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Upcoming changes to Torment and Resistance


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oh, I'm glad they are looking out for my feelings. I wouldn't want to get offended reading an online forum ūüôā

 

I'm sorry for derailing the topic, I just wasnt sure if kitten mages were a real thing or not. It definitely sounded interesting~=!

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Okay, here is what torment currently does in competetive gaming:   1. Your usual defense is mobility and using terrain. Ergo, your usual defense is directly related to your skill as a player

OK, and now it's not ... Anet designs the game, not you. Lots of things change from how they were originally intended. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's just how Anet decides it works. The new w

Except the fact that Anet changed it means that it your interpretation is off.  It makes no sense for you to apply your intrepretation of how the game works and why to say how Anet changed it is wrong

24 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

Lol you must be an Immob Soulbeast main

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said ... you're interpretation of the game's design is not the basis that Anet makes the changes to the game. 

 

The torment change properly rewards application of immob effects to the players applying the torment. In otherwords, it shouldn't be the target that gets to determine the kittenmage reduction from the source. That was an absurd design. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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I can't say I can complain as a PvE player, Torment getting more useful there.
But for PvP I can sympathise, specially with the new resistance changes as well.

All in all I think the best compromise here would be to base Torment's additional damage factor on whether the target is suffering from a mobility impairing CC rather than base it on whether the target is moving or not.

If you are under the effects of Chill, Cripple, Immob, Stun, Daze, Taunt, Slow, Knockdown, Launch, Pull, Sink/Float or Fear, then you should take extra damage from Torment while those effects are active, and Resistance should not protect you from this additional damage either, even if the soft movement effects are blocked by the boon.

As far as bosses go they should take some additional damage from torment when they have any greyed out movement impairing conditions on them but this additional damage is resisted significantly by say 75-80%
When their defiance bar's are broken however they take the full additional damage from torment for X amount of seconds.

*Edit* Great so putting a D next to an A comes up as kitten xD
*Edit 2* Cleaning out the kitten infestation & wording a bit better.
 

Edited by Teratus.2859
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8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said ... you're interpretation of the game's design is not the basis that Anet makes the changes to the game. 

 

The torment change properly rewards application of immob effects to the players applying the torment. Considering that players are by DEFAULT in motion in competitive modes, the old design had the bonus DPS application in the wrong place. 

ahhh ok so your logic is this makes sense despite the fact it nerfs torment for the any clkitten that can't apply immob/stun and torment all to benefit what? 1 maybe 2 clkittenes?

Great logic fam

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5 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

ahhh ok so your logic is this makes sense despite the fact it nerfs torment for the any clkitten that can't apply immob/stun and torment all to benefit what? 1 maybe 2 clkittenes?

Great logic fam

The clkitten applying the torment doesn't need to be the source of the movement-prevention effect.  

 

 

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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21 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I can't say I can complain as a PvE player, Torment getting more useful there.
But for PvP I can sympathise, specially with the new resistance changes as well.

All in all I think the best compromise here would be to base Torment's additional kittenmage factor on whether the target is suffering from a mobility impairing CC rather than base it on whether the target is moving or not.

If you are under the effects of Chill, Cripple, Immob, Stun, kittenze, Taunt, Slow, Knockdown, Launch, Pull, Sink/Float or Fear, then you should take extra kittenmage from Torment, and Resistance should not protect you from this either.

As far as bosses go they should take some additional kittenmage from torment when they have any greyed out movement impairing conditions on them but this additional kittenmage is resisted significantly by say 75-80% of the additional kittenmage.
When their defiance bar's are broken however they take full additional kittenmage from torment for X amount of seconds.

*Edit* Great so putting a D next to an A comes up as kitten xD
 

Yes your dps will increase in PvE but do keep in mind Resistance wont protect anyone from Torment after this patch.  So if you stunbreak (pain absorption) or even if you accidentally hit pain absorption there is a decent change you will die if you are in a group fight with decent conditions.  Basically our Dps will increase but survivability is decreased drastically with no stunbreak or condition kittenmage mitigation. (and a dead Rev deals less kittenmage than an alive one).  Unless you change your traitlines but that will hurt your overall dps so in the end you gain nothing from increased torment kittenmage. Hopefully there is more to this patch.

