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The Future of Ascalon


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Also consider that leaders are the ones who make choices not the people. The humans were pissed when Jenna agreed to stop fighting the charr but she still did it, and so that meant that nearly all humans fell in line. Malice, Crecia, Efram, and im assuming Mia(because it says she was one of the driving forces for the treaty of ebonhawke on the wiki) don't want any more war. If the human leaders and and Charr leaders say there is no war then there will be no war unless the humans or charr want to have another civil war about it first. Tensions will be high, and racism will still exist, but that doesn't mean the charr and human nations cant find a way to work to help each other to help themselves. Both factions have already helped each other with each others civil wars so i dont see why they wouldnt continue to go along with each other unless something insane happens to drive them apart again.

This would also open up NEW race conflicts. Right now I would say the Norn and the Charr tensions are at an all time high after ibs. We've never seen the norn go to war and I think the idea of norn vs charr could be really cool and help grow the norn culture a bit more past its semi nomad style. I'd also love seeing the dwarfs return to flesh and having the stone summit move into the southern shiverpeaks and humanity can get into a conflict with them, or even expand on ogres a bit more if they have conflicts with them to the east. Things like that.

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@Teratus.2859 said:Considering the importance of the claim i'd have to side with the players and the wiki tbh.He has no ancestral background provided either that would support his claim.. all players have to go on as you said is his own word.Ultimately this is a failing on the writing more than anything.

The thing is, you can say that for a lot of lore, particularly heritage. Especially for player viewpoint - what proof do players have that Jennah is descended from Doric? Only everyone's word for it. Or that Logan is descended from Gwen? Just everyone's word for it.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I feel you oversell the power of many smaller factions in fictional settings, and aren't really good at looking past the immediate to understand the full context behind narrative developments.A group who have camps in five out of six zones of a region (or is there a camp in Blazeridge Steppes too?), and is canonically such a thorn in the side that they don't get wiped out by a massive military powerhouse, goes to show that the Separatist is not really a "smaller faction". Finances alone won't cause that.

I think you're understating the level of threat the Separatists and Renegades actually were.

@videoboy.4162 said:@Konig Des Todes.2086 I should have been more specific. I just meant I thought they had all publicly joined Bangar when he split off, not necessarily when his faction officially became the Dominion alongside the Frost Legion, since

Bangar had been bankrolling them in secret before that.

 

There were some Renegades in his forces at the end of the prologue, bolstered by rally occupants. But it's never firmly established - or implied tbh - that the renegades on a whole joined the Dominion, or whom among them were.

We really just have those five or so NPCs that were guarding Gorrik being shown (or maybe just implied and I oversell their position) to be Renegade.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Considering the importance of the claim i'd have to side with the players and the wiki tbh.He has no ancestral background provided either that would support his claim.. all players have to go on as you said is his own word.Ultimately this is a failing on the writing more than anything.

The thing is, you can say that for a
lot
of lore, particularly heritage. Especially for player viewpoint - what proof do players have that Jennah is descended from Doric? Only everyone's word for it. Or that Logan is descended from Gwen? Just everyone's word for it.

Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.The fact that she's a Mesmer too could cause for doubt since how can you really know Jennah is who she says she is.. it's not impossible that she's an imposter using a glamor to disguise him/herself as Queen Jennah.. the real one could be dead or missing, pretty sure the ministry spread similar propaganda to her profession in the past as well.Doubtful scenario but not impossible.Something that Krytan royal locket would be able to answer at least.

Wade honestly gets nothing.. no family members disclosed nor any tie directly or distantly to any known royals from the Ascalon line.For his claim to mean anything this is something the writers will have to go back and flesh out one day although I don't see that happening unless he becomes central to an ongoing storyline.Perhaps after End of Dragons we can revisit the whole current events concept but really flesh it out into small mini stories that focus more on world building.Having Wade attempt to break the Foefire curse would be a good one to explore imo.

If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.That could also be an interesting story to explore as well a human civil war over the title of King of Ascalon.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.

Does she though?

We don't even know her father's name. She was too young to take power when her father died, and the Ministry ruled for a few years in her stead. She's supposedly the last heir, but Whispers agents suggest there is another. There was a curious time in which Jennah had no spotlight, and she has been constantly been replaced by perfect illusions by Anise ever since (granted, "only" when threats like Kellach or Scarlet are around, but how do we know really, if Lord Faren couldn't tell while standing right next to the illusion for over an hour?).

We have just her claim that she's her father's daughter. And the claim of those who believe her.

Wade has the same - his claim, and the claim of a few in Ebonhawke that believe him.

What makes Wade less believable than Jennah? The number of NPCs that follow the claim?

If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.Not really, since Wade would be that supposed heir's descendant. There was no other heir to the throne besides Adelbern and Barradin ever mentioned in GW1, so by your argument of "without mention, it isn't likely true", then if Wade's claim is true, he'd have to be descended from Adelbern or Barradin.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:A group who have camps in five out of six zones of a region (or is there a camp in Blazeridge Steppes too?), and is canonically such a thorn in the side that they don't get wiped out by a massive military powerhouse, goes to show that the Separatist is not really a "smaller faction". Finances alone won't cause that.

I think you're understating the level of threat the Separatists and Renegades actually were.This again ignores the context of the situation.

We never see any significant effort made by the Charr to stop the Separatists. Not being wiped out when your opponent isn't really trying isn't indicative of power, its indicative of not having power to the point that your enemy sees spending resources on fighting your rather pointless.

And you can see this by how much more the Charr do put effort into fighting everything else including

  • Branded
  • Ghosts
  • Flame Legion

The Separatists were literally the bottom of the barrel issue, even back in vanilla.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Jennah at least has a known heritage, her father being king before her and her line traced through King Baede etc although it's true that you could argue the legitimacy of her line tied to Doric without strong historical evidence to confirm it.

Does she though?

We don't even know her father's name. She was too young to take power when her father died, and the Ministry ruled for a few years in her stead. She's supposedly the last heir, but Whispers agents suggest there is another. There was a curious time in which Jennah had no spotlight, and she has been constantly been replaced by perfect illusions by Anise ever since (granted, "only" when threats like Kellach or Scarlet are around, but how do we know really, if Lord Faren couldn't tell while standing right next to the illusion for over an hour?).

We have just
her claim
that she's her father's daughter. And the claim of those who believe her.

Wade has the same - his claim, and the claim of a few in Ebonhawke that believe him.

What makes Wade less believable than Jennah? The number of NPCs that follow the claim?

Just the line, we don't know Jennah's fathers name but I would argue that this is a fault of the writers simply not giving him one.I highly doubt there was a time in Krytan history where they had a king and nobody knew his name, that would have been really stupid writing XDI'm not saying there isn't room for questions and doubts though only that Jennah's legitimacy has a lot more going for it than Wade's.Even if she's lying or is an imposter she's at least claiming to be a descendant of the last monarch.

If TeeracK is also correct about a descendant of Adelbern or Barradin possibly surviving and leaving heirs too then Wade's claim could be even weaker.Not really, since Wade would be that supposed heir's descendant. There was no other heir to the throne besides Adelbern and Barradin ever mentioned in GW1, so by your argument of "without mention, it isn't likely true", then if Wade's claim is true, he'd have to be descended from Adelbern or Barradin.

What makes Wade less believable is that he cannot be connected in any way to a legitimate royal line, only King Doric of which he claims he's a descendant of.If he were from Barradin or Adelbern's line and claimed to be a descendant of either man then that would be something more specific than just his word that he's of Doric's blood.Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and had known descendants you could better be linked to.And if these kings were as promiscuous in their time as some think they may have been then the list of candidates for the throne could in theory be huge.. who knows how many random civilians carry Doric's blood in that case, which would only make Wade's claim as the true heir even weaker.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:This again ignores the context of the situation.

We never see any significant effort made by the Charr to stop the Separatists. Not being wiped out when your opponent isn't really trying isn't indicative of power, its indicative of not having power to the point that your enemy sees spending resources on fighting your rather pointless.

And you can see this by how much more the Charr do put effort into fighting everything else including

  • Branded
  • Ghosts
  • Flame Legion

The Separatists were literally the bottom of the barrel issue, even back in vanilla.

