Adelbern's Directive

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Aye-yup. Apparently interfering with a tyrannical ruler is bad because overthrowing him (or her) can disrupt society, but it's perfectly kosher for that tyrannical ruler to wipe out populations in the name of maintaining order.

Why is it okay for you to commit atrocity, religious persecution, genocide, treason, and mass murder?

What makes you morally exempt?You as the player character.

And then have the hypocrisy to mouth justice and good, and point fingers at another tyrant...

I don't know where 'treason' is coming from regarding the player character... asura going against the Arcane Council? One person's treason is often another's just rebellion, though...

Regarding the rest: Generally speaking, the "self defence or in defence of others" clause, writ large.

The White Mantle isn't persecuted by the PC simply because of their religion. They're persecuted because they've been kidnapping and murdering people, masterminding a crime wave, manipulating or possibly outright triggering the centaur war and, ultimately, declare war on the nation of Kryta. If the White Mantle had set up their own nation in the Maguuma Jungle and remained there not bothering anyone, it's likely that they'd be viewed as being a bit strange but not otherwise bothered, although the Shining Blade might keep a close eye on them. Even as they are, White Mantle members who want to surrender or defect have been given the opportunity to do so.

Similar arguments apply, mutatis mutandis, to the Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and Nightmare Court.

Palawa Joko isn't motivated by defending others.

Jokes on you. I never had White Mantle on in mind when I said that. Instead I am specifically referring to Maw Shaman of Svanir.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Aye-yup. Apparently interfering with a tyrannical ruler is bad because overthrowing him (or her) can disrupt society, but it's perfectly kosher for that tyrannical ruler to wipe out populations in the name of maintaining order.

Why is it okay for you to commit atrocity, religious persecution, genocide, treason, and mass murder?

What makes you morally exempt?You as the player character.

And then have the hypocrisy to mouth justice and good, and point fingers at another tyrant...

I don't know where 'treason' is coming from regarding the player character... asura going against the Arcane Council? One person's treason is often another's just rebellion, though...

Regarding the rest: Generally speaking, the "self defence or in defence of others" clause, writ large.

The White Mantle isn't persecuted by the PC simply because of their religion. They're persecuted because they've been kidnapping and murdering people, masterminding a crime wave, manipulating or possibly outright triggering the centaur war and, ultimately, declare war on the nation of Kryta. If the White Mantle had set up their own nation in the Maguuma Jungle and remained there not bothering anyone, it's likely that they'd be viewed as being a bit strange but not otherwise bothered, although the Shining Blade might keep a close eye on them. Even as they are, White Mantle members who want to surrender or defect have been given the opportunity to do so.

Similar arguments apply, mutatis mutandis, to the Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and Nightmare Court.

Palawa Joko isn't motivated by defending others.

Jokes on you. I never had White Mantle on in mind when I said that. Instead I am specifically referring to Maw Shaman of Svanir.

The one riling up the local grawl to descend on the nearby homesteads in droves, then conjures up an ice elemental to bury said homesteaders in a blizzard?

[draxynnic.3719]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Aye-yup. Apparently interfering with a tyrannical ruler is bad because overthrowing him (or her) can disrupt society, but it's perfectly kosher for that tyrannical ruler to wipe out populations in the name of maintaining order.

Why is it okay for you to commit atrocity, religious persecution, genocide, treason, and mass murder?

What makes you morally exempt?You as the player character.

And then have the hypocrisy to mouth justice and good, and point fingers at another tyrant...

I don't know where 'treason' is coming from regarding the player character... asura going against the Arcane Council? One person's treason is often another's just rebellion, though...

Regarding the rest: Generally speaking, the "self defence or in defence of others" clause, writ large.

The White Mantle isn't persecuted by the PC simply because of their religion. They're persecuted because they've been kidnapping and murdering people, masterminding a crime wave, manipulating or possibly outright triggering the centaur war and, ultimately, declare war on the nation of Kryta. If the White Mantle had set up their own nation in the Maguuma Jungle and remained there not bothering anyone, it's likely that they'd be viewed as being a bit strange but not otherwise bothered, although the Shining Blade might keep a close eye on them. Even as they are, White Mantle members who want to surrender or defect have been given the opportunity to do so.

Similar arguments apply, mutatis mutandis, to the Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and Nightmare Court.

Palawa Joko isn't motivated by defending others.

Jokes on you. I never had White Mantle on in mind when I said that. Instead I am specifically referring to Maw Shaman of Svanir.

The one riling up the local grawl to descend on the nearby homesteads in droves, then conjures up an ice elemental to bury said homesteaders in a blizzard?

