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miss arnhem.7840

By miss arnhem.7840
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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

He's not the only person in this thread who has used examples of rarely used traits/skills as examples of why thief needs to be gutted. There was a video linked of a thief who put up a shadow refuge before going down and ended up in stealth for an eternity. When was the last time any decent thief used shadow refuge? That utility sitting no your skill bar is soooooo 2015.

Daredevil has 30% physical damage reduction , while DE have range+damageMake it so stealth behaves like other games . And both specs can use teleport skills such as Shadowstep or Death's Retreat , to avoid combat . If so reduce those cost to 3 , or cd to 10:)

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

How do you know that ?

How do I know what? Which specs were overnerfed and don't see use? Or what is available to every class?...how do you NOT know that?

Are you like Ownen, there thief dont use stealth ?:P

Yes, I pretended thief doesn't use evades, this is exactly what I wrote, good job. :)Are you, by any chance, one of those people that instantly pm any thief that uses SINGLE stealth stack during a fight that they play "broken permastealth class"?

I am like you , i enjoy cercullar comments:)

I enjoy your inability to spell the word circular.

If you want stealth to be the same as other games why don't you... play those other games instead?

Why not nerf stealth and reduce the cost of s/d spells ?More survibility for thieves

Oh so you want every thief to be forced into s/d? What a boring, horrendous mentality to have.

Use 1 weapon for damage , use another for defenseShould we gut even more the teleport of the Shortbow ? Will it force people to use other weapons ?

As a thief who doesn't use shortbow now, or s/d, I'm failing to understand your argument here. Are you suggesting I should be using shortbow right now as my means of defense? Why are you so dead set on wanting thieves to be forced into s/d, shortbow builds?

You said , that if people want something nerfed , then they give a copensation .More active VISIBLE defense , is better for the thief

Invisible isn't invincible. Just because you can't see the thief doesn't mean you can't put him in the dumpster. Competent players understand they should save defensive utilities for the hardest hitting attacks from a thief, which come from stealth.

The reason stealth is so punishing via the thief class as a whole is because it punishes people who can't remain calm from the pressure that comes from an opponent entering and exiting stealth. Players with slower reaction times and who are tilted easily mentally always perform poorly against rogue classes in every game.

For some reason, I'm guessing players like you, even if you could see a thief evading all of your skills, would still lose those fights and end up coming right back here to ask for thieves to lose those same evade frames anyway. Thieves could be nerfed straight into the grave and you all would still want to take more from them. It's cool, I get it.

Edit: So if your compensation is more visible defense, what's your compensation for removing stealth attacks? Where's my offensive compensation too? Get real.

If by nerfing stealth means that Thief will go in the dumpster . Then it mean that stealth is overpowered and should get conpesation elsewhere :PIf s/d becomes problematic , we increase its cost/or reduce the damage if you stay longer than 10 sec . While for the first 10 sec is versa

You nerf core aspects of other classes too and they would go in the dumpster if you don't compensate. Now stop dodging the point, and give me specific details on how and where you would buff thieves to compensate stealth removal/nerfs.

Go on, I'll wait while you do your best to get creative.

Sure specifically, mesmer should get better access to force revealed on thief or thief should be more counterable by Mirage and other classes that lack it. So you could buff them with more revealed or you could nerf stealth either would work. which is what Im suggesting. Its super simple to comprehend unless you are a thief who relies so heavily on stealth in ones build that you cannot function I think people who cant make thief work without stealth suck at thief.

I'm unsure how you think a class relying on a core aspect of that class's gameplay (stealth for thief in this case) is some sort of crutch.

"Guardians rely on blocks, boons, and invulnerability sooooo much, we should reduce their access to those things and teach those players a lesson!"

