Make all elite spec weapons available for core!

[Quadox.7834]

1. Increases options & diversity
2. Diversity and options improves balance (read JusticeRetroHunter)
3. More fun and theory-crafting
4. They can still be paid content (unlocked by buying expansions) just as they are now.
5. Would greatly benefit certain lacking professions, especially engineer.
6. No reason not to.

Discuss

[Leonidrex.5649]

there are 3 reasons why it could be problematic.1 weapons with specific e-spec mechanics, but holo sword might be the only one.2 weapons that are tied to e-spec that are balanced around it to an extentfor example, core thief with rifle could be stupid as fuck in pvp, and how would stealth rifle shot work? with no malice?3 using 2 e-spec weapons could make some ridiculous combinations.axe/shield on mesmer comes to mind.watching staff/rifle core thief would be funny, lol

EDITits one of those things that would take decent time to make it work, but it also would be a really fun thing to add.there is a reason why loads of people want 2hander added to their class, as it adds the most new skills, same thing applies here, more options

[Stand The Wall.6987]

this would be a lot of fun. the only thing that would be wonky is weaver sword but that wouldn't be too hard to fix. i don't think there are any overperforming weapons atm, are there? game really needs more options, has been this way since day 1.

[Bazsi.2734]

What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

[Avatar.3568]

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:there are 3 reasons why it could be problematic.1 weapons with specific e-spec mechanics, but holo sword might be the only one.

Off the top of my head, Mirage Axe arguably, Druid staff maybe?

2 weapons that are tied to e-spec that are balanced around it to an extentfor example, core thief with rifle could be stupid as kitten in pvp, and how would stealth rifle shot work? with no malice?

Core thief with rifle would be pretty terrible. Its worse than DE rifle (which isnt already good), since you replace steal with one that gets you close, and you dont have anything you can do up close. Also you lack the ability to activate the stealth attack. A bigger worry to me would be something like burn guard getting access to Axe.

3 using 2 e-spec weapons could make some ridiculous combinations.axe/shield on mesmer comes to mind.watching staff/rifle core thief would be funny, lol

This could be solved just by making it locked to one per loadout? Also, Staff/Rifle thief would be one of the worst builds ever imagined.

EDITits one of those things that would take decent time to make it work, but it also would be a really fun thing to add.there is a reason why loads of people want 2hander added to their class, as it adds the most new skills, same thing applies here, more options

It would certainly help core engineer, to finally have a power weapon worth using. Though it might also be chaotic enough to cause issues.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

You take berserker, and equip a dagger mainhand. Whats your F1?You stay core thief, you equip rifle. How does anything work on that build? etc.

[Quadox.7834]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:there are 3 reasons why it could be problematic.1 weapons with specific e-spec mechanics, but holo sword might be the only one.

Off the top of my head, Mirage Axe arguably, Druid staff maybe?Mirage axe in what way? De-targeting? No, that exists on mirror images.

2 weapons that are tied to e-spec that are balanced around it to an extentfor example, core thief with rifle could be stupid as kitten in pvp, and how would stealth rifle shot work? with no malice?

Core thief with rifle would be pretty terrible. Its worse than DE rifle (which isnt already good), since you replace steal with one that gets you close, and you dont have anything you can do up close. Also you lack the ability to activate the stealth attack. A bigger worry to me would be something like burn guard getting access to Axe.That's true, it would be terrible, but that luckily isn't a problem, it would only be a problem if it would be too strong.

3 using 2 e-spec weapons could make some ridiculous combinations.axe/shield on mesmer comes to mind.watching staff/rifle core thief would be funny, lol

This could be solved just by making it locked to one per loadout? Also, Staff/Rifle thief would be one of the worst builds ever imagined.Yeah you could limit it like that if it would become a problem, but I can't say I see it. For example, axe/shield mesmer doesn't sound like a particularly busted set in my opinion. Torch is mesmer's best offhand, not shield. But there could be a combination I'm forgetting on one of the classes.

