Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]

[Flyingbeggars.9406]

Hi everyone. 

 

After being exposed to the disappointing finale of the Icebrood saga, I had actually sent in a support ticket to Anet discussing said disappointment. 

 

They actually got back to me in less than 30 mins stating that they believe that there is a 'rich discussion (amongst the Devs)' to be had regarding the finale, and that they themselves are aware of the disheartening ending. 

 

They encouraged me to make a pot on the forums. Here is the email:

 

"Hello Arenanet,

I have been an avid player of the game since 2012 and have been very invested in the story.

 

As the old quote says 'A story is only as good as its villain', and I have to admit that every single villain so far has been unique and interesting. But of them all, Jormag takes the crown. Ever since the beginning of the icebrood saga, they have been an extremely compelling villain, shifting and moving the story in an exceptional direction. And a part of this unparalleled story telling is how you have composed Jormag's personality of not truly 'lying', but simply repurposing truths to persuade people to her side. Their character was so well developed particularly during the 'Confer with Bangar' achievement and I must say that it was truly disheartening to see them go in such a quick manner.

 

I would like to make an appeal: I understand that game producing and making, and story producing and making takes time, effort, and most importantly money; But I know I am not the only person to feel the grave disappointment that came with Jormag's pkittening. I would love it if some how they actually survived and their tale continues in the new expansion: End of Dragons, which all of us are eagerly awaiting.

Thank you and Keep up the great work!"

 

You can see that the email highlights my disappointment towards Jormag's death mostly because I really loved Jormag as a villain, and never actually percieved Primordus as a threat (I didn't play the original Guild Wars, and he's barely mentioned in Gw2). But feel free to discuss more. 

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Jormag was actually interesting. I wish the "one has to die" prophecy had ended with Braham's death. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Flyingbeggars.9406]

I'd also like to point out:

 

I don't understand why the Devs went through so much pain to animated and model Primordus's face and upkittente Jormag's face and add hands to their body, only to have both of them spend a total of 15 mins on screen. 

[Bast.7253]

1 minute ago, Flyingbeggars.9406 said:

I'd also like to point out:

 

I don't understand why the Devs went through so much pain to animated and model Primordus's face and upkittente Jormag's face and add hands to their body, only to have both of them spend a total of 15 mins on screen. 

Or giving Braham a new model and then the second the elder dragon dies just making him go back to normal. Despite us having years of people getting corrupted by the dragons and their forms not going back to normal after the dragon's death.  But I guess we can throw in the "But the spirits!" as a convenient excuse. But judging by the concept art they released of the Norn building in Cantha I'm kittenuming they wanted to make sure he was in good condition to be heavily involved in whatever that's about.
 

[Sir Alric.5078]

6 minutes ago, Flyingbeggars.9406 said:

They actually got back to me in less than 30 mins stating that they believe that there is a 'rich discussion (amongst the Devs)' to be had regarding the finale, and that they themselves are aware of the disheartening ending. 

 

 

 

 

So they knew that their finale was GARBAGE, yet they chose to release it anyway? What the actual f**k!

Isn't that basically admitting that they don't give a kitten anymore?  

[Daniel Handler.4816]

9 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

Or giving Braham a new model and then the second the elder dragon dies just making him go back to normal. Despite us having years of people getting corrupted by the dragons and their forms not going back to normal after the dragon's death.  But I guess we can throw in the "But the spirits!" as a convenient excuse. But judging by the concept art they released of the Norn building in Cantha I'm kittenuming they wanted to make sure he was in good condition to be heavily involved in whatever that's about.
 

He should have at least been disfigured like Bangar.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Ideally, we would've had a 'Crash Bandicoot: Warped' -style final clash between the two - Aku Aku vs Uka Uka, with Cortex and Crash caught in the middle, anyone?

Either the story needed to be longer (more chapters) or either of the two dragons needed to survive the clash - in my opinion, this should've been Jormag. But a case can be made for both. Given the lack of resources, I wouldn't go too hard on them on the actual gameplay. I would, however, criticize how the situation was handled.

