Suggestion: Increase retention and dedication and overall enjoyment of the gamemode

[Basil.1387]

A problem that I see coming back is that people are not rewarded properly for sticking to the game mode, a mode that we love for the gameplay, not for the rewards (obviously). However, every rank, we get this little rankup chest, with a Tome in it, some gold, badges, and something else (see: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience)? They are fairly insignificant to the overall gameplay, so here is my suggestion:

Change the rank-up chest to reflect the account rank (so Bronze Rank-chest, Gold Rank Chest, Platinum Rank Chest you get the picture). Add increasingly better and unique rewards to these chests, rewarding veterans. Suggestions would be: unique weapon skins, higher drop rate for ascended boxes and crafting materials, increased liquid gold, more greens and blues, or wvw only infusions. The reason to link these rewards to higher ranks is twofold: First, it prevents a lot of players to come in for the economy aspect, but more importantly, it rewards veterans for sticking around, while it can draw new players in that have always wanted to spend more time in wvw, increasing population.

This is a small and fairly simple concept I came up with in a short time, and there will obviously be flaws to it. Love to hear reactions, this is me putting in my two cents to a discussion about improving our experiences in wvw a bit.

[XenesisII.1540]

This has been asked for in the past, a new skin, or title (God of WvW lmao), or finishers when getting higher rank tiers. Having more ascended drops would be nice, it would probably diminish the current ascended structure we have, but that also needs to be updated as having two time gated currencies to buy them is absolutely dumb stupid insulting and idiotic. And adding more items to spend those on (legendary stuff), have less people playing, have shot memories prices through the roof over the years.

While giving out more exclusive wvw rewards would be nice, the veterans are the ones already playing wvw for a long time, and in most cases it wasn't for the rewards (if it was... lol pve is way better for it, or heck spvp as you don't even need to gear up for that), it was the game play and combat. If they leave it wasn't because of lack of rewards, they already had to spend how many thousands of hours playing with that fact for up to 9 years, they leave because of game play issues (bad balance, broken specs, stale meta, stale game play, stale maps etc). New and mid rank players are more likely to leave once they realize how long it would take for them to acquire wvw stuff and how terrible the drop rate is, on top of the game play issues.

The real problem for years now, is getting new players and having them stick around. Having backend rewards doesn't help with this (not in a game mode that requires you to spend way more time getting less rewards than the other game modes in the same game), like the skirmish track which should provide even ticket and memories distribution through it's chests, veterans had already started with an advantage and still get an advantage in how much faster they can complete and repeat diamond rank every week.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

The real problem is attracting new players to go play WvW at all.

Which dev thought it was a great idea to nerf EoTM into the dirt when it was a great leveling zone for new players? And thus a great intro into how World vs World works? I don't care that EoTM was overran with ktrainers. In fact, that's absolutely 100% acceptable in order to get new players interested in playing this game mode at all, and in order for them to learn what all this game mode brings with it.

I would honestly be interested in stats on how many new players WvW was pulling in when EoTM was alive, vs it being dead af now. Because I guarantee attraction & retention for the game mode has dwindled since EoTM has been nerfed. Hell, EoTM was a ton of fun when your tier was kinda dead & you just wanted to goof off in WvW. Buy a bunch of those airstrike grenades and laugh maniacally.

Everyone's talking about rewards this, rewards that. I just want the fun as fuck silly leveling zone back. The fights you did have on there were so hilariously unbalanced depending on where you were attacking and what buffs you guys recently got, that you could detach yourself from being a try hard and just dick around. Hell, if either side really try harded they'd accomplish very little anyway, over half their squad was under leveled players. Rally bots as far as the eye could see.

I've seen some people talk about that ktrain as if it was some kind of dark time, when in reality it was just senseless fun for newbies to level up and get interested in WvW.

