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I've legit never even thought about the claim buff this much. I think the best argument here is 1v1s around keeps but since the game mode will never be balanced around small scale or 1v1s, its kind of moot. I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.

If this suggestion was something like limiting claim buff to inside objectives only OR maybe claim buff only for held parts of the objective, break into outer, claim buff moves to only inner. But blanket "I don't like it because of how I play so delete it" is a nah from me.

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@Threather.9354 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

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@Threather.9354 said:Only thing Claim buff is doing is catering to players that wanna play random pewpew builds, everyone else has less fights and fun.

Do note that anet employees stopped enjoying WvW with HoT too.

If we were being honest. The only group the claim buff is catering to is off-hours defenders that need every advantage they can get vs groups that run in those time zones. Like, we can't pretend that there wasn't years and years of people whining about all their hard earned stuff being flipped during non-prime time hours. If anything has encouraged players to not want to fight in objectives, it's the fact that flipping objectives and winning matchups just gets you put into match ups against servers with better coverage.

Which is its own negative feedback loop with virtually no solution if ANet sticks with server vs server as it is now. There is no solution to being put into a match up where you're the weakest server and all your players don't even want to play anymore because you're being spawn camped. Which was something that would happen quite a bit even pre-HoT.

Also, HoT brought with it some of what are still the most unbalanced specs in the game. On top of adding minstrels to the game. Which mind you, even if you combined multiple 3-stat sets, you still wouldn't reach the total stats of minstrels because 4 stat sets naturally have higher totals. On top of that it's much easier to convince randoms to make full minstrels than it would be to convince them to make mix & match pieces of armor & trinkets.

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@"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:After reading the topic and your comments, I'm kinda amused, I've seen a lot excuses like "omg i'm lagging, you won by luck, you cheat, etc." but it's first time I'm seeing someone complain about buff claim, which is still worthless in long run. (You can complain about players that use food as well, going by your logic though)There is a lot of places which that buff doesn't apply, so you can do your "hehe skillful 1v1" or "my guild is better" there, no one stopping you from going into Obsidian Sanctum either.What killed WvW was powercreep via e-speces, which started to bleed players even faster, but the real killer was "lack of content and purpose". I mean, what's the point of "attacking" enemy objectives if enemy will hide behind walls and sit on AC whole day even if they have that "OP BROKEN STATZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ" with the same numbers as enemy? WvW is almost the same since 2012 with few changes here and there, beside that it's the same kitten thing for almost 9 years now, how do you want people to keep playing, for what reason they should invest time? Even Mario Bros become boring after certain amount of time.Your argument would be valid only if balance was much better, but you know what? You still can get 1-shot in your own territory if enemy RNG rolls are better than your luck, welcome in reality.

Sry cant Make long answer cuz on phone.

But food buffs are strong indeed but both sides should have them simultanously and they dont swing sides. So its completely different topic. Not using them is not system fault, it is player fault.

I have yet to see anyone prove that it isnt 17% difference in dmg and 21% survivability or comment that is acceptable in any competitive game. So it is hard for me to take anyone that only thinks, doesnt prove, that their opinion is correct seriously.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

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@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:Only thing Claim buff is doing is catering to players that wanna play random pewpew builds, everyone else has less fights and fun.

Do note that anet employees stopped enjoying WvW with HoT too.

If we were being honest. The only group the claim buff is catering to is off-hours defenders that need every advantage they can get vs groups that run in those time zones. Like, we can't pretend that there wasn't years and years of people whining about all their hard earned stuff being flipped during non-prime time hours. If anything has encouraged players to not want to fight in objectives, it's the fact that flipping objectives and winning matchups just gets you put into match ups against servers with better coverage.

True. They sacrificed any equal numbered fights in order to cater to minoritys fun. Then majority got smaller and smaller as they had less fun and no possibility to get real fights during sieges. So now no1 is fighting for or in objectives anymore making even those "criers" quit the game because no action.

