Adelbern's Directive

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

This is actually some very good reading, and insight from a lore prespective and general thinking/philosophy.

Thank you everyone for a worthwhile read.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Squee.7829 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Squee.7829 said:

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:...Naw I agree with Athren here. Its all from x spun narrative. If you(yall) look at cold unfeeling facts and leave your emotions at the door it might be more clear.

Look at Iraq.

Under despot:Clean waterSubsidized electicityCheap petrolInternationally accredited universitySubsidized public transportTop 5 Arab nation for gender equalityMassive social works

No political rights.

Under FEEEDOM USA:No waterNo satitation80% electricity blackoutsGas thru roofNo school. Its destroyed.No busISISStarvationReligous zealotryMore death than ever

But look we can vote!

Joko=SaddamLife is better under despot.

Fact.

War is bad, no one argues that, but let's also look at what YOU said objectively. Was it really "better" or just another flavor of bad? Let's break this down point for point, for starters:Under despot: Had clean water: I'll give you this one. There were a ton of regions that had no clean water under Sadam, but by and large it was MUCH more readily available when he was in charge.Subsidized electricity: Same as water.Cheap petrol:. Petrol was cheaper for the suppliers, but the average citizen has almost as much access to the petrol now as they did before. If anything, it's slightly more subsidized now.

No school; it's destroyed:. Absolutely 100% false. I was there. The schools were among the first things to be rebuilt and placed under guard (mostly by local leaders and police forces). Especially the Universities. Also, attendance was more or less standardized. Rich men's sons aren't the only ones attending Universities now. The classrooms are still segregated by sex, but women are attending in record high numbers since Sadam's regime took hold.

No bus: Also not true.

ISIS: another despotic rule scenario, so obviously bad. But no one is trying to argue "Well, the people who like ISIS are treated well, so it's wrong to question their sovereignty!"

Starvation: Existed during AND after Sadam. Was worse under Sadam in areas outside of city centers like Baghdad or Ramadi. And especially bad in majority Shi'ite areas, who were by and large extorted, raided, and generally got no assistance from the government.

Religious zealotry: Started with Sadam. ISIS is just continuing it.

But we can vote!: Yeah. True.

Life is better under a despot: No It was not. For a majority of the population, it was the same abusive crap. Just now the argument can be made that "At least not EVERYONE was oppressed back then! Just most people"

You keep combining the two seperate systems.Despot was saddam. Freedom is iraq in its current state. Almost 20 years later.

Despite political blah blah the bottom lime is Iraq used to be pretty ok under the despot. And absolute shit under freedom.

Without mincing words, which would you prefer, 1980s Iraq or Iraq right now? Pick one.

I really didnt want to bribg irl stuff into this but this is the best example I can draw from in comparisson.

[Squee.7829]

My point was it was definitely not "ok" under Sadam. It was far from ok. It's not really ok now, either, but saying it was better before isn't accurate either. And I wasn't mixing the systems. I just wasn't using the same format you were. I can see where that can be a little odd looking. But basically instead of making two seperate lists as you did, I was just making generalized points about how things are now compared to how they were under Sadam. (i.e,: Schools are not worse now than they were under Sadam, in fact they're slightly better. Still in a crappy part of the world and full of problems, but better)

[draxynnic.3719]

If we are going to bring the real world into it, too, one could also consider that Iraq as it currently is is still in a "recovering from upheaval" stage, where a large part of the problem is that Saddam's legacy is still playing out. For the long-term effect, you could look at, say, West Germany and Japan, which had a lot of pain in the first decade or so but worked out in the end.

Now, the previous governments of Germany and Japan were probably a lot more dangerous to the wider world than Saddam was. On the other hand, and to return to Guild Wars, Elona under Joko is probably a lot closer to the Axis powers in WW2 in terms of how much of a threat he poses to the protagonist nations than Saddam ever was to the West. Maybe peace is possible. And maybe the fate of Elona has already shown what happens when you try to live in peace with Palawa Joko as a neighbour. As far as we know, his attacks on Elona were unprovoked, and someone who launches an unprovoked invasion twice might do so again.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Squee.7829 said:My point was it was definitely not "ok" under Sadam. It was far from ok. It's not really ok now, either, but saying it was better before isn't accurate either. And I wasn't mixing the systems. I just wasn't using the same format you were. I can see where that can be a little odd looking. But basically instead of making two seperate lists as you did, I was just making generalized points about how things are now compared to how they were under Sadam. (i.e,: Schools are not worse now than they were under Sadam, in fact they're slightly better. Still in a crappy part of the world and full of problems, but better)

You didnt pick a time to live in.Just admit it. 1980s irak is sweet potats of the options.