None of those things are comparable to stealth. That is a totally invalid equivalency. Here is why stealth causes detarget and allows the thief to choose when and how to stay in the fight or not. Block, Boons, Invuln on the other hand NONE of them provides a detarget or stops attacks in a way that allow them to just leave the fight without the oppoent following them. Only stealth can do that and perm stealth is kitten kitten

"Stealth allows a thief to choose when and how to stay in a fight or not"

So do things like: Invulnerability, Stun breaks, blocks, dodges, evades, aegis, etc.

Let's entertain you for a moment. Let's remove stealth from the game altogether, because dropping a target is such a problem for you (we'll ignore the fact of how easy it is to retarget someone when they come out of stealth). What do you propose we give thieves to make up for the loss of their class mechanic that allows to compete at all with other classes in the role of roamer?

Are you suggesting more mobility? Because that might not fix the issue of them leaving fights without you being able to follow.More evades? You'll just be back here complaining about thieves you can't hit even though you can still target them now.Invulns? Not very original nor active in terms of defense, not very thematic with thieves either.

Tell me what you want man.

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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

Posted
Posted

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

He's not the only person in this thread who has used examples of rarely used traits/skills as examples of why thief needs to be gutted. There was a video linked of a thief who put up a shadow refuge before going down and ended up in stealth for an eternity. When was the last time any decent thief used shadow refuge? That utility sitting no your skill bar is soooooo 2015.

Daredevil has 30% physical damage reduction , while DE have range+damageMake it so stealth behaves like other games . And both specs can use teleport skills such as Shadowstep or Death's Retreat , to avoid combat . If so reduce those cost to 3 , or cd to 10:)

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

How do you know that ?

How do I know what? Which specs were overnerfed and don't see use? Or what is available to every class?...how do you NOT know that?

Are you like Ownen, there thief dont use stealth ?:P

Yes, I pretended thief doesn't use evades, this is exactly what I wrote, good job. :)Are you, by any chance, one of those people that instantly pm any thief that uses SINGLE stealth stack during a fight that they play "broken permastealth class"?

I am like you , i enjoy cercullar comments:)

I enjoy your inability to spell the word circular.

If you want stealth to be the same as other games why don't you... play those other games instead?

Why not nerf stealth and reduce the cost of s/d spells ?More survibility for thieves

Oh so you want every thief to be forced into s/d? What a boring, horrendous mentality to have.

Use 1 weapon for damage , use another for defenseShould we gut even more the teleport of the Shortbow ? Will it force people to use other weapons ?

As a thief who doesn't use shortbow now, or s/d, I'm failing to understand your argument here. Are you suggesting I should be using shortbow right now as my means of defense? Why are you so dead set on wanting thieves to be forced into s/d, shortbow builds?

You said , that if people want something nerfed , then they give a copensation .More active VISIBLE defense , is better for the thief

Invisible isn't invincible. Just because you can't see the thief doesn't mean you can't put him in the dumpster. Competent players understand they should save defensive utilities for the hardest hitting attacks from a thief, which come from stealth.

The reason stealth is so punishing via the thief class as a whole is because it punishes people who can't remain calm from the pressure that comes from an opponent entering and exiting stealth. Players with slower reaction times and who are tilted easily mentally always perform poorly against rogue classes in every game.

For some reason, I'm guessing players like you, even if you could see a thief evading all of your skills, would still lose those fights and end up coming right back here to ask for thieves to lose those same evade frames anyway. Thieves could be nerfed straight into the grave and you all would still want to take more from them. It's cool, I get it.

Edit: So if your compensation is more visible defense, what's your compensation for removing stealth attacks? Where's my offensive compensation too? Get real.

If by nerfing stealth means that Thief will go in the dumpster . Then it mean that stealth is overpowered and should get conpesation elsewhere :PIf s/d becomes problematic , we increase its cost/or reduce the damage if you stay longer than 10 sec . While for the first 10 sec is versa

You nerf core aspects of other classes too and they would go in the dumpster if you don't compensate. Now stop dodging the point, and give me specific details on how and where you would buff thieves to compensate stealth removal/nerfs.

