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Stuns seem a little much here lately


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@Faolain.2374 said:

@"kash.9213" said:

I get what you're saying, but something like Scorpion wire isn't new and likely not there just because of that composition. I've been using Scorpion Wire and have packed a lot of Control for years because treating everyone like they have a break bar to keep their mitigation in check has always been more manageable than being a glass cannon or a bunker. Something that is a quick Projectile for Fields and a possible Interrupt for Leech just makes sense to have most of the time, even if it's not a big hitter it's a reasonable cooldown and ammo fed, and likely that other stuff you mentioned is taken similarly. If you use something and people see it work in any scale fight, you'll see it used around a lot for awhile. Pull someone off a wall to their death after they've plugged a few of yours and someone else will want to do that to.

I think you'll feel a lot of your list in large zerg fights also.

I mean I understand some of these skills like Scorpion Wire/Spectral Gasp being used by roamers, but i feel you're missing my point.
Since these are not "proper" builds I listed, I doubt anyone is actually running these builds in zergs
because as others have mentioned many times, zergs basically have perma stability. People are using these builds specifically to troll and gank. Sure there are variants of chrono, spb and necro being used in that scale but none are full cc builds, surely they are just ineffective builds vs. so many firebrands? I'm talking about builds being made specifically to abuse how stupid cc is in the lower scales, while also outnumbering. Even in a 2vs1, you can have someone running a full cc build who will completely stun lock you, while the other person autos and they will eventually kill you.

Personally I think CC skills should only be utility skills and removed from all weapon skills. This way only builds specifically made to cc can do so. Its stupid that support firebrand, support tempest or anything can add to the cc lock with zero investment into that playstyle other than having a cc skill(s) on a weapon which wasn't even chosen for that purpose. Although it doesn't really solve the overall cc issue in smaller scales, I think it'd bring a massive change in the amount of cc, since people would specifically have to invest into that playstyle.

I pack a lot of control every day for zerg fights. The only way to break up anything of any size is to dismantle it. We can call it an abuse of a build, but everyone is abusing it, not just roamers. Hit up any siege or large open back and forth and take notice of what's killing proper builds on walls or bunkered up and what's being used as a clutch play and at what part of the other sides meta comp when that side gets pushed. Maybe some people are building specifically for some zergs meta still but they have to get babysat. I'm not too worried about it really, cc is a lot more fun then standing in a ball of light until another ball of light runs over you, but they could maybe re-add the old short duration cc immunity or something, unless I'm thinking of a different game.

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@kash.9213 said:

I pack a lot of control every day for zerg fights. The only way to break up anything of any size is to dismantle it. We can call it an abuse of a build, but everyone is abusing it, not just roamers. Hit up any siege or large open back and forth and take notice of what's killing proper builds on walls or bunkered up and what's being used as a clutch play and at what part of the other sides meta comp when that side gets pushed. Maybe some people are building specifically for some zergs meta still but they have to get babysat. I'm not too worried about it really, cc is a lot more fun then standing in a ball of light until another ball of light runs over you, but they could maybe re-add the old short duration cc immunity or something, unless I'm thinking of a different game.

One person using Scorpion wire is hardly dismantling a zerg. It sounds like more suicide risk for you than effective for your zerg. Last I checked thief wasn’t meta in zergs anyway?

Frankly you’re just pulling single targets into your zerg to gank, which is basically the issue in smallscale, but not an issue or even effective in bigger scales? 10 people all dedicated to it, in a scale which naturally has less counters for it makes it really cancer. You say everyone is using it, but is there an actual build in the zerg meta specifically the stun lock? Most likely not since firebrand exists, and for a pretty good reason. Is there a single solo roaming build which specifically tries to stun lock? most likely not since it’d lack damage.The play style of full cc builds is specifically to gank groups which aren’t big enough to have enough stab to withstand it, (which I guess links back to stab nerfs someone mentioned above) which then forces groups to run with more firebrands just so they can play the game. For how easy this playstyle is, it’s quite disgusting how effective it can be, especially when already outnumbering.