[Squee.7829]

Maybe for a bit. And only for the Sunnis, whom were aligned with Saddam. (Despots like favoritism). There was always tension between the two groups but it only got a lot worse in the 80's. There was a slight economic recession, followed by a general upward trend. Before Sadam decided to, you know, try to brutally take over Kuwait and got sanctioned into the dirt. Also, pretty crappy thing to do. So, all in all, I'd have to say, no. 80's was just the beginning of the terrible decline of the horrible state of Iraq and it was because of a despot. But I feel like this isn't really relating enough to the main thread anymore, so to bring it back on subject; "liberating" is bad, especially in the short term, but so is letting a despot remain in power and strangle a country to death to serve his own agendas. Therefore, it's not at all weird that Kryta could not care less about Joko's claims to territory. He's A) A terrible person in many ways, (You don't get a title like "Scourge of XXX" for being nice) B ) generally seen as a cruel taskmaster, and C) already a proven threat to nations outside of Elona and therefore must be watched, if not outright removed. And putting a few little guilds on his borders is a good way to keep an eye on things. Whether Joko likes it or not.

[Pirlipat.2479]

Before everyone is debating the legitimacy of Jokos regency, the last time I was looking he was trapped in a cage somewhere in inbetween world. So technically Vabbi doesn't have a ruler at all at the moment. Maybe Joko comes back maybe not but IF he does it pretty much looks like he will be up to revenge. And we have no idea if that will be personal against us or if it will be against anyone else.

[Squee.7829]

I think the only person he'd seek revenge on is Balthazar. But he's gone now. We personally haven't done anything to him but insult him a little by not knowing who he was while we were dead. He might, however, be a little cranky about us making Kralk a good bit stronger. That seems like something that might worry Joko. ANd we kind of harassed/temporarily took over his military, but ultimately it WAS to kill the guy that imprisoned Joko in the first place, so there's no telling how that will go. I wouldn't be surprised if he recognized us as generally superior to his forces, or too powerful a nuisance (seeing as how we manhandled them into falling under our favor) and try to strike some horrible deal with us that will backfire in some terrible way in the future.

[Pirlipat.2479]

And that we took his army under disguise and didn't free him and I don't know ... killed his Archon.But what I rather wanted to say is Vabbi doesn't have a ruler atm.So the legitimacy of the despot Joko doesn't matter anymore. Not really much at least.

[Squee.7829]

Sorry. I think I ninja edited my post while you were replying. I mentioned the "harassing his army" thing. And I forgot about the Archon, which is likely a very important part of his forces. So, I cede that point. He will likely be angry about that.

But yeah, I agree. We don't even know IF Joko will be free'd or if we're just going to use his absence as a chance to ween Elona out of his rule or something. No one even seems to know Joko is missing, and as we kind of control his military, this would be a prime opportunity for Dragon's Watch to change things up without excessive force. Maybe the story will develop in that direction. Or maybe something will free Joko and give us players something else to fight for a bit.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

According, to our old friend, the no-longer Colonel Kernel, Joko's already out and directing troop movements again. A bit anti-climactic, but on the other hand, there wasn't much use in dragging it out either.

Replying to a couple earlier points:

@Squee.7829 said:

Going back to the North Korea thing, this is a nation of people that are starving, poor, oppressed, and imprisoned for the most minor infractions. They have no access to the outside world (like in Vabbi where the students are surprised when you tell them there is a world outside of Elona) and the only reason most of its population survives is through the UN's constant funneling of supplies.I'm also in the Joko-as-despot camp, but I don't think this comparison follows through. As far as we can currently tell, Elona under Joko is well fed, on a spectrum from opulently rich to still comfortably making ends meet, relatively free as long as you toe the party line, and all that without any foreign aid. It's still not a place I'd like to live, but it isn't a soul-crushing dystopia. We'll see what conditions are like elsewhere- there are lines indicating that Vabbi is much more comfortable than the rest of the country- but on the whole, I'm not expecting any clear-cut, pitch-black evil overlord nonsense when ANet's already taken pains to show that the situation is more nuanced than that.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

