energy sigil (something I've advocated for). Aside from that, focus on core mes, chrono, and trait reworks in general. In fact, Mirage has fewer "dead traits" than chrono and core mes, I would say. Dune cloak does need to be looked at though. Up it to 2 boonstrips or something. And fix so it can trigger in the air (otherwise sword leap cancels it which is stupid).

[mistsim.2748]

There is a mirage build that can instantly blow people up from stealth. If you're on zerker and not watching for him, you will get bombed, daze-locked, and popped instantly.

I think a well played mirage is viable, but maybe not ideal in some situations. If you catch the mirage outside of his opener, he will go down quick. But if you don't watch for him, you will get punished.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

[Vancho.8750]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps backI heard some suggestions to reduce its cost back but also the range, if only they had a weapon that did already that maybe even give it a dodge, too bad it doesn't exist and it definitely doesn't do 6k to 9 k damage at all.

[Shao.7236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

No, one has a 10 seconds cooldown apart of any mechanics outside weakness while the other depends on clone numbers and doesn't take part into the mechanic of Mirage.

[otto.5684]

Even bots think mirage is underpowered.

[Bast.7253]

Ultimately, I think the biggest issue is just the sheer amount of aoe and ground clutter in the game that's increased with PoF. It makes it really difficult to play something glassy in melee range like thief or mesmer, and these are typically the two classes I see people raging at in matches saying they're "useless." Yeah, because you have to be extremely careful about the fights that you choose or you'll get blown up - especially compared to the majority of other classes with multiple avenues of sustain in addition to two dodges. The only exception would be ele - but that's where barrier and evade heavy weapon skills helps alleviate the issue for them.

I mean, sure, mesmer innately has "distortion" but to maximize from it you need active clones that can easily be cleaved into oblivion. You have distortion on sword two - if you're running sword. With a fairly long cooldown. You have axe 3 for an evade. You have scepter 2 for block if you're using it - and torch for stealth and blind.

But at the end of the day, these are all really mostly extremely short windows - extremely obvious when used - and really only benefit you the most when you're fighting WITH a team in a team fight and not getting focused while avoiding ground clutter or sidenoding someone in which you're still having to be extremely careful about where you step and what the range is between you and whatever you're fighting.

I just wonder what the game would feel like if there wasn't so much aoe built into everything or if everything didn't automatically hit additional targets in pvp. Maybe it wouldn't feel that different, maybe it's necessary. Just feel like that's one area where the game is really designed in a way that makes it challenging to not resort to bandaid fixes to improve weaknesses of certain professions.

[Kodama.6453]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

[Quadox.7834]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

That would be a buff

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

No, one has a 10 seconds cooldown apart of any mechanics outside weakness while the other depends on clone numbers and doesn't take part into the mechanic of Mirage.

its not a separate 10s cooldown ticking in the background .It would make mirage the " dodge spec " into, go hard into someone for 10s and flop dead afterwards.

[Zawn.9647]

I think that the issue with Mirage right now is that they nerfed all dodge traits and then removed a dodge. Now all the traits are weak due to having only 1 dodge.They either should nerf the traits a bit more and give back the 2nd dodge or buff the traits a tiny bit and keep the single dodge.

[Vancho.8750]

@"Quadox.7834" "Do you think mirage and maybe chrono need total rework at this point?Do they fulfill a proper niche or they are too spread all over the place?Do you think getting 2 dodges but ambushes cost 1 bar and maybe return some endurance if they hit, would it be a good idea or it will make it too clunky to play?

[Kondor.2904]

Can mirage stay left out of the forum council, like it used to be the past year ?

Every time it's brought up, it gets 2head'ed into the ground with impeccable forum level balance patches that lack any remote vision on what the end goal should be. Just fix bugs, ty.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Give Mirage 2 dodge rolls back.Nerf ambush damage from clones.

To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

[Halikus.1406]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

I've been saying this for long a time too.

IH's problem is that clones can also use ambush skills, and those skills do a LOT of dmg imagine multiplied by 3.To Balance IH my suggestions were to either:

1. Remove ambush from clones entirely or
2. Nerf it to a small percentage of the dmg from the original.

But of course anet took the easiest route and simple removed an entire dodge from the spec lol...

[Kodama.6453]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

[Quadox.7834]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.