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Improving the World vs. World Reward Structure


schokelmei.8271

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@ASP.8093 said:

@ASP.8093 said:Most of those cosmetics are equally desirable to WvW players. Like half the WvW population is absolutely blinged out.

Pretty sure the wvwer couldnt care less about new raptor/skyscale etc skins. Hell, i wonder of wvwers actually have skyscale. Or griffon.At least those who pve a lot, do. Theyre not too many.

Like 80-90% of my guildmates have the Vermillion Wings (we don't all wear them at the same time).

0% of us ride the default Warclaw.

WvW is a great place for playing dress-up because you see the same people habitually, and the best place for any kind of "group style" since other people will actually see your guild on the battlefield.

I literally got back into WvW because of how sick the Geode panther mount looked, after I bought it on sale. It's such a huge "quality of life" improvement. WvW is the perfect place to flex fashion.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:What does the wvwer do? The occasional 500gem bandwagon fee?

Lol, what do you mean "the occasional" bandwagon? That's probably the bulk of their sales, and the only steady income they have. :sweat_smile:WvW makes extremely steady money, something they can't rely on skins and keys and convenience items.Yet WvW gets the least attention...

Ah, yes, 40 man guilds moving to lowpop servers for 500 gems/person, and they usually convert gold to gems for that. I personally have been in enough guilds who did just that. HUGE money. Mhmmm. I get that we want desperately want more shinies from wvw, but lying about things is hardly helping anyone

I never said HUGE money, i said consistent money. When someone buys a skin, it's their forever. Bandwagoning happens every relink. And when thousands of players bandwagon, those 500 gems multiply and it doesn't seem so small anymore. Sure a percentage will convert gems for it, but some won't. Consistent profit for Anet.

Also, why are you so contrarian to every improvement idea that concernes the reward structure? You'd rather WvW stagnate forever and just eventually die? I mean, what's it even to you, you said you're already max rank with everything... So why bother? It won't affect you in the slightest, especially if they just rebalance the rewards to respect people's time instead of forcing people to make WvW their second job in order to get anything out of it.

Sorry but to me it just seems spiteful and petty...

I will say this for the last time, cause it would seem that each interaction with you comes down to the same agenda of rewards without addressing the more pressing wvw issues. Balance of classes, balance of population, ACTUAL balance and not the average "random utility has its cd increased by 5 secs". ACTUAL dev presence to weed out hackers from known servers. Making winning matter. Just naming a few, here. I am really sorry i cant sympathize with the average pver mentality of "OH LOOK, MA, SHINIES! HOW CAN I GET EM FASTER BY DOING THE SAME OR LESS WVW RELATED STUFF?" The stagnation of wvw doesnt come from the rewards (rewards are a relatively minor issue), but from the aforementioned issues. YOU want to make wvw another eotm, with pve rewards and full wvw rewards. I was there when it died. And, yes, it will affect me cause i am there for the fun. Endless queues of pvers who hunt shinies 24/7 by turning everything a ktrain will be the final coffin in wvw, people like me who like wvw will not be able to play. Yes, another ktrain is just what we need.Wvw doesn't have "thousands of players" playing regularly, let alone changing servers every 2 months.

Wvw isnt eotm, it isnt map instances where one map fills, more open. Nope. Wvw has a limited amount of people who can play. So reward change -ANY rewards change- has to be studied more. Pretty self explanatory, i believe.

If the game feels like a second job, that is on the player. I was enjoying wvw before pips came out. I dont enjoy pve raids, i dont do them. Shocker, i know. This is a game, its about having fun.

As for me being a "spiteful spirit", that is your opinion. You may have a superficial grasp of wvw and from your perspective it seems like this. This mode is much more delicate than pve raids, fractal CMs.

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This thread was going so well...then devolved into the usual name-calling...