I understand introducing overpowered stuff in expansions so they sell better but youre supposed to nerf them heavily after. Claim buff nerfs are long overdue

Funnily they nerfed siege vs siege damage and wall/gate health heavily while adding +10 with HoT making outnumbered defending much harder. So actually Wvw is just worse place for even those outnumbered defenders

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@"Zikory.6871" said:I've legit never even thought about the claim buff this much. I think the best argument here is 1v1s around keeps but since the game mode will never be balanced around small scale or 1v1s, its kind of moot. I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.

If this suggestion was something like limiting claim buff to inside objectives only OR maybe claim buff only for held parts of the objective, break into outer, claim buff moves to only inner. But blanket "I don't like it because of how I play so delete it" is a nah from me.

Its 17% damage and 21% survivability difference fighting between friendly and enemy claim buff.

Unfortunately I cant see how that is minor in any scale. You are of course welcome to prove it by doing a guild Raid without runes and sigils winning against same guilds as before. See how ridiculous you guys sound like?

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@Threather.9354 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

Why would you add them together?

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

Why would you add them together?

Because youre fighting at either 90% of the time. So thats how it feels like in reality. So you attack or enemy attacks

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@Threather.9354 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

Why would you add them together?

Because youre fighting at either 90% of the time. So thats how it feels like in reality. So you attack or enemy attacksUh... that's still only a 400 stat advantage.

And 400 extra stats is roughly a 5% increase btw (quick calc on marauder at 7500ish stats with basic runes).

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

Why would you add them together?

That's because 136% of the time you and your opponents are attacking into reflects.

Think of those poor guards!

Also consider the Ridgeback Skale or deer that will get cleaved on the fights by players of both sides about 614.26% of the time.

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@Threather.9354 said:

@"Zikory.6871" said:I've legit never even thought about the claim buff this much. I think the best argument here is 1v1s around keeps but since the game mode will never be balanced around small scale or 1v1s, its kind of moot. I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.

If this suggestion was something like limiting claim buff to inside objectives only OR maybe claim buff only for held parts of the objective, break into outer, claim buff moves to only inner. But blanket "I don't like it because of how I play so delete it" is a nah from me.

Its 17% damage and 21% survivability difference fighting between friendly and enemy claim buff.

Unfortunately I cant see how that is minor in any scale. You are of course welcome to prove it by doing a guild Raid without runes and sigils winning against same guilds as before. See how ridiculous you guys sound like?

Power 100 - ~3 stacks of might - 100 power is pretty nice for damage classes, worthless for support.Precision 100 - ~4% crit - 4% crit is virtually worthless if your damage spike relies on fury and worthless to support. Imagine making a build with bl or claim buff in mind.Toughness 100 - less than 5% DR - Not going to save a damage class and a joke to minstrel classes.Vitality 100 - 1000 HP - Ridiculously broken /s

Our guild rallies spend a majority of our time in and around enemy objectives to force fights. So your suggestion to prove you are right is to continue to fight people with the claim buff AND also remove our runes and sigils? How does that make sense?

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@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

How does that make sense?Are the 17 and 21% numbers based off of wearing full blue gear?

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

What.

Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

?? I don't comprende.

You don't get the enemy buff do you?

Screenshot pls of +200 to all stats when not affected by Presence of the Keep.

Actually someone else please explain it in layman's terms.

At your objective you have 400 stats. At Enemy objective they have 400 stats but you dont. Add those together and it becomes 800

Why would you add them together?

Because youre fighting at either 90% of the time. So thats how it feels like in reality. So you attack or enemy attacksUh... that's still only a 400 stat advantage.

And 400 extra stats is roughly a 5% increase btw (quick calc on marauder at 7500ish stats with basic runes).

Power: 2500 power -> 100 power 4% damage increase (less for power builds with might but minstrel builds make up for it)Precision: little less, like 3.7%?-> Around 8% extra damageAnd then survivability100 vitality -> 1000 health => ~5% more health100 toughness -> About same-> Around 10% more survivability

So 1 claim buff can already be considered at least 18% damage or 18% survivability whichever you find weaker. This is comparable to full rune set.