There are events to take out each of the camps, though we can't tell how effective such are because of the whole persistently repeating and both fail + success nature of event chains. So the charr were trying. Sure they didn't put the full might of the legions behind the assaults, but as you say, they are also busy with a bunch of other things.

I would disagree that they were "bottom of the barrel issue". Skritt, harpies, and ogres were of less focus and quantity of events than Separatists. The Separatists even got a sideplot in one of the charr PS chapters. They weren't "the biggest threat out there", but they weren't "the smallest threat out there" either. They were middle-ground, and middle-ground threat to a massive militaristic nation is nothing to sneeze at.

The fact that they managed to survive 9 years, to the point where the big threats were all or mostly removed yet they weren't, shows to the size of their force and intensity of their tenacity.

But we've been down this route before, made our arguments, and couldn't convince the other. So continuing on past this is a bit fruitless.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Just the line, we don't know Jennah's fathers name but I would argue that this is a fault of the writers simply not giving him one.I highly doubt there was a time in Krytan history where they had a king and nobody knew his name, that would have been really stupid writing XDThat's what I'm getting at. Just because there's no additional dialogue on it, doesn't mean it is dubious in-universe, especially when there's no in-game implication of any dubiousness.

ArenaNet tends to write their lore literally one short paragraph at a time, which means we don't get detailed anthologies of a character's history. We, as players, only know Jennah is her father's daughter because a handful of NPCs tell us so; we, as players, only know Salma was a biological child of King Jadon because one NPC told us so. We, as players, only know that Wade is descended from Ascalonian royalty because a couple NPCs told us so (Wade and []()).

What makes Wade less believable is that he cannot be connected in any way to a legitimate royal line, only King Doric of which he claims he's a descendant of.If he were from Barradin or Adelbern's line and claimed to be a descendant of either man then that would be something more specific than just his word that he's of Doric's blood.Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and had known descendants you could better be linked to.There's also the fact that he's a Duke, a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

I also want to correct a misconception you have: Wade doesn't mention Doric. He says, to quote,

Wade: My name's Commander Samuelsson, and I am the Duke of Ebonhawke.PC: By what authority do you hold this city?Wade: My forefathers were the kings of Ascalon, and I'll be damned if I let those renegades destroy their last legacy!

So here's the thing:1) He states his lineage in answer to the question "what authority does he have", basically saying "I am a duke because I am of royal lineage", which goes a bit further than simply claiming descendancy from a king who died 1326 years ago.2) He says kings of Ascalon, meaning that his bloodline isn't an offshoot of Doric himself, but a royal descendant of Doric. Now, unlike Kryta, we have literally zero names of Ascalonian kings other than Adelbern (and, arguably, Doric), so ANet could slap in literally any name they wanted and... it wouldn't really tell us anything. But presumably, if Wade isn't descended from Barradin or Adelbern directly, then he's likely descended from Barradin's cousin or something, who would have been in line for the throne after Barradin had Adelbern didn't get crowned by popular demand.

And if these kings were as promiscuous in their time as some think they may have been then the list of candidates for the throne could in theory be huge.. who knows how many random civilians carry Doric's blood in that case, which would only make Wade's claim as the true heir even weaker.Even if Ascalonian kings were as promiscuous as individuals like Charlamange , the fact he holds a high ranking noble title (literally the highest shown title besides current ruling family) goes a long way to show his legitimacy. Your huge "list of candidates for the throne" don't typically have noble titles when they're descended from bastard children.

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

The archivist who gathers together every little scrap and treats it as though it's an objective truth would be a poor historian. It's the equivalent of believing what certain poor curriculums teach of the Roman empire at school. It'd be like reading the 1776 report and believing everything within. There's so much subjectivity—without a truly infallible system of recording data in times immemorial, none of it can be trusted as accurate in any meaningful way. It's all a big maybe, subjective perspectives, burdened with bias, laden with lies. For one to be a good historian, one must be exceptionally talented at cross-referencing, trying to find titbits of truth hidden within veiled fabrications and spurious propaganda.

WIth the number of people writing a video game? It's Who's Line is it Anyway? It's Improve Night at the local pub. New creative leads have new ideas, new directions to take the world in. What used to be relevant may still, or it may not, it all depends on their whims. None of it, however, is fact. So to cling to bits of lore written almost a decade ago (if not more than, in some cases) is ridiculous.

We can all be passionate about what we think happened and when, but in truth the only lore that matters is that which we're experiencing right now. That lore is that this silliness is over. There's no more charr/human war, or cold war, or anything. The renegades were folded into the Dominion and they fell. The separatists were forced to see the value of the treaty (thanks Cre!). The charr are under new, better, less warlike leadership. I mean, it's obvious that the majority never cared for that background for either the charr or humanity. It just lead to bad actors causing unnecessary strife.

Lore is subjective. The past is a guessing game. What matters is what's happening now. And what's happening now is that the war's over and that modern charr and modern humans alike don't really give a kitten about it. They'd rather focus on other issues.

All that's left is sitting with a big bucket of popcorn and watching as those who hate the charr orr the charr/human peace get owned by ArenaNet's current creative direction. I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough, all of the "Make Ascalon Great Again" rot is so very tired. How many times are you going to hire necromancers to raise that horse from the dead just so you can beat it to death again? The past is past.

And if you're really set on obsessing over what was? All I can say is... OK Boomer.

What. You straight up argued author Word of God in another thread and now the lore is somehow subjective?

No. No it’s not. The lore doesn’t bend to your perspective despite how many silly verbose fanfictions you post.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's also the fact that he's a Duke, a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

This also calls into question "Who" give him this title?Ebonhawke has no king no royals to bestow titles like that and Wade seems to be acting as the leader of whatever government system they have there.His title of Duke could be something he give to himself after being elected or given a leadership position and therefore be completely meaningless as evidence to support a royal lineage.(Not sure how their system works, doesn't appear to be any lore on this, least none I can find.. but I strongly suspect the leaders of Ebonhawke are elected by the people much like they were in Ascalon)

Leaders before him if elected may have held the title of Duke as well despite having no royal lineage.. it could simply be a formality and Wade is just claiming a royal lineage to legitimise it more.

I also want to correct a misconception you have: Wade doesn't mention Doric. He says, to quote,

Wade: My name's Commander Samuelsson, and I am the Duke of Ebonhawke.PC: By what authority do you hold this city?Wade: My forefathers were the kings of Ascalon, and I'll be damned if I let those renegades destroy their last legacy!

That only makes this more controversial really.. if he were just claiming Dorics lineage that would be one thing but saying his foefathers were the kings of Ascalon is far more bold a statement.There's no way Adelbern is one of his ancestors since Adelbern was the last Monarch of Ascalon.Specially since Gw1 exists and Rurik as we know was killed with no Heir.. nor any known siblings which is also backed up by the fact that the Ghost of King Adelbern is still waiting for the return of Prince Rurik in Gw2, which strongly suggests that he never learned that his only son was killed in Gw1 nor did he ever sire another heir.It is stated as well least in Adelberns biography on his Wiki page that Rurik was his only child.

This would have to make him descendant from Barradins side which is even less fleshed out than Adelberns and it would make more sense since they had the stronger claim and Adelbern was elected over Barradin by the people.Barradin also held the title of Duke as well and was the first in line for the throne after his brother's death.But again we have to ask "How" could he be from that line? since the only known child of Barradin is Lady Althea and she was as we know killed back in Gw1 before she could officially wed Prince Rurik and sire a legitimate heir.Barradin's brother the former king before Adelbern must have been childless when he died for Barradin to be first in line for the throne.

So for Wade to be directly linked to this line, for his foefathers to have been kings of Ascalon he must be a direct descendant of Barradin.But as far as we know Lady Althea was Barradin's only child.. or at the very least nobody ever mentioned a sibling.As for siring another child later in life.. it is possible.