Go on, I'll wait while you do your best to get creative.

If you get found out , while stealth , you remain self transparrent , that allow you to land Backstab and the trait that offer 33% damage rduction while stealthAnd the traits remove cond while Stealth remains active :P

What is your proposal for active defenses ?: Go on, I'll wait while you do your best to get creative.

Is that... is that really your suggestion? So you don't have any actual compensation to damage or other ideas to give more defensive options to replace stealth? I'm assuming by transparent you're suggesting that a thief would have access to all the benefits of stealth, except for invisibility (dropping target). You know what, what do you even mean by found out? Like if I were to be hit by some random aoe spam that you throw all over the place you can see me now? What a horrible idea, if that's the case.

Also, I don't have to suggest anything, I'm not the one arguing for changes. Learn how to debate.

Your position: These things need to be changed:My position: I think they're fine as is, but if you changed them, what would you compensate them with.

Learn logic, please.

Then keep the permastealth, just like that exist in other games ,and bring other games backfire also ,like destealth and slow speed in stealth :P

Once again, if you want systems that are in place in other games, play those games, where those systems exist with the context of balance in those games.

This is Guild Wars 2. Stick the context of Guild Wars 2.

And this threads exist ,because stealth is problematic :)And othe games have found a way to counter-blanace it

Oh, really? Other games don't have players complaining about their respective rogue classes? Cool.Stealth is problematic to players who are too slow to deal with it, yeah. I'm not in favor of balancing that rewards average to below average players. If good players can use systems to their full extent, that doesn't mean they need to be nerfed. It means they're better than you.

What class do you main, btw? I'm curious.

You sound 100% like you get carried by stealth.

You sound 100% like a player who just started playing in the past few years and never learned how to fight a thief.

Go try countering thief with mirage

You're operating under the false assumption that every class and build should be able to fight, with ease, every other class and build. As Mirage struggles against Thief, Thief struggles against other builds and classes. Just because YOUR class and build can't measure up, doesn't mean another can't.

This is fallacious reasoning, get it out of this argument.

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

He's not the only person in this thread who has used examples of rarely used traits/skills as examples of why thief needs to be gutted. There was a video linked of a thief who put up a shadow refuge before going down and ended up in stealth for an eternity. When was the last time any decent thief used shadow refuge? That utility sitting no your skill bar is soooooo 2015.

Daredevil has 30% physical damage reduction , while DE have range+damageMake it so stealth behaves like other games . And both specs can use teleport skills such as Shadowstep or Death's Retreat , to avoid combat . If so reduce those cost to 3 , or cd to 10:)

@"Junkpile.7439" said:Problem is that you need passive healing against thief. If your all heal comes from healing skill thief just poke you from stealth until you die or you get some lucky crit that thief fail to dodge. They rarely fail to dodge because they seems to spam evade too like no tomorrow.

2 whole evades on De , Much wow.

Lets make it , so they dont benefit from :

Acrobatics btwVigor class specific buff btwClass specific food effect I guess too btw

What is this post even supposed to be? :no_mouth:

Someone said , that thief can dodge spammWhile the other , say it has 2 dodges .I link the things use for the dodge spammWhat is the purpose of our conversation ? :no_mouth:

You've linked a trait from spec that sees less use than the Warrior's Defense line and 2 things that are available to every class. Your response made no sense.

How do you know that ?

How do I know what? Which specs were overnerfed and don't see use? Or what is available to every class?...how do you NOT know that?

Are you like Ownen, there thief dont use stealth ?:P

Yes, I pretended thief doesn't use evades, this is exactly what I wrote, good job. :)Are you, by any chance, one of those people that instantly pm any thief that uses SINGLE stealth stack during a fight that they play "broken permastealth class"?

I am like you , i enjoy cercullar comments:)

I enjoy your inability to spell the word circular.

If you want stealth to be the same as other games why don't you... play those other games instead?