EDITits one of those things that would take decent time to make it work, but it also would be a really fun thing to add.there is a reason why loads of people want 2hander added to their class, as it adds the most new skills, same thing applies here, more options

It would certainly help core engineer, to finally have a power weapon worth using. Though it might also be chaotic enough to cause issues.Some chaos is really fun - new expansions are chaotic, but also fun and refreshing.

[Quadox.7834]

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

?!??!????!???????????? Does meta druid use staff? Does meta daredevil use staff? Does Burn DH use longbow? Does meta tempest use warhorn? Does power herald use shield? Does condi chrono use shield? Does meta scourge use torch? Does meta reaper use greatsword???!!!?!?!?????!???

[Quadox.7834]

Okay, good discussion. Things that would need to be added:

• Berserker burst skill for dagger (1 total)
• More? Can't think of anything. Weaver dual skills don't depend on offhand. So far, seems very possible for expansion-worthy content.

[Quadox.7834]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

You take berserker, and equip a dagger mainhand. Whats your F1?You stay core thief, you equip rifle. How does anything work on that build? etc.

What wouldn't work on core thief rifle? Sure, it would be terrible bcs no stealth on dodge and steal puts you in melee and so on, but that's not a problem (it would only be a problem if it were too strong).

[Shao.7236]

Sword/Shield + Shortbow Core Revenant would be pretty awesome to me despite the thematic issues.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

You take berserker, and equip a dagger mainhand. Whats your F1?You stay core thief, you equip rifle. How does anything work on that build? etc.

What wouldn't work on core thief rifle? Sure, it would be terrible bcs no stealth on dodge and steal puts you in melee and so on, but that's not a problem (it would only be a problem if it were too strong).

I'm going to reverse the question, what would work on core rifle thief? Losing the malice mechanic means you get no stealth and deal no damage, losing the deadeye traits means you have no initiative management and even less stealth. You're basicly a free kill.Same with core thief on staff. You lose initiative and endurance management tools, and weakness application. But you're still forced to staying mostly melee, without the tools to stay alive in melee.

I could go through every class and every e-spec weapon, which I'm not going to do. Half of them would be just pointless, some of them would be outright terrible like the thief ones, and some of them would greatly benefit the class. So some classes would get something, others would get nothing.The release of EoD will bring enough new skills/combos and chaos to entertain you. We don't need this additional tinkering with a well thought out e-spec system.

[Fueki.4753]

This topic pops up again and again.And I'm still against it.The weapons are part of the elite specializations and should stay that way.

[Quadox.7834]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

You take berserker, and equip a dagger mainhand. Whats your F1?You stay core thief, you equip rifle. How does anything work on that build? etc.

What wouldn't work on core thief rifle? Sure, it would be terrible bcs no stealth on dodge and steal puts you in melee and so on, but that's not a problem (it would only be a problem if it were too strong).

I'm going to reverse the question, what would work on core rifle thief? Losing the malice mechanic means you get no stealth and deal no damage, losing the deadeye traits means you have no initiative management and even less stealth. You're basicly a free kill.Same with core thief on staff. You lose initiative and endurance management tools, and weakness application. But you're still forced to staying mostly melee, without the tools to stay alive in melee.

I could go through every class and every e-spec weapon, which I'm not going to do. Half of them would be just pointless, some of them would be outright terrible like the thief ones, and some of them would greatly benefit the class. So some classes would get something, others would get nothing.The release of EoD will bring enough new skills/combos and chaos to entertain you. We don't need this additional tinkering with a well thought out e-spec system.

1. Well thought out espec system. okay, that's a good one.
2. So because it doesn't give thief any new viable options, you just cannot tolerate that most other professions get more options to tinker with, at minimum work on anet's part compared to, say, designing a new weapon. so far the missing berserker burst skill for dagger is the only thing I know that would need to be added. What a terrible mentality.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Fueki.4753 said:This topic pops up again and again.And I'm still against it.The weapons are part of the elite specializations and should stay that way.

you said you are against it but never said why

[Fueki.4753]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:This topic pops up again and again.And I'm still against it.The weapons are part of the elite specializations and should stay that way.

you said you are against it but never said why

My reason is in line three of what you quoted.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:What would be the point of elite specialisations then?