Barradin was 20 when Lady Althea was born and 47 when she died.. there was room for him to sire another child in the last 18 years he was alive.Although if his wife was alive and of similar age then she would have been less likely to produce another hair with the whole biological clock possibly coming into play.Unfortunately we know very little of Barradin's wife.. actually we know absolutely nothing lol.Don't even know if she survived the searing or if he remarried with a younger wife so we can do nothing but speculate here.I expect his wife would have been of similar age though considering Althea was born when Barradin was 20 so his wife can't have been more than a couple of years younger at most.. or things would get weird there.It's also possible he married older too which would make the biological clock factor even more relevant.Althea's mother dying before or during the Searing and Barradin remarrying a younger bride before Althea's death would be far more likely here for Barradin to have a new legitimate heir.

But I would still say that it's highly unlikely that a legitimate child of Barradin would have left for Ebonhawke with the refugees.Specially if this child was born after Althea's death as they would have been no older than 8 years old thus they would very likely have been killed in the Foefire had they lived that long.And if Barradin did remarry and have a child with a younger bride and that child was old enough to be a soldier and fight etc then they would have been a person of interest during that time period.If someone like that had left with the Ebonhawke refugees I expect someone would have recorded that as it would have been significant to history much like Rurik leaving Ascalon was as well.

Honestly the only way I can see for Wade to be a blood relative of the royal lines that makes sense to me based on what little information we have now would be that he is a b** descendant of either Barradin or his brother..

Much as you said though..

Even if Ascalonian kings were as promiscuous as individuals like Charlamange , the fact he holds a high ranking noble title (literally the highest shown title besides current ruling family) goes a long way to show his legitimacy. Your huge "list of candidates for the throne" don't typically have noble titles when they're descended from kitten children.So that's another factor to consider as well.. if his title is a formality then it is meaningless and not evidence to support his linage.If he is of noble birth then the title matters and there are some seriously unanswered questions about the ascalon royal line.

I do admit though there is a lot of room for Anet to just write in some random relative that never existed until now and have Wade be connected to them lol.I expect that's what they will do if they ever go back and actually flesh out this part of the lore.But from what info we have now there is so much there for players to dispute Wade's legitimacy as a blood descendant of the Ascalonian Kings and the most logical way he could be related, least as far as I can see would be through a b** line which would not make him a noble.. or even a legitimate hair officially.

But that can be overturned by people who would recognise his claim regardless of him being of a b** line and that would honestly be the way I would write this in if it were my job to flesh out this lore.Would be much better than something like oh Barradin had a younger sister and yeah she had a kid and so that's how Wade is related, problem solved.Least in my opinion anyway lol

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@assasin oates.3018 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I offer some sagely wisdom: Lore... is subjective!

The archivist who gathers together every little scrap and treats it as though it's an objective truth would be a poor historian. It's the equivalent of believing what certain poor curriculums teach of the Roman empire at school. It'd be like reading the 1776 report and believing everything within. There's so much subjectivity—without a truly infallible system of recording data in times immemorial, none of it can be trusted as accurate in any meaningful way. It's all a big maybe, subjective perspectives, burdened with bias, laden with lies. For one to be a good historian, one must be exceptionally talented at cross-referencing, trying to find titbits of truth hidden within veiled fabrications and spurious propaganda.

WIth the number of people writing a video game? It's Who's Line is it Anyway? It's Improve Night at the local pub. New creative leads have new ideas, new directions to take the world in. What used to be relevant may still, or it may not, it all depends on their whims. None of it, however, is fact. So to cling to bits of lore written almost a decade ago (if not more than, in some cases) is ridiculous.

We can all be passionate about what we think happened and when, but in truth the only lore that matters is that which we're experiencing right now. That lore is that this silliness is over. There's no more charr/human war, or cold war, or anything. The renegades were folded into the Dominion and they fell. The separatists were forced to see the value of the treaty (thanks Cre!). The charr are under new, better, less warlike leadership. I mean, it's obvious that the majority never cared for that background for either the charr or humanity. It just lead to bad actors causing unnecessary strife.

Lore is subjective. The past is a guessing game. What matters is what's happening now. And what's happening now is that the war's over and that modern charr and modern humans alike don't really give a kitten about it. They'd rather focus on other issues.

All that's left is sitting with a big bucket of popcorn and watching as those who hate the charr orr the charr/human peace get owned by ArenaNet's current creative direction. I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough, all of the "Make Ascalon Great Again" rot is so very tired. How many times are you going to hire necromancers to raise that horse from the dead just so you can beat it to death again? The past is past.

And if you're really set on obsessing over what was? All I can say is... OK Boomer.

What. You straight up argued author Word of God in another thread and now the lore is somehow subjective?

No. No it’s not. The lore doesn’t bend to your perspective despite how many silly verbose fanfictions you post.

You. I like you. You're good people.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's also the fact that he's a
Duke,
a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

This also calls into question "Who" give him this title?Ebonhawke has no king no royals to bestow titles like that and Wade seems to be acting as the leader of whatever government system they have there.His title of Duke could be something he give to himself after being elected or given a leadership position and therefore be completely meaningless as evidence to support a royal lineage.(Not sure how their system works, doesn't appear to be any lore on this, least none I can find.. but I strongly suspect the leaders of Ebonhawke are elected by the people much like they were in Ascalon)

Most nobility titles are passed down in lineage. This would indicate that Wade's father was a Duke, and his father a Duke, and so on and so forth until we eventually get to a pre-Searing king.

And to clarify, the leaders of Ascalon were NOT elected by the people. Adelbern was a unique case, and Barradin was next in line for the throne. This is the entire subplot (that is largely glossed over) of the royalists in pre-Searing Ascalon. They are the party of Ascalonians who disagree with Adelbern being crowned king due to popular demand, because tradition dictates that Barradin should have succeeded his late brother.

The background setup for Adelbern was basically your typical "return of the king" fantasy narrative where a nation is ruled by a poor / evil king and he dies and another legitimate (but not next in line) who is loved by the people gets crowned. Guild Wars was basically lampshading that such kings do not last as great kings, by having Adelbern slowly decline into racism and stubbornness, and Rurik was taking the place as the new "crowd favorite".

And even though Adelbern was "elected" (not accurate terminology at all), he was still of royal lineage despite being a commoner before being crowned. It is unclear what caused his commoner status (descended from a bastard child? his parent(s) ousted in a family fued?), but there is zero indication that someone of non-Doric blood can ever gain royal titles.

That only makes this more controversial really.. if he were just claiming Dorics lineage that would be one thing but saying his foefathers were the kings of Ascalon is far more bold a statement.You're making a lot of huge assumptions here while claiming that Wade's statement of being descended from a more recent king than Doric is bold (it's not). To clarify them one by one...

It is stated as well least in Adelberns biography on his Wiki page that Rurik was his only child.To clarify, there is no other known child. But Adelbern's biography on his GWW page says Rurik is his firstborn. Typically, "firstborn" is used when there's also a secondborn child. Though not always.

This would have to make him descendant from Barradins side which is even less fleshed out than Adelberns and it would make more sense since they had the stronger claim and Adelbern was elected over Barradin by the people.First off, Barradin's line is a actually a bit more clear than Adelbern.

With Adelbern, we just know he's descended of royalty, was born a commoner, and had a son (labeled "firstborn" so implies a second child but not strictly so).

With Barradin, we know he's descended of royalty, was born as royalty, was next in line for the throne (implying that if he had siblings, he was the eldest after his brother), had a daughter, and a brother.

But again we have to ask "How" could he be from that line? since the only known child of Barradin is Lady Althea and she was as we know killed back in Gw1 before she could officially wed Prince Rurik and sire a legitimate heir.

You're completely ignoring the fact that there could be those of tracable royal descent besides Adelbern and Barradin. Even if we ignore the possibility of "Dukedom = royalty" straight out, thus ignore Gaben (who sadly died in the years following the Searing, but with zero evidence of his family - if we had one - dying too), the fact that Adelbern was of commoner birth but had traceable lineage to Ascalonian royalty implies others can too, especially those of lesser nobility.

But then there's the fact he's a Duke, and that nobility in Ascalon is by heritage (very easily recognized by the fact that noble estates are named by the family name, and not the given name), not election nor merit, indicating that Wade's father was a duke, and so on, until the time prior to the Foefire. Whether Adelbern granted the dukedom, or we're looking at a dukedom predating the Searing that isn't hinted at in GW1 (entirely possible given that Samantha Langmar is never hinted to be nobility but then we have the Langmar Estate indicating that she was, indeed, of nobility).