Like I said: "Similar arguments apply, mutatis mutandis, to the Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and Nightmare Court."

("Mutatis mutandis", incidentally, is effectively an acknowledgement that the details are different, but the overall principle is the same. In the case of the Sons of Svanir specifically, in fact, it's explicitly noted that because of the way norn culture operates, we only go after those Sons that have been causing problems. Those that follow Dragon but don't bother their neighbours are left in peace as long as they remain peaceful themselves.)

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Aye-yup. Apparently interfering with a tyrannical ruler is bad because overthrowing him (or her) can disrupt society, but it's perfectly kosher for that tyrannical ruler to wipe out populations in the name of maintaining order.

Why is it okay for you to commit atrocity, religious persecution, genocide, treason, and mass murder?

What makes you morally exempt?You as the player character.

And then have the hypocrisy to mouth justice and good, and point fingers at another tyrant...

I don't know where 'treason' is coming from regarding the player character... asura going against the Arcane Council? One person's treason is often another's just rebellion, though...

Regarding the rest: Generally speaking, the "self defence or in defence of others" clause, writ large.

The White Mantle isn't persecuted by the PC simply because of their religion. They're persecuted because they've been kidnapping and murdering people, masterminding a crime wave, manipulating or possibly outright triggering the centaur war and, ultimately, declare war on the nation of Kryta. If the White Mantle had set up their own nation in the Maguuma Jungle and remained there not bothering anyone, it's likely that they'd be viewed as being a bit strange but not otherwise bothered, although the Shining Blade might keep a close eye on them. Even as they are, White Mantle members who want to surrender or defect have been given the opportunity to do so.

Similar arguments apply, mutatis mutandis, to the Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and Nightmare Court.

Palawa Joko isn't motivated by defending others.

Jokes on you. I never had White Mantle on in mind when I said that. Instead I am specifically referring to Maw Shaman of Svanir.

The one riling up the local grawl to descend on the nearby homesteads in droves, then conjures up an ice elemental to bury said homesteaders in a blizzard?

That's conjecture.And spun from Scholar Boguns narrative.

The crawl on many occasions seek out the gods of others. So what you say or riling up is the Shaman going to the crawl village to teach them teachings of Dragon.

Why are the crawl only hostile to YOU and not Shaman? He was invited. YOU don't like what he is doing there, not the grawl. So stop.

He puts up a totem in worship and you destroy it for no other reason that it's worshipping something you don't like.

He conjured the ele in response to YOUR attack.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Squee.7829 said:This thread has become a weird thing when people who claim "it's not right to let an organization encroach on someone else's territory" but then spend days explaining why it's ok to exterminate an entire race because of "objectivity. " I'm not even sure what's going on anymore.

If that's what you've taken away from this debate then you're missing half the argument.

According to Machiavelli's model of political science (or at least a very distilled version, because that is all we have time for), morality does not factor into the decisions a ruler should make. What is right and wrong are up for the philosophers to debate, and no doubt they will spend an eternity debating the morality of an event hundreds of years after the fact. A ruler's primary concern, Machiavelli would say, is to keep their established basis of power secure.

A ruler who makes decisions based on what they think is morally correct is an amateur, not a professional. While it may be inherently human to hold beliefs about what is right or wrong, it is irresponsible as the leader entrusted with the fate of a nation to act on that alone at the cost of the well-being of those who have put their faith in the monarch to look out for their best interests first and foremost.

As Aaron pointed out, this is the U.N.'s definition of genocide: "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

As I pointed out, if two political groups carried out the act of genocide (such as the Shining Blade against the Mursaat or Palawa Joko against the centaurs) then a 21st-century international court of law would find them both guilty under that definition. What that means for the world of Tyria is inconsequential without proof that the war crime of genocide as the U.N. defines it exists in this setting.

In Tyria, you have kings and queens who hold absolute authority over their subjects. There is no international court of law to hold political leaders accountable for their actions because, in Tyria, there has been no such movement to establish a League of Nations. Unless proven otherwise, international human rights as we know it do not exist in this setting and neither does the crime of genocide.

Morality is a shifting goal post that evolves over time to suit the societies in which those moral sensibilities exist. Judging a citizen of Tyria from the 14th century according to 21st-century Earth morals makes no sense for the setting. In 14th-century England, it was common practice for kings to raise the severed heads, limbs, and other detachable body parts on pikes on top of the city gates. Something that would be condemned now in our society would have been considered a normal part of a 14th-century individual's life. Statues of the king were raised as a matter of national pride, peasants were oppressed into building the castles that would be used to oppress them, and all of this was done under the laws and moral standards of the time.

