Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Why is Condition Duration preferred over more Condition Damage?


Silverlock.9736

Recommended Posts

I am not completely new but trying to sort out why some 'builds are better' than others.

Why when going Condi are people telling me to run the rune of Nightmare? Is the 20% duration really better than the extra Condi damage from running a full set of the rune of the undead?

I tried looking at the wiki page on condition and was not following the discussion... I saw the part about breakpoints but was not sure how to go about running all the math. I did catch that the +20% duration from the rune of Nightmare is equivalent to 300 points in expertise with regards to condition damage. With the rune of undead, the condition damage increases by 143 points converting the 7% toughness to condition damage.

Example build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiBBc+trlRw8YcsImJOuXvPfA-zRJYkRP/Y0pCClC6nmUcpB-e

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When people tell others to run Nightmare runes on Condition builds, they usually think of Viper gear, not Trailblazer.Viper offers no Toughness at all, so the 7% conversion gives significantly less condition damage than it does with Trailblazer or Dire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Major things wrong with it:

  • Condition duration is more important for a build that is not even close to max duration (100% condition duration) on its major conditions
  • Domination on a condi build with trailblazer armor/trinkets , so there's not much power damage to augment if at all
  • Not running infinite horizon on mirage , plus lacking energy sigil to ambush more often

For reference this is the "meta" mirage that is using Nightmare runes:http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAcq/lVwSYIsImJWOXfvOA-zRJYmRLfZkZKESBI8JJE2CvFYWjA-e

  • 1713 condition damage, 96.87% condition duration
  • 2173 power, 35.14% crit chance before fury/banner/spotter
  • Typical damage split if confusion isn't being abused is ~45% torment, ~25% bleeding, ~10% burning

The major difference other than the domination traitline (which I would swap right away due to lack of synergy) / food/ utility is the major loss of condition duration.If you look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage the breakpoint for

  • Torment or Bleeding is 1133 , after which duration is preferable in PvE
  • Burning is 655

If you intend to run Trailblazer stats, people generally use Tormenting Rune for competitive modes and Perplexity when you can abuse confusion in PVE. In competitive modes you might run chaos instead of Dueling along with Illusions.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK,... so I tweaked the build I was looking at because I noticed that I had not put in any agony resistance, etc. I also change to Chaos.

  • 2074 condition damage, 56.87% duration
  • 2398 toughness
  • 3365 armor
  • 1633 vitality
  • 22252 health

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiBBc+trlRw8YcsImJeyXvPfA-zRJYkRP/Y0pCClC6PIBxe41kiHMA-e

Again, I am more concerned now with the discussion on Condition Damage increase vs Duration Increase. As a note, I am trying to understand why certain things are considered good vs. others. I have seen that most things have Condi cleanses so people prefer the direct damage of power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The build is for nothing. The build was to highlight the question of why is increased duration better than an increase in condition damage.

The build I toyed with got the condition damage value up to 2074, 56.87% I did it just to see how high I could get the condition damage. Nothing more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Silverlock.9736 said:The build is for nothing. The build was to highlight the question of why is increased duration better than an increase in condition damage.

The build I toyed with got the condition damage value up to 2074, 56.87% I did it just to see how high I could get the condition damage. Nothing more.

Ah, you changed the thread name. Now it becomes another issue entirely lol.

As for why, i'm sure there's math somewhere.

But it's basically. 1 tick of 7 damage is less than 5 ticks of 2 damage (without clenses).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Silverlock.9736 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:

As for why, i'm sure there's math somewhere.

I was hoping for a good explanation of the math that is on the wiki...

This is also described in the (1) annotation.

Quote:

"The amount of Condition Damage at which the first point of Expertise will yield the same damage increase as one additional point of Condition Damage. See #Calculating breakpoints for a detailed description."

After the breakpoint, expertise becomes better.I guess someone calculated via the formula what happens when you increase condition damage only, vs, what happens when you only increase expertise, and from those two, at which point diminishing returns start happening, and when expertise becomes better instead of adding more condition damage...

As for explaining the math itself, i'm not sure how i'd explain it better than it is on the wiki...Maybe someone else can.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Silverlock.9736 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:

As for why, i'm sure there's math somewhere.

I was hoping for a good explanation of the math that is on the wiki...

Someone asked what breakpoint means when that term was first added and it was explained more in depth on the talk page

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Condition_Damage#What_does_breakpoint_mean.3F

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Silverlock.9736" said:I am not completely new but trying to sort out why some 'builds are better' than others.

Why when going Condi are people telling me to run the rune of Nightmare? Is the 20% duration really better than the extra Condi damage from running a full set of the rune of the undead?

I tried looking at the wiki page on condition and was not following the discussion... I saw the part about breakpoints but was not sure how to go about running all the math. I did catch that the +20% duration from the rune of Nightmare is equivalent to 300 points in expertise with regards to condition damage. With the rune of undead, the condition damage increases by 143 points converting the 7% toughness to condition damage.