And in all honesty, it would make sense for there to be at least four dukes in Ascalon depending on how nobility's governing positions were handled. Gaben's estate was in the far, far north, while Barradin's estate was neatly placed not far out from Ascalon City. Depending on how large a dukedom covers in Ascalon, and that it overlaps with lesser nobility titles, then we could probably see a dukedom occurring for around Drascir (Iron Marches) and Diessa, if not also Pockmark Flats.

And if being a Duke = being of royal descent, then there's a good chance that Wade is descended from one of these.

Barradin's brother the former king before Adelbern must have been childless when he died for Barradin to be first in line for the throne.Not necessarily. You're assuming a direct lineage patriarchal inheritance, however, many royalties would often go to the eldest male in the family, meaning sometimes brothers of kings can be crowned before sons of kings - especially if said son of a king is not of age.

So for Wade to be directly linked to this line, for his foefathers to have been kings of Ascalon he must be a direct descendant of Barradin.Again: false. There is no reason to believe that at the time of GW1, there were only two individuals of provable royal descent living. This is a massive assumption on your part, and highly unrealistic - not to mention contradictory to your previous statement of:

It would also be weird for neither Barradin nor Adelbern to have cousins, since it's not very common for families to have only one child and be done with it, let alone several generations of such happening.

Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and had known descendants you could better be linked to.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1445326/#Comment_1445326

It seems like you suddenly jumped from "descended from Doric" to "descended from Barradin or Adelbern", but there's about a thousand years of middle ground for Wade's statement to be referring to. Maybe Wade's ancestor was Barradin's cousin and fourth in line to the throne until when Adelbern was crowned?

I do admit though there is a lot of room for Anet to just write in some random relative that never existed until now and have Wade be connected to them lol.I expect that's what they will do if they ever go back and actually flesh out this part of the lore.That's pretty much what they did to every royal line, because Prophecies doesn't give much details at all.

Heck, in Prophecies, the Ascalonian royal line was the most detailed, and this is arguably true even for Orrian still, despite Siren's Landing ghosts. And for Krytan, the only reason why we have so much detail is because of the Sea of Sorrows novel talking about a king and his children that gives us a bridge between Jennah and her unnamed father and Salma.

If it weren't for Sea of Sorrows, then Jennah's situation would be the exact same as Wade Samuelsson's.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There's also the fact that he's a
Duke,
a title historically given to people with close bloodlines to royalty without being in the immediately line of succession (though some nations would give such individuals titles like "Archduke" or "Grand Duke" but Ascalon has no show of these titles).

This also calls into question "Who" give him this title?Ebonhawke has no king no royals to bestow titles like that and Wade seems to be acting as the leader of whatever government system they have there.His title of Duke could be something he give to himself after being elected or given a leadership position and therefore be completely meaningless as evidence to support a royal lineage.(Not sure how their system works, doesn't appear to be any lore on this, least none I can find.. but I strongly suspect the leaders of Ebonhawke are elected by the people much like they were in Ascalon)

Most nobility titles are passed down in lineage. This would indicate that Wade's father was a Duke, and his father a Duke, and so on and so forth until we eventually get to a pre-Searing king.

Yes but that's assuming that those same systems are still in effect.. Ascalon is gone and Ebonhawke was founded by soldiers and civilians.A situation like that leaves a lot of room for structures to change, especially if nobility lines became blurred due to the chaos of the time which I would assume is a high probability.What evidence did any commoner have at that point to step up and say "i'm of noble blood"?

My point through all of this though has simply been, "We don't know" because the lore is at best, too vague and at worst, non existent.

And even though Adelbern was "elected" (not accurate terminology at all), he was still of royal lineage despite being a commoner before being crowned. It is unclear what caused his commoner status (descended from a kitten child? his parent(s) ousted in a family fued?), but there is zero indication that someone of non-Doric blood can ever gain royal titles.

Where is it said exactly that he was a commoner?Surely he'd have held a title his whole life prior to being King.. if not that just makes things even more convoluted and if Wade's title is as you claim passed down from ancestor to ancestor then his entire line could be a lie.. nothing more than the product of some ancestor who lied about being of noble heritage.

That only makes this more controversial really.. if he were just claiming Dorics lineage that would be one thing but saying his foefathers were the kings of Ascalon is far more bold a statement.You're making a lot of huge assumptions here while claiming that Wade's statement of being descended from a more recent king than Doric is bold (it's not). To clarify them one by one...

You are right, I am making a lot of assumptions.. but I kind of have to since this is part of the lore that really isn't fleshed out at all.There is very very little to work with on this subject.

It is stated as well least in Adelberns biography on his Wiki page that Rurik was his only child.To clarify, there is no other
known
child. But Adelbern's biography on his GWW page says Rurik is his
firstborn.
Typically, "firstborn" is used when there's also a secondborn child. Though not always.

Yeah, again the problem there though is it could technically be either of them..Although since Adelberns ghost is still longing for the return of Rurik in Gw2 i'd be more inclined to believe there was no other child, but that in itself is not hard evidence.

This would have to make him descendant from Barradins side which is even less fleshed out than Adelberns and it would make more sense since they had the stronger claim and Adelbern was elected over Barradin by the people.First off, Barradin's line is a actually a bit more clear than Adelbern.

With Adelbern, we just know he's descended of royalty, was born a commoner, and had a son (labeled "firstborn" so implies a second child but not strictly so).

With Barradin, we know he's descended of royalty, was born as royalty, was next in line for the throne (implying that if he had siblings, he was the eldest after his brother), had a daughter, and a brother.

By less fleshed out I meant that despite Barradin's importance in all this he was only ever a minor character in GW1.That also passes on to Gw2 as well where he again is only a minor character.. arguably nothing more than a cameo really.It's actually quite sad, he's a pretty significant part of the history of this world.

But again we have to ask "How" could he be from that line? since the only known child of Barradin is Lady Althea and she was as we know killed back in Gw1 before she could officially wed Prince Rurik and sire a legitimate heir.

You're completely ignoring the fact that there could be those of tracable royal descent besides Adelbern and Barradin. Even if we ignore the possibility of "Dukedom = royalty" straight out, thus ignore Gaben (who sadly died in the years following the Searing, but with zero evidence of his family - if we had one - dying too), the fact that Adelbern was of commoner birth but had traceable lineage to Ascalonian royalty implies others can too, especially those of lesser nobility.

Yes that's exactly my point though, we have nothing! absolutely nothing! that can contribute that information.It's why this is so frustratingly annoying XDA book, a scroll.. anything that would even suggest there there is something like that to show that the linage of the royal lines survived and were accurately identified.

It's the absence of anything like that which puts us in this mess.. when Wade says "My foe fathers were the Kings of Ascalon" all we can say in response is "prove it" lol

But then there's the fact he's a Duke, and that nobility in Ascalon is by heritage (very easily recognized by the fact that noble estates are named by the family name, and not the given name), not election nor merit, indicating that Wade's father was a duke, and so on, until the time prior to the Foefire. Whether Adelbern granted the dukedom, or we're looking at a dukedom predating the Searing that isn't hinted at in GW1 (entirely possible given that Samantha Langmar is never hinted to be nobility but then we have the Langmar Estate indicating that she was, indeed, of nobility).

The problem with Langmar Estate is that this was a location added to an old part of the game at a much later point in time.. it could be argued that this was nothing more than a throwback to a Gw1 character and the implications of an estate hinting at nobility was overlooked entirely.This was not a named location in Gw1 nor did Langmar hold a noble title that we know of.

So it's quite possible this property was given to her family long after her death for some unknown reason or deed.. or it could have been theirs for generations and Langmar was always a noble and her title was just never given.It's yet another one of those "who the hell knows" situations lol.