Then since claim buffs swap owners or double at keeps, in reality it becomes around 18-21% damage diff AND 18-21% survivability diff however you wanna calculate it.

Unfortunately you have to fight math with math. 2 apples don't become 1 by you magically thinking it is so.

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@Zikory.6871 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:I've legit never even thought about the claim buff this much. I think the best argument here is 1v1s around keeps but since the game mode will never be balanced around small scale or 1v1s, its kind of moot. I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.

If this suggestion was something like limiting claim buff to inside objectives only OR maybe claim buff only for held parts of the objective, break into outer, claim buff moves to only inner. But blanket "I don't like it because of how I play so delete it" is a nah from me.

Its 17% damage and 21% survivability difference fighting between friendly and enemy claim buff.

Unfortunately I cant see how that is minor in any scale. You are of course welcome to prove it by doing a guild Raid without runes and sigils winning against same guilds as before. See how ridiculous you guys sound like?

Power 100 - ~3 stacks of might - 100 power is pretty nice for damage classes, worthless for support.Precision 100 - ~4% crit - 4% crit is virtually worthless if your damage spike relies on fury and worthless to support. Imagine making a build with bl or claim buff in mind.Toughness 100 - less than 5% DR - Not going to save a damage class and a joke to minstrel classes.Vitality 100 - 1000 HP - Ridiculously broken /s

Our guild rallies spend a majority of our time in and around enemy objectives to force fights. So your suggestion to prove you are right is to continue to fight people with the claim buff AND also remove our runes and sigils? How does that make sense?

You said following

I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.But the stats are literally worth 1 runeset?And since claim buffs swap owners, you can take sigils off too.

If the stat amount from claim buff is truly irrelevant, you should be able to win almost the same amount of fights without runes and sigils as it is the same amount as what claim buff is causing currently.

But somehow runes and sigils are not irrelevant but claim buffs are? Even though it is literally the same effect? Please, do understand that claim buff is not ignorable amount of stats and is the thing that is causing the bunkering meta and killing long term fights.

I just don't get why you guys can't understand what toll ~20% damage and ~20% survivability swing even on open field causes in forms of bandvagoning, long term fights, objective sieging, willingness to open tag, bunkering, habits, pug builds, etc. Commanders literally quit in droves during both HoT and PoF, both, stop blaming the meta about it being boring. Claim buff just killed the only other fun thing you can do when there are no open field fights against near equally strong opponent: objective fights. Guilds used to raid inside keeps and towers 90% of the time, now they do it like 10% of the time to test the waters and then avoid the towers/keeps rest of the night.

Anyways, I struggle to see any way the claim buff makes the gamemode better to play. Less fights, open tags and overpopulated servers filled with clouding builds that only work defending. They should rework it to noncombat stats, period. If you're heavily outnumbered, what you need is stronger walls and siege, not some stats.

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@"Threather.9354" said:I just don't get why you guys can't understand what toll ~20% damage and ~20% survivability swing even on open field causes in forms of bandvagoning, long term fights, objective sieging, willingness to open tag, bunkering, habits, pug builds, etc.Oh, we get that.

Its just that your magical percentages doesnt exist because thats not really how damage and "survivability" work.

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I guess this is how the numbers are being given.

Assuming you have 200% crit damage, 4% more crit means that 4% more of your hits are double damage. (funny enough most of my builds are like this and lack might) That's.... 4 more % assuming you have 200% crit damage, which many people aren't.

If someone has 2500 power, 50% crit, and 200% crit damage, you would expect half their strikes to hit at 2500 power, and half their strikes to hit at 5000 power. This would average out to be 3750 power.

Ex: Over 100 hits, it would be ((2500 50)+(5000 50))/100 = 3750

If that same someone has the buff, they have 2600 power, 54% crit, and 200% crit damage, you would expect 46% of hits to be at 2600 power, and 54% of hits to be at 5200 power

((2600 46)+(5200 54))/100 =4004

4004-3750= 254 difference254/3750 ~6.7% (this a'int 20% even if we assume presence of the keep.)