You don't think that the actions of those which were appointed by Palawa Joko reflect at all on Joko? You don't think that it's possible that the Scourge of Vabbi, who has a history of murdering people in order to conscript them into his undead armies, might not have intended exactly that when he said "no matter the cost"?I don't, given that Joko's appointees are so often taking different actions. The best example is probably the Necropolis- each of the High Judges was handpicked by Joko, but we have one who's pushing to build up the troops by Awakening everyone, another who's set the bar for Awakening so outrageously high that essentially no one can qualify, and a third who doesn't think the judges ought to be coming to any decision while Joko isn't around to check in on things when he feels like it. All three of them wind up taking violent action in support of their own positions and in direct opposition to the others'; the only thing that we can say reflects on Joko from that mess is his failure to set up governing bodies that are prepared to operate without him.

(Not that I think Joko would be at all shy about murder; I think he'd just keep it to the Deadhouse, out of sight of anyone south of the Bone Wall.)

[Narcemus.1348]

I find it interesting that in all of these conversations about whether or not Joko is. Despot, no one brought up his alleged blatant genocide of the elonian centaurs. I understand it may not be 100% true, but to claim to have made your Bone Palace out of the bones of Centaurs you would have to at least killed a lot of them. And I would say that those are not the types of actions taken by a noble leader.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Narcemus.1348 said:I find it interesting that in all of these conversations about whether or not Joko is. Despot, no one brought up his alleged blatant genocide of the elonian centaurs. I understand it may not be 100% true, but to claim to have made your Bone Palace out of the bones of Centaurs you would have to at least killed a lot of them. And I would say that those are not the types of actions taken by a noble leader.

Yes, but is he bad towards his own people?

[ugrakarma.9416]

Political systems are full of details and nuances that would be impossible to represent in a game, and i think Anet did a brilliant job with Joko in PoF.

[Athrenn.9468]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Political systems are full of details and nuances that would be impossible to represent in a game, and i think Anet did a brilliant job with Joko in PoF.

Now this, I can agree on wholeheartedly. We need more of what we saw in Vabbi in future expansions because it makes the Guild Wars universe feel more like something out of a history book than most video game cultures.

[Athrenn.9468]

@draxynnic.3719 said:At the bottom line, though, it is reasonable, given Joko's history, for the nations of Tyria to regard him as a threat. Particularly since they're also all influenced by the Order of Whispers, which has no love lost with Joko even if the Tyrian branch has shifted its focus to the dragons. Therefore, to return to the topic of this thread, it's entirely reasonable for the governments of Tyria to be happy to see anything that destabilizes Joko. Whether such motivation is out of idealism (free the oppressed!) or realpolitick (if we keep Joko focused on his own land he won't be able to interfere in ours) is open to interpretation, but either motivation is sufficient to be happy to give the Guild Initiative open license.

There are better ways to deal with international threats than declaring war or backing conspicuous paramilitary organizations (I.e. Guilds with private armies backed by the Guild Initiative) to potentially provoke a violent response. You never want to start a war if you can avoid it while achieving your political goals; it's bad for the geostrategic balance of power and not subtle enough to deflect political blame.

From a moral standpoint, that would be very dangerous territory. We're not even in a time period of Tyrian history where modern democratic countries exist yet but imagine what it would be like if a democratic state looked back at the atrocities committed by their ancestors in other time periods while judging them with their contemporary values. Let's take the Irish Potato Famine of 1846-1852 as an example. (Even if you don't want to take real-world politics into account, bear with me. We've already passed the point of no return where people are comparing Palawa Joko to real-world political leaders so this argument isn't going to die anytime soon.)

The Irish Potato Famine was a horrible disaster in human history, claiming close to a million lives for reasons that were preventable. If you read the article, those reasons that contributed to the disaster were largely political and rooted in the prevailing philosophies of the British government at the time. To quote the article, "Sir Charles Trevelyan, the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years. In his book, The Irish Crisis, published in 1848, Trevelyan described the famine as 'a direct stroke of an all-wise and all-merciful Providence', one which laid bare 'the deep and inveterate root of social evil'. The famine, he declared, was 'the sharp but effectual remedy by which the cure is likely to be effected [sic]... God grant that the generation to which this great opportunity has been offered may rightly perform its part...'"

Now, what if the French were looking across the English Channel and saw this terrible injustice?

"Ah-HA, you English swine!" they would say in their outrageous French accents. "We've caught you doing something terribly evil! Your domestic policies are WRONG and it's our job to liberate your country for the good of the poor Irish minorities!"