And in all honesty, it would make sense for there to be at least four dukes in Ascalon depending on how nobility's governing positions were handled. Gaben's estate was in the far, far north, while Barradin's estate was neatly placed not far out from Ascalon City. Depending on how large a dukedom covers in Ascalon, and that it overlaps with lesser nobility titles, then we could probably see a dukedom occurring for around Drascir (Iron Marches) and Diessa, if not also Pockmark Flats.

And if being a Duke = being of royal descent, then there's a good chance that Wade is descended from one of these.

It's possible, but without something to back that it's a stretch to believe any of them survived the foefire.Specially when there is no record of any Dukes or even nobles being part of the caravan that founded Ebonhawke.

Barradin's brother the former king before Adelbern must have been childless when he died for Barradin to be first in line for the throne.Not necessarily. You're assuming a direct lineage patriarchal inheritance, however, many royalties would often go to the eldest male in the family, meaning sometimes brothers of kings can be crowned before sons of kings - especially if said son of a king is not of age.

It's possible, although I think more commonly it does tend to go from father to son more often than brother to brother when a son is involved.Yet another "we just don't know" problem caused by the sheer lack of lore in this area of the game.

So for Wade to be directly linked to this line, for his foefathers to have been kings of Ascalon he must be a direct descendant of Barradin.Again: false. There is no reason to believe that at the time of GW1, there were only two individuals of provable royal descent living. This is a massive assumption on your part, and highly unrealistic - not to mention contradictory to your previous statement of:

It would also be weird for neither Barradin nor Adelbern to have cousins, since it's not very common for families to have only one child and be done with it, let alone several generations of such happening.

Claiming you're a descendant of a King or Royal who died around 200 years ago is a lot more believable than claiming you're a descendant of one who died well over a thousand years ago and
had known descendants you could better be linked to.

It seems like you suddenly jumped from "descended from Doric" to "descended from Barradin or Adelbern", but there's about a thousand years of middle ground for Wade's statement to be referring to. Maybe Wade's ancestor was Barradin's cousin and fourth in line to the throne until when Adelbern was crowned?

I did, that was because you corrected me about Wade's claims to Doric which I got wrong.I jumped to Barradin and Adelbern because they are the only recorded Royals in the lore that we have to connect him to.

I know he doesn't have to be linked to either but since all we can do is speculate and assume based on almost nothing to work with that's what I did.His claim is stronger if we can trace him back in some way to kings/royals that we know.It's not so much if his lineage is to some unknown party that only ends up existing to prove his legitimacy, that's not as interesting.Plus anyone with any claim to be noble could come along and claim to have a stronger claim that he does if there is no evidence to prove his claim.

I do admit though there is a lot of room for Anet to just write in some random relative that never existed until now and have Wade be connected to them lol.I expect that's what they will do if they ever go back and actually flesh out this part of the lore.That's pretty much what they did to every royal line, because Prophecies doesn't give much details at all.

Heck, in Prophecies, the Ascalonian royal line was
the most detailed
, and this is arguably true even for Orrian still, despite Siren's Landing ghosts. And for Krytan, the only reason why we have so much detail is because of the Sea of Sorrows novel talking about a king and his children that gives us a bridge between Jennah and her unnamed father and Salma.

If it weren't for Sea of Sorrows, then Jennah's situation would be the exact same as Wade Samuelsson's.

At least she got something..I wish they had given more thought to Wade's line as well, the implications of a human Ascalonian king would be fun to explore with the Charr, and the whole breaking the Ghost Curse problem.It's a good story to revisit sometime.. hopefully someday after End of Dragons we'll finally get some answers.

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@Teratus.2859 said:It's a good story to revisit sometime.. hopefully someday after End of Dragons we'll finally get some answers.After EoD I suspect the next LW season will expand on whatever parts of Cantha we didn't get to in EoD, and do things like deal with the Dragon Empire being racist xenophobes, and more on the Luxons and Kurzicks, other plot threads introduced in EoD, etc. etc.

Then I would want the LW season after that to come back to Tyria to deal with various unresolved plots

  1. Have a LW episode in Ascalon, maybe just east of Iron Marches that lets us go to Drascir, and involves us getting Magdaer back from whatever smith Eir gave it to, and having Wade, and a delegation of Charr and humans, work together to end the ghost problem in Ascalon, as the final nail in the peace plot.
  2. Another can take us to the centaur homelands Woodland Cascades. Many of the centaur tribes have seen that the war with humanity isn't going anywhere, and after the defeat of the war leader back in vanilla, the evidence uncovered behind Caudecus's involvement, and the devastation brought my the destroyers during IBS, many of them are looking for a peace with Kryta. Though obviously Modniir agents don't want that.
  3. Another can take us into the Maguuma wastes, past the bandit bridge in Brisban, and involve(though with some retcons) finding Malyck tree somewhere up north. Maybe make it akin to Siren's landing where we get to see some unchained Mordrem.
  4. A fourth can take us somewhere underground, to find one of the lost Asuran cities, now open to being retaken following Primordus's defeat. Have the Inquest be involved, and finally end their schemes.
  5. Maybe release a raid involving the Wizard's Tower somewhere in here.
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@"Teratus.2859" said:Yes but that's assuming that those same systems are still in effect.. Ascalon is gone and Ebonhawke was founded by soldiers and civilians.A situation like that leaves a lot of room for structures to change, especially if nobility lines became blurred due to the chaos of the time which I would assume is a high probability.What evidence did any commoner have at that point to step up and say "i'm of noble blood"?

My point through all of this though has simply been, "We don't know" because the lore is at best, too vague and at worst, non existent.

This lore is of the same level of vagueness as any other bloodline lore, and those have all turned out correct (except one case which is very obviously false from the dialogue itself).

Empiracle evidence in ArenaNet's writing style - especially of pre-2013 - indicates that since there's no other NPC implying Wade is a liar (either intnetionally or because he believes false information), then until newer ArenaNet writers decide to retcon his statement it is, indeed, factual.

As to assuming those same systems are in effect - without Wade being an outright liar, that's a hard claim to fake, as asking anyone else would prove or disprove him when lineage comes attached to noble titles. It certainly wouldn't be unfathomable for a duke who disagreed with Adelbern to be among those forced to join the Ebon Vanguard, or for the son of a duke to join the Vanguard upon their return (their return no doubt bolstered their numbers due to popularity, as that's a thing that typically happens).

Where is it said exactly that he was a commoner?Surely he'd have held a title his whole life prior to being King.. if not that just makes things even more convoluted and if Wade's title is as you claim passed down from ancestor to ancestor then his entire line could be a lie.. nothing more than the product of some ancestor who lied about being of noble heritage.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Opposition_to_the_King"These Royalist fools oppose King Adelbern because he was not born into nobility."

It's the absence of anything like that which puts us in this mess.. when Wade says "My foe fathers were the Kings of Ascalon" all we can say in response is "prove it" lolI mean, like I've said, we can say that for almost all bloodline or royal lineages. We as players don't have any "books or scrolls" to show lineages.

Shiro Tagachi could trace his family line to Kaineng Tah. But we never see it - it's literally just a couple lines in lore. But no one doubts it, because it's stated in lore.

If you treat anything that has one source as "highly questionable" then that's pretty much 80% or more of the franchise's lore. I mean, under that argument, the statement that Mazdak is Doric's son becomes questionable; the statement that King Roderick created the upper city gardens is questionable; the notion that Caudecus had his wife killed intentionally is questionable; the fact Gaheron wanted to dominate Tyria becomes questionable; that Mallyx sought to overthrow Kormir is questionable; etc. etc. etc.

The problem with Langmar Estate is that this was a location added to an old part of the game at a much later point in time.. it could be argued that this was nothing more than a throwback to a Gw1 character and the implications of an estate hinting at nobility was overlooked entirely.This was not a named location in Gw1 nor did Langmar hold a noble title that we know of.

So it's quite possible this property was given to her family long after her death for some unknown reason or deed.. or it could have been theirs for generations and Langmar was always a noble and her title was just never given.It's yet another one of those "who the hell knows" situations lol.

Ascalon wasn't really in a state to be building massive estates after the events of the Searing. So the likelihood of it being given to her family within the 11 years following her death and prior to the Foefire, and being build in that time, is exceedingly unlikely.