With no evidence that Tyrians have the same concept of sentient rights on an international scale as we do, there should be no reason to believe that the rulers of Tyrian nations should act according to what our society believes is morally correct. They will act according to the customs of their own setting where acts such as the extermination of another species seems like an acceptable means of dealing with enemies (as long as they come up with a convincing reason to tell their people about why it was necessary, and all that. It's not murder if they have a red health bar above their head, right?).

[draxynnic.3719]

First: Joko doesn't care about anyone's interests or well-being beyond his own, from all we've seen. He's fairly pragmatic for an undead ruler from what we've seen in that he keeps the living, well, alive, but he shows no inkling of feeling responsible to improving or even maintaining the standards of living of his subjects. In fact, the basis of his power comes from denying them their ability to grow the food they need to live, thereby making them totally dependent on him.

So the argument that his actions are justified for maintaining the nation fall into a deep hole. He maintains only himself.

Second: As I noted above, the United Nations has not had to deal with a situation where every single member of a given population has the power to take on an army by themselves (in fact, when dealing with normal human populations, the safe assumption is that attempting to wipe out a population requires deliberate targeting of noncombatants among that population). Nor has it had to deal with a situation where there are only a handful of people remaining in a particular cultural or ethnic group and every one remaining is a war criminal. I'm pretty sure that in those circumstances the United Nations would have no problem with locking them up (or executing them if the United Nations had capital punishment), even if this results in the extinction of that group.

Third (and probably most important): As Squee noted, you did open with "you shouldn't interfere in someone else's domains because they might retaliate and because bringing down the existing government could make things worse for the people living there".

Your own Machiavellian philosophy would say that the governments of Tyria should not give a polished kitten for the circumstances of the people of Elona, and should only worry about what is good for themselves or their people.

Under your own philosophy, then, the only question in play regarding efforts by the governments of Tyria to destabilise Joko are: Is this likely to increase, or decrease, the threat posed by Joko to their nations?

What we know of Joko's history indicates that his usual approach is to launch surprise attacks that give his victims little opportunity to resist, even after first offering the hand of friendship. Therefore, it is a reasonable position to take that Joko is simply to dangerous to be left alone to plot undisturbed, and thereby efforts to destabilise his rule and keep his attention on his own territory are justified under Machiavellian philosophy.

[Torolan.5816]

I think if you do not at least apply the most fundamental rights, I see for example no obligation to save the good citizens of Kryta but the narrative always urges you to do it. This would mean to me that Anet should make a decision regarding the commander, is he a good guy or not?

If he is just a political pawn working for the one who declares prosperity as his goal, write him so. Let him ignore the pleas of the helpless nomads. Tell the Exalted to get lost with their dragon education and just smash the egg. Let him talk down to those he thinks as unworthy of his time, and laugh off requests of local rulers because he is the commander and powerful enough to fight his way out of anything that irks him. Don´t let him have friends, let him have allies and pawns to move himself in positions of power. Tell the shining blade to go skritt themselves with their oath, if they need him they will come groveling on their stomachs anyway.

If he is a good guy, write him so. Let him follow the directives of robocop basically:Protect the innocent.Uphold the law.Serve the public trust.

[Crinn.7864]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

The centaurs attacked civilians in Shaemoor. They are not there for territory, they were there to slaughter the human populations.

[Narcemus.1348]

Drax does have a point when it comes to the mursaat. The GW 1 PC only ever killed Mursaat army, individuals attacking allies, or those defending the gate of Komalie (And that last part only under half truths given by the Vizier). And they only attacked the Mursaat when provoked by their attempted genocide of the Chosen. The genocide of the Mursaat was carried out by the Titans under the command of the Lich Lord. You could claim that it was the Pc's fault, but they were mislead By a villain and did what they could to right the wrong by the Titan quests. By the time we get to Guild Wars 2, Lazarus would have been a war criminal by any standards, and one that was incredibly dangerous if ever released.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

The centaurs attacked civilians in Shaemoor. They are not there for territory, they were there to slaughter the human populations.

The centaurs actually are warring over territory. The Centaur War began in 300 AE and has been an off-and-on war since then. It began when Elonians recolonized Kryta and pushed north into centaur (and probably Caromi tengu) territory. In recent years with Kryta's further expansion north due to the rise of Zhaitan into Tamini nomad territory, the Maguuma Jungle drying up forcing the Harathi out, and Jormag pushing the modniir out of the Far Shiverpeaks, the centaurs are overpopulated for their small territory.