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@Faolain.2374 said:

@kash.9213 said:

I pack a lot of control every day for zerg fights. The only way to break up anything of any size is to dismantle it. We can call it an abuse of a build, but everyone is abusing it, not just roamers. Hit up any siege or large open back and forth and take notice of what's killing proper builds on walls or bunkered up and what's being used as a clutch play and at what part of the other sides meta comp when that side gets pushed. Maybe some people are building specifically for some zergs meta still but they have to get babysat. I'm not too worried about it really, cc is a lot more fun then standing in a ball of light until another ball of light runs over you, but they could maybe re-add the old short duration cc immunity or something, unless I'm thinking of a different game.

One person using Scorpion wire is hardly dismantling a zerg. It sounds like more suicide risk for you than effective for your zerg. Last I checked thief wasn’t meta in zergs anyway?

Frankly you’re just pulling single targets into your zerg to gank, which is basically the issue in smallscale, but not an issue or even effective in bigger scales? 10 people all dedicated to it, in a scale which naturally has less counters for it makes it really cancer. You say everyone is using it, but is there an actual build in the zerg meta specifically the stun lock? Most likely not since firebrand exists, and for a pretty good reason. Is there a single solo roaming build which specifically tries to stun lock? most likely not since it’d lack damage.The play style of full cc builds is specifically to gank groups which aren’t big enough to have enough stab to withstand it, (which I guess links back to stab nerfs someone mentioned above) which then forces groups to run with more firebrands just so they can play the game. For how easy this playstyle is, it’s quite disgusting how effective it can be, especially when already outnumbering.

Okay, keep doing what you're doing. Good luck.

I used an example, why would you think I plan on taking on a zerg by myself with a Scorpion Wire? Woosh. Take out one of those Firebrand or two and watch the momentum of the fight change or fall a part quickly. You can bake in secondary mods into all of your control and make up that damage, or at least focus it. Why you're not building for your game mode is your business but they don't have any more skill and utility slots than you and they have roughly the same amount of people as you. Or do you mean to say that zerg builds are the only proper builds and way to play?

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@kash.9213 said:

Okay, keep doing what you're doing. Good luck.

I used an example, why would you think I plan on taking on a zerg by myself with a Scorpion Wire? Woosh. Take out one of those Firebrand or two and watch the momentum of the fight change or fall a part quickly. You can bake in secondary mods into all of your control and make up that damage, or at least focus it. Why you're not building for your game mode is your business but they don't have any more skill and utility slots than you and they have roughly the same amount of people as you. Or do you mean to say that zerg builds are the only proper builds and way to play?

Honestly at this point I can’t tell if you’re just trolling. You literally replied to my first post saying you use scorpion wire, then further go on to talk about what you do in zergs, so I assume you do indeed play this scorpion wire thief build in zergs, which when the zerg meta is considered, no scorpion wire thief is not a proper build there. I could argue and say you are not building for the game mode either, since you are basically picking the scraps in groups of people actually building for the game mode, with stuff like 1). Thief in a zerg and 2). scorpion wire in a situation where there’s permanent stability and permanent reflects?

Since I have continuously mentioned in literally all my posts in this thread, I highlight how cc is an issue in smaller scales and not bigger scales....for example you don’t see thieves using scorpion wire in zergs (apart from in cases of exaggerated and deluded sense of effectiveness) yet when it’s a big group vs. A much smaller group, multiple thieves changing to that one skill becomes extremely problematic, let alone when someone decides to full cc on something like warrior/scrapper/chrono/reaper/dh/weaver etc. Like I said in my original post, people changing to full cc builds specifically to stun lock entire groups, who they are already outnumbering by quite a lot, is not healthy gameplay.

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@Faolain.2374 said:

Okay, keep doing what you're doing. Good luck.

I used an example, why would you think I plan on taking on a zerg by myself with a Scorpion Wire? Woosh. Take out one of those Firebrand or two and watch the momentum of the fight change or fall a part quickly. You can bake in secondary mods into all of your control and make up that damage, or at least focus it. Why you're not building for your game mode is your business but they don't have any more skill and utility slots than you and they have roughly the same amount of people as you. Or do you mean to say that zerg builds are the only proper builds and way to play?