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Just now, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

ok so again you are still limited on who this benefits- High end organized Raid/PvP/WvWhavoc...

That doesn't make sense ... I never limited what I was saying to a specific game mode or situation. The new approach to torment rewards players who's targets aren't moving. That applies to any game mode you want to talk about. 

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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense ... I never limited what I was saying to a specific game mode or situation. The new approach to torment rewards players who's targets aren't moving. That applies to any game mode you want to talk about. 

ok I'm done replying to you at this point I'm just going to believe you are trolling.

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1 hour ago, Blaeys.3102 said:

 

 

Specific to WvW, it could easily become the single best way to get players to hop off of arrow carts, rams and other siege equipment - or to destroy oil/cannons/etc. And there are plenty of times that players stop moving - in both WvW and (especially) in sPVP (point capture) - and that not even taking the synergy with stun and immob into account. 

 

My point is, it is far from as useless as you try to paint it, even outside of PVE.  It seems like a good change to me - across all game modes.

Sure, if longbow 5 and fire staff 5 applied torment, you might have a point. Oh, wait, they don't.

 

 

These changes are bad. Very bad. They are specifically for one game mode while obliterating entire clkittenes' condi spec in competitve ones. People keep talking about Revenant, but let's talk about necro for a moment. Necro's main condition application weapon converts boons to torment, and in shroud, has a torment AoE. Right now, this synchs pretty well, because necro's main disabler is FEAR. Fear forces movement, making it a field control mechanic and, if torment is applies previously, one of your primary sources of DPS if you're not running minion spam.

With torment inverted, as of May 11, every disabler from a necro outside of the extremely rare,  limited range, gear specific stun with a long CD is going to do much less kittenmage. Thank you, anet, for turning my main clkitten into a bag pinata.

 

[sarcasm] But, hey, a clkitten that uses torment + fear as one of its primary kittenmage sources is clearly not needing a rework after you reworked how the entire torment mechanic works. I mean, who would think that? That'd be outright crazy, right? [/sarcasm]

 

Edit: Anet, your swear filter is broken...

Edited by slave to the grind.5028
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3 minutes ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

ok I'm done replying to you at this point I'm just going to believe you are trolling.

That's fine. I mean, I didn't expect any less because for some reason, you weren't willing to recognize that it's completely reasonable to reward the person applying torment on a target who can't move with a kittenmage bonus. 

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9 minutes ago, Kronos.2560 said:

Yes your dps will increase in PvE but do keep in mind Resistance wont protect anyone from Torment after this patch.  So if you stunbreak (pain absorption) or even if you accidentally hit pain absorption there is a decent change you will die if you are in a group fight with decent conditions.  Basically our Dps will increase but survivability is decreased drastically with no stunbreak or condition kittenmage mitigation. (and a dead Rev deals less kittenmage than an alive one).  Unless you change your traitlines but that will hurt your overall dps so in the end you gain nothing from increased torment kittenmage. Hopefully there is more to this patch.


The new boon will provide condi d amage reduction, it's basically protection but for conditions.
You can also move around to reduce the d amage done by torment as well so if anything survivability got increased since it's going to be even tougher to lock people down thanks to the resistance changes which negate those effects entirely.

I'm guessing you're speaking purely from a Rev's perspective though, I can't say I can relate with that I rarely ever play rev's.

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39 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

All in all I think the best compromise here would be to base Torment's additional kittenmage factor on whether the target is suffering from a mobility impairing CC rather than base it on whether the target is moving or not.

If you are under the effects of Chill, Cripple, Immob, Stun, kittenze, Taunt, Slow, Knockdown, Launch, Pull, Sink/Float or Fear, then you should take extra kittenmage from Torment, and Resistance should not protect you from this either.

I really like this and would be okay with this, since it is what my main clkitten does anyway.

 

Apply torment -> Spam fear.

 

Since pve bosses usually have "stun" when the breakbar is broken, this would apply to them as well.

 

I really like this. This is great. You have just created something that actually works.