[Veprovina.4876]

Inb4 people complaining about increased rewards, PvE noobs, karma trains and 30 hour queue times.Every WvW reward thread ends up with those.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:Which dev thought it was a great idea to nerf EoTM into the dirt when it was a great leveling zone for new players?

this idea come from eternal complaints from elitists crowds and their eternal catch-22 "a) world is dying ppl are leaving b) we dont want these pve scrubs theres!". from time to time theres even request to eliminate EoTM completely!

Just for information, i myself started see fun in wvw when i found Eotm ktrains.

Before that, when i entered in a bordeland for a first time, i had no single clue of whats happening theres, and whats im supossed to do, not even a clue on a chat.. then i started thinking "well this is supossed open pve/pvp so i have to start roaming, perhaps theres will be there the same death lord campers to farm noobs that exist in every game with this mode", i tried "solo" a supply camp and was killed,,, some ppl, 2 players i guess, passed over me and ignored me lolz. theres a huge "Tournament" something spamming on right side bar thats make no sense to me at time, then i leave.

When i jumped in Eotm, i see commander tag, and i think "well im suposed to follow this guy", then i see how to take objectives, what supplies are for, everything, i learned wvw here.

But according to Catch-22 elitists, people have to embark on game mode and know what to do for the first time, learned from "heaven" what to do in a borderland, otherwise he is unworthy to play this game-mode and should leave, thats why these ppl want Eotm deleted.

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:I've seen some people talk about that ktrain as if it was some kind of dark time, when in reality it was just senseless fun for newbies to level up and get interested in WvW.

thats basically me. that thing was crazily fun and addictive.

After the nerf, what i see i just professional leechers jumping to wvw to "farm" something, but in way even worse than noobs: these "professionals" know how to get the maximum from game mode doing the minimum. to sum up, i guess we have more chance to have more passionate players about wvw, when we have Eotm ktrain alive.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@XenesisII.1540 said:This has been asked for in the past, a new skin, or title (God of WvW lmao), or finishers when getting higher rank tiers. Having more ascended drops would be nice, it would probably diminish the current ascended structure we have, but that also needs to be updated as having two time gated currencies to buy them is absolutely dumb stupid insulting and idiotic. And adding more items to spend those on (legendary stuff), have less people playing, have shot memories prices through the roof over the years.

While giving out more exclusive wvw rewards would be nice, the veterans are the ones already playing wvw for a long time, and in most cases it wasn't for the rewards (if it was... lol pve is way better for it, or heck spvp as you don't even need to gear up for that), it was the game play and combat. If they leave it wasn't because of lack of rewards, they already had to spend how many thousands of hours playing with that fact for up to 9 years, they leave because of game play issues (bad balance, broken specs, stale meta, stale game play, stale maps etc). New and mid rank players are more likely to leave once they realize how long it would take for them to acquire wvw stuff and how terrible the drop rate is, on top of the game play issues.

The real problem for years now, is getting new players and having them stick around. Having backend rewards doesn't help with this (not in a game mode that requires you to spend way more time getting less rewards than the other game modes in the same game), like the skirmish track which should provide even ticket and memories distribution through it's chests, veterans had already started with an advantage and still get an advantage in how much faster they can complete and repeat diamond rank every week.

The issue is that the rewards in EoTM were so good there was little incentive to play the core WvW mode unless the experience which we already have was sought after in the first place.And that guilds started to go to EoTM to just stomp the pugleaders and random unorganized players for content/the loot was good.

WvW would get more player activity if ANet actually made the combat more interesting than boonball blob and tank & gank strategies, and would have to remove warclaw to let small groups of players actually do anything more than tap keeps or take sections of red BL where people don't want to otherwise play. Which also puts an onus on them to actually make combat/professions balanced and increase diversity such that people can actually enjoy the PvP experience.

ANet would have to remove a ton of features like T7 food and actually care to foster a more competitive environment.

Thing is, they've made it abundantly clear they don't want to. It's what the mode needs, and what players have been asking for years, but ANet has made it pretty damned obvious they do not want WvW and the professions at large to be competitively balanced and open build diversity, because the mindset has always been this mode is a supplement to PvE.

Which is also an inherent problem, because there's so much PvE content that most people interested in PvE simply don't need to WvW, and there's no incentive to influence PvE players to join, which may lead them to want to try it anyways.