The class mechanic changes, tho I do not like that idea too

You take berserker, and equip a dagger mainhand. Whats your F1?You stay core thief, you equip rifle. How does anything work on that build? etc.

What wouldn't work on core thief rifle? Sure, it would be terrible bcs no stealth on dodge and steal puts you in melee and so on, but that's not a problem (it would only be a problem if it were too strong).

I'm going to reverse the question, what would work on core rifle thief? Losing the malice mechanic means you get no stealth and deal no damage, losing the deadeye traits means you have no initiative management and even less stealth. You're basicly a free kill.Same with core thief on staff. You lose initiative and endurance management tools, and weakness application. But you're still forced to staying mostly melee, without the tools to stay alive in melee.

I could go through every class and every e-spec weapon, which I'm not going to do. Half of them would be just pointless, some of them would be outright terrible like the thief ones, and some of them would greatly benefit the class. So some classes would get something, others would get nothing.The release of EoD will bring enough new skills/combos and chaos to entertain you. We don't need this additional tinkering with a well thought out e-spec system.

1. Well thought out espec system. okay, that's a good one.

Thats a subjective opinion of mine. If we look at the objective facts though: the 4 pillars of an elite specialisation are: new weapon, new tratline, new support skills, altered class mechanic. The reasoning you gave to erase one of these is... "diversity and more options improves balance" (thats a hot take) and "no reason not to".

2. So because it doesn't give thief any new viable options, you just cannot tolerate that most other professions get more options to tinker with, at minimum work on anet's part compared to, say, designing a new weapon. so far the missing berserker burst skill for dagger is the only thing I know that would need to be added. What a terrible mentality.

I like how you assume just because I explained one example in detail that that must be the only reason. Sword would be just as useless in the hands of a core ele or core engineer, core guardian with longbow would be able to stack so many modifiers that it could oneshot squishies from 1200+1500 range with true shot(power DH at least needs to tether you first), and the list goes on.There would be overpowered and useless combos all over the place. Balance in general would be worse until the devs make several balance passes to tone down the outliers, and several currently balanced builds/combos would be ruined in the process. And after all this work, we MIGHT not be worse off than we are today.So it's not minimal work, it would harm balance instead of helping it, and in general it would add to the chaos right along/before EoD release. And you call my mentality terrible right after arguing that giving unfair advantages to only some classes is cool... thats funny.I value balance and fairness, guess I'm just that kind of a horrible person.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

@Bazsi.2734 said:I could go through every class and every e-spec weapon, which I'm not going to do. Half of them would be just pointless, some of them would be outright terrible like the thief ones, and some of them would greatly benefit the class. So some classes would get something, others would get nothing.The release of EoD will bring enough new skills/combos and chaos to entertain you. We don't need this additional tinkering with a well thought out e-spec system.

Sorry brother I read axe\shield mesmer and stopped listening to every other opinion. Make it happen!

[UNOwen.7132]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:there are 3 reasons why it could be problematic.1 weapons with specific e-spec mechanics, but holo sword might be the only one.

Off the top of my head, Mirage Axe arguably, Druid staff maybe?Mirage axe in what way? De-targeting? No, that exists on mirror images.

Ambush, its central to the weapon.

2 weapons that are tied to e-spec that are balanced around it to an extentfor example, core thief with rifle could be stupid as kitten in pvp, and how would stealth rifle shot work? with no malice?

Core thief with rifle would be pretty terrible. Its worse than DE rifle (which isnt already good), since you replace steal with one that gets you close, and you dont have anything you can do up close. Also you lack the ability to activate the stealth attack. A bigger worry to me would be something like burn guard getting access to Axe.That's true, it would be terrible, but that luckily isn't a problem, it would only be a problem if it would be too strong.

True, which it wouldnt be. But burn guard with axe? Now thats risky.

3 using 2 e-spec weapons could make some ridiculous combinations.axe/shield on mesmer comes to mind.watching staff/rifle core thief would be funny, lol

This could be solved just by making it locked to one per loadout? Also, Staff/Rifle thief would be one of the worst builds ever imagined.Yeah you could limit it like that if it would become a problem, but I can't say I see it. For example, axe/shield mesmer doesn't sound like a particularly busted set in my opinion. Torch is mesmer's best offhand, not shield. But there could be a combination I'm forgetting on one of the classes.

