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Upcoming changes to Torment and Resistance


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Looking at these at face value, one can easily see this was done for reasons other than what was stated in the article. No player in the history of ever was like "Torment would be much better if the bonus kittenmage worked on stationary targets rather than moving ones!" It was designed to be a kite mechanic. The only place where this change benefits anyone one is on some PVE Raid/Fractal bosses. It completely destroys it's use in competitive game modes like PvP and WvW. Developers CLAIM that it will help create more interesting strategies and synergies in PvP... for who? High end organized ranked groups? What about the other 90% of your PvP players who don't have a group fully formed when they go into a match?

The article also states changes to Resistance... changing it to ONLY affect NON Nonkittenmaging conditions. Now this in and of itself wouldn't be that bad but when combined with the changes to Torment you can see the true target of these changes... Hybrid Herald.

The Torment and Resistance changes COMPLETELY destroy this build in competitive game modes. They've completely changed two core game mechanics all to cripple one build. This screams over reaction to Lord Hizen embarrkittening Sunqua Peak CM mode 48 hours after release. We aren't all Lord Hizen. And to completely gut Torment and Resistance like this screams over reaction. Torment was designed to kittenist with kiting. Resistance was designed to help when you don't have a lot of condi clears. At this point in this new form, they are both practically useless. Might as well remove them from the game.


One of the worst nerfs I've seen and I've been playing since launch...

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Okay, here is what torment currently does in competetive gaming:   1. Your usual defense is mobility and using terrain. Ergo, your usual defense is directly related to your skill as a player

OK, and now it's not ... Anet designs the game, not you. Lots of things change from how they were originally intended. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's just how Anet decides it works. The new w

Except the fact that Anet changed it means that it your interpretation is off.  It makes no sense for you to apply your intrepretation of how the game works and why to say how Anet changed it is wrong

They might as well just have equal dmg on torment regardless if the target is moving or not in pvp modes. It's not like you want to stay still ever. Even before it didn't make that much sense just from the perspective that it was overabunkittennt on some professions. Now it makes even less sense.

Resistance, I don't know. We also get a new retal that counters condi dmg. For zergs it could be OK, on small scale pvp it will need to be further adjusted.

Rev Demon F2 is now a suicide button though.

 

The changes were clearly PVE related.

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What I see is warrior being in an even worse place than before. With resistance only working against non-kittenmaging condis, we need to bring retal/resolution to tank some dmg without sacrificing our cleanses. On top of that resolution isn't even like current resistance.

 

And guess what, warriors can get resolution pkittenively only from defense (a dead line with 300sc CDs that anet still hasnt even mentioned of working on) and a single skill from spellbreaker, imminent threat. 

 

So with no total mitigation on condi and the condi bukitten they may want to pull, I sense a sad future for power builds in smallscale and pvp.Hopefully this won't be the only balance before the expac (and no, bug fixes are not balance). 

 

Imo the change to torment is more welcome to me, as a warrior who needs to kite a lot.

 

Finally anet rly thinks attacker's insight can match primal bursts? 

 

On a good note, glad they fixed full counter and very interested in the rifle synergy with the might generation. May actually be decent to use again.

 

P.S. They think Zerker is viable (or more viable than spellbreaker apparently lol, pve amirite), they want pve warriors to not use discipline and yet they make it a mankittentory line for your banners...

 

 

Edited by Grand Marshal.4098
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16 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

They might as well just have equal dmg on torment regardless if the target is moving or not in pvp modes. It's not like you want to stay still ever. Even before it didn't make that much sense just from the perspective that it was overabunkittennt on some professions. Now it makes even less sense.

Resistance, I don't know. We also get a new retal that counters condi dmg. For zergs it could be OK, on small scale pvp it will need to be further adjusted.

Rev Demon F2 is now a suicide button though.

 

The changes were clearly PVE related.

Oh yeah and pain absorption now transfers conditions to you without any kind of kittenmage mitigation lolz

Look at how they specifically targeted Mace and Axe and Demon Stance... This completely destroys the use of Demon Stance in PvP and for WvW roamers...

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29 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

Looking at these at face value, one can easily see this was done for reasons other than what was stated in the article. No player in the history of ever was like "Torment would be much better if the bonus kittenmage worked on stationary targets rather than moving ones!" It was designed to be a kite mechanic. 

Not true. You mention raid bosses, but it is also very beneficial for open world boss encounters - almost all of which are stationary.  The same is true of environmental objects such as doors, totems, etc.  Shifting the kittenmage to stationary actually opens the condition up to more use. 

It also potentially punishes point campers in sPVP. In wvw, the usage is less, but still something that you will want to keep an eye on.

I actually like the change and look forward to seeing it action.