His claim is stronger if we can trace him back in some way to kings/royals that we know.Except that it isn't. This would be accurate if we're talking about reality, where the truth of the matter isn't dictated by the whims of a small group of individuals. But the lore is whatever the writers say it is, and without putting in seeds of doubt, the chances of an NPC being an unreliable narrator is relatively slim.

Sure, not impossible, but it doesn't get determined by the presentation of in-world sources, since the NPC is the in-world source.

It's not so much if his lineage is to some unknown party that only ends up existing to prove his legitimacy, that's not as interesting.It might not be as interesting but... that's exactly how lore is written. Salma in GW1 had lineage to some unknown party - King Jadon went unnamed for four years before finally being named in War in Kryta content. That never made her lineage questionable at all.

Oswald Thorn's relation to the Krytan throne was never questionable, despite the fact we know nothing of his father - even to this day, 16 years after his introduction. ArenaNet adding in Oswald's brother and son, giving them names and faces, was in no way "not as interesting", nor when they added his wives into the lore. Finally getting to see Zola's father in GW2, when he was never brought up in GW1, and tying him into a vague line about an Elonian princess and her father, was in no way "not as interesting".

Plus anyone with any claim to be noble could come along and claim to have a stronger claim that he does if there is no evidence to prove his claim.In reality, sure. In fiction? Such would be written as intentional red herrings or unreliable narrators, and when such is written as such, there's clues that it is such.

And the lack of other mentions is not a clue to such. Especially for ArenaNet where they seed the lore far apart and in small quantities.

I wish they had given more thought to Wade's line as well, the implications of a human Ascalonian king would be fun to explore with the Charr, and the whole breaking the Ghost Curse problem.It's a good story to revisit sometime.. hopefully someday after End of Dragons we'll finally get some answers.At this point, I'm pretty sure they're done with Ascalon. The way they handled the Ebonhawke DRM was just downright sad in closing every plot thread except the ghost one.

Wouldn't surprise me if the new writers think Rytlock's stunt in Season 2 cleansed the Foefire ghost problem. Despite the fact it very much didn't.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:At this point, I'm pretty sure they're done with Ascalon. The way they handled the Ebonhawke DRM was just downright sad in closing every plot thread except the ghost one.Except it didn't.

  • The Charr had allowed the people of Ebonhawke to leave the fortress, and establish new settlements in the Field of Ruin, even in vanilla.
  • We defended the treaty summit back in vanilla as well. Which led to the treaty formally being signed at some point after that. Thus officially ending the conflict between the Charr and humanity.
  • We also end up killing the leader of the Renegades back in vanilla. Ending the significant threat of that faction.
  • With the death of Cadecus, and the collapse of the White Mantle, in LWS3 the biggest source of funding for the Separatists was removed. Breaking their power.
  • We have had several joint Human/Charr operations since vanilla, building up the Human/Charr relation alongside the treaty signing, and the establishment of new settlements. Including the Charr helping humanity during the White Mantle attacks in Lake Doric, and humans helping the Charr during their own civil war.
  • The Flame Legion problem was also largely resolved in vanilla with the player's raiding their citadel, killing Gaheron, and then returning later to kill the leaders of the various factions that sprung up after Gaheron's death. And we deal with remnants who joined forces with the Dredge back in LWS1. Crecia and Efram bringing the Flame Legion back into the great Charr society at the start of IBS ended that storyline for good.
  • What few Renegades still existed joined up with Bangar at the start of IBS, becoming part of his Dominion. And we crushed the Dominion/Frost Legion in Drizzlewood. Further ending that problem.
  • There are many events, and several metas, dealing with the Ogre invasion problem in Ascalon.
  • Not to mention all the various events/hearts in Ascalon dealing with the Flame Legion/Separatists/Renegades that supplement the above stories.

The Ebonhawke DRM did nothing to close any story. All of these stories were logically ended in the 8 years of GW2's existence previously, and we knew they were over before the DRM even came out. The DRM just references that, yes, all of those years of destroying these factions actually caused them to be destroyed, something we already knew beforehand. At best it was the epilogue to these already ended stories.

It would honestly strain credibility beyond the breaking point to try to force these narratives to keep going after all we have done in GW2's timespan.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:It's a good story to revisit sometime.. hopefully someday after End of Dragons we'll finally get some answers.After EoD I suspect the next LW season will expand on whatever parts of Cantha we didn't get to in EoD, and do things like deal with the Dragon Empire being racist xenophobes, and more on the Luxons and Kurzicks, other plot threads introduced in EoD, etc. etc.

It's a high probability we'll stick around Cantha yea.. although we have no idea how End of Dragons will play out yet so the Cantha we get to may be a very different one to the one we have after End of Dragons.May not even be a Dragon Empire left by the time we're done or at least the same one :P

I dunno about a plot around racism and xenophobia though.. it would be a difficult thing to do right and possibly very uncomfortable if it was, it would also be very unbelievable if it ended with a "solved it" moment as well.We know there is a racism element involved with Human and Charr too but that was build on centuries of war and conflict, both of them had a lot of good reasons to hate each other.The racism and xenophobia in Cantha is far more aligned to just baseless hate.. it comes from an attitude of supremacy which is waaaay different.

That particular issue is very very potent and it take's a very long time to get rid of.. usually generations for those kinds of attitudes to change, and that's without a resurgence of the problem.Cantha may be on the path to this already like Humans and Charr were at the start of Gw2 but we won't know till we get there.

We can see this done pretty well in Gw2 least with the Charr and Humans in the Ebonhawke DRM the way Humans reacted to the Charr wanting to help them.. even as allies they still don't trust each other, the history is just too bloody and painful and most of those people will likely feel that way for the rest of their lives.Likely passing some of it onto their kids as well and on and on for a few generations until eventually it vanishes or some nincompoop's decide to throw gasoline on that fire >.<But as I said though.. this hate they had/have for each other was built on something very different to the hate that came out of Cantha.There were conflicts with the Tengu in the past and they may have contributed to it but Human supremacy played far more of a role there.. Tengu were not the only race to suffer.. all non humans were targets.

I don't think we know the current situation of this issue in Cantha atm either, it may not be as bad as it used to be when we get there.. I do recall something about Cantha being less xenophobic than it used to but I can't for the life of me recall where I saw that.

Then I would want the LW season after that to come back to Tyria to deal with various unresolved plots

  1. Have a LW episode in Ascalon, maybe just east of Iron Marches that lets us go to Drascir, and involves us getting Magdaer back from whatever smith Eir gave it to, and having Wade, and a delegation of Charr and humans, work together to end the ghost problem in Ascalon, as the final nail in the peace plot.

May not need a delegation of Charr for that, there was a little hint dropped in the Bloodtide DRM about the possibility of Malice becoming a new Khan Ur.She claimed she didn't want it but with everything that's gone on with the Charr recently I wouldn't be surprised if there does end up being a new Khan Ur, would still love for Rytlock to be the one who gets it but i'm really bias on that XD

Think of the scenario it could be though.Wade becoming the King of Ascalon possessing Magdaer and working with Rytlock the Khan Ur of Charr who possess both the Crown and Sohothin together finally ending the curse.. that would be just kitten awesome!!! :DMore so if it results in a huge battle with the Ghosts.. living former enemies Humans and Charr standing together united against the racism and madness of the past.. with Wade and Rytlock together being the ones to put Adelbern down once and for all.Then afterwards Sohothin and Magdaer become symbols of friendship between Humans and Charr and would be passed down to their successors over time, The Kings and Khans of Ascalon would always possess those blades.

Ahh that would be great, i'd love it to end like that ^^

  1. Another can take us to the centaur homelands Woodland Cascades. Many of the centaur tribes have seen that the war with humanity isn't going anywhere, and after the defeat of the war leader back in vanilla, the evidence uncovered behind Caudecus's involvement, and the devastation brought my the destroyers during IBS, many of them are looking for a peace with Kryta. Though obviously Modniir agents don't want that.