How would that have changed history? Looking back, would it have been a good thing for the evolution of Great Britain if some foreign country had toppled the 'Victorian regime' to free Ireland from its terrible conditions? And replaced it with... well, what would they have replaced it with that could have possibly fixed this problem, short of culling every politician with a similar mentality as Trevelyan and replacing them with people who we'll somehow select based on their moral qualifications?

Interfering with the affairs of sovereign nations using military action based on shoddy moral justification is a very dangerous practice. If some opposing society had successfully toppled the rule of Queen Victoria and began a succession crisis, Great Britain would undoubtedly be the worse for it.

We don't know how Vabbian society will be in a hundred years, but making a knee-jerk reaction to purge their government of people who hold unfavorable political opinions for the sake of short-term moral victories is a bad idea. Declaring war is not going to stop those people from starving; if Kryta wants to commit to a long-term solution, they should build an alliance with the Vabbian government and apply nonviolent diplomatic pressure when necessary to slowly bring them into alignment as allies. It's not a perfect solution, it won't result in positive change overnight, but it would be a step in the right direction. Approaching international affairs with diplomatic tact is a time-proven strategy that Tyrian governments have already learned to use through the Charr-Human Treaty negotiations and so there's no excuse for why the same strategy couldn't be tried with the Palawian regime. if it succeeds? Fantastic. if it doesn't? Less fantastic, but at least they shot for the best possible outcome first.

[Pirlipat.2479]

Well like I said Vabbi doesn't have a ruler atm, there is not much to purge left. (I yep I'm not putting to much trust in the hear-say of the scouts of a candy-corn during Halloween.) So we got regional rulers who poison their own people, a totaly incapable royal family, who are not even able to let their palace clean and the roaming remains of the mechanical army of a mad and now dead god. So who do you want to approach diplomaticly?

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

He does not have to be a good or noble person to be a good ruler.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

Anyone here read The Prince?

[Athrenn.9468]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:Anyone here read The Prince?

I actually haven't, but I've been meaning to eventually. I do appreciate Niccolò Machiavelli's framework for political theories of governance. I can't think of any examples of overtly Machiavellian themes being explored in the Guild Wars franchise but it's very applicable to stories of political drama. I've heard that G.R.R. Martin explores Machiavellian attitudes in Tywin Lannister's character so there's one good example of how it can be done in epic fantasy.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I find it interesting that in all of these conversations about whether or not Joko is. Despot, no one brought up his alleged blatant genocide of the elonian centaurs. I understand it may not be 100% true, but to claim to have made your Bone Palace out of the bones of Centaurs you would have to at least killed a lot of them. And I would say that those are not the types of actions taken by a noble leader.

Yes, but is he bad towards his own people?

Once you get to that point, you get to the point where you can excuse anything by sufficiently narrowing the definition of who the ruler's "own people" are.

Genocide is genocide.

@Athrenn.9468 said:We don't know how Vabbian society will be in a hundred years, but making a knee-jerk reaction to purge their government of people who hold unfavorable political opinions for the sake of short-term moral victories is a bad idea. Declaring war is not going to stop those people from starving; if Kryta wants to commit to a long-term solution, they should build an alliance with the Vabbian government and apply nonviolent diplomatic pressure when necessary to slowly bring them into alignment as allies. It's not a perfect solution, it won't result in positive change overnight, but it would be a step in the right direction. Approaching international affairs with diplomatic tact is a time-proven strategy that Tyrian governments have already learned to use through the Charr-Human Treaty negotiations and so there's no excuse for why the same strategy couldn't be tried with the Palawian regime. if it succeeds? Fantastic. if it doesn't? Less fantastic, but at least they shot for the best possible outcome first.

France would have lost in your hypothetical. Badly. England was still allied with Prussia and the Confederacy of the Rhine at the time if I remember my history right, and we know what happened in the War of 1880 and that was just Germany and Prussia. But that's neither here nor there.

The flaw in your argument is this: It is very likely that the Sunspears already attempted the policy you described. We don't know for sure what happened in the years between Nightfall and Joko's second invasion of Elona, but we have no evidence even of a simmering cold war with Joko, so the simplest explanation is that, at worst, Joko was left alone and diplomacy was attempted. Which Joko repaid by launching a second invasion.

Maintaining peace and hoping for generational change can work when generational change actually happens. However, Joko now is the same Joko who offered aid to Sahlahja only to destroy it, and who invaded Elona, and being an undying lich, will continue to rule over Elona until he is removed. There is no hope for a passing of government to result in a change of policies and attitudes: Joko will be the tyrant god-king of Elona forever until he is removed.