There aren't just a few targeted fixes for this mode to change retention. The game is old and past its glory days, it's ripe with performance issues, and the MMO industry in general right now is suffering with NCSoft chomping at the bit to reallocate funds to other shinier projects. WvW's current state - and it being more successful than sPvP - is a perfect demonstration at both ANet's systemic and near-decade of constant neglect and ineptitude towards creating a competitive game, and really, without unraveling huge amounts of updates, design decisions, player incentives, and the likes, the game's just gonna invariably slowly fade out like it has been, with large hikes and then bigger losses after every subsequent expansion and game update.

[Shroud.2307]

I'm still against this idea because I see no reason to reward people for karma farming. High rank doesn't necessarily mean veteran (granted, at a certain point it kind of does), there are players >Gold rank that have been playing since day 1, and almost/exclusively WvW players, just that they either do a lot of roaming, or they don't get to play every day for hours a day perhaps because they're busy with things in the real world.

I think if rewards are ever to be increased in any meaningful way in WvW it shouldn't have anything to do with play time or rank, but rather contribution. How that could be measured is an entirely different discussion however, because rewarding people for building Siege or repairing walls is clearly not going to suffice.

The title for 10k was more than enough, and unnecessary at that. I still think every rank tier should have its own title if they're going to give 10k one. Like, for example, Gold rank = Knight of WvW, Mithril = Demigod of WvW, etc., that kind of thing.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:This has been asked for in the past, a new skin, or title (God of WvW lmao), or finishers when getting higher rank tiers. Having more ascended drops would be nice, it would probably diminish the current ascended structure we have, but that also needs to be updated as having two time gated currencies to buy them is absolutely dumb stupid insulting and idiotic. And adding more items to spend those on (legendary stuff), have less people playing, have shot memories prices through the roof over the years.

While giving out more exclusive wvw rewards would be nice, the veterans are the ones already playing wvw for a long time, and in most cases it wasn't for the rewards (if it was... lol pve is way better for it, or heck spvp as you don't even need to gear up for that), it was the game play and combat. If they leave it wasn't because of lack of rewards, they already had to spend how many thousands of hours playing with that fact for up to 9 years, they leave because of game play issues (bad balance, broken specs, stale meta, stale game play, stale maps etc). New and mid rank players are more likely to leave once they realize how long it would take for them to acquire wvw stuff and how terrible the drop rate is, on top of the game play issues.

The real problem for years now, is getting new players and having them stick around. Having backend rewards doesn't help with this (not in a game mode that requires you to spend way more time getting less rewards than the other game modes in the same game), like the skirmish track which should provide even ticket and memories distribution through it's chests, veterans had already started with an advantage and still get an advantage in how much faster they can complete and repeat diamond rank every week.

The issue is that the rewards in EoTM were so good there was little incentive to play the core WvW mode unless the experience which we already have was sought after in the first place.And that guilds started to go to EoTM to just stomp the pugleaders and random unorganized players for content/the loot was good.

Only somewhat true. I remember there being the occasional guild group stomping EoTM, but it was a pretty big rarity. And even in my low tier server of Ehmry Bay at the time, WvW maps would often end up queued.

And even then, it's kind of a "so what".

So players go and they stomp some pugs. That's perhaps the singular most valuable lesson you could teach a new player in WvW. Running in a disorganized squad against an organized one isn't fun.

I hate to say it, but that's the hook bud. That's why guilds even exist in video games. That's why there's group content & not everything is a solo grind. That is how you convert a player that had a passing interest in WvW thanks to it being a good leveling spot, into a player that's fully invested in winning a fight for his server. For his guild.

Seal clubbing's not an honorable thing, but damn if it isn't a great motivator.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Shroud.2307 said:The title for 10k was more than enough, and unnecessary at that. I still think every rank tier should have its own title if they're going to give 10k one. Like, for example, Gold rank = Knight of WvW, Mithril = Demigod of WvW, etc., that kind of thing.I think titles should be removed entirely in WvW to reduce UI clutter.