Another great plot line i'd love to see resolved as well.I'd love to see the Krytans and Centaurs end up in the same allied state as the Ascalonians and the Charr.Could lead to a fun plot a few centuries down the timeline where Ascalon and Kryta end up fighting another war.Horsies Vs Cats :D

  1. Another can take us into the Maguuma wastes, past the bandit bridge in Brisban, and involve(though with some retcons) finding Malyck tree somewhere up north. Maybe make it akin to Siren's landing where we get to see some unchained Mordrem.

Wasn't that White Mantle base beyond that portal?.. the one we broke into with Livia in season 3.Can't remember exactly but I would love to have the Malyck story resolved as well someday, how though I've no idea.

  1. A fourth can take us somewhere underground, to find one of the lost Asuran cities, now open to being retaken following Primordus's defeat. Have the Inquest be involved, and finally end their schemes.

I am actually curious what the Asura and Skritt will do once the Depths are available again.The Asura have established themselves extremely well on the surface now so I don't think their race will completely relocate back into the Depths.They might but I dunno, I wouldn't bet on it.A number of them likely will go back down there and setup new cities or restore what's left of their old ones.

The Skritt though.. I think a lot of them will go back down there but not all of them, too many shinies above ground :PThat said though if many Skritt go back they could end up forming a mega society down there thanks to their collective intelligence.It would be hilarious to go down there one day to find thousands of Skritt living in an old Asuran city and they're practically all genius's that wear fine clothes and are well groomed, well spoken with proud and powerful postures.I'd laugh so damn hard at the sight of that XD

The Dwarves I do expect to remain in the depths of the world, I don't think they would return to the surface and start building settlements again.Pretty sure they also immortal and cannot reproduce either so they will probably build one last city of the Dwarves somewhere underground and remain there.Or maybe they'll completely turn to stone or leave Tyria entirely.. who knows.It's also a possibility that once Primordus is dead the dwarves will either revert to their original state or they'll all die.They used the Rite originally to become stone to fight the Destroyers.. it'll be interesting to see if anything happens to the Dwarves once that enemy is finally defeated.

  1. Maybe release a raid involving the Wizard's Tower somewhere in here.

Oh god yes, I've been wanting something on that thing for over a decade lmaoWizards tower is a place i've wanted to explore since the first time I saw it in Gw1.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Yes but that's assuming that those same systems are still in effect.. Ascalon is gone and Ebonhawke was founded by soldiers and civilians.A situation like that leaves a lot of room for structures to change, especially if nobility lines became blurred due to the chaos of the time which I would assume is a high probability.What evidence did any commoner have at that point to step up and say "i'm of noble blood"?

My point through all of this though has simply been, "We don't know" because the lore is at best, too vague and at worst, non existent.

Empiracle evidence in ArenaNet's writing style - especially of pre-2013 - indicates that since there's no other NPC implying Wade is a liar (either intnetionally or because he believes false information), then until newer ArenaNet writers decide to retcon his statement it is, indeed, factual.

This is probably the biggest difference in how we're looking at this subject, you're including a lot of out of game stuff into your points (which is all good and informative btw) where as i'm looking at this only from an in game world perspective.Wade's words being all I have to go on as any definitive proof, He doesn't even have a parent or sibling in game or even in the lore to strengthen his claim.Even the existence or mention of a Duke Wade Samuelson Senior in game would make a difference, the fact that we have to assume the existence of that character contributes to the doubts of his son's legitimacy..Because the writers didn't bother to create him, we had to.. and nothing we players create is ever going to be part of this game unless a writer puts it in stone so to speak.

A funny scenario would be that a Roleplayer could create a Duke Dave Samuelson and say he's Wade's older brother who's first in line for the throne and that character would humorously have as much relevance as the fictional father of Wade since they're both technically player creations. XD

As to assuming those same systems are in effect - without Wade being an outright liar, that's a hard claim to fake, as asking anyone else would prove or disprove him when lineage comes attached to noble titles. It certainly wouldn't be unfathomable for a duke who disagreed with Adelbern to be among those forced to join the Ebon Vanguard, or for the son of a duke to join the Vanguard upon their return (their return no doubt bolstered their numbers due to popularity, as that's a thing that typically happens).

It's not unfathomable no, but I would think that a person of status like a Duke or nobles traveling with the Vanguard caravan to Ebonhawke would have been something Kimmes the Historian would have made a note of at least.

Assuming the same systems thing I was just pointing out that a lot of time passed between Gw1 and 2 and without a King of Ascalon, not to mention the changes in Kryta's governmental systems as well it's not entirely impossible that the systems in Ebonhawke also changed over time.The people were able to put Adelbern in power over Barradin back in Gw1.. they may have a similar or even more power to choose their leaders today in Ebonhawke.That's what I meant when I said Wade's title could be just a formality he holds as the elected leader.. and he's using it to strengthen his claim that he's a descendant of Kings.The title also being a point of contention for the same reason as Wade's heritage.. Wade said so is the only evidence the writers provided.

To be clear I do agree that Wade more than likely is the legit heir, and the writers revisiting this part of the lore will be far more likely to expand on Wade than they would to just create a whole new character and do the whole "no actually this character is the real heir" thing.Well unless there was some kind of reason or agenda being pushed with it like Ascalon has to have a Queen or something cause reasons..I doubt that will happen lol but you never know XD

Where is it said exactly that he was a commoner?Surely he'd have held a title his whole life prior to being King.. if not that just makes things even more convoluted and if Wade's title is as you claim passed down from ancestor to ancestor then his entire line could be a lie.. nothing more than the product of some ancestor who lied about being of noble heritage.
"These Royalist fools oppose King Adelbern because he was not born into nobility."

Ahh not born into nobility, ok I thought there was a specific bit somewhere using the word commoner.

It's the absence of anything like that which puts us in this mess.. when Wade says "My foe fathers were the Kings of Ascalon" all we can say in response is "prove it" lolI mean, like I've said, we can say that for almost all bloodline or royal lineages. We as players don't have any "books or scrolls" to show lineages.If you treat anything that has one source as "highly questionable" then that's pretty much 80% or more of the franchise's lore. I mean, under that argument, the statement that Mazdak is Doric's son becomes questionable; the statement that King Roderick created the upper city gardens is questionable; the notion that Caudecus had his wife killed intentionally is questionable; the fact Gaheron wanted to dominate Tyria becomes questionable; that Mallyx sought to overthrow Kormir is questionable; etc. etc. etc.

You are right, but in many of those cases we do have something of a direct family connection.. and of course there is a direct connection to a ruling monarch.Jennah's father was a king, as was Thorn, his son a prince, Barradin's Duke title legitimised by his brother being a King etc etc

Wade doesn't have that same connection, he has no family what so ever that he can speak off because the writers never give him one.. and he has no direct named descendant who was a ruling Monarch.

We assume his father was a Duke and his father etc etc because it makes sense, but it's not written in as a fact by the writers.That's the main difference between say Wade and Jennah, the writers did make Jennah a Queen and her Father a King and they did make Wade a Duke too.But as I mentioned above how do we know for sure that the Title of Duke still means what it did 250 years ago?.. Kryta changed a lot in that time, Ebonhawke could have as well but unlike Kryta we don't know how Ebonhawkes political structure works.. we just assume it works the same as Ascalons did 250 years ago.. and it very well might, but we can't confirm that.We players have to assume quite a lot about not just Wade but also the political system of Ebonhawke to really justify both Wade's claim and the title he holds.

There could very well be books and scrolls etc that do legitimise Wade's bloodlines.. but they don't exist until a writer actually says they do lolIt's that key element that Wade is missing and sure you could take Wade's words as gospel since a writer did give him that dialogue.But for a claim like that.. to be that important and leave that much room for speculation and story potential.. I need more than just a single NPC.. a minor one at that, with no written backstory telling me that's how it is..Hell Minipets have more character than Wade does XD

The problem with Langmar Estate is that this was a location added to an old part of the game at a much later point in time.. it could be argued that this was nothing more than a throwback to a Gw1 character and the implications of an estate hinting at nobility was overlooked entirely.This was not a named location in Gw1 nor did Langmar hold a noble title that we know of.

So it's quite possible this property was given to her family long after her death for some unknown reason or deed.. or it could have been theirs for generations and Langmar was always a noble and her title was just never given.It's yet another one of those "who the hell knows" situations lol.