There is a time when diplomacy and keeping the peace can result in the desired outcome without a bloody conflict. And there are times when seeking "peace in our time" leads to the bloodiest war in human history.

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:Anyone here read The Prince?

Which Machiavelli intended as satire. Think of it as the Renaissance version of the Evil Overlord List.

[Athrenn.9468]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Genocide is genocide.

You know, we've had this discussion before with regards to the Mursaat and your stance seemed to be in favor of the collective action (though by no means with allied intention) between the Shining Blade and Titans in exterminating them to the very end. If your stance is that genocide is bad sometimes when you're killing certain groups but not others then it's not a consistent argument.

The flaw in your argument is this: It is very likely that the Sunspears already attempted the policy you described. We don't know for sure what happened in the years between Nightfall and Joko's second invasion of Elona, but we have no evidence even of a simmering cold war with Joko, so the simplest explanation is that, at worst, Joko was left alone and diplomacy was attempted. Which Joko repaid by launching a second invasion.

That seems like another shaky argument to me. We don't know what happened, so we don't know what happened. It's a dark age in our current historical record that has yet to be illuminated. A lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

Maintaining peace and hoping for generational change can work when generational change actually happens. However, Joko now is the same Joko who offered aid to Sahlahja only to destroy it, and who invaded Elona, and being an undying lich, will continue to rule over Elona until he is removed. There is no hope for a passing of government to result in a change of policies and attitudes: Joko will be the tyrant god-king of Elona forever until he is removed.

King Sahlahja is an NPC from the quest A Deal's A Deal. In this very same quest, the Sunspears (player character included) made a deal with Joko: we help him reclaim his palace, and he helps us kill Varesh Ossa. He kept his side of the bargain.

Does this mean that Joko can always be trusted? Obviously not, but the same quest that you're referring to has equal proof that he can swing either way depending on what he is interested in. Any relationship between Palawian Elona and another nation would need to be one of caution. If he does provoke an unnecessary war of conquest then the nations standing in opposition to him will at least have more time to gather intelligence and formulate a strategy. Diplomacy doesn't need to last forever, just as long as it's in the best interests of the parties involved.

Which Machiavelli intended as satire. Think of it as the Renaissance version of the Evil Overlord List.

That's an incredibly revisionist view of history that has strong evidence against it. Namely from his letter to Francesco Vettori which was written on December 10, 1513:

"I have discussed this little study of mine with Filippo and whether or not it would be a good idea to present it [to Giuliano], and if it were a good idea, whether I should take it myself or should send it to you. Against presenting it would be my suspicion that he might not even read it and that that person Ardinghelli might take the credit for this most recent of my endeavors. In favor of presenting it would be the necessity that hounds me, because I am wasting away and cannot continue on like this much longer without becoming contemptible because of my poverty. Besides, there is my desire that these Medici princes should begin to engage my services, even if they should start out by having me roll along a stone. For then, if I could not win them over, I should have only myself to blame. And through this study of mine, were it to be read, it would be evident that during the fifteen years I have been studying the art of the state I have neither slept nor fooled around, and anybody ought to be happy to utilize someone who has had so much experience at the expense of others. There should be no doubt about my word; for, since I have always kept it, I should not start learning how to break it now. Whoever has been honest and faithful for forty-three years, as I have, is unable to change his nature; my poverty is a witness to my loyalty and honesty."

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I find it interesting that in all of these conversations about whether or not Joko is. Despot, no one brought up his alleged blatant genocide of the elonian centaurs. I understand it may not be 100% true, but to claim to have made your Bone Palace out of the bones of Centaurs you would have to at least killed a lot of them. And I would say that those are not the types of actions taken by a noble leader.

Yes, but is he bad towards his own people?

Once you get to that point, you get to the point where you can excuse anything by sufficiently narrowing the definition of who the ruler's "own people" are.

Genocide is genocide.