Example build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiBBc+trlRw8YcsImJOuXvPfA-zRJYkRP/Y0pCClC6nmUcpB-e

just switch undead for nightmare and see how much more dmg conditions do.in pve, where mobs dont cleanse, expertise and condition damage is like power and crit.one without the other is bad, and mesmer doesnt have any real bonuses to condi duration in its traits so it has to get it through gear, aka viper/trailblazer + sigils/runes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To get a sense of how much difference condi duration works, one idea could be to try the same build twice, with and without Signet of Midnight slotted - that would show the effect of adding an extra 180 expertise quite straightforwardly.

Another thought re condition damage and duration is that, if one's talking about PvE, condi duration matters a lot less vs trash mobs, as they'll die fast enough that the extra duration is unlikely to amount to much. If, however, you're more concerned with tougher mobs, then condi duration becomes relatively more important.

As far as the formula goes, the basic ones are given on the wiki for each condition and one can just add a multiplier for the duration. e.g. If C is one's Condi damage stat and E is one's expertise, then the damage per second for 1 stack of bleeding is (0.06C+22)x(1+(E/1500)).

This neglects the possibility of a straight percentage duration bonus to condis (e.g. from a rune or sigil or trait etc), but it's straightforward to add this in. Lets say that one has (e.g.) runes of the Krait which give 50% extra to bleeding (If the condi duration bonus is different for the trait/sigil one has in mind, just substite for the 50). The formula for 1 second of bleed with runes of the Krait would then be (0.06C+22)x(1+(50/100)+(E/1500))

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Silverlock.9736 said:OK,... so I tweaked the build I was looking at because I noticed that I had not put in any agony resistance, etc. I also change to Chaos.

  • 2074 condition damage, 56.87% duration
  • 2398 toughness
  • 3365 armor
  • 1633 vitality
  • 22252 health

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiBBc+trlRw8YcsImJeyXvPfA-zRJYkRP/Y0pCClC6PIBxe41kiHMA-e

Again, I am more concerned now with the discussion on Condition Damage increase vs Duration Increase. As a note, I am trying to understand why certain things are considered good vs. others. I have seen that most things have Condi cleanses so people prefer the direct damage of power.

@Silverlock.9736 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:

As for why, i'm sure there's math somewhere.

I was hoping for a good explanation of the math that is on the wiki...

Nightmare Runes

Using the values above (2074 Condi, 56.87% Duration) we could ask the question "Would adding 100 Attribute Points to Condi Duration or Condi Dmg make a greater impact?"

Assuming we have a basic Bleed (22 base dps + (Condi DMG x 0.06)) that lasts for 10 seconds (plus Condi Duration) and we use the above stats, 1 stack of bleeding will do 146.44 damage each second for 15.687 seconds for a total of 2297.204 dmg

If we increase Condi Duration by 100 points (63.536 Condi Duration total) 1 stack of bleeding will hit do 146.44 damage each second for 16.353 seconds for a total of 2394.733

If we increase Condi Damage by 100 points (2174 Condi dmg) 1 stack of bleeding will do 152.44 damage each second for 15.687 seconds for a total of 2391.326

Although the results are fairly close, we can see that there is a difference and players who like to be super efficient might care about that difference. However, we cannot just add 100 attribute points from thin air to a build, as there is a finite number of Attribute points and modifiers for each profession.

I have used the editor you linked to change the Runes from Undead to Nightmare, here are the same calculations below:

Undead Runes

1890 Condi Dmg 76.87 Condi Duration

Assuming we have a basic Bleed (22 base dps + (Condi DMG x 0.06)) that lasts for 10 seconds (plus Condi Duration) and we use the above stats, 1 stack of bleeding will do 135.4 damage each second for 17.687 seconds for a total of 2394.819 damage.

Hopefully you follow up to here, as there are some gotchas coming below,

1 - Conditions that do not run the full duration (due to cleanses, target dying) do not make full value from Condi Duration. If you are fighting a target golem with infinite life, maxing Condi Duration can see full benefit. Your mileage may vary depending on the content you are playing.2 - Many, maybe all professions, have Condition Specific traits or abilities that boost damage or duration. IE Guardian's Radiant Fire that affects Burning Duration not other conditions. Be mindful of which Conditions you need to affect and the tools you have available.3 - Focusing on the balance of 2 stats can sometimes lead to overlooking other stats that may have value to your build. If you are using the Undead Runes for example, considering your Toughness has a lot of value. Where as when using Nightmare Runes Toughness may not matter as much since there isn't a direct connection to Condi dmg or duration.

So, from a quick glance, one could argue that Undead Runes would be good for shorter combat (under 15 seconds) where Nightmare Rune would be better for longer combat (over 17 seconds) given the above stat options. This is because the Undead hits harder per tick than Nightmare, but Nightmare will do more total damage if it goes for the full duration.

Please do not take this as gospel about Undead and Nightmare Runes. These thoughts and assumptions are related specifically to the values and context provided by the OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...