While part of the war is certainly out of racial hatred that has risen due to the millennia-long war, the centaurs are becoming desperate for land to call their own. Their attack on Shaemoor was an attack of opportunity in this war, but their primary motivation - especially now that Ulgoth is dead - would be territory to call their own.

No map so far, however, has gone into true centaur territory - all of what we see has been Kryta since at least King Oswald Thorn's era.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

The centaurs attacked civilians in Shaemoor. They are not there for territory, they were there to slaughter the human populations.

The centaurs actually are warring over territory. The Centaur War began in 300 AE and has been an off-and-on war since then. It began when Elonians recolonized Kryta and pushed north into centaur (and probably Caromi tengu) territory. In recent years with Kryta's further expansion north due to the rise of Zhaitan into Tamini nomad territory, the Maguuma Jungle drying up forcing the Harathi out, and Jormag pushing the modniir out of the Far Shiverpeaks, the centaurs are overpopulated for their small territory.

While part of the war is certainly out of racial hatred that has risen due to the millennia-long war, the centaurs are becoming desperate for land to call their own. Their attack on Shaemoor was an attack of opportunity in this war, but their primary motivation - especially now that Ulgoth is dead - would be territory to call their own.

No map so far, however, has gone into true centaur territory - all of what we see has been Kryta since at least King Oswald Thorn's era.

However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

The centaurs attacked civilians in Shaemoor. They are not there for territory, they were there to slaughter the human populations.

The centaurs actually are warring over territory. The Centaur War began in 300 AE and has been an off-and-on war since then. It began when Elonians recolonized Kryta and pushed north into centaur (and probably Caromi tengu) territory. In recent years with Kryta's further expansion north due to the rise of Zhaitan into Tamini nomad territory, the Maguuma Jungle drying up forcing the Harathi out, and Jormag pushing the modniir out of the Far Shiverpeaks, the centaurs are overpopulated for their small territory.

While part of the war is certainly out of racial hatred that has risen due to the millennia-long war, the centaurs are becoming desperate for land to call their own. Their attack on Shaemoor was an attack of opportunity in this war, but their primary motivation - especially now that Ulgoth is dead - would be territory to call their own.

No map so far, however, has gone into true centaur territory - all of what we see has been Kryta since at least King Oswald Thorn's era.

However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

There's no human colonization going on there, and there's nothing to even suggest such a thing. Humanity has been in an decline, and humans have been losing settlement after settlement with only refugees growing to Divinity's Reach. No new settlements have been made in Kryta.

Besides which, Harathi Hinterlands was already colonized. See Portia, who lived in a village in northern Harathi Hinterlands 500 years ago. That village is long gone now - gone with Thorn's rule - but that's proof that humans had colonized the northern section of that map ages ago, not part of the modern conflict. Even Ulgoth's war camp is littered with Krytan ruins here and there, indicating that the only group to gain colonization in the region, is the centaurs.

Your claim is not only baseless, but contradicted with canon lore. Humanity is in full defensive mode in the Centaur War nowadays.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

In a court of law, the centaurs would probably be considered the aggressors of a territory dispute since Kryta held the land legally as recognized by all of the other leaders.

Of course, that's the thing about laws. If you conquer the territory and impose your own laws then the law favors you and your people.

Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

@draxynnic.3719 said:First: Joko doesn't care about anyone's interests or well-being beyond his own, from all we've seen. He's fairly pragmatic for an undead ruler from what we've seen in that he keeps the living, well, alive, but he shows no inkling of feeling responsible to improving or even maintaining the standards of living of his subjects. In fact, the basis of his power comes from denying them their ability to grow the food they need to live, thereby making them totally dependent on him.

See my earlier post for evidence of the following:

• Palawa Joko's rule has lasted from 1175-Present—that's 155 years, longer than Canada has been a country. He did that by establishing a power base of people to support him. How does one cultivate a stable base of power for 155 years? By looking after their interests. Conquering a country is a team effort; no one can do it on their own. They need loyal supporters and no one stays loyal for long unless the relationship is rewarding beyond fear alone.
• No effort to maintain the standards of living of his subjects? See your previous post where I showed you in-game where a visible measure of their standard of living could be found and you accepted it. "So? People having enough to eat does not change that they're living under a tyrant." Denying them their ability to grow the food they need? If the village of Purity is an indication of what Vabbi's other villages look like them it looks like they have more than enough food to supply not only themselves but a rich variety ranging from suckling pig to pomegranates. That doesn't seem like denying them of food to me, and you can't use Kourna or Istan as examples when we don't even have a shred of evidence in-game for what their current living conditions are.