@ArchonWing.9480 said:The only that really sucks is Memories of Battle, but at least I know I am helping out the WvW community when buying them. ;)

This I can agree with...it's subject to market fluctuations, and how did Shards of Glory in PvP manage to stay so cheap? Never buy a Mist Capacitor with MoBs...buy the PvP Shards for 1/20th of the price of MoBs and get it from the PvP vendor.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:What does the wvwer do? The occasional 500gem bandwagon fee?

Lol, what do you mean "the occasional" bandwagon? That's probably the bulk of their sales, and the only steady income they have. :sweat_smile:WvW makes extremely steady money, something they can't rely on skins and keys and convenience items.Yet WvW gets the least attention...

Ah, yes, 40 man guilds moving to lowpop servers for 500 gems/person, and they usually convert gold to gems for that. I personally have been in enough guilds who did just that. HUGE money. Mhmmm. I get that we want desperately want more shinies from wvw, but lying about things is hardly helping anyone

I never said HUGE money, i said consistent money. When someone buys a skin, it's their forever. Bandwagoning happens every relink. And when thousands of players bandwagon, those 500 gems multiply and it doesn't seem so small anymore. Sure a percentage will convert gems for it, but some won't. Consistent profit for Anet.

Also, why are you so contrarian to every improvement idea that concernes the reward structure? You'd rather WvW stagnate forever and just eventually die? I mean, what's it even to you, you said you're already max rank with everything... So why bother? It won't affect you in the slightest, especially if they just rebalance the rewards to respect people's time instead of forcing people to make WvW their second job in order to get anything out of it.

Sorry but to me it just seems spiteful and petty...

I will say this for the last time, cause it would seem that each interaction with you comes down to the same agenda of rewards without addressing the more pressing wvw issues. Balance of classes, balance of population, ACTUAL balance and not the average "random utility has its cd increased by 5 secs". ACTUAL dev presence to weed out hackers from known servers.

I also siad, numerous times in multiple threads where we had this discussion that WvW would need to get full attention and fix those issues first before they tackle rewards. Or did you forget? So no, no agenda here, but this thread is specifically about the rewards, so of course i'm going to stay on topic and discuss this part of it. That doesn't mean i don't want Anet to fix what needs to be fixed. Don't twist this out of context just because i'm staying on topic, this has nothing to do with it.

Making winning matter. Just naming a few, here.

I also, in numerous threads, numerous times mentioned a system that would do just that, but you also seem to omit what doesn't suit your argument and just blindly argue against it. There's a thread specifically geared towards making winning matter, and yes, it involves rewards, but also fixes the pasivity of WvW that everyone has a problem with (although there's no real way to passively play WvW and "afk at spawn" because participation drains to fast for this to work so idk what everyone's on about).

I am really sorry i cant sympathize with the average pver mentality of "OH LOOK, MA, SHINIES! HOW CAN I GET EM FASTER BY DOING THE SAME OR LESS WVW RELATED STUFF?"

Again, i never said i want more rewards than PvE. You're again omitting what doesn't suit your argument because reasons. I never said anyone should do less WvW for more rewards, just to balance the rewards so that you don't need to play 40 hours of it to break even or get a "shiny" in 3 years.

The stagnation of wvw doesnt come from the rewards (rewards are a relatively minor issue), but from the aforementioned issues. YOU want to make wvw another eotm, with pve rewards and full wvw rewards. I was there when it died. And, yes, it will affect me cause i am there for the fun. Endless queues of pvers who hunt shinies 24/7 by turning everything a ktrain will be the final coffin in wvw, people like me who like wvw will not be able to play. Yes, another ktrain is just what we need.