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It is completely null because as said in the previous comments, the special alteration and completely destroyed for the necro scourge and especially the revenant with a huge nerf.

 

Knowing that the game is dynamic, what should we do, just stay still in front of the mob so that it takes a lot of kittenmage? And if still except possibly the control that the revenant has it can not immobilized 20 min like the ranger.

 

On the other hand we still buff the thief who as we all know are not at all mobile clkittenes. With the futivity it's already annoying because there is no way to make them appear. And this will encourage even more the necro reaper who already opens everything in two while their shroud bar and boosted by the fact of putting vitality awesome frankly worst patch ever ....

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why not also reverse the poison, those who are affected will receive 33% more care then?

 

And the confusion more kittenmage to those who do not throw skills?

 

Frankly since the beginning of the revenant he did nothing but take nerf...

Edited by Angesombre.4630
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Resistance was absolutely broken guys ... and you know it. Completely immune to all conditions as long as you could apply resistance? Yeah ... that nerf was something I could see a mile away, especially considering we have two traits in Corruption that are resistance-based kittenmage mitigation ON TOP of it. I abused the hell out of it and it resulted in the kind of game play that I think Anet is very sensitive to avoiding because those kinds of builds make content feel cheap and at a level completely different than other clkittenes. It was almost complacent and inattentive in how it played. 

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6 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:


The new boon will provide condi d amage reduction, it's basically protection but for conditions.
You can also move around to reduce the d amage done by torment as well so if anything survivability got increased since it's going to be even tougher to lock people down thanks to the resistance changes which negate those effects entirely.

I'm guessing you're speaking purely from a Rev's perspective though, I can't say I can relate with that I rarely ever play rev's.


yeah I think they were responding to the changes in resistance and how specifically pain absorption and herald’s f2 function. Most specs that take conditions from friendlies typically had either a quick way to cleanse or resistance to keep them from kittenmaging until either a cleanse or transfer. But with resistance no longer providing the immunity from kittenmage if you run mallyx on rev in a group context you basically can’t use your stunbreak unless you want to risk dying to condi overload. Even if you take traits to give you resolution, it’s still not going to stop 24+ stacks of burning if any of your allies are standing in mortar fire.
 

The changes to to torment also makes it very difficult to use any spec that depended on torment for kittenmage in pvp/wvw contexts without an additional set of skills or an additional person devoted to immobs/stuns because even point bunkers are constantly moving. So mallyx Rev which has mostly access to torment and limited access to burning/poison is hit very hard in competitive formats.  This also applies to other specs like scourge that use torment, as they may not have the kit to guarantee the lockdown after applying torment. 

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The rev mains whining about Pain Absorption need to come back to 2012 when Empathetic Bond was introduced to us rangers.  Could also have the fix they gave us for SB where it literally does nothing if you're merged...better than killing you I guess. 

 

On the upside, Resistance still helps you against CC so your build will only partly carry now.  

 

Think Torment change is in the same vein--can mindlessly spam it as pretty much everything is moving so it's always going to work.  If anything, thematically it makes sense as torment is usually amplified if standing still (physically or mentally).  Bleeding is the one that should do bonus harm on moving, or have a side effect of weakness or something.  

 

Also we're talking about bonus harm (plz for the love of the God's fix the synonym for this word in your censors, it's making posts unintelligible), let's not act like Torment doesn't still tick regardless. 

 

Edited by Gotejjeken.1267
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the torment change is clearly for pve. for competitive modes its kinkitten lame that it just got dumbed down like that, but the counter play is to stand still which is even more dumb so i'm neutral on this change.

 

resistance is now basically superspeed 0.5, i have no idea why they went this route. it should effect kittenmaging condis only, both to preserve its nature and to differentiate it from superspeed, and to keep balance intact for builds that relied on it.

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2 minutes ago, Valelutra.9128 said:


yeah I think they were responding to the changes in resistance and how specifically pain absorption and herald’s f2 function. Most specs that take conditions from friendlies typically had either a quick way to cleanse or resistance to keep them from kittenmaging until either a cleanse or transfer. But with resistance no longer providing the immunity from kittenmage if you run mallyx on rev in a group context you basically can’t use your stunbreak unless you want to risk dying to condi overload. Even if you take traits to give you resolution, it’s still not going to stop 24+ stacks of burning if any of your allies are standing in mortar fire.
 