@Athrenn.9468 said:We don't know how Vabbian society will be in a hundred years, but making a knee-jerk reaction to purge their government of people who hold unfavorable political opinions for the sake of short-term moral victories is a bad idea. Declaring war is not going to stop those people from starving; if Kryta wants to commit to a long-term solution, they should build an alliance with the Vabbian government and apply nonviolent diplomatic pressure when necessary to slowly bring them into alignment as allies. It's not a perfect solution, it won't result in positive change overnight, but it would be a step in the right direction. Approaching international affairs with diplomatic tact is a time-proven strategy that Tyrian governments have already learned to use through the Charr-Human Treaty negotiations and so there's no excuse for why the same strategy couldn't be tried with the Palawian regime. if it succeeds? Fantastic. if it doesn't? Less fantastic, but at least they shot for the best possible outcome first.

France would have lost in your hypothetical. Badly. England was still allied with Prussia and the Confederacy of the Rhine at the time if I remember my history right, and we know what happened in the War of 1880 and that was just Germany and Prussia. But that's neither here nor there.

The flaw in your argument is this: It is

very likely

that the Sunspears already attempted the policy you described. We don't know for sure what happened in the years between Nightfall and Joko's second invasion of Elona, but we have no evidence even of a simmering cold war with Joko, so the simplest explanation is that, at worst, Joko was left alone and diplomacy was attempted. Which Joko repaid by launching a second invasion.

Maintaining peace and hoping for generational change can work when generational change actually

happens.

However, Joko now is the same Joko who offered aid to Sahlahja only to destroy it, and who invaded Elona, and being an undying lich, will

continue

to rule over Elona until he is removed. There is no hope for a passing of government to result in a change of policies and attitudes: Joko will be the tyrant god-king of Elona forever until he is removed.

There is a time when diplomacy and keeping the peace can result in the desired outcome without a bloody conflict. And there are times when seeking "peace in our time" leads to the bloodiest war in human history.

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:Anyone here read The Prince?

Which Machiavelli intended as satire. Think of it as the Renaissance version of the Evil Overlord List.

My point and also my personal opinion is this;I don't care who is in charge and how they do it as long as there is personal peace, personal liberty, and order.

As long as I can live, work, play, sell and buy stuff, and persue hobbies/learnings... I don't care if my despot does morally questionable things.

Are trains running on time? Cool.Can I get good produce at the store? Sweet.Can I work to pay for the quality of life I want. Great!

Did my despot have to murder 621 anti-government protesters in the street because they were congesting local traffic? PRAISE JOKO

If you take personal feelings, opinion, sentiment, and bias away... is the state( and the people in it) properous? Is the state wealthy, is the state in good infrastructural and logistical standing? Is crime at baseline low? Is the state safe and secure?

If yes to all of those, who cares if you cant vote.

Joko take me now.

[Torolan.5816]

I always thought that Palawa Joko is a petty skritthole, and I still do. He´s like an undead version of Adolf H and Goebbels cobbled together, and the awakened and loyal living soldiers are his SS and Weapons SS respectively, the "Elite of the Herrenmenschen" .

[draxynnic.3719]

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Genocide is genocide.

You know, we've had this discussion before with regards to the Mursaat and your stance seemed to be in favor of the collective action (though by no means with allied intention) between the Shining Blade and Titans in exterminating them to the very end. If your stance is that genocide is bad sometimes when you're killing certain groups but not others then it's not a consistent argument.

That's less a case of taking them out simply because of who they are, but because of what they've done and, quite likely, what Glint knew they were planning to do. Genocide is genocide, but if you're talking about an entire race of immortal would-be despots... you're not wiping them out because they happen to be mursaat. You're wiping them out because every one is a significant threat and because, in Glint's case, she likely knows that diplomacy is impossible (long-range mind reader, remember?).

Joko has been hunting down the Ossans simply because of who their ancestor was. He made a point of wiping out the centaurs (or claiming to) simply because they had four legs rather than two - when the centaurs had, to all evidence (including LS2 material) been living at peace with the Kournans when they weren't themselves being oppressed. It's possible that this was a "We will never surrender" situation whereby wiping them out was the only way to prevent the fighting... but it's still his aggression that created that situation.

The flaw in your argument is this: It is

very likely

that the Sunspears already attempted the policy you described. We don't know for sure what happened in the years between Nightfall and Joko's second invasion of Elona, but we have no evidence even of a simmering cold war with Joko, so the simplest explanation is that, at worst, Joko was left alone and diplomacy was attempted. Which Joko repaid by launching a second invasion.

That seems like another shaky argument to me. We don't know what happened, so we don't know what happened. It's a dark age in our current historical record that has yet to be illuminated. A lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

Sure, we don't have a clear history, but given Joko's propaganda machine, if there was coordinated action to bring him down before his second invasion, don't you think we would have heard about it? He'd be crowing to the rooftops about how he only attacked in response to Sunspear aggression. Instead, his vilification of the Sunspears seems to be based on their resistance since (one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter and all...)

