Warrior block should be half the cd of Ranger counterattack.

[Quadox.7834]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@snoow.1694 said:Spellbreaker can currently sustain itself better than any Guardian spec can. Let‘s not forget Full Counter, a heal with low cooldown, high mobility & stunbreak with charges.

I don't want to play Spellbreaker. If Spellbreaker needs to be nerfed to balance the other two variants, then do it. Right now Spellbreaker is barely viable (as a sidenoder, it is inferior to several other classes; which, mind you would be fine if it could do anything other than sidenode meanderingly, see below) and the other two variants aren't.

Yes, it isn‘t good as sidenoder compared to Soulbeasts or Condi Revs, that is true, but as a duelist it can beat most other classes. Once Ranger & Revs and maybe Weavers are nerfed in terms of sustain, Warrior can become the most dominant sidenoder, no buffs needed

I don't want to nerf three classes just to balance my own. Give me a couple more seconds of damage mitigation and you can keep everything else where it is.

@Quadox.7834 said:warrior has higher base health and armor than ranger and higher hps, it doesn't need to block as much

Fair, but the expectation of damage delivered to ranger vs damage delivered to warrior skews the MU in the rangers favor (or, perhaps I should say the armor rating and hp difference doesn't justify warrior having to eat the damage).

@Dadnir.5038 said:From my point of view, the warrior's equivalent of ranger's only block are

Full counter

(12s CD),

counter blow

(10s CD) and

Riposte

(15s CD). Ranger's

counter attack

being on a 30s CD itself. There is no equivalent of shield stance on ranger.Now, if you think that the warrior's access to

endure pain

-like skills is unfair compared to the soulbeast, I totally agree with you. And I'd say that it's amplified by the fact that soulbeast have generous access to semi passive damage reduction and evade skills.

Fair.

@Dadnir.5038 said:That said, Spellbreaker can have disturbingly high amount of self-sustain so maybe it's balanced.

No.Fix the other two specs.

war might not do great into ranger but it does better into prot holo than ranger does.

[Vancho.8750]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@snoow.1694 said:Spellbreaker can currently sustain itself better than any Guardian spec can. Let‘s not forget Full Counter, a heal with low cooldown, high mobility & stunbreak with charges.

I don't want to play Spellbreaker. If Spellbreaker needs to be nerfed to balance the other two variants, then do it. Right now Spellbreaker is barely viable (as a sidenoder, it is inferior to several other classes; which, mind you would be fine if it could do anything other than sidenode meanderingly, see below) and the other two variants aren't.

Yes, it isn‘t good as sidenoder compared to Soulbeasts or Condi Revs, that is true, but as a duelist it can beat most other classes. Once Ranger & Revs and maybe Weavers are nerfed in terms of sustain, Warrior can become the most dominant sidenoder, no buffs needed

I don't want to nerf three classes just to balance my own. Give me a couple more seconds of damage mitigation and you can keep everything else where it is.

@Quadox.7834 said:warrior has higher base health and armor than ranger and higher hps, it doesn't need to block as much

Fair, but the expectation of damage delivered to ranger vs damage delivered to warrior skews the MU in the rangers favor (or, perhaps I should say the armor rating and hp difference doesn't justify warrior having to eat the damage).

@Dadnir.5038 said:From my point of view, the warrior's equivalent of ranger's only block are

Full counter

(12s CD),

counter blow

(10s CD) and

Riposte

(15s CD). Ranger's

counter attack

being on a 30s CD itself. There is no equivalent of shield stance on ranger.Now, if you think that the warrior's access to

endure pain

-like skills is unfair compared to the soulbeast, I totally agree with you. And I'd say that it's amplified by the fact that soulbeast have generous access to semi passive damage reduction and evade skills.

Fair.

@Dadnir.5038 said:That said, Spellbreaker can have disturbingly high amount of self-sustain so maybe it's balanced.