So the argument that his actions are justified for maintaining the nation fall into a deep hole. He maintains only himself.

And his rule over Elona for 155 years. As I stated above, he's been in charge longer than Canada has been a country and that requires a strong base of power. Conquering a country is a team effort and no ruler can do it without looking out for the interests of his loyal followers so that they continue to be loyal.

Second: As I noted above, the United Nations has not had to deal with a situation where every single member of a given population has the power to take on an army by themselves (in fact, when dealing with normal human populations, the safe assumption is that attempting to wipe out a population requires deliberate targeting of noncombatants among that population). Nor has it had to deal with a situation where there are only a handful of people remaining in a particular cultural or ethnic group and every one remaining is a war criminal. I'm pretty sure that in those circumstances the United Nations would have no problem with locking them up (or executing them if the United Nations had capital punishment), even if this results in the extinction of that group.

I'm honestly not sure what to make of this statement. The United Nations don't exist in Tyria, nor anything even resembling them.

Third (and probably most important): As Squee noted, you did open with "you shouldn't interfere in someone else's domains because they might retaliate and because bringing down the existing government could make things worse for the people living there".

Your own Machiavellian philosophy would say that the governments of Tyria should not give a polished kitten for the circumstances of the people of Elona, and should only worry about what is good for themselves or their people.

Let's take a look at what I actually said: Secondly, I think it's a pretty shady business practice for the Tyrian Explorer Society to act as an invasive colonial entity by funding expeditions to declare ownership of foreign soil while acting under the authority of the five major nations of the northern continent. That could be taken as an inadvertent act of war which the countries may not agree with in the case of Elona where the claiming mission includes open hostilities with the Vabbian army while on their own soil.

• Is it a shady business practice? Yes, and it's just as morally dubious as any effort to colonize land in a foreign country where another sovereign ruler is recognized and accepted.
• Will declaring pre-emptive war improve the conditions for one's own subjects? Not if history repeats itself and it becomes a long, drawn out and bloody affair that could take over 40 years. The Guild Initiative operates with the public endorsement of six major nations including Lion's Arch which opens the door to accusations of colonialism that the governments cannot deny without withdrawing their endorsements. Aside from the part where guild halls never seem to factor into the narrative, that would be a very foolish loose end to leave hanging.
• We're not talking about my moral philosophies; this is a discussion of how politics and military conquest work in a realistic setting (like real life) and what history can teach us about worldbuilding.

What we know of Joko's history indicates that his usual approach is to launch surprise attacks that give his victims little opportunity to resist, even after first offering the hand of friendship. Therefore, it is a reasonable position to take that Joko is simply to dangerous to be left alone to plot undisturbed, and thereby efforts to destabilise his rule and keep his attention on his own territory are justified under Machiavellian philosophy.

Is endorsing the colonization of minor military targets using an organization with open ties to the six governments of continental Tyria supposed to be an effective strategy for mitigating Elona as a threat? We all know that our guild halls are under no threat because that's outside of game mechanics, but within the logic of the setting it would be a terrible idea. Provoking a dangerous predator is stupid; killing them in their sleep while they have yet to recognize you as a threat is smart hunting.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Athrenn.9468 said:Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

True, but centaurs are the only ones creating new structures. Currently, as far as we're aware, the entire race are soldiers now due to the tribes' enslavement to the modniir (which may have lessened with the Ulgoth's death, as we see no modniir in Lake Doric except possibly Siegemaster Immelhoof).

[Torolan.5816]

I always had the impression that centaurs are seminomadic by nature. Even in ls2 they live in huts that look strong enough to work as a shelter, but calling it a real house would be to much.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Speaking of centaur genocide. Isn't that what humans are doing in Harathi?

Pretty sure the Centaur war is a territory war, more akin to IRL Falklands War than it is to any genocidal conflict. Yes the sheer duration of the war has given rise to a lot of viciousness between the sides, but it's no more vicious than the English vs French in the Hundred Years War.

The centaurs attacked civilians in Shaemoor. They are not there for territory, they were there to slaughter the human populations.

The centaurs actually are warring over territory. The Centaur War began in 300 AE and has been an off-and-on war since then. It began when Elonians recolonized Kryta and pushed north into centaur (and probably Caromi tengu) territory. In recent years with Kryta's further expansion north due to the rise of Zhaitan into Tamini nomad territory, the Maguuma Jungle drying up forcing the Harathi out, and Jormag pushing the modniir out of the Far Shiverpeaks, the centaurs are overpopulated for their small territory.