Why not nerf stealth and reduce the cost of s/d spells ?More survibility for thieves

Oh so you want every thief to be forced into s/d? What a boring, horrendous mentality to have.

Use 1 weapon for damage , use another for defenseShould we gut even more the teleport of the Shortbow ? Will it force people to use other weapons ?

As a thief who doesn't use shortbow now, or s/d, I'm failing to understand your argument here. Are you suggesting I should be using shortbow right now as my means of defense? Why are you so dead set on wanting thieves to be forced into s/d, shortbow builds?

You said , that if people want something nerfed , then they give a copensation .More active VISIBLE defense , is better for the thief

Invisible isn't invincible. Just because you can't see the thief doesn't mean you can't put him in the dumpster. Competent players understand they should save defensive utilities for the hardest hitting attacks from a thief, which come from stealth.

The reason stealth is so punishing via the thief class as a whole is because it punishes people who can't remain calm from the pressure that comes from an opponent entering and exiting stealth. Players with slower reaction times and who are tilted easily mentally always perform poorly against rogue classes in every game.

For some reason, I'm guessing players like you, even if you could see a thief evading all of your skills, would still lose those fights and end up coming right back here to ask for thieves to lose those same evade frames anyway. Thieves could be nerfed straight into the grave and you all would still want to take more from them. It's cool, I get it.

Edit: So if your compensation is more visible defense, what's your compensation for removing stealth attacks? Where's my offensive compensation too? Get real.

If by nerfing stealth means that Thief will go in the dumpster . Then it mean that stealth is overpowered and should get conpesation elsewhere :PIf s/d becomes problematic , we increase its cost/or reduce the damage if you stay longer than 10 sec . While for the first 10 sec is versa

You nerf core aspects of other classes too and they would go in the dumpster if you don't compensate. Now stop dodging the point, and give me specific details on how and where you would buff thieves to compensate stealth removal/nerfs.

Go on, I'll wait while you do your best to get creative.

If you get found out , while stealth , you remain self transparrent , that allow you to land Backstab and the trait that offer 33% damage rduction while stealthAnd the traits remove cond while Stealth remains active :P

What is your proposal for active defenses ?: Go on, I'll wait while you do your best to get creative.

Is that... is that really your suggestion? So you don't have any actual compensation to damage or other ideas to give more defensive options to replace stealth? I'm assuming by transparent you're suggesting that a thief would have access to all the benefits of stealth, except for invisibility (dropping target). You know what, what do you even mean by found out? Like if I were to be hit by some random aoe spam that you throw all over the place you can see me now? What a horrible idea, if that's the case.

Also, I don't have to suggest anything, I'm not the one arguing for changes. Learn how to debate.

Your position: These things need to be changed:My position: I think they're fine as is, but if you changed them, what would you compensate them with.

Learn logic, please.

Then keep the permastealth, just like that exist in other games ,and bring other games backfire also ,like destealth and slow speed in stealth :P

Once again, if you want systems that are in place in other games, play those games, where those systems exist with the context of balance in those games.

This is Guild Wars 2. Stick the context of Guild Wars 2.

And this threads exist ,because stealth is problematic :)And othe games have found a way to counter-blanace it

Oh, really? Other games don't have players complaining about their respective rogue classes? Cool.Stealth is problematic to players who are too slow to deal with it, yeah. I'm not in favor of balancing that rewards average to below average players. If good players can use systems to their full extent, that doesn't mean they need to be nerfed. It means they're better than you.

What class do you main, btw? I'm curious.

You sound 100% like you get carried by stealth.

You sound 100% like a player who just started playing in the past few years and never learned how to fight a thief.

Go try countering thief with mirage

You're operating under the false assumption that every class and build should be able to fight, with ease, every other class and build. As Mirage struggles against Thief, Thief struggles against other builds and classes. Just because YOUR class and build can't measure up, doesn't mean another can't.

This is fallacious reasoning, get it out of this argument.