No.Fix the other two specs.

war might not do great into ranger but it does better into prot holo than ranger does.War is just not versatile as ranger or any class for that matter, since it usually ends up being good at one thing which is fine as a design choice, the problem comes when it is not the best at this thing since everything else can do extra stuff.Also it is kinda shit when other classes take the best parts of some specks for less investment like Ranger having the default GS Shield set up on warrior with just GS grab SB and your pet skills are just better burst skills or how Holo has the best traits that made Hot berserker work just in the elite, this homogenizing is not good for the game, cause stuff loses their purpose.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Math.5123 said:Between 25% movespeed, rush, whirling attack, double dagger leaps, tether, bulls charge and Rampage. I don't know how you can possibly get kited by someone holding W.

As long as you dodge burst skills and don't get tethered, Trapper rune providing stealth, superspeed, and in some cases area denial allows you to kite war as DH.

All I'm looking for is 10 seconds off a shield cd on a weapon dedicated for blocking. I'm not looking to make classes mechanically homogenous or objectively fair.

[Lighter.5631]

@Math.5123 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Math.5123 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Math.5123 said:Yeah, no. The damage evasion isn't what's wrong with warrior. You already have evades built into gs, utilities and class mechanics. Adding more blocks will fix absolutely nothing to your losing match-ups while you'll just forever stall your already winning ones.

Reducing the mobility of other classes is the only buff warrior needs.

and that would take way more work then doable lol.first of all, warrior barely catches anyone even in vanilla, not even mentioning expansions giving out free mobility, with daredevil, soulbeast, druid, holo, dragon hunter etc.second of all, that would include teleports.

even rampage is easily kitable over stairs for how kitten warrior movement skills are, even tho rampage has a 3 second CD gap closer.you would need heavy mobility nerf across board and i don't think people will be happy or anet will be willing to put the effort.i only suggested removing runes of speed and lynx and traveler back then and people heavily flamed.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:Warrior block is plenty short enough CD. It's ranger block that's the issue. Ranger should have like 1/2 the block duration and then the block can be CANCELED if the player decides to counterattack.

the block can already be canceled if ranger decides to counterattack

As for warrior if you lower shieldblock CD warrior will be OP, and by warrior I mean spellbreaker, shield buff alone wont make core/berk good, and fullcounter + free stats carry spb into viability hard, you would need to nerf spb hard to make buffs for core/berk to not make spb overpowered

buffing shield would make spellbreaker OP because? you don't seem to understand how and why underpowered warrior currently is.

If you can't catch a dh as a spellbreaker, the class isn't the issue

if you can't kit spellbreaker as DH, you may as well not play PvP at allthe only thing u need to kit a warrior even on spellbreaker is WASD, dodge key and spacebar.standing still on a node isnt kitting btw.

Between 25% movespeed, rush, whirling attack, double dagger leaps, tether, bulls charge and Rampage. I don't know how you can possibly get kited by someone holding W.

try to learn how to press WASD and dodge key properlypro tip, rampage can be nullified by walking around stairs and shield bash can be avoided by jumping.

[Abyssisis.3971]

So you are asking for a 12 sec CD 3 sec block when traited on shield? That’s a bit much, especially considering the amount of other skills/traits for damage immunity/reduction warrior has.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Abyssisis.3971 said:So you are asking for a 12 sec CD 3 sec block when traited on shield? That’s a bit much, especially considering the amount of other skills/traits for damage immunity/reduction warrior has.@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Bad take but unironic. Exaggeration in title. I'll take 20 seconds baseline.

The untraited cd is 30 seconds. I would like 20 untraited.

especially considering the amount of other skills/traits for damage immunity/reduction warrior has.

List the ones that aren't full counter and explain how they are excessive enough to not warrant the block change.

[Abyssisis.3971]

Yeah, sorry, used the pve CD, instead of pvp. Would be 16 when traited. Still too much tho.

[Lighter.5631]

doesnt really matter tho, shield change isnt the change that will bring warrior back to meta without over buffing to OPness, warrior need more functionality in it's kits.or it will just continue the cycle of only being desirable and meta when its OP can destroy everyone in side node and get QQed in forum and nerfed in 2 months and be useless for the next 8 months and repeat.

why would you play warrior if it is 5:5 against holo/rev, when holo/rev brings so much more utility for his team in bigger fights other then 1v1.