While part of the war is certainly out of racial hatred that has risen due to the millennia-long war, the centaurs are becoming desperate for land to call their own. Their attack on Shaemoor was an attack of opportunity in this war, but their primary motivation - especially now that Ulgoth is dead - would be territory to call their own.

No map so far, however, has gone into true centaur territory - all of what we see has been Kryta since at least King Oswald Thorn's era.

However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

There's no human colonization going on there, and there's nothing to even suggest such a thing. Humanity has been in an decline, and humans have been losing settlement after settlement with only refugees growing to Divinity's Reach. No new settlements have been made in Kryta.

The village next to the lake and the White Mantle ruins just below it are human settlements. There are citizens and children living in the village.

Besides which, Harathi Hinterlands was already colonized. See Portia, who lived in a village in northern Harathi Hinterlands 500 years ago. That village is long gone now - gone with Thorn's rule - but that's proof that humans had colonized the northern section of that map ages ago, not part of the modern conflict. Even Ulgoth's war camp is littered with Krytan ruins here and there, indicating that the only group to gain colonization in the region, is the centaurs.

That's my question. "What is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population?"

Your claim is not only baseless, but contradicted with canon lore. Humanity is in full defensive mode in the Centaur War nowadays.

I'm actually talking about the events that happen there. What looks like a war camp to humans, it could be a centaur village. There is a peaceful After helping the Seraph make the push to get rid of Ulgoth, then what? Are they just going to stop and tell the centaurs to stop messing with them? Of course not.

To secure the area, they have to allow human civilians to colonize the place. In which point they will have reasons to fortify the area to protect the population.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Athrenn.9468 said:Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

True, but centaurs are the only ones creating new structures. Currently, as far as we're aware, the entire race are soldiers now due to the tribes' enslavement to the modniir (which may have lessened with the Ulgoth's death, as we see no modniir in Lake Doric except possibly Siegemaster Immelhoof).

In which case, I suppose the question would be whether the centaurs are even capable of colonialism if their society is based on temporary camps and nomadic wandering.

But then again, the Maguuma centaurs seemed to have permanent dwellings and even some evidence of horticulture? shrug I suppose it could vary from culture to culture.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

In a court of law, the centaurs would probably be considered the aggressors of a territory dispute since Kryta held the land legally as recognized by all of the other leaders.

Of course, that's the thing about laws. If you conquer the territory and impose your own laws then the law favors you and your people.

Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

It is my understanding that this war is triggered by the dragons, pushing the centaurs south because of Jormag and pushing the humans north because of Zhaitan, then they clash in Harathi and fighting over who should colonize the area. If the centaurs lost their northern villages, it just makes sense if they are looking at Harathi as their future home.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

In a court of law, the centaurs would probably be considered the aggressors of a territory dispute since Kryta held the land legally as recognized by all of the other leaders.

Of course, that's the thing about laws. If you conquer the territory and impose your own laws then the law favors you and your people.

Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

It is my understanding that this war is triggered by the dragons, pushing the centaurs south because of Jormag and pushing the humans north because of Zhaitan, then they clash in Harathi and fighting over who should colonize the area. If the centaurs lost their northern villages, it just makes sense if they are looking at Harathi as their future home.

I don't think that the hinterlands were ever considered terra nullius by the Krytans. I also can't remember where the exact dialogue came from but I do recall some source indicating that many Krytan homesteaders were being displaced by the centaurs and made refugees. I just assumed that there were more Krytan settlements in the hinterlands and they've all been razed by the centaurs to make room for war camps. Maybe someone else has the dialogue to confirm/deny it? shrug I'm just going off memory here; I haven't researched the situation in that map in quite a while.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

In a court of law, the centaurs would probably be considered the aggressors of a territory dispute since Kryta held the land legally as recognized by all of the other leaders.

Of course, that's the thing about laws. If you conquer the territory and impose your own laws then the law favors you and your people.

Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

It is my understanding that this war is triggered by the dragons, pushing the centaurs south because of Jormag and pushing the humans north because of Zhaitan, then they clash in Harathi and fighting over who should colonize the area. If the centaurs lost their northern villages, it just makes sense if they are looking at Harathi as their future home.

I don't think that the hinterlands were ever considered

terra nullius

by the Krytans. I also can't remember where the exact dialogue came from but I do recall some source indicating that many Krytan homesteaders were being displaced by the centaurs and made refugees. I just assumed that there were more Krytan settlements in the hinterlands and they've all been razed by the centaurs to make room for war camps. Maybe someone else has the dialogue to confirm/deny it?

shrug

I'm just going off memory here; I haven't researched the situation in that map in quite a while.