Not sure how new to the game you are, however, Thief and Mirage are supposed to be hard counters of one another. So yea I do expect it should be able to deal with thief better cause Mirage tends to be a free kill for a good thief at present.

This... doesn't make sense. Two things can't be a hard counter to each other, that's not how the definition of that term works. If something is a "hard counter" the thing it "hard counters" should have little to no chance against it. If Thief hard counters Mirage, Mirage can't hard counter thief, that's not how it works.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:How would you go about getting rid of it without getting rid of thief too? The less complicated the better. The less band aid the better.

Thief doesnt NEED perm stealth to be viable that is flat out absurd. Next I would suggest what thief is lacking is becoming revealed, also they shouldnt have skills to just remove revealed that seems totally wrong. Also every class should have decent access to cause revealed. Otherwise, yes Thief has too much stealth and with less stealth it would be ok to give thief other things like easier access to damage or defenses. You know balance that works in within the confines of the limitations of the other respective classes.

So you said his question is absurd and then immediately agreed that with less stealth "it would be ok to compensate with easier access to damage or defenses", but still didn't come up with anything more detailed, so in the end you dodged the question entirely anyways?Pretty weird as a response to
that particular comment
.

No lol you guys are so defensive its hilarious.(...)I think my view makes allot more sense than yours

Strong delusions, but you do you, buddy :)

...you also still missed the main point of my post as well as your initial post. Not even sure what you're answering to right now tbh, but I sure have a lot of reasons to be SUPER DEFENSIVE about someone else's post.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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Posted

Waaait, I knew I remembered this nickname from somewhere.

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:How would you go about getting rid of it without getting rid of thief too? The less complicated the better. The less band aid the better.

Thief doesnt NEED perm stealth to be viable that is flat out absurd. Next I would suggest what thief is lacking is becoming revealed, also they shouldnt have skills to just remove revealed that seems totally wrong. Also every class should have decent access to cause revealed. Otherwise, yes Thief has too much stealth and with less stealth it would be ok to give thief other things like easier access to damage or defenses. You know balance that works in within the confines of the limitations of the other respective classes.

So you said his question is absurd and then immediately agreed that with less stealth "it would be ok to compensate with easier access to damage or defenses", but still didn't come up with anything more detailed, so in the end you dodged the question entirely anyways?Pretty weird as a response to
that particular comment
.

and btw I dont have a large vested interest in this cause I dont roam as much as I used to.

Yes, you don't have a large vested interest, because you didn't already come up with some fake excuses in the past (clearly SO not interested in that whole roaming thing that you... brought up WvW roaming vid in PvP subforum) and then dropped the thread when proven wrong with some random get-away backhanded comment about how "it doesn't matter what I write, you'll continue to whine", despite me not "whining", but just responding to the BS you came up with. :D

It's kind of a long (and mostly worthless) read if anyone would want to go through all @Moradorin.6217 great responses which were literally repeatedly... "you smoke crack!", but if anyone's interested in his pseudo arguments and hilarious mental gymnastics then here they are:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1399891/#Comment_1399891

It's hard to pick the favorite one between all those psuedo-points he made in that thread with bringing up HIGHER WVW RANK of thief (same thief that LOST the fight, so not sure what it was supposed to show xd) as something meaningful, but I think I'd go with this one:"4) the thief instigated the fight from stealth ambush on a trailblazer Mirage which the thief's mistake if anyone's."

Basically thief is so broken that his mistake was... engaging on trailblazer mirage. :lol:

Yeee, I guess I was correct about the delusions. Again. So have fun with this thread, lmao

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kash.9213

kash.9213

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@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities. the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

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Skada.1362

Skada.1362

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@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities. the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Try running with the zergs as a thief and see how fun and engaging it is. You just want to make thief useless for every single role it could play in WvW because you get tossed in the dumpster by them.

i am a thief main believe it or not. and we wont be useless at all if shadow arts gets nerfed. staff daredevil is fine for large scale, maybe you should just l2dodge?