Just change the name of the expansion if the deal is really that big for you.

Edited April 30, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Fueki.4753]

The end is so bad that there aren't actually words to describe my disappointment.

 

But what's done is done and we can only hope EoD will be worth such an enormous loss.

[Biziut.3594]

Not to mention millions of plot holes. They could actually throw up a decent ending insctnce, with some dialogues filling up this holes. Like what is happening to norn women that were captured by Jormag, how are charr high ranks looking now and how Crecia became imperator while not even beeing related to the blood branch of Khan-Ur family, how it is possible that Braham reverted to his normal form after dragons deaths and if spirits are so powerful to revert dragons corruption or at least shield from it than why they didn't shield other norn that were corrupted by Jormag while fighting against his champions, not to mention how he and Ryland even survived the blast that tore apart both elder dragons. So many questions and all we get is YEEEY you killed next two dragons now you can close the game and never come back when expansion is released! I am starting to feel like i am playing old Mario Bros... Go to some place, Kill a dragon, Save the princess (Braham). No lore, no fun gameplay (just compare this whole Dragonstorm to Dragon Stand or at least Dragonfall), and even new eye infusion seem to be impossible to drop.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Biziut.3594

[anninke.7469]

After playing that ... thing I kinkitten ask myself if there's a point in even having a lore subforum anymore. The story (all of it, the main part, the world building stuff, everything) was brutally murdered by Champions. I don't even think EoD can be worth this sacrifice no matter how good it is. As a very story oriented player I'll have a hard time finding my lost enthusiasm for the game's future stories - knowing they can get butchered like this anytime. 

[EdwinLi.1284]

 

 

That is a issue for any story when they drag things on for too long. When the storyline  is young they have many paths to take a storyline but the longer it goes the lower the options becomes.

We always had a goal towards the defeat of all Elder Dragons but how that goal is reached was always the question and the longer it took by adding drama between each Elder Dragon's defeat the less focus the story may become.

There is a lot of moments in the Icebrood Saga that needed maybe additional Story Instance/quests to build up to that moment to prevent it from feeling rushed but at this point I think the developers are rushing through Icebrood Saga because it is a rushed storyline since originally they never intended to create Icebrood Saga and was going to focus more on End of Dragons and the journey to that location.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Zola.6197]

Can't agree more. Jormag was the most compelling character and antagonist the game has introduced period, imo. The voice acting was spot on, and I was deeply invested in seeing what their grandmaster plan was, how we were falling right into their carefully laid trap. In the end Jormag's guile, intelligence, and their "persuasion" domain meant truly nothing. All of that set up and development was discarded so they could shoe horn in a terrible ending that was a disservice to how compelling and complicated Jormag seemed to be, and also discarded Primordus - the creature that literally ushered us in to GW2 - as a floating head with 10 whole minutes of screen time. What a joke.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Zola.6197

[Crono.4197]

Worst ending that could have been. Killing Primordus together with Jormag? Primordus didn't even have an arc of his own, he was just there for 10 minutes and then boom, bye bye forever. I usually defend pretty much everything that ArenaNet does, but this time it was so bad that it made me ask myself why I even play this game anymore, if they're going to ruin the story. Jormag was rushed but at least had some development in Icebrood Saga. Primordus, the Elder Dragon that had a presence in Guild Wars: Eye of the North, the one who caused the asura and skritt to go to the surface and for the dwarves to disappear from the face of Tyria, the big bad of the franchise...disappeared just like that, just for the sake of rushing story.

 

And the execution of it, don't even get me started....yeah you go in an instance for 10 minutes, the dragons look at each other JoJo's Bizzare Adventure style, and then they fight for 3 seconds, Jormag spits a beam and they both explode. This finale was done just for the Saga to end, ArenaNet don't seem to care about the story of this game and this worries me, because it's the thing that kept me in this franchise for so long. The story got worse..and worse...and worse, but each time I said that it's ArenaNet's game, that they can do what they want with it, that something amazing will come out eventually...but that never happened. Instead, we got a rushed ending.