I think that dialog is in Gendaran instead of Harathi where the centaurs are attacking the Ascalon Settlement.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Ok I found this;After Map completion.

Tyrian Explorers SocietyHarathi Hinterlands

Salutations,

A trip through the centaur homeland is no small feat. Safe havens are few and far between, and yet you pressed boldly onward into the heart of danger. Bravo!

—Tyrian Explorers Society

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's no human colonization going on there, and there's nothing to even suggest such a thing. Humanity has been in an decline, and humans have been losing settlement after settlement with only refugees growing to Divinity's Reach. No new settlements have been made in Kryta.

Besides which, Harathi Hinterlands was already colonized. See Portia, who lived in a village in northern Harathi Hinterlands 500 years ago. That village is long gone now - gone with Thorn's rule - but that's proof that humans had colonized the northern section of that map ages ago, not part of the modern conflict. Even Ulgoth's war camp is littered with Krytan ruins here and there, indicating that the only group to gain colonization in the region, is the centaurs.

Your claim is not only baseless, but contradicted with canon lore. Humanity is in full defensive mode in the Centaur War nowadays.

In other words, there is no indication of human expansionism. What there are only are villages, military posts that try to hold. Or trade routes that are sabotaged by bandits who practice smuggling.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The village next to the lake and the White Mantle ruins just below it are human settlements. There are citizens and children living in the village.

Seraph's Landing and Demetra are centuries old. Seraph's Landing - like Portia's burned village - existed in 800 AE during Mad King Thorn's reign. They're not colonizing that area, they've colonized. That's a HUGE difference.

They're not forcing anyone out of that area now - and there's no clear indication they did when they established those settlements.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Besides which, Harathi Hinterlands

was already colonized

. See

Portia

, who lived in a village in northern Harathi Hinterlands 500 years ago. That village is long gone now - gone with Thorn's rule - but that's proof that humans had colonized the northern section of that map ages ago, not part of the modern conflict. Even Ulgoth's war camp is littered with Krytan ruins here and there, indicating that the only group to gain colonization in the region, is the centaurs.

That's my question. "What is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population?"

The fact that they don't have a "growing human population" despite your continued claims. Humanity are on the decline, and have been since the days of GW1 (the events of GW1 were the "beginning of the end for humanity on Tyria (world)").

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm actually talking about the events that happen there. What looks like a war camp to humans, it could be a centaur village. There is a peaceful After helping the Seraph make the push to get rid of Ulgoth, then what? Are they just going to stop and tell the centaurs to stop messing with them? Of course not.

To secure the area, they have to allow human civilians to colonize the place. In which point they will have reasons to fortify the area to protect the population.

Centaurs are never peaceful, and the place is full of war leaders - you don't have that in a civilian territory.

They don't "have to allow human civilians to colonize". That's not their goal - Kryta's goal is defense not expansion - and there are many ways to stop a war than to colonize retaken territory.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:However, what is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population? The political face of the war maybe territorial dispute, but the reality of it is, the Seraph is cleaning the place of centaurs for human colonization.

In a court of law, the centaurs would probably be considered the aggressors of a territory dispute since Kryta held the land legally as recognized by all of the other leaders.

Of course, that's the thing about laws. If you conquer the territory and impose your own laws then the law favors you and your people.

Also, the centaurs don't appear to have any colonies that we can see. They have fortified war camps and temporary shelter to house their armies but nothing that I would consider a permanent residence, let alone a colony.

It is my understanding that this war is triggered by the dragons, pushing the centaurs south because of Jormag and pushing the humans north because of Zhaitan, then they clash in Harathi and fighting over who should colonize the area. If the centaurs lost their northern villages, it just makes sense if they are looking at Harathi as their future home.

As I pointed out, humans had been there for over 500 years. Zhaitan's rise did push human population north, but not their territory.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Ok I found this;After Map completion.

Tyrian Explorers SocietyHarathi Hinterlands

Salutations,

A trip through

the centaur homeland

is no small feat. Safe havens are few and far between, and yet you pressed boldly onward into the heart of danger. Bravo!

—Tyrian Explorers Society

Honestly, I'd take that with a grain of salt given all the other evidence we see, or consider it to be the centaur homeland in the sense that it's the edge of their territory.

We know for a fact humanity has thrived there for five centuries - that doesn't make it a human homeland, and this has been true since GW1. That seems more like an error on the writers' part than anything.

Or it could be referring to the fact that of the few villages out that way, only Seraph's Landing has survived, marking human's territory a loss to the centaurs in the past two centuries. Even Seraph's Landing was partially destroyed (the northern portion is in ruins and centaurs inhabit that area).