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Skada.1362

Skada.1362

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@kash.9213 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

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saerni.2584

saerni.2584

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@Moradorin.6217 said:BTW the lack of veteran thief posts in this thead I can only guess is an indication that a) this is an and arguably dead horse topic and b) they dont want to make the thread bigger cause they know that might lead to more nerfs to thief.

Nah @godz raiden.2631 is pretty correct. Decent logic skills as well (far as argument goes). It's been an amusing thread but pretty much rehashes the same poor reasoning of the last 100 threads.

-Me a thief vet who played since launch.

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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities. the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Try running with the zergs as a thief and see how fun and engaging it is. You just want to make thief useless for every single role it could play in WvW because you get tossed in the dumpster by them.

i am a thief main believe it or not. and we wont be useless at all if shadow arts gets nerfed. staff daredevil is fine for large scale, maybe you should just l2dodge?

Lmao you're right, I would love for my class and playstyle to be gutted so I'm forced to place staff daredevil and just dodge through everything while bringing next to nothing compared to other classes for the same style of combat. If you're bringing staff daredevil to large scale fights, you're being useless. And if you think otherwise, ask any commander if they would prefer you to bring your staff daredevil or literally any other class. (If they say bring the daredevil, they're clueless btw).

I know how to dodge just fine, the point is thief shouldn't lose the ability to be a strong roamer just because people like you are whiny babies. Whether you play thief or not doesn't matter, the fact that you think it would be fine to relegate the class to "staff daredevil" says all we need to know about your thought process. And it isn't good.

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godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

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@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

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Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Moradorin.6217 said:BTW the lack of veteran thief posts in this thead I can only guess is an indication that a) this is an and arguably dead horse topic and b) they dont want to make the thread bigger cause they know that might lead to more nerfs to thief.

Plenty of veteran thieves have commented, they just aren't interested in sticking around for this merry go round of an argument once they've said their piece. It's the same bad suggestions from people who don't know what they're talking about every time this topic comes up.

Also, to address something you said earlier, I would have no problem with Mirage having the second dodge. The issue I have with Mirage is the fact that you can dodge while CC'd which makes punishing a good Mirage extremely difficult. Make it so Mirage can't evade while hard CC'd so getting stunned is punishable, and you can have the second dodge back no questions asked.

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godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

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@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

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TrollingDemigod.3041

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities. the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Try running with the zergs as a thief and see how fun and engaging it is. You just want to make thief useless for every single role it could play in WvW because you get tossed in the dumpster by them.

i am a thief main believe it or not. and we wont be useless at all if shadow arts gets nerfed. staff daredevil is fine for large scale, maybe you should just l2dodge?

Honestly, even if A-net has decided to fully delete stealth from game, teefs would still be broken because of evades, it's one or another. Additionally because of ini system the weapon skills will never be properly balanced either.Whatever though, looking how A-net refuses to delete such bs mechanics or even nerf them to acceptable levels just shows that EoD will be last nail in the coffin for PvP and WvW.

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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Oh, well darn, you said gg /thread, guess you won this debate.

And yeah, you caught me. I'm just one of those "ez mode" players. I only win 1v3 fights regularly because my class is broken, not because 90% of the WvW player base is absolute hot garbage.

I'm honestly not going to even entertain the rest of your post. The fact that you think any sort of balancing should be done with stolen skills from ambient creatures in mind is honestly ridiculous. Also, you seem to be suggested nerfing SA and pushing DA on every thief. Wow, how great of an idea, destroying another thief Trait line and making another mandatory. Typical thief balance tbh. RIP Acrobatics, you were fun while you lasted.

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godz raiden.2631

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@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities. the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Try running with the zergs as a thief and see how fun and engaging it is. You just want to make thief useless for every single role it could play in WvW because you get tossed in the dumpster by them.

i am a thief main believe it or not. and we wont be useless at all if shadow arts gets nerfed. staff daredevil is fine for large scale, maybe you should just l2dodge?