Honestly at this point I can’t tell if you’re just trolling. You literally replied to my first post saying you use scorpion wire, then further go on to talk about what you do in zergs, so I assume you do indeed play this scorpion wire thief build in zergs, which when the zerg meta is considered, no scorpion wire thief is not a proper build there
. I could argue and say you are not building for the game mode either, since you are basically picking the scraps in groups of people actually building for the game mode, with stuff like 1). Thief in a zerg and 2). scorpion wire in a situation where there’s permanent stability and permanent reflects?

Since I have continuously mentioned in literally all my posts in this thread, I highlight how cc is an issue in smaller scales and not bigger scales....for example you don’t see thieves using scorpion wire in zergs (apart from in cases of exaggerated and deluded sense of effectiveness) yet when it’s a big group vs. A much smaller group, multiple thieves changing to that one skill becomes extremely problematic, let alone when someone decides to full cc on something like warrior/scrapper/chrono/reaper/dh/weaver etc. Like I said in my original post, people changing to full cc builds specifically to stun lock entire groups, who they are already outnumbering by quite a lot, is not healthy gameplay.

Another woosh moment. I don't think you understand the idea of examples or nuance. I also don't think you're very observant if that's your take from WvW currently. Also, take even some of that cc from those roamers, even when they're grouped, and while you might be alright in your spawn to zerg trail, the game actually would get unhealthy at that point and zergs would have no counter at all, despite you thinking cc's are only a thing with roamers.

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I've definitely run across a lot of stuns and immob during zerg fights. Over half the time its not necessarily on purpose from the larger group its all the darn rangers blotting out the sky with their blowflex machines. Worse when fighting certain groups of course. Not sure I'd say its a huge issue but I imagine that depends on the tier you are in.

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@knightofmab.2593 lmfao no. tiers in Wvw have zero meaning about anything than player numbers and willingness to waste their time on ppt.

brainless cc-chaining for days is more a basic issue... and no @"God.2708" usually u do not get cc-locked now by those skills that earlier killed u - those ones are mainly spread out all over the field or used for their passive abilities only (drop the hammer, facet of chaos), bc most of the heavy largescale cc's have slow animations. ppl play for sure extra more cc-skills thanks to the smaller offensive output and also nerfed defensive abilities of everything. as long as you have 25% more players than the others, that is a hard to beat "strategy"

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A question I have pondered is why Fear duration is capped at 2 and 4 sec but immobilize seems to be much higher, with the stacking ability more easily obtained? One reason offered was while immob u can still use skills so u have defense/offense, but then that is negated by the attacker going out of range and blasting you .Also if you manage to break immob it is merely applied right back. Add stealth into it and its extremely hard to counter and mostly a losing battle.

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@DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:Also if you manage to break immob it is merely applied right back.No it's not, unless we are talking about a specific ranger skill or spamming the same thief skills over and over.

Immobilize actually have less max stacks than fear, but there's just not that much fear available whereas a ranger easily hit the immo cap. Most immobilize skills also are between 1.5 to 3s with just a few reaching 4s. But that's baseline of course, condi duration obvious increase it and an immobeast/druid probably max it.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:Also if you manage to break immob it is merely applied right back.No it's not, unless we are talking about a specific ranger skill or spamming the same thief skills over and over.

Immobilize actually have less max stacks than fear, but there's just not that much fear available whereas a ranger easily hit the immo cap. Most immobilize skills also are between 1.5 to 3s with just a few reaching 4s. But that's baseline of course, condi duration obvious increase it and an immobeast/druid probably max it.

Thank you for validating my assertion

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that is again another issue... the range entangle is really annoying.

but the main cc-spam isn't only that. the problem now is that we again move towards a "nerf" discussion... ton of stuff just needs buffed again. then u can klick more than six buttons on your classes again :P

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