Ascalon wasn't really in a state to be building massive estates after the events of the Searing. So the likelihood of it being given to her family within the 11 years following her death and prior to the Foefire,
and
being build in that time, is exceedingly unlikely.

I was thinking more that it was a vacant estate that was renamed to Langmar Estate before it was destroyed entirely not a new location that was built after the Searing.

It's not so much if his lineage is to some unknown party that only ends up existing to prove his legitimacy, that's not as interesting.It might not be as interesting but... that's
exactly
how lore is written. Salma in GW1 had lineage to some unknown party - King Jadon went unnamed for
four years
before finally being named in War in Kryta content. That never made her lineage questionable at all.

True but she supporters.. and even though Jadon wasn't named he was just like Jennah's father written in as a ruling monarch.Wade doesn't have that.. I don't think there is a single NPC that even mentions him and his lineage..That is something that does merit rechecking sometime though.. it's been a long time since I went around talking to random NPC's in Fields of Ruin.Could very likely be some that I've completely forgotten about.

Oswald Thorn's relation to the Krytan throne was never questionable, despite the fact we know nothing of his father -
even to this day, 16 years after his introduction
. ArenaNet adding in Oswald's brother and son, giving them names and faces, was in no way "not as interesting", nor when they added his wives into the lore.

There is a lot of history around the Mad King though.. he's very famous for all the wrong reasons lol plus he was a King.. a ruling monarch.Wade is just a Duke and we can't validate that Duke means the same thing it did back in Gw1 either.

Even the Krytan system has changed enough that Krytan Kings and Queens are not the same as they used to be, Krytan politics has changed even to include Ascalonians which begs the question why Wade hasn't been more involved in the political stuff there.. or maybe he is just offscreen and we never see it.. more of that it's not written problem.There were corrupt groups like the Ministry and the White Mantle trying to legitimately remove the Queen as well.. closest thing in Gw1 to that I think would be the Royalists but they were not legitimately tying to remove Adelbern.. they were trying to violently overthrow him.. basically they were terrorists where as the Ministry are Politicians...And for the sake of not wanting to get a ban.. I shall refrain from adding some jokes to that XD

I wish they had given more thought to Wade's line as well, the implications of a human Ascalonian king would be fun to explore with the Charr, and the whole breaking the Ghost Curse problem.It's a good story to revisit sometime.. hopefully someday after End of Dragons we'll finally get some answers.At this point, I'm pretty sure they're done with Ascalon. The way they handled the Ebonhawke DRM was just downright sad in closing every plot thread except the ghost one.

Wouldn't surprise me if the new writers think Rytlock's stunt in Season 2 cleansed the Foefire ghost problem. Despite the fact it very much didn't.

You are probably right about that lolGod I hope that doesn't end up being the case though, that would suck so much.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:I dunno about a plot around racism and xenophobia though.. it would be a difficult thing to do right and possibly very uncomfortable if it was, it would also be very unbelievable if it ended with a "solved it" moment as well.The thing is, the people of Cantha weren't racist themselves. The racism and xenophobia comes from a relatively small group of powerful individuals(Ministry of Purity/The Emperor) forcing it on everyone else. In situations like that all you really need to do is remove that power structure, and the racist/xenophobic actions, like the isolationism, and purges, end. Empires that act that way in general also tend to not treat their own people well either. I suspect we will see a lot of anti-Empire sentiment from the common people over draconian practices, especially from the Kurzick and Luxon groups who likely never really accepted the Empire's forceful re-assimilation efforts.

She claimed she didn't want it but with everything that's gone on with the Charr recently I wouldn't be surprised if there does end up being a new Khan Ur,I actually would be. The whole point of the Khan-Ur story thus far is that Charr society has become so stratified by the High Legion systems that the Charr are unwilling to accept a Khan-Ur from another Legion. Not to mention, Charr society naturally breeds egotists, and narcissists, which means many Charr are unwilling to accept even their own imperator becoming Khar-Ur, because they see themselves as the only viable Khan-Ur. The Charr's quest to become Khan-Ur has only caused massive destruction for Charr soceity, and has only brought doom upon those seeking it(Bangar and Smodur) The remaining Imperators have seen this, and are able to recognize that the very idea of a Khan-Ur is something from a past, and should just stay there. The Charr literally don't need it to function, and to obtain it would require absolutely massive genocide among the Charr, and wouldn't last long either.

Wasn't that White Mantle base beyond that portal?.. the one we broke into with Livia in season 3.No, the White Mantle base was on the eastern side of Brisban, behind a bandit camp. The bridge is o nthe western side, and goes off into the Maguuma wastes, into an area we haven't explored in GW2.

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As I suspected, this has been a time for popcorn.

The thing is is that the writers have decided that it's time for mutualism. In prior stories, there's been a lot about parasitism and the divides it causes, with gods and kings serving as parasites driving a wedge between peoples. The thing is, there's only so many ways you can tell this story, and another problem is is that there's no way to really end it. Oh, I get that it seems exciting at the outset—all those mens in their shiny bits et al—but there isn't anywhere for it to go. This is true historically aswell.

The parasitism of charismatic, greedy leaders just leads to a whole lot of pointless death and people scratching their heads and wondering why they did any of that to begin with. Following that, a time of uncertainty between the sides as the last throes of propaganda-induced brainwashing subside before trust returns. It's sad that so many can have their reward systems hijacked to end up in wars in the first place, really. It's not inspiring. Mindlessly obeying parasites isn't inspiring.

Bangar's hubris brought so much death before he was finally humiliated and laid low by Jormag and their magic collar—which I loved. The message being that any who dare to be the next Bangar will be humiliated just so aswell, putting the fear of dragon in the parasites so they won't have another go at it.

The truth is is that war is pathetic. It's just a greedy parasite controlling a huge body of hosts who lack the self-awareness to question why they're going to war for a monster. In the after-effects of a war, as I said, it's just people wondering why they even did it in the first place. It didn't serve any end. It wasn't helpful to them. It was all pointless. Just a pointless waste of life. There's only the shame of being slaves to a parasite left.

Whether that parasite is Caudecus, Bangar, Balthazar, Joko, or anyone else who's served that role in the story. The end result is just people feeling stupid and trying to put their lives back together after the spell is broken.

The spell has been broken for charr and humans alike—they're now awake and looking at the world they've created, and they have a lot of hard decisions to make about their future. This is why I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a khan-ur, since this is the time for it. After the collaring of Bangar, many charr will be looking at war and realising it isn't this glorious, fantastic thing where you can be some lauded warrior-hero. It's just... very shameful. This is going to send shockwaves through charr culture.

Another angle to look at this from? The Olmakhan and the Efram's Flame legion. There are sources the charr can turn to to channel their energies in other ways, toward a more productive industrialised society. They can take the technologies they developed in war and find new uses for them in a different world. As the last threats are defeated, the world of Tyria is moving ever more toward an era of peace. Charr with it.

I feel that many charr will look at the Olmakhan and wonder if their warlike culture is all it's cracked up to be. Humans and charr working together, the ghost problem could very soon be solved, and this would only cement their trust and lay the firmament for a truly united future. Mutualism is just so much more logical, after all. Until a race fully detaches from nature—nature's need for diversity cannot be ignored. I mean, I imagine we're all familiar with inbreeding. Nature loves diversity.

There were so many charr who died in this pointless war, there's so much shame to be owned for it, that the charr will look at themselves as a peoples, as a culture, and as a society in order to figure out where they want to go. The entire charr race is facing a tumultuous time of great uncertainty, it's the perfect time for a khan-ur to rise.

Let old hatreds be done with. It's just parasite brain-hacking anyway, that's the reason behind all prejudice. At some point, some parasite wanted to exploit a resource and they used their talents to hijack the reward systems of the masses to have them dehumanise the resource they wanted to exploit. See: Slavery. It's shameful. There's no pride in it. All it says is that you were hacked, all prejudice says is that you were hacked and you don't possess the wherewithal to unhack yourself.

Whether Tyria or the real world, mutualism is always the most logical approach. Let old hatreds rest, all they are is old shames that should be left behind and moved beyond.

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