Maintaining peace and hoping for generational change can work when generational change actually

happens.

However, Joko now is the same Joko who offered aid to Sahlahja only to destroy it, and who invaded Elona, and being an undying lich, will

continue

to rule over Elona until he is removed. There is no hope for a passing of government to result in a change of policies and attitudes: Joko will be the tyrant god-king of Elona forever until he is removed.

King Sahlahja is an NPC from the quest

A Deal's A Deal

. In this very same quest, the Sunspears (player character included) made a deal with Joko: we help him reclaim his palace, and he helps us kill Varesh Ossa. He kept his side of the bargain.

Only while it benefited him, it seems.

was also part of the bargain, and the only reason he didn't kill

out of hand right away is because of [MORE SPOILERS OF WHICH I ASSUME YOU KNOW ABOUT, AND IF YOU DON'T, YOU'LL KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT].

Joko didn't break the "we'll free you in exchange for help fighting against Varesh" because it was in Joko's interest. He had a grudge against Varesh, and the world being destroyed would be bad for him too. Doesn't mean his word can be trusted when he keeps a bargain that's entirely in his interest.

There's also this thing about trust. If you want people to trust your word, you need to have odds of keeping it that are a lot better than 50%.

Does this mean that Joko can always be trusted? Obviously not, but the same quest that you're referring to has equal proof that he can swing either way depending on what he is interested in. Any relationship between Palawian Elona and another nation would need to be one of caution. If he does provoke an unnecessary war of conquest then the nations standing in opposition to him will at least have more time to gather intelligence and formulate a strategy. Diplomacy doesn't need to last forever, just as long as it's in the best interests of the parties involved.

Palawa's tactic, every time, has been to strike in such a way that by the time the target realises what's happened, they're too weak to resist.

Sahalaja? He came in the guise of aid and stabbed them in the back.

Vabbi, first time around? Sneak attack using a route through the Vehjin Mines that allowed him to conquer Vabbi before anyone realised what was happening.

Second time around? Diverting the Elon north of Vabbi.

Palawa Joko simply doesn't attack in a way that allows his opposition "time to gather intelligence and formulate a strategy". That's not how he operates. He attacks in a way that ideally gives his target no opportunity to fight back effectively. The only reason Elona beat him the first time is the fluke of having someone who could beat him in single combat and Joko being arrogant enough to accept a duel.

If Joko decides to attack a Tyrian nation, you can guarantee that it will not be in a visible manner that allows "time to gather intelligence and formulate a strategy". It would be because he's found a weakness that allows him to effectively eliminate all centralised resistance from at least one nation before anyone can react. Because that's what he does. Which is what makes him dangerous, and why his neighbours, if they're smart and paid attention to history, would be looking to find ways to make sure that he doesn't have the opportunity to find such a weakness.

Which Machiavelli intended as satire. Think of it as the Renaissance version of the Evil Overlord List.

That's an incredibly revisionist view of history that has strong evidence against it. Namely from

his letter to Francesco Vettori which was written on December 10, 1513

:

"I have discussed this little study of mine with Filippo and whether or not it would be a good idea to present it [to Giuliano], and if it were a good idea, whether I should take it myself or should send it to you. Against presenting it would be my suspicion that he might not even read it and that that person Ardinghelli might take the credit for this most recent of my endeavors. In favor of presenting it would be the necessity that hounds me, because I am wasting away and cannot continue on like this much longer without becoming contemptible because of my poverty. Besides, there is my desire that these Medici princes should begin to engage my services, even if they should start out by having me roll along a stone. For then, if I could not win them over, I should have only myself to blame. And through this study of mine, were it to be read, it would be evident that during the fifteen years I have been studying the art of the state I have neither slept nor fooled around, and anybody ought to be happy to utilize someone who has had so much experience at the expense of others. There should be no doubt about my word; for, since I have always kept it, I should not start learning how to break it now. Whoever has been honest and faithful for forty-three years, as I have, is unable to change his nature; my poverty is a witness to my loyalty and honesty."

I'm not familiar enough to argue this point, but I will say that a) I find that letter inconclusive (it's basically saying that 1) I hope I get a job again (the Medici princes in question had just destroyed the republic he had previously worked for), and 2) my work shows that I understand how things are done, with no indication that he thinks that's how things should be done) and b) the idea that he intended The Prince to actually be a guide to how nations should be run seems to be discordant with other things he did.

