Make all elite spec weapons available for core!

[Bazsi.2734]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:Lets add a new build that can

oneshot anyone from spawn

, so diversity clearly went up.According to your "theory" we just made the game better, while in reality we just killed it.There, that refutes everything. Shouldn't have invoked the power of math and absolute statements.

And this is why I won't bother watching lectures and whatnot to properly educate myself on chaos theory.

No no no friend... this is why you should educate yourself, because then you would understand what is happening in your own example, because this is exactly the kind of problem this framework is built to address!

(Also it's really not Chaos Theory Crozame just says that a lot for some reason idk why. It's important to know chaos theory in order to understand why this is how it works, but the actual mechanisms here that have been described are derived from complexity theory, thermodynamics and evolution in biology)

Lets add a new build that can

oneshot anyone from spawn

, so diversity clearly went up.

Look at the image above. In this system, the number of dots are mapped 1to1 with a color you can pick. You can pretend that the red color is the "one shot anyone from spawn" build that you added to the game. Instead of 5 dots per box at the beginning, there are now 6 per box, and the diversity indeed goes UP when you added the red color at this maximally diverse beginning state because the possibility space has increased.

Now the system is allowed to evolve...Red then begins to take over the system, making it approach the maximal homogenous state, the state in which all players are playing this one shot build, and the diversity will EVENTUALLY collapse to this homogenous state.

The time it takes for this to happen is what is important here, and this is based on the complexity of the system, where computations are occurring (aka players making decisions).

Let's say, players in this systems computation didn't know before time, that in a pool of 216 dots, that one of these colors one shots people from spawn. It would take 216 computation to deduce by the system to determine that this skill is the best skill. the above 216 players is just the total number of dots in the system as a whole...the entire process of things changing from different colors to one single color IS the computation for determining which skill is the best skill. If you were to add a color which is even stronger then red, and you allow the system to evolve again, the computation occurs again, This time it will take 294 computations...and the system will take even longer then before...

Think about this problem now in a system of a million colors (dots per box) and you as a player in this system is making a decision (a computation) and you wanted to find the one shot build. How long would that take you? You'd have to go through all million colors to find the build...once you find it your happy and smiling...but it just took a long time...as everyone else eventually finds the build they will also be happy and smiling...but you notice as more players are finding this color in the hay stack of colors you observe the diversity and the balance of this game is looking bad...and this is where people start to say that "red build should be nerfed!" because the red color is annihilating all the other colors, as people choose it over other colors.

That is the point...is the time it takes to find that one shot build is what the entire framework is about...that it is this very process of finding the optimal strategy which collapses a diverse system toward homogeneity...that process is dependent on the complexity of the system.

Okay cool but... rock<papers<scissors. It exists in this game. It messes this whole "iterate towards optimal homogenity" up. Whatever comes out on top, its counter will be played more, etc. Your model contains too many oversimplifications, it does not work. I can see how a sorting algortyhm or a petri dish with different strains of bacteria ccould be described by what you layed out, but the evolution of an MMO-s meta is a tad bit more complicated.Also the argument that more trash options would prolong the time it takes for players to find what works.... thats an argument against the unviable options. I don't want to waste time learning which part of the game I don't have to care about. Thats not fun. Every trait, every weapon, every skill must be useful in some way. If you cannot make a decent build that contains it, it has no place to exist.Games can be boiled down to a its rules, a special set of restrictions. These are mostly designed to fit well togheter, simply introducing more options and watering down the original ruleset just kills the game. It was certainly the case with ancient games like chess. So many variants exist, yet most people play the original, because even though it has the most restricting ruleset, it's the most fun.

So reiterating my original point: access to a new weapon is part of the elite-spec. It was designed like this for a reason, the game is balanced around it. You cannot simply give everyone everything and expect it to work without an ungodly amount of work put into rebalancing the whole game again. And if you don't care about balance(I got this feeling talking to @Quadox.7834 that he doesn't, but let's hope I'm wrong), then we're talking past each other and this is pointless.

[Quadox.7834]

@bluri.2653 said:Horrible idea ?

give reasons ?

[Quadox.7834]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:Lets add a new build that can

oneshot anyone from spawn

, so diversity clearly went up.According to your "theory" we just made the game better, while in reality we just killed it.There, that refutes everything. Shouldn't have invoked the power of math and absolute statements.

And this is why I won't bother watching lectures and whatnot to properly educate myself on chaos theory.

No no no friend... this is why you should educate yourself, because then you would understand what is happening in your own example, because this is exactly the kind of problem this framework is built to address!

(Also it's really not Chaos Theory Crozame just says that a lot for some reason idk why. It's important to know chaos theory in order to understand why this is how it works, but the actual mechanisms here that have been described are derived from complexity theory, thermodynamics and evolution in biology)

Lets add a new build that can

oneshot anyone from spawn

, so diversity clearly went up.

Look at the image above. In this system, the number of dots are mapped 1to1 with a color you can pick. You can pretend that the red color is the "one shot anyone from spawn" build that you added to the game. Instead of 5 dots per box at the beginning, there are now 6 per box, and the diversity indeed goes UP when you added the red color at this maximally diverse beginning state because the possibility space has increased.

Now the system is allowed to evolve...Red then begins to take over the system, making it approach the maximal homogenous state, the state in which all players are playing this one shot build, and the diversity will EVENTUALLY collapse to this homogenous state.

The time it takes for this to happen is what is important here, and this is based on the complexity of the system, where computations are occurring (aka players making decisions).