[Math.5123]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Math.5123 said:Between 25% movespeed, rush, whirling attack, double dagger leaps, tether, bulls charge and Rampage. I don't know how you can possibly get kited by someone holding W.

As long as you dodge burst skills and don't get tethered, Trapper rune providing stealth, superspeed, and in some cases area denial allows you to kite war as DH.

All I'm looking for is 10 seconds off a shield cd on a weapon dedicated for blocking. I'm not looking to make classes mechanically homogenous or objectively fair.

And as long as you dodge Trueshot and don't walk over test of faith, you can't die. Warrior is fine as is. Just nerf other side-noders.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:cmc normally does a decent job with understanding which classes need balancing and why, his only major flaw is that he incorrectly believes that "Just increase the cooldown" reduces spam when in fact exactly the opposite is true. Cooldowns don't cause spam. Low cast times/poor animation quality without tradeoffs or downsides, and occasionally just poor skill design, are what cause spam. Blindly increasing cooldowns just makes it so +1ing becomes more effective. With defensive skills on a higher cooldown, it is much harder to punish zergers and thus zerging and spamming a single target becomes more effective.

Pretty much all cooldown/resource nerfs with a few exceptions in the past year can and should be reverted. The only thing that was ever really needed was the damage nerfs to de-escalate the power creep, and the sustain nerfs to prevent the damage nerfs from leading to bunker meta.

You do know that the balance team only can change numbers?

It's another team that changes skills/traits and they are busy with EoD.

That's why we still have the 300s CD traits.

Cmc simply can't replace them.

[Lighter.5631]

@Math.5123 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Math.5123 said:Between 25% movespeed, rush, whirling attack, double dagger leaps, tether, bulls charge and Rampage. I don't know how you can possibly get kited by someone holding W.

As long as you dodge burst skills and don't get tethered, Trapper rune providing stealth, superspeed, and in some cases area denial allows you to kite war as DH.

All I'm looking for is 10 seconds off a shield cd on a weapon dedicated for blocking. I'm not looking to make classes mechanically homogenous or objectively fair.

And as long as you dodge Trueshot and don't walk over test of faith, you can't die. Warrior is fine as is. Just nerf other side-noders.

and as long as you WASD you don't die to warrior either, whats your point?

clearly you havent think really far. everything else is fine, warrior is not fine.you only think warrior is fine, because it does OK in 1v1,but why is prot holo, condi rev meta and not warrior, do they beat warrior? no they don't beat warrior, but why are they meta, have you ever thought of that.because the utility they bring to the team, while warrior is basically selfish.how will you nerf other side noders? to been inferior to 1v1ing warrior again? that would only lead to warrior getting nerfed for being "op" again.every time warrior is pick only because it dominates in side node and destroy everybody, then quickly nerfed later, because dominating everybody is OP.

when warrior vs holo 5:5, why would you pick a warrior when holo gives to team aoe prot, aoe stun, aoe pull, aoe knock down, aoe knock back, aoe cleanse, poison field, water field, blind field, weakness for fights bigger then 1v1.

i used to think warrior is fine because it actually does ok in side node 1v1 with minimum tuning, then i realized, that's not it.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Lighter.5631 said:if you can't kit spellbreaker as DH, you may as well not play PvP at allthe only thing u need to kit a warrior even on spellbreaker is WASD, dodge key and spacebar.standing still on a node isnt kitting btw.

you managed to misspell kite in every way imaginable, JUS sayin.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm reproposing this as stated in the original post, given the recent tournament class turnout results (no warrior representation) and the prevalence of River Drake.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Reading through the past few pages of comments leaves me shaking my head...do half these people even play warrior?

 

It's not "fine" and it's not "balanced"; it is, as you pointed out, is absent from high level play in the MAT (and the meta as a whole).  The reasons for this are numerous and discussed in depth on the Warrior forums.

 

Suffice it to say, reducing shield CD is NOT going to make warrior meta or OP. I dont think a 3s block should be on a 20 (16)s CD, but a modest reduction to 25 (20)s would be fine. I don't think it's Warrior's most pressing need, but it would help a little.