 

ArenaNet, you disappointed me for the first time ever. I thought you guys were better than this and that you would end up the saga amazingly to make up for how lackluster Champions episodes were. I was wrong. With Primordus dead and the Sea Dragon having basically no lore in the game, what do I have left now? I don't care about raids, pvp and all that. The story and lore were what mattered the most to me and you butchered them. But I'm pretty sure you guys won't care, keep pumping items in that Gem Store instead, I'm sure that will help a lot and keep players happy...not.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Crono.4197

[vier.1327]

i played it yesterkitteny, the whole Champion chapter, and... wow boy, this can not be considered as an Arenanet product, not even a cinematic at the end, all so rush, i did not feel like i was in the middle of a battelfield, no conection to the next expansion...

 

And... it is over, that is, go home, there is nothing more to see...  That is how i described the ending.

 

[Swizzle.7982]

This finale is a huge disappointment. My biggest disappointment of the entire GW franchise so far.

 

Things were going great too. Zhaitan was a bit iffy. But Mordremoth was a huge improvement, with a wold boss event and a whole map dedicated to him, as well as a more personal personal story instance. Then Kralkatorrik took it even further, with no less than 3 story fights against him (one of them taking place flying through the mists on the back of Aurene!) and a huge open world event where his literal body made up the map. And then...

 

Then we have this... two dragons killed (not even by us) at the same time, in a 5 second cutscene...

Ok, if it had just been Jormag that died, well they had a decent arc, they at least got a bit of a chance to shine.

 

But Primordus is gone too. The amount of wasted potential really just makes me so incredibly sad. Like many other players who saw Primordus in GW1 I was looking forward to him finally getting the spotlight. As a huge Asura fan too I've been looking forwards to finally seeing "their" dragon. For the last 14 years, I've wanted to go back to the depths of Tyria, to discover lost Asuran cities, to find out what remains of the dwarves, to finally see Primodus as the world ending threat that he was promised to be after we killed the great destroyer in the central transfer chamber all those years ago.

 

But now both dragons are gone, along with all those possibilities. That's two dragons out of six. Arguably one third of GW2's story effectively ruined. That can't be undone. And for what? So we can rush to an expansion and get the story over with? 

 

It feels like the people making this game have stopped caring. So after all this time, from pre-searing Ascalon to the disappointing death of two elder dragons, why should I care any more either?

[Jaken.6801]

I feel they chose the worst ending to go with.

So much wasted potential, to the point it feels like a betrayal to the whole series.

Not only did they kill of two elder dragons in one swoop, but...

 

• They broke Jormags character from one moment to the next (so much for sheming dragon. I'm the big trickster drag...a kitten it, i just smash... and I don't bring an army, just one Charr).
• They didn't build up Primordus much more then he was in the core story and his little cameos in other seasons, leaving him... the first one, highly underdeveloped, compared to all others.
• They shoved a deus ex machina in, to suddenly "easily" being able to defeat them (and it looked very very sad)
• They had the "audacity" to have a pretty clean ending and think it's earned (seriously. Aside from the wreckage in the DRM they caused, the aftermath is one dead Rhyland, a sad Rytlock, some more dead on our side and... shock... some magic escaped, which no one really seem to care about...)
• Completly ignore several plot threads that have been dangling for kitten years now, just to get a rushed unsatisfying conclusion before EoD popps out...which is a name they could have given the IBS... the dragons are dead already.
• Kicking us out with: "well, guess we have to see where that went, how exciting. doh" no... no it isn't. We know who got the magic. We know where it went. Afterwards we get send back to the EoN with a letter von Anet... no celebration. No extra ending. Nothing. The Leaders just stand there, hidden under dozens of spawning players and are gone afterwards. Nothing cool as a reward.

This ending litteraly killed any kind of expactations I had for anything coming from now on.
If they don't manage to do the most obvious, simplest thing (Primordous justice), they won't be able to bring anything satisfying in any way.