Let's say, players in this systems computation didn't know before time, that in a pool of 216 dots, that one of these colors one shots people from spawn. It would take 216 computation to deduce by the system to determine that this skill is the best skill. the above 216 players is just the total number of dots in the system as a whole...the entire process of things changing from different colors to one single color IS the computation for determining which skill is the best skill. If you were to add a color which is even stronger then red, and you allow the system to evolve again, the computation occurs again, This time it will take 294 computations...and the system will take even longer then before...

Think about this problem now in a system of a million colors (dots per box) and you as a player in this system is making a decision (a computation) and you wanted to find the one shot build. How long would that take you? You'd have to go through all million colors to find the build...once you find it your happy and smiling...but it just took a long time...as everyone else eventually finds the build they will also be happy and smiling...but you notice as more players are finding this color in the hay stack of colors you observe the diversity and the balance of this game is looking bad...and this is where people start to say that "red build should be nerfed!" because the red color is annihilating all the other colors, as people choose it over other colors.

That is the point...is the time it takes to find that one shot build is what the entire framework is about...that it is this very process of finding the optimal strategy which collapses a diverse system toward homogeneity...that process is dependent on the complexity of the system.

Okay cool but... rock<papers<scissors. It exists in this game. It messes this whole "iterate towards optimal homogenity" up. Whatever comes out on top, its counter will be played more, etc. Your model contains too many oversimplifications, it does not work. I can see how a sorting algortyhm or a petri dish with different strains of bacteria ccould be described by what you layed out, but the evolution of an MMO-s meta is a tad bit more complicated.Also the argument that more trash options would prolong the time it takes for players to find what works.... thats an argument against the unviable options. I don't want to waste time learning which part of the game I don't have to care about. Thats not fun. Every trait, every weapon, every skill must be useful in some way. If you cannot make a decent build that contains it, it has no place to exist.Games can be boiled down to a its rules, a special set of restrictions. These are mostly designed to fit well togheter, simply introducing more options and watering down the original ruleset just kills the game. It was certainly the case with ancient games like chess. So many variants exist, yet most people play the original, because even though it has the most restricting ruleset, it's the most fun.

So reiterating my original point: access to a new weapon is part of the elite-spec. It was designed like this for a reason, the game is balanced around it. You cannot simply give everyone everything and expect it to work without an ungodly amount of work put into rebalancing the whole game again. And if you don't care about balance(I got this feeling talking to @"Quadox.7834" that he doesn't, but let's hope I'm wrong), then we're talking past each other and this is pointless.

1. Making elite spec weapons reasonably balanced on core would not take "ungodly amount of work put into rebalancing". This is just flat-out wrong.
2. This change would improve balance. It would, for example, improve core engineer. Because one of the causes of imbalance is lack of options for core, i.e. the fact that especs have more options than core.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Bazsi.2734" said:Okay cool but... rock<papers<scissors. It exists in this game. It messes this whole "iterate towards optimal homogenity" up. Whatever comes out on top, its counter will be played more, etc.

Quadox said the same thing actually on the thread i linked above actually....and this is exactly the behavior that is supposed to happen, and the mathematical description of that behavior is described in the framework. The counters being played more when it becomes more and more homogenous is a super important feature of complex systems called self organized criticality. The self organized criticality is essentially the jump from one homogenous state, to a new heterogenous evolution... The above image is too elementary to show that in action aside from using the arrows (this is why you should educate yourself watching the lectures and reading links I provide, because it's a very large and complex subject and it's TOO HARD to draw it) but this criticality is a statistical mathematical force that brings a system from homogeneity into a new heterogenous evolution...This is what CREATES emergent properties, this jumping from one homogenous state to a new heterogenous evolution.

Here is the video that was linked on the other thread which again, You and Quadox pointed out the same thing both there on that thread and this thread.

In this video, the system starts in a homogenous state (all blue) and as the system is then allowed to evolve. The evolution is heterogenous, moving towards a homogenous state, which is the state of yellow/green. At yellow green, the homogenous state becomes self critical. The self criticality is esesntially an effort for the system to reset to a new evolution.

Now this is the last you are gonna hear from me any more on this topic, because again I do not want to hijack yet another thread with this topic, as its already been discussed in detail 5 threads in a row now, which is just me explaining this to people who refuse to watch the videos or read the links I give them to help them understand the framework (Literally, lectures of game developers stating the exact same things I've been saying.)

I've already spoken about this so many times, and now at this point, just browse through my comment history to figure out everything that was said, or simply look up the material online, where it's common mathematical and scientific knowledge (it's not my theory I'm literally spitting out, verbatim how everyone in the modern world understands concepts of balance and diversity in a strictly mathematical form)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@bluri.2653 said:Horrible idea ?

@Quadox.7834 said:give reasons ?

Sindrener is an ESL player just like CMC is, therefore his word is gospel and he knows exactly how to balance a game (/s). He also has a fanbase so people will undoubtedly agree without pause, that whatever he says must be true simply because he is gw2 famous.

Sindrener might be a great player, and i learned alot from him when i mained thief, but just because he's a good player does not mean he knows how to balance a game. I do not take anything any ESL player says without some kind of logic or proof, and for good reason. Bias can be dangerous in the hands of those that hold authority or popularity.

[Disney.7826]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

[Quadox.7834]

@Filip.7463 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

[Disney.7826]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Filip.7463 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

Combine weapon from one elite spec with another.

[Quadox.7834]

@Filip.7463 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Filip.7463 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

Combine weapon from one elite spec with another.

yeah who knows, maybe it would even make mirage almost meta!!!

[Disney.7826]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Filip.7463 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Filip.7463 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

Combine weapon from one elite spec with another.

yeah who knows, maybe it would even make mirage almost meta!!!

Mirage and thief are the two classes that are never nerfed enough