I guess you could have like all ferocity and lack power/precision (cavalier?) but those are really silly stats

However, you should know people can generate might and fury which devalues the 100 power a bit, and some popular builds crit cap, so the crit doesn't actually help. I guess you could reduce your precision but gearing with the claim buff in mind is pretty absurd.

And this certainly doesn't really apply to condi builds.

Defense is much harder to figure out because the 10% is true only when all your damage is direct and in roaming this is probably not true. Also how many of you are running giant doorstops to take hits, and just allowing your hp to deplete? You need to heal and sustain unless you're a glass cannon and the claim buff doesn't give more healing power and concentration not to mention healing power doesn't scale exactly like that. This means your effective heals are not keeping up with the extra "damage" pool. Not to mention the strongest form of damage mitigation-- the dodge-- remains constant.

For the most part, vitality and toughness are your buffer to survive bursts and basic incidental damage in crowds and aren't anything close to the big picture. I'd like to point out that 4% more toughness probably doesn't help me when I get for 15k, for example.

All this theory only works if we're standing next to each other autoattacking, facetanking each other, and not healing, for the most part. I mean it's not without use, but overly simplified. (I do take it into account when theorcrafting, but as it turns out stuff on paper does not work that way always.

Honestly the biggest "buff" you can get is a better ISP. xD

tl;dr According to these made up numbers, you have a 12% edge in Chinese gvgs

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i mean the keep buff (presence of keep tactics) alone is 400 stats as it doubles the guild aura... so yeah, kinda 800 stats. (400*2 if keep + guild = yes). if guild = yes but presence of the keep = no, it is 400.

the bloodlust buff gives another 6* 30/50/60 (minor major superior)... not a lot but this should get removed either way imo. ruins are pointless to be existing. (one of the very few things where a full cut would be valid imo... or re-modeling it into sth like "own all keeps and 2/4 towers on respective borderland)

food (even more ascended food since -10% dmg) and full ascended gear as well as correct builds can add up even more... i'm not a maths fetishist but u don't need to do the maths really to see this.

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@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:i mean the keep buff (presence of keep tactics) alone is 400 stats as it doubles the guild aura... so yeah, kinda 800 stats. (400*2 if keep + guild = yes). if guild = yes but presence of the keep = no, it is 400.

the bloodlust buff gives another 6* 30/50/60 (minor major superior)... not a lot but this should get removed either way imo. ruins are pointless to be existing. (one of the very few things where a full cut would be valid imo... or re-modeling it into sth like "own all keeps and 2/4 towers on respective borderland)

food (even more ascended food since -10% dmg) and full ascended gear as well as correct builds can add up even more... i'm not a maths fetishist but u don't need to do the maths really to see this.

You also only have to hang out around any of the usual lanes and watch sides push and drag.

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that's what i critize always with "pointless skirmishing". people do this for days, to fish for cheap ganks around those lanes. that's what blocks out big space EBG sometimes for hours. its usually push-gank-panic and then this repeats from the other side. anyone who played Wvw for more than few months should honestly find this boring. u get only 400 of the keep stats there i think tho, presence of the keep for the full 800 defender stats only triggers when u are directly around it or inside it.

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nobody seriously tries to fight 1v30 tho. before the dmg nerfs, we won 3v15 few times and often 15/20v40/50 tho. stats can help with that.

then again, especially largescale doesn't appreciate extrastats on one side. of course, ganking always works. u could even win a 30v1 naked, i guess. (ok, notsure if you, but most players could)

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@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:WSR (if u mean the guilds of it) is about the last that would really do that, unless they are only 15/20 vs 40/50 of yours. even good groups have a numbercap. don't expect small group to tank five times their numbers of clouders... that's just odd.

In the last year we had like 20 weeks against people from WSR (Kill, Layz, Fairy f.e) and most fights in EBG, even same numbers, are like that. WSR likes to fight in their claim buff and bragging when they are winning. If they lose in the enemy claim buff the commander gets a whisper "we can only fight and win in our claim buff" :lol:

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