Wrong again! People are playing a game not a job. Games, especially MMO's work by giving you rewards for your effort or "shinies". What i sugested though doesn't mean that floods of PvE people will suddenly flock to WvW because the time to make a "shiny" as you derogatorily and condescendingly call it, will remain the same, with the same effor required to do it. People who wish to finish diamond each week will still have to play 40 hours of WvW to get there, the only difference is that, people who don't, won't exponentially lenghten their "shiny" acquisition to 3 years, they'll lengthen it to 1.5 or so instead of 6 months that's the minimum for a set. That still doesn't entice any PvE player to go to WvW and do shinies because if that's the case they would have done it already and we would have seen it every day in WvW but we DON'T. So no, it will not affect you or anyone because no one will do ktrains for rewards, nor will anyone get their "shiny" faster than PvE. You're just making excuses and it makes you sound bitter. Also, god forbid a PvE player actually gets interested in WvW for the shinies and ends up liking the mode and joining more fights. Queues everywhere amirite? You want more players in WvW but don't want to entice them in. That's not how games work. Some people need a "shiny" to show for their effort, and just balancing skirmish tickets, grandmaster marks, memories and gold/h to not just break even will not suddenly cause all the Raiders and Fractal people to swarm the queues, because the acquisition of the "shiny" will not change, it will still be longer and just as hard except not being insulting to people who would like to play WvW but are discouraged because they can't play all day every day and would like some reward for their time. It just might populate WvW a bit more and that's somehow a big sin now, duck everyone for thinking WvW should be a bit more rewarding right cause "karma trains". Karma trains are a lazy excuse for not wanting improvements because it will selfishly impact you in some way, except it won't so the argument falls flat every time you say it.

Wvw doesn't have "thousands of players" playing regularly, let alone changing servers every 2 months.

Yes it does, there's 2 regions with a bunch of servers each, most of them full or high, you can't seriously tell me that's just a "few hundreds of players" with a straight face, come on.

Wvw isnt eotm, it isnt map instances where one map fills, more open. Nope. Wvw has a limited amount of people who can play. So reward change -ANY rewards change- has to be studied more. Pretty self explanatory, i believe.

See my previous quote. You're blowing it out of proportion because of your stubbornness while in reality, all it will do is at "worst" get some new people in that don't have the time to 24/7 in WvW, and at best balance the population a bit by bringing in people who are willing to do WvW for "shinies" and do it properly if there's also an active system involved in getting them. And if there IS an active system implemented, you can forget about all those PvE karma train people because they won't be able to clog up the servers "afk-ing at spawn", they'l actually have to play WvW. And if they play WvW - how is that a bad thing if you want more population in WvW? And if you don't want more population, then you're beign again, very selfish and disingenuous about your arguments.

If the game feels like a second job, that is on the player. I was enjoying wvw before pips came out. I dont enjoy pve raids, i dont do them. Shocker, i know. This is a game, its about having fun.

No, that's on the company. Not everyone can enjoy something just for the sake of it. I can, you can, but people who would like WvW but can' be bothered because they're disappointed that their time there won't mean any "gain", won't. And a mode can't survive on just the people who are there "just because", moreso because i see a lot of those people leaving anyway.

As for me being a "spiteful spirit", that is your opinion. You may have a superficial grasp of wvw and from your perspective it seems like this. This mode is much more delicate than pve raids, fractal CMs.

Yes, i said as much, it's my opinion and that's how you came across to me. As for my grasp of WvW, again, don't mistake my grasp solely based on me staying on topic in this thread and arguing within its confines. I'm just not arguing other stuff because it would be off topic, but i also on multiple times said - which again didn't suit your argument so you conveniently forgot it - that any reward system they put in place will need to be carefuly balanced to not upset the mode.

But i'm just here for the shinies.

If you can't be honest in what my arguments were when quoting me, please don't bother quoting me in the future. Thank you.