@ugrakarma.9416 said:In other words, there is no indication of human expansionism. What there are only are villages, military posts that try to hold. Or trade routes that are sabotaged by bandits who practice smuggling.

More accurate to say the military post is actually militarized village due to being on the front lines of battle. Seraph's Landing, despite its rather non-village sounding name, is a 500+ year old village.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The village next to the lake and the White Mantle ruins just below it are human settlements. There are citizens and children living in the village.

Seraph's Landing and Demetra are centuries old. Seraph's Landing - like Portia's burned village - existed in 800 BE during Mad King Thorn's reign. They're not colonizing that area, they've

colonized

. That's a

HUGE

difference.

It's just my understanding that yes, the village is old, perhaps was in ruin and inhabited. However, it seems to me that they are starting a new in that location. I doubt that those people stayed there all these time even when the centaurs are laying siege of the place.

They're not forcing anyone out of that area now - and there's no clear indication they did when they established those settlements.

I don't know about that. The Seraph has this comment;"Now that the dock at the Lake Doric has been repaired, we're able to reinforce our position here. We can finally make more focused efforts at driving the centaurs back."

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Besides which, Harathi Hinterlands

was already colonized

. See

Portia

, who lived in a village in northern Harathi Hinterlands 500 years ago. That village is long gone now - gone with Thorn's rule - but that's proof that humans had colonized the northern section of that map ages ago, not part of the modern conflict. Even Ulgoth's war camp is littered with Krytan ruins here and there, indicating that the only group to gain colonization in the region, is the centaurs.

That's my question. "What is stopping the humans from eradicating all centaurs from Harathi to make room for the growing human population?"

The fact that they don't have a "growing human population" despite your continued claims. Humanity are on the decline, and have been since the days of GW1 (the events of GW1 were the "beginning of the end for humanity on Tyria (world)").

I'm talking about refugees, not necessarily birth rate.Wiki has this bit;"Kryta, united under Queen Salma in 1088 AE, became the last stable, reasonable human nation and refugees fled to it from all of the troubled corners of the three continents. The new capital Divinity's Reach became the center of the human universe and their last hope to recover their feet even as it continues to struggle against centaurs and bandits."

I doubt that this is still accurate seeing that the Free City of Amnoon is stable and more reasonable that the Krytan rule. All I'm saying is that, during the development of the Harathi, this is the scenario. Humans fled from centaurs and the Seraph's effort is to take back the refugee's homeland in Harathi.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm actually talking about the events that happen there. What looks like a war camp to humans, it could be a centaur village. There is a peaceful After helping the Seraph make the push to get rid of Ulgoth, then what? Are they just going to stop and tell the centaurs to stop messing with them? Of course not.

To secure the area, they have to allow human civilians to colonize the place. In which point they will have reasons to fortify the area to protect the population.

Centaurs are never peaceful, and the place is full of

war leaders

- you don't have that in a civilian territory.

They don't "have to allow human civilians to colonize". That's not their goal - Kryta's goal is defense not expansion - and there are many ways to stop a war than to colonize retaken territory.

That's why my question; "Are they just going to stop and tell the centaurs to stop messing with them?"

To me, there's an ulterior motive to take the Harathi, or maybe part of it, so those who are displaced can get back. I'm just suspicious on why the Seraph is pushing too far in if not to claim the land.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Ok I found this;After Map completion.

Tyrian Explorers SocietyHarathi Hinterlands

Salutations,

A trip through

the centaur homeland

is no small feat. Safe havens are few and far between, and yet you pressed boldly onward into the heart of danger. Bravo!

—Tyrian Explorers Society

Honestly, I'd take that with a grain of salt given all the other evidence we see, or consider it to be the centaur homeland in the sense that it's the edge of their territory.

We know for a fact humanity has thrived there for five centuries - that doesn't make it a human homeland, and this has been true since GW1. That seems more like an error on the writers' part than anything.

The edge is in North Gendaran. In Harathi, one of the renown heart recognizes the area as centaur homeland too. Whether or not its an error, that's what it is.

Or it could be referring to the fact that of the few villages out that way, only Seraph's Landing has survived, marking human's territory a loss to the centaurs in the past two centuries. Even Seraph's Landing was partially destroyed (the northern portion is in ruins and centaurs inhabit that area).

It seems that village was abandoned for some time and then was recently revitalized when the Seraph pushing back. As I mentioned above, I doubt these people stayed in this location during the centaur siege at the same time cut off from supply due to what's happening in Lake Doric. The Seraph brought these people there.