Edited by Blaeys.3102
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Blaeys.3102 said:

Not true. You mention raid bosses, but it is also very beneficial for open world boss encounters - almost all of which are stationary.  The same is true of environmental objects such as doors, totems, etc.  Shifting the kittenmage to stationary actually opens the condition up to more use.

I actually like the change and look forward to seeing it action.

lol No one in the history of ever has complained about the difficulty of killing world bosses so much that they had to change two core game mechanics.

I can't even remember the last time I've seen a world boss fail thanks to LFG.

To say this was beneficial? I mean sure you do more kittenmage but it's not needed, like at all...

Also, no one stands still in PvP... even point campers...

Also, did you really use, "we get to do more kittenmage to doors" as reasoning for your point?

Edited by Solomon Darkfury.3729
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6 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

lol No one in the history of ever has complained about the difficulty of killing world bosses so much that they had to change two core game mechanics.

I can't even remember the last time I've seen a world boss fail thanks to LFG.

To say this was beneficial? I mean sure you do more kittenmage but it's not needed, like at all...

 

 

Specific to WvW, it could easily become the single best way to get players to hop off of arrow carts, rams and other siege equipment - or to destroy oil/cannons/etc. And there are plenty of times that players stop moving - in both WvW and (especially) in sPVP (point capture) - and that not even taking the synergy with stun and immob into account. 

 

My point is, it is far from as useless as you try to paint it, even outside of PVE.  It seems like a good change to me - across all game modes.

Edited by Blaeys.3102
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My biggest concern about the resistance/resolution changes is that one of the highest professions with new resolution uptime is Guardian who already has access to loads of cleanses. Seriously, Radiance Guardian is going to be super OP in PvP. On the flip side, Revenant is getting a whole Legend set enormously nerfed now that Resistance only affects non-kittenmage conditions. As some have said, Pain Absorption and Facet of Nature - Demon are almost death sentences to use now without the Condi shield from Resistance. Mallyx Legend will almost need a rework now that Resistance doesn't affect condi kittenmage.

 

Another issue that arises is Light Aura. Gaining Light Aura reduces condi kittenmage by 10% and gives Retaliation. Since Retaliation is converting to Resolution, will these condi kittenmage percentages stack? so gaining Light Aura and getting hit will reduce condi kittenmage by 43%? Again, Guards will be untouchable by condis. Engineers will benefit from this too as they can create lots of Light Field Leap finishers, but they lose resistance from Rune of Revenant so might be a wash there.

 

Anyway, I'm concerned that a straight switch from Retaliation -> Resolution is not the correct way to go and instead should be switched from Old Resistance - > Resolution and Retaliation -> New Resistance.

 

*edit - has d a m a g e always been flagged for improper language? lol

Edited by Jaykay.9641
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42 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

Looking at these at face value, one can easily see this was done for reasons other than what was stated in the article. No player in the history of ever was like "Torment would be much better if the bonus kittenmage worked on stationary targets rather than moving ones!" It was designed to be a kite mechanic. The only place where this change benefits anyone one is on some PVE Raid/Fractal bosses. It completely destroys it's use in competitive game modes like PvP and WvW. Developers CLAIM that it will help create more interesting strategies and synergies in PvP... for who? High end organized ranked groups? What about the other 90% of your PvP players who don't have a group fully formed when they go into a match?

The article also states changes to Resistance... changing it to ONLY affect NON Nonkittenmaging conditions. Now this in and of itself wouldn't be that bad but when combined with the changes to Torment you can see the true target of these changes... Hybrid Herald.

The Torment and Resistance changes COMPLETELY destroy this build in competitive game modes. They've completely changed two core game mechanics all to cripple one build. This screams over reaction to Lord Hizen embarrkittening Sunqua Peak CM mode 48 hours after release. We aren't all Lord Hizen. And to completely gut Torment and Resistance like this screams over reaction. Torment was designed to kittenist with kiting. Resistance was designed to help when you don't have a lot of condi clears. At this point in this new form, they are both practically useless. Might as well remove them from the game.


One of the worst nerfs I've seen and I've been playing since launch...

Actually, there is at least ONE player that thought that when it was released ... and it was me ... because when it was released, it was stupid to give Revenant a condi build based on a melee weapon that did more kittenmage when the target moves. It makes NO sense to think torment was designed to be ANYTHING except what Anet intended it to be designed for ... and never have I heard Anet say it was a 'kite' mechanic. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 minute ago, Blaeys.3102 said:

 

 

Specific to WvW, it could easily become the single best way to get players to hop off of arrow carts, rams and other siege equipment - or to destroy oil/cannons/etc. And there are plenty of times that players stop moving - in both WvW and (especially) in sPVP (point capture). 

 

My point is, it is far from as useless as you try to paint it, even outside of PVE.  It seems like a good change to me - across all game modes.