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the bling-bling statement is just correct... i use standard models even bc of all the crazy glowing shiny characters in Wvw hurt the performance of my potatoe laptop lol.

i also bought several optical stuff, like infusions from trade post or or just recently the shiny blueglowing scythe staff skin from the gemstore. but as said, abandoning Wvw as it is been done since i play is not gonna make me throw real money into them. on other games it makes sense that u buy a DLC every 4 months for 10-20 € bc u support them and get content.

here, if ur mainly Wvw'er, there is not a lot of content to get. people might buy golem skins or maybe even keep colouring scheme skins (like stuff that u can either guildbind or manually apply, again said: the how isn't our job)

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@"Veprovina.4876" said:It won't affect you in the slightest, especially if they just rebalance the rewards to respect people's time instead of forcing people to make WvW their second job in order to get anything out of it.You either play for fun, loot, or both. What forces anybody other than their own mentality and perspective?(although there's no real way to passively play WvW and "afk at spawn" because participation drains to fast for this to work so idk what everyone's on about).No this is completely possible to be afk or semi-afk for the time in between certain actions based off of what you did last(5-10 minutes worth before decay even begins)

I am really sorry i cant sympathize with the average pver mentality of "OH LOOK, MA, SHINIES! HOW CAN I GET EM FASTER BY DOING THE SAME OR LESS WVW RELATED STUFF?"

Again, i never said i want more rewards than PvE. You're again omitting what doesn't suit your argument because reasons. I never said anyone should do less WvW for more rewards, just to balance the rewards so that you don't need to play 40 hours of it to break even or get a "shiny" in 3 years.He didn't say better than pve, but making it flat would make it faster by doing the same or less stuff. My goal is to finish gold each week in the 3 nights I lead my guild, a flat scale would make chests equal to gold or platinum, so in my playtime I would get a lot more skirmish tickets for my same amount of time(aka faster).

Wrong again! People are playing a
game
not a job.

So stop talking about hours, pay, and benefits.

**the acquisition of the "shiny" will not change, it will still be longer and just as hard except not being insulting to people who would like to play WvW but are discouragedIt would speed up for me and people that main other modes, would bring more people in, but would also have some current ones leave sooner with the time they could free up for other modes since they get their first 100 tickets much quicker. Overall it would totally change.

Wvw isnt eotm, it isnt map instances where one map fills, more open. Nope. Wvw has a limited amount of people who can play. So reward change -ANY rewards change- has to be studied more. Pretty self explanatory, i believe.I do agree with this statement from Voltekka, but then see below for more from Veprovina.See my previous quote. You're blowing it out of proportion because of your stubbornness while in reality, all it will do is at
"worst"
get some new people in that don't have the time to 24/7 in WvW, and at best balance the population a bit by bringing in people who are willing to do WvW for "shinies" and do it properly if there's also an active system involved in getting them. And if there IS an active system implemented, you can forget about all those PvE karma train people because they won't be able to clog up the servers "afk-ing at spawn", they'l actually have to play WvW. And if they play WvW - how is that a bad thing if you want more population in WvW? And if you don't want more population, then you're beign again, very selfish and disingenuous about your arguments.Depends on what this active system would be based on, we have ALREADY seen objective trading and kill trading. Are we gonna base it on something else?If the game feels like a second job, that is on the player. I was enjoying wvw before pips came out. I dont enjoy pve raids, i dont do them. Shocker, i know. This is a game, its about having fun.

No, that's on the company. Not everyone can enjoy something just for the sake of it. I can, you can, but people who would like WvW but can' be bothered because they're disappointed that their time there won't mean any "gain", won't. And a mode can't survive on just the people who are there "just because", moreso because i see a lot of those people leaving anyway.

Terrible when a game can't survive because people don't find it fun, and you see the ones who find it fun are the ones leaving? Does this make sense?

Truthfully people should be fairly happy that legendary is a real option in wvw. You can thank the company for that!

Hope I didn't both up the quotes too bad on this phone hehe

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@Sylvyn.4750 said:This thread was going so well...then devolved into the usual name-calling...

@ArchonWing.9480 said:The only that really sucks is Memories of Battle, but at least I know I am helping out the WvW community when buying them. ;)

This I can agree with...it's subject to market fluctuations, and how did Shards of Glory in PvP manage to stay so cheap? Never buy a Mist Capacitor with MoBs...
buy the PvP Shards for 1/20th of the price of MoBs and get it from the PvP vendor.