[Voltekka.2375]

Inb4 angry comments from non wvwers about wvw being toxic, not wanting to change, that kind of stuff.Thinly veiled behind "give us all wvw rewards and let us ktrain in peace, ty"

[Luthan.5236]

Personally I do only play at the weekend after reset - and only to get the wood tier in the skirmish reward track done. (So I always have the +1 extra pip in the following week ... should I decide to play more when I'm in the mood.)

But the diamont chest seems too grindy to me. (At least at low wxp rank and when not playing on outnumbered maps a lot.) Server communities still seem to exist. I see this in Underworld that now has no link. (Though a lot of players seem to only like to farm when winning. And stop playing when weaker. They should either make it so that all servers are without link. Or all servers are with link. -> Rearranging the players/servers. Personally I like to be on the weaker server - easier to do the dailies when the enemies just cap your suff and you can recap without having to walk over the whole map.)

The biggest issue for me is the time-pressure - because I like the defensive playstyle. The participation system wants you to constantly kill/tag something. Can't just build some defenses and stay waiting somewhere. (You can't even do the jumping puzzle - obsidian sancum - for fun anymore. Without having the time pressure. Cause they forgot to lock/freeze the participation counter there.)

Needs a lot of tweaks. But first I'd say they should remove the participation system or change it a lot. At least let us stack up some minutes by killing small stuff. When a guard/NPC gives onyly 1 or 2 minutes and does not increase the counter when you are higher ... just give us the 1-2 minutes until we reach then. There are situatoins when there are no commanders and you have to really group up with a few other people and look for some enemies (that to not overwhelm you) to get some kill ... if you really want to get the counter back to 10. Or you'd have to cap a far away camp (at the risk of getting killed while walking there). When you maybe just want to wait for the big enemy zerg to move to you ... defending. Can't do that though cause the reward system puts pressure on you. The must unfun thing in the game.

Not even PvP is that bad here. Easy to get the diamont chest by playing 2-3 matches a day - even if not winning a lot. And some pips from losing. Maybe the pip system should be changed to actually reward on defense/attack participatoin. (Every time the 3 minutes conter counted and you defended. But you could not lose any "tier" having to build it up first again. But flat pips for event participation. More for the bigger objectives.)

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"ugrakarma.9416" idk, i somehow doubt it can have been any more casual and pvE'ish than the current Wvw.

idk what "eternal catch-22" is supposed to mean, would u care to explain? (or anyone else)

but these "elitists" is what keeps a server strong. once they are gone, you'll notice a heavy decline of pug population as well, bc the server cannot effectively fight anymore. the amount of players who stopped playing bc they would like to see more other serious players is pretty high. quite some plan to re-visit Wvw during EoD expansion release. but as for now, whole guilds pause or broke up because they cannot find joy anymore in this outdated and super casual current stand that Wvw is in.

i personally like the EotM map, it's very unique designed. but it's 90% dead, outside of some few guildfights or cross-server blob fights. also, i never could really play there, since the normal gameplay on it is just not existing and the reward ticker just stops. i'm a bit annoyed that in the 2 years that i play, it hasn't got one tiny bit of attention to be added to the "real" Wvw maps.

honestly, if u started in the times where eotm still existed, it cannot have been thaat bad. the times when tournaments been were ages ago, most of the broken meta specs have not been in the game at this point afaik.the few old players have technically about 7~ years experience or more. or can have that potentially at least. yet u find completely new players literally every other day in Wvw maps. of course, they get farmed. that is like certain servers farming others due to player distribution. but i don't think u can nerf or balance the player distribution. the harder u nerf stuff, the more players will quite bc it just gets stale as hell. u get less and less buttons to press with every other nerf.

@DeceiverX.8361 the combat system was nearly perfect till feb 2020. probably even better with old target caps. and it is still one of the very few things that keeps Wvw from dying off completely.

[Justine.6351]

The game itself is too old at this point. Everyone who wants to wvw already does and/or has already left.