In WvW, there are only like 3 skills that can reach someone on a wall on seige if it's placed properly and none of those skills are on Mace Axe or in Demon Stance... sooooo not sure where you get that conclusion.

In Pvp they still have a 50 ft circle to move around in on a point. No one stands still and eats kittenmage.

Not sure if you have just never played those two game modes or are just trolling at t his point.

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3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, there is ONE player that thought that when it was released ... and it was me. it makes NO sense to kittenume torment was designed to be ANYTHING except what Anet intended it to be designed for and never have I heard Anet say it was a 'kite' mechanic. 

So a condition designed to punish you when you move that is applied to you from a hostile target isn't inherently meant to be kite kittenmage? 

Well that certainly IS a take I guess...

Edited by Solomon Darkfury.3729
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4 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

So a condition designed to kittenmage you when you move that is applied to you from a hostile target isn't inherently meant to be kite kittenmage? 

Well that certainly IS a take I guess...

Except the fact that Anet changed it means that it your interpretation is off.  It makes no sense for you to apply your intrepretation of how the game works and why to say how Anet changed it is wrong. 

 

Torment change actually encourages advanced gameplay; as far as I'm concerned, this change just added a WHOLE new reason to use ways to prevent players from moving. Makes LOTS of sense to me. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 minute ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

So a condition designed to punish you when you move that is applied to you from a hostile target isn't inherently meant to be kite kittenmage? 

Well that certainly IS a take I guess...

 

It is just another take to juxtapose with your "take." Both are just opinion. I just like the idea of the change and welcome seeing it in action. If it is as horrible as you believe it will be, then we can talk about it then - once we've actually seen how big a difference it ACTUALLY makes.

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Confusion has become the worst condi and poison maybe the strongest (i am not sure if the -33% healing goes though resistance now or not). What i do not get is why soft cc has 5 counters to it when hard cc has only 3 it seems like bad planing.

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4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except the fact that Anet changed it means that it your interpretation is off. 

Though they took the original patch notes down but here is a video from when Torment was released and it shows a SS of the patch notes.

Torment was specifically designed to punish those for their movement.
 

 

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I'm kinds shocked honestly. On one hand the combination of how the breakbars will work and the torment changes will maybe open the door for bringing more condi builds into t4 fractals and raiding. But for WvW and PvP? I think this is a really bad decision... Sure there are problems with condi bombing and stuff like this but imo those changes reads like some builds will be deleted completley from these game modes. And the least thing we need is less build diversity...

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4 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

Though they took the original patch notes down but here is a video from when Torment was released and it shows a SS of the patch notes.

Torment was specifically designed to punish those for their movement.
 

 

 

 

OK, and now it's not ... Anet designs the game, not you. Lots of things change from how they were originally intended. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's just how Anet decides it works. The new way has always made more sense to me as it rewards people who thoughtfully apply immobilizes, etc ... and from the fact that originally, that torment application on Rev was a melee weapon. 

 

You can't argue this change is wrong from a design perspective, because you don't control the design, Anet does. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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The main thing is confusion will probably still be busted on Twin Largos and Soulless Horror (Desmina) while torment will be usable everywhere there is a boss that doesn't move.

I'm surprised that Pain Absorption doesn't have a Defy Pain like mechanic added to it (but for conditions) since you can easily kill yourself using it. The same goes for necro to an extent with Plague Signet whereas Unholy Martyr trait has a built in condition removal.

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1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The main thing is confusion will probably still be busted on Twin Largos and Soulless Horror (Desmina) while torment will be usable everywhere there is a boss that doesn't move.

I'm surprised that Pain Absorption doesn't have a Defy Pain like mechanic added to it (but for conditions) since you can easily kill yourself using it. The same goes for necro to an extent with Plague Signet whereas Unholy Martyr trait has a built in condition removal.

Because as usual they didn't put thought into the wider effects of the changes. Though guess that's why they put the notes out two weeks in advance so we do their job for them. 

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5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

 

OK, and now it's not ... Anet designs the game, not you. Lots of things change from how they were originally intended. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's just how Anet decides it works. The new way has always made more sense to me as it rewards people who thoughtfully apply immobilizes, etc ... and from the fact that originally, that torment application on Rev was a melee weapon. 

 

You can't argue this change is wrong from a design perspective, because you don't control the design, Anet does. 

Lol you must be an Immob Soulbeast main

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3 minutes ago, Sarmach.1547 said:

Because as usual they didn't put thought into the wider effects of the changes. Though guess that's why they put the notes out two weeks in advance so we do their job for them. 

I've never seen honestly something nerfed so hard it rendered a portion of a clkitten completely useless. Changes to corruption line and Demon stance not only make it unviable, but a detriment in small parties. They completely destroyed an entire legend for Revenant.

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