The changes to to torment also makes it very difficult to use any spec that depended on torment for kittenmage in pvp/wvw contexts without an additional set of skills or an additional person devoted to immobs/stuns because even point bunkers are constantly moving. So mallyx Rev which has mostly access to torment and limited access to burning/poison is hit very hard in competitive formats.  This also applies to other specs like scourge that use torment, as they may not have the kit to guarantee the lockdown after applying torment. 


It's definitely the competitive side that will be hit harder for sure.
I'm not all that familiar with large group play in WvW though, not my thing in all honesty.

Did rev's at least get access to that new boon? the one that reduces condition kittenmage.. I can't recall.

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9 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:


It's definitely the competitive side that will be hit harder for sure.
I'm not all that familiar with large group play in WvW though, not my thing in all honesty.

Did rev's at least get access to that new boon? the one that reduces condition kittenmage.. I can't recall.

All retal is replaced by resolution. You would need to run dwarf or use Resolute evasion in Retribution traitline.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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6 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:


It's definitely the competitive side that will be hit harder for sure.
I'm not all that familiar with large group play in WvW though, not my thing in all honesty.

Did rev's at least get access to that new boon? the one that reduces condition kittenmage.. I can't recall.


They kind of did and kind of didn’t. The Jalis legend has access to retal/now resolution with their heal. But beyond that you have to take a trait line (Retribution) that is not very suited to condi-rev builds if you want access to resolution. 

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2 hours ago, Solomon kittenrkfury.3729 said:

Looking at these at face value, one can easily see this was done for reasons other than what was stated in the article. No player in the history of ever was like "Torment would be much better if the bonus kittenmage worked on stationary targets rather than moving ones!" It was designed to be a kite mechanic. The only place where this change benefits anyone one is on some PVE Raid/Fractal bosses. It completely destroys it's use in competitive game modes like PvP and WvW. Developers CLAIM that it will help create more interesting strategies and synergies in PvP... for who? High end organized ranked groups? What about the other 90% of your PvP players who don't have a group fully formed when they go into a match?

The article also states changes to Resistance... changing it to ONLY affect NON Nonkittenmaging conditions. Now this in and of itself wouldn't be that bad but when combined with the changes to Torment you can see the true target of these changes... Hybrid Herald.

The Torment and Resistance changes COMPLETELY destroy this build in competitive game modes. They've completely changed two core game mechanics all to cripple one build. This screams over reaction to Lord Hizen embarrkittening Sunqua Peak CM mode 48 hours after release. We aren't all Lord Hizen. And to completely gut Torment and Resistance like this screams over reaction. Torment was designed to kittenist with kiting. Resistance was designed to help when you don't have a lot of condi clears. At this point in this new form, they are both practically useless. Might as well remove them from the game.


One of the worst nerfs I've seen and I've been playing since launch...

The changes to Torment are good on the defending side on sPvP and WvW as well good for PvE. Well yes as condi build who use it you maybe don't like this but it gives room for counter play from the other side

 

The resistance change I don't understand this is a nightmare for sPvP and WvW so far I understand soft cc effect are now excluded from resistance. It like you side resistance is designed to fill up the gap between the use of condi clean. Actually I complained about that we have way too much soft cc(mostly from necro) and cc in sPvP and well this  is the reaction..

 

I remember there was again some voices on the board who wanted to get more nerfs to resistence even when it duration is already on a point which makes it barley noticable.

 

Same goes for the changes on retaliation there was a lot of mimi forever against this boon and reduced condi duration is the most worthless modifier in this game because the kittenmage of condi is so high in competitive modes either you cleans them or you are death to say it simple.

 

For PvE the changes on Exposed is also a nightmare before 50% dmg increase of everything now. 30% power and 100% condi dmg . So far I understand this the developers wanted to fill the gap between power and condi burst  but what this does in reality is the everyone is now forced to play (new) condi builds for 6 months .... until the add-on comes

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