Young cat... I always forget that.. Thanknyou for the public service reminder!! ?

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@"Dinas Dragonbane.2978"Wvw is a endgame format. MMOs are still about farm, pvp modes are supposed to be a pretty good farm normally. has nothing to do with it beeing a game. ppl invest a lot of time into playing Wvw overall, there is no reason to argue against better rewards and reward structure. legendary armor isn't of that much use to me personally as one piece of it is extremly expensive and only "paying off" if u mainly play one armor size. heck, even buying a new character slot and ascending him out is cheaper than few legendary armor pieces, i guess.

the format of Wvw does survive. just, it's nothing but a shadow of last year with each passing year. guilds are constantly dissolving or pausing, because players feel not appreciated by a company who seems to ignore Wvw entirely for years. few veterans stubbornly play still after many years, but probably far more did quit yet or pause at least.

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@Dinas Dragonbane.2978there is no reason to argue against better rewards and reward structure.

We have already gone over how people have achieved rewards by kill trading, rotational keep/objective trading, and semi-playing afk. Depending on how rewards are improved is likely to increase some or all of that, and none of that counts as good. I have to say there IS reason to argue against better rewards and structure. Any proposed improvements would need to be fleshed out well.

the format of Wvw does survive. just, it's nothing but a shadow of last year with each passing year. guilds are constantly dissolving or pausing, because players feel not appreciated by a company who seems to ignore Wvw entirely for years. few veterans stubbornly play still after many years, but probably far more did quit yet or pause at least.

I have been here the whole time so this part I understand except I don't blame anet hesitating on any change, because it's never good enough for we the community, who tear the work apart.

As a side note, who remembers when they took out rewards for escorts because of bots escorting yaks everywhere? I was glad that returned recently.

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@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:Since map completion doesn't count for wvw maps anymore, could there be a weekly reset and then a wvw based map completion reward? What potential problems could arise from a system such as this? Though ha, if you reset the map that would also reset explored waypoints, hehe.

I think it would encourage ktraining (since you really want to break into every objective — this wasn't as much a thing under normal old WvW map completion since you'd just wait for your team's colors to rotate) and also you'd see a bunch of players wasting their time trying to jump-jump up to the various out-of-the-way vistas.

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Wvw has no waypoint at reset anyways, those never counted as "map completition". it was only the vistas that u can only reach if u own the respective objectives. (ergo, either conquer them to use, or wait till you are that color) ... nothing would actually change, people try to sneak keeps all the time for fun.

@"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" "the community tears the work apart"... there been only 1% of the things that have changed since feb2019 when i first entered Wvw, which have not been completely random and unecessary changes. of course, u can label also 70-80% as simply "whatever", bc it have been changes without any real use or effect.

as such: the Stonemist wall changes, the wall invuln changes on some towers, the newly added optical trees, the removing of Ekko @ red border, some of the balance changes (as in, nerfing stuff that nobody anyways used)

they also cannot expect to get props for the warclaw introduction. it created more bugs and glitches that took another some months to fix... cannot applaud them on fixing stuff they broke with this themselves.nobody really wanted mounts, then they got promised as beeing useful, and after one year later roughly it got nerfed so hard into the ground that it is not actually of much real use. it only lets players respawn faster effectively, leading to more yolo and making the maps feel even smaller than they are yet. ... and in all those years, warclaw was the only sort of "content" addition. big yikes.

one good change, in fact the only really sense making change they produced as far as i remember, was the dragonbanner nerf - then again, binding its use to the map segment would been enough, now it got overnerfed. in fact, they nerfed its dmg before they did the segmentbinding of it, pretty weird.

there'd need to be new, powerful siege with other limits. or options to upgrade mobile siege into various modes, same as defensive ones. then u can up the wall bulk a bit again. (walls/gates melt far 2 fast for the speed of player movement on the maps)

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