Honestly, even if A-net has decided to fully delete stealth from game, teefs would still be broken because of evades, it's one or another. Additionally because of ini system the weapon skills will never be properly balanced either.Whatever though, looking how A-net refuses to delete such bs mechanics or even nerf them to acceptable levels just shows that EoD will be last nail in the coffin for PvP and WvW.

Not sure if you're trolling or not as your name suggests. But you know what, I agree. Let's remove the BS mechanic of stealth, and then let's remove thief access to about half of the evades they currently have. I'm sure they'll be a competitive class then! It's not like they're relegated to specific roles in every game mode right now, everyone and their mother plays thief for all PvE, PvP, and WvW content!

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Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

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Skada.1362

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

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Skada.1362

Skada.1362

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@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

I'm not complaining that OP brought up PVP balance, i just pointed out that this is a wvw thread, in the wvw forum, discussing wvw balance, specifically permanent stealth which shadow arts (SA) is responsible for along with the d/p weapon set. The title of the thread is named "perm stealth" just to be clear.

"People like me" you mean thief mains with over 9k hours roaming around? Which me and most of my guildies are. As far as large scale fights go, i can literally use any thief build in game and have fun and drop people, it dont matter if its core s/d or a "proper" staff daredevil build. Sucks to hear that you feel useless in those scenarios. Keep defending one of the games most oppressive and disliked builds, just know that I know why you do it ;).Not only does shadow arts bring a real shit experience for a ton of players it also carries wayyyy to hard and hardly punishes SA thieves for bad plays. Hell you dont even have to land steal/swipe to still get massive value (3 sec stealth omegalul).

It will be interesting to see who the real thief mains are after SA (hopefully) gets nerfed. It's time to get rid of the training wheels.

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Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

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@Skada.1362 said:so is the overall defense and utilities.the thieves in this thread just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible.try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.Most thieves do play other classes. But feel free to stick to double standards.

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godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

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@Skada.1362 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.
the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible
. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

I'm not complaining that OP brought up PVP balance, i just pointed out that this is a wvw thread, in the wvw forum, discussing wvw balance, specifically permanent stealth which shadow arts (SA) is responsible for along with the d/p weapon set. The title of the thread is named "perm stealth" just to be clear.

"People like me" you mean thief mains with over 9k hours roaming around? Which me and most of my guildies are. As far as large scale fights go, i can literally use any thief build in game and have fun and drop people, it dont matter if its core s/d or a "proper" staff daredevil build. Sucks to hear that you feel useless in those scenarios. Keep defending one of the games most oppressive and disliked builds, just know that I know why you do it ;).Not only does shadow arts bring a real kitten experience for a ton of players it also carries wayyyy to hard and hardly punishes SA thieves for bad plays. Hell you dont even have to land steal/swipe to still get massive value (3 sec stealth omegalul).

It will be interesting to see who the real thief mains are after SA (hopefully) gets nerfed. It's time to get rid of the training wheels.

Well my bad, I didn't mean to assume that you weren't a thief main with over 9k hours roaming. That's roaming... solo? Right? Not with those guildies of yours?

I'm gonna be honest, if Anet decides to nerf SA, that's fine. I'm still going to play thief and try all sorts of different builds, like I do now. But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it. It comes down to a skill issue. Bad players are gonna lose 100% of their fights against a competent thief, and competent players are going put up a good fight and beat competent thieves.

Oh btw, I really don't care about your boast of 9k hours. I know plenty of players who have played just as long as that, if not longer, who are absolutely terrible. Hours played does not equate to game knowledge or skill. Every player has different floors and ceilings. I would even go so far as to say that most players have a low floor, and a low ceiling, and that they plateau in a pretty bad spot skill wise. But the problem can't possibly be a personal skill related issue. It's gotta be that one class that's ruining the game for everyone!

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