Could replace pistol on the condi mesmer loadout? About my only guess though.

EDITits one of those things that would take decent time to make it work, but it also would be a really fun thing to add.there is a reason why loads of people want 2hander added to their class, as it adds the most new skills, same thing applies here, more options

It would certainly help core engineer, to finally have a power weapon worth using. Though it might also be chaotic enough to cause issues.Some chaos is really fun - new expansions are chaotic, but also fun and refreshing.

Sure.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:This topic pops up again and again.And I'm still against it.The weapons are part of the elite specializations and should stay that way.

you said you are against it but never said why

My reason is in line three of what you quoted.

no you didnt, you said they SHOULD stay part of elite specialization, never explain why.

[Super Hayes.6890]

This was the best and worst thing about GW1. There were so many options and all weapons were available to all classes so you could do anything. This was terrible for balance and there were soooooooo many useless skills in the end. I want access to elite spec weapons on core in GW2 but I get why it wasn't done that way.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:This was the best and worst thing about GW1. There were so many options and all weapons were available to all classes so you could do anything. This was terrible for balance and there were soooooooo many useless skills in the end. I want access to elite spec weapons on core in GW2 but I get why it wasn't done that way.

imagine if all professions in gw2 could use all other professions weapons both core and expac... lol what a fest that would be.

[Lucentfir.7430]

I like this, people acknowledging that the weapons themselves are balanced around being tied to an E-spec, and why they shouldn't be given to the base class but at the same time knowing that if the weapon itself is too powerful, it basically signals it's an upgrade from the core class that conflicts with the whole "especs should be a side grade, and an alternative playstyle, and not a direct upgrade."

Weapons should stay with their respective E-specs as they're designed with the specs they came out with in mind. Getting diversity and options back would require Anet to move off course of the type of odd hammer balancing they've been doing since the February patch. Then the tough to swallow pill would be for some people living on the concept of E-specs being a side grade/alternative playstyle that should not be better than core to let go of their original understanding of the statement when E-specs were first introduced . This is actually a really hard concept to pull off because how exactly do you make every E-spec provide a alternative playstyle with a different set of mechanics skill without making it better than core? It either ends up being better because the new options synergies with a bunch of old options, or it lesser because it's worse than running core in almost every case and in any case why would you run it in the first place if you penalizing yourself for lesser benefits?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Super Hayes.6890" said:This was the best and worst thing about GW1. There were so many options and all weapons were available to all classes so you could do anything. This was terrible for balance and there were soooooooo many useless skills in the end. I want access to elite spec weapons on core in GW2 but I get why it wasn't done that way.

What balance problems was there really in gw1 though? The only real balance issue was Melle Hate, which was that most melle builds had very very hard counters in the form of blind from a blind bot ele and mesmer hexes.

Blind back in guild wars 1, made you completely invalid in gw1 as a melle class. Gw2's blind is a mercy in comparison. 90% miss rate on all attacks for the duration, which back then can be perma'd by a single blind bot ele on 2 and sometimes 3 melle players. Oppressive is hardly a fitting word for what this single mechanic did to melle and it was the only real problem in the game.

Even with this Melle hate problem, it wasn't enough to subdue the diversity of the game...the diversity was so robust, that the game still remained balanced for the most part and why they never changed it for years because the counter to blind bot Ele, was a healer that could cleanse you of those conditions. (or bringing blind immunity)

Mind you, this archived page here is the list of the builds that were played in ranked arena, that performed enough in competitive formats to deserve a spot on a page. This is merely a fraction of the builds that were played as the website they us-to have these builds hosted was closed, and not all the builds were transferred. This is Random Arena's alone (the equivalent to gw2's conquest mode) and there are 250 builds on this page.

https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Archived_tested_RA_builds

Guy's i am not joking when the build diversity in gw1 was far superior to gw2's build diversity. There were thousands of meta viable builds across all the modes.