Even if we were to suppose that Machiavellianism is an appropriate approach for rulers to take, here's a page from that playbook:

If a foreign government presents a threat or is causing you inconvenience, decrease their ability to do so through employing deniable assets to provoke insurrection in their own nation, thereby distracting them and reducing their ability to cause problems for you.

I don't know if this was in Machiavelli's original book, but it's certainly a common tactic of Machiavellian statesmen in the last century. Therefore, even by your own arguments, for the Tyrians to act to destabilise a rival regime is entirely justified?

Unless you want to say that only the tyrants are allowed to act in this manner. That it's perfectly justified for Joko to divert a river and starve a nation as a means of subjugating his enemies (where the evidence we do have indicates that Joko was the aggressor), but the nations of Tyria, no, they're never allowed to do anything underhanded, they always have to keep extending the hand of diplomacy no matter how many times Joko has shown that he'll bite it off the moment he thinks it's in his interest to do so?

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I find it interesting that in all of these conversations about whether or not Joko is. Despot, no one brought up his alleged blatant genocide of the elonian centaurs. I understand it may not be 100% true, but to claim to have made your Bone Palace out of the bones of Centaurs you would have to at least killed a lot of them. And I would say that those are not the types of actions taken by a noble leader.

Yes, but is he bad towards his own people?

Once you get to that point, you get to the point where you can excuse anything by sufficiently narrowing the definition of who the ruler's "own people" are.

Genocide is genocide.

@Athrenn.9468 said:We don't know how Vabbian society will be in a hundred years, but making a knee-jerk reaction to purge their government of people who hold unfavorable political opinions for the sake of short-term moral victories is a bad idea. Declaring war is not going to stop those people from starving; if Kryta wants to commit to a long-term solution, they should build an alliance with the Vabbian government and apply nonviolent diplomatic pressure when necessary to slowly bring them into alignment as allies. It's not a perfect solution, it won't result in positive change overnight, but it would be a step in the right direction. Approaching international affairs with diplomatic tact is a time-proven strategy that Tyrian governments have already learned to use through the Charr-Human Treaty negotiations and so there's no excuse for why the same strategy couldn't be tried with the Palawian regime. if it succeeds? Fantastic. if it doesn't? Less fantastic, but at least they shot for the best possible outcome first.

France would have lost in your hypothetical. Badly. England was still allied with Prussia and the Confederacy of the Rhine at the time if I remember my history right, and we know what happened in the War of 1880 and that was just Germany and Prussia. But that's neither here nor there.

The flaw in your argument is this: It is

very likely

that the Sunspears already attempted the policy you described. We don't know for sure what happened in the years between Nightfall and Joko's second invasion of Elona, but we have no evidence even of a simmering cold war with Joko, so the simplest explanation is that, at worst, Joko was left alone and diplomacy was attempted. Which Joko repaid by launching a second invasion.

Maintaining peace and hoping for generational change can work when generational change actually

happens.

However, Joko now is the same Joko who offered aid to Sahlahja only to destroy it, and who invaded Elona, and being an undying lich, will

continue

to rule over Elona until he is removed. There is no hope for a passing of government to result in a change of policies and attitudes: Joko will be the tyrant god-king of Elona forever until he is removed.

There is a time when diplomacy and keeping the peace can result in the desired outcome without a bloody conflict. And there are times when seeking "peace in our time" leads to the bloodiest war in human history.

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:Anyone here read The Prince?

Which Machiavelli intended as satire. Think of it as the Renaissance version of the Evil Overlord List.

My point and also my personal opinion is this;I don't care who is in charge and how they do it as long as there is personal peace, personal liberty, and order.

As long as I can live, work, play, sell and buy stuff, and persue hobbies/learnings... I don't care if my despot does morally questionable things.

Are trains running on time? Cool.Can I get good produce at the store? Sweet.Can I work to pay for the quality of life I want. Great!

Did my despot have to murder 621 anti-government protesters in the street because they were congesting local traffic? PRAISE JOKO

If you take personal feelings, opinion, sentiment, and bias away... is the state( and the people in it) properous? Is the state wealthy, is the state in good infrastructural and logistical standing? Is crime at baseline low? Is the state safe and secure?

If yes to all of those, who cares if you cant vote.

Joko take me now.

"First, they came for the Socialists..."