More so, because there won't be any retcon, any course shift, anything (And I don't expect anything up their sleeve, like with "aurenes dead", which was less annoying, but still kinda stupid in retrospect).
We had 8 years, to get a better Zaithan ending. It could have been delivered in several ways.
They never went back. One very important fight. Ignored for years because it would have been too much work (it could have been a fractal, a new dungeon path, a scrying pool adventure, a new map, nowadays an DRM, etc. )

Any good words I have for the whole thing. Any goodwill the first chapters... no the proolog. The season before, build up. Poof... gone.
Again... starting strong... then crashing.

[ugrakarma.9416]

i think the Joko end, was the last time they waste villains. but this so far is number 1 lore disaster.

 

At least Joko disaster was saved by a great end monologue.

 

i hope they learn that waste great villains is worse than kill a "friend".

Edited April 30, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[Ogwom.7940]

Maybe these points that I am about to bring up are completely unrealistic, but I would have much preferred if they took the extra time between the Drizzlewood release and now to produce one final episode, instead of the Champion's releases.

 

-one more new map, alpine, more forests.

-give us the last 2 last norn shaman armor sets (snow leopard and wolf)

-MAYBE even one strike mission

-don't kill 2 Elder Dragons

-find out who made the Eye of the North.

-focus less on the charr and more on Jormag

-give way more emphasis on the norn, kodan and spirits and their origins

-leave Primordus for another set of DLCs that feature the depths, asura and dwarves (this time actually have the dwarves involved      with fighting Primordus himself and resolve what they their story, since it has been up and open from EotN to Steel and Fire                release)

-maybe give  some type of teaser trailer at the end of the story mission, similar to what happened at the end of LS1, LS2, HoT, LS3,      PoF and LS4 (I know this didn't show much for IBS). Maybe just even a small hint or gesture to what will happen next would have      been awesome

[Stephen.6312]

Goodbye GW2.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Eh. It's so-so, but at this point I recognize it's time to move the story on. The Elder Dragon thing was starting to get tiresome even before Kralkatorrik had his moments.

 

I think it's totally reasonable for the Deep Sea Dragon to have already been defeated by the Canthans at this point, so all the original Elder Dragons are gone, and the reason the world hasn't gone kaput yet is that the Canthans found a solution.

 

I'm sure the most powerful, unchallenged nation in the known world would have been able to defeat a single Elder Dragon given the disorganised mess that is central Tyria has been able to handle 5. It also would have had the time, effort and resources to come up with a solution without the need for interaction with Tyria, the Pact, the Commander etc. The world is bigger than them after all.

Edited April 30, 2021 by ThatOddOne.4387

[Teratus.2859]

Sad thing is despite how badly the IBS got trashed by some people I was in support of it up until this finale chapter.
Champions is ultimately where this all falls apart.

I was enjoying Jormag as well through this saga and originally I held the opinion that it was one of the better done Dragons, where as Kralkatorrik was more of a visual feast of destruction (which was epic) Jormag was largely offscreen but ever present and speaking which was a lot of fun and really helped build up this dragon into something to be scared of.

Champions really threw all that away, the ever cautious and intelligent Jormag spent so much time trying to avoid Primordus and gain the upper hand on it so that she could kill it and finally rid itself of it.. but then just went and yolo self deleted itself in the process despite what clearly looks like a very short fight that Jormag ultimately won.

I'll also point out there too that this is NOT! the first time those two have physically clashed before either, the last time Jormag got severely injured by Primordus which is why Jormag's blood is all over the Drizzlewood.
I find it pretty ironic that Jormag seemed to dominate Primordus in this round despite Primordus actually having a brain this time, not to mention way more magic than he's possessed in the past.
If anything Primordus should be smarter and MORE! dangerous than he ever was before.. and i'd have bet on Primordus coming out on top more than Jormag because of that.
The fact that Primordus didn't get a chance to shine in game really does cheapen his death significantly.. even if the IBS had ended with Primordus death he needed that spotlight moment.
Primordus has done literally nothing in Gw2 outside of sleep.. and I guess you can count eating rocks now as well.. that's all he's done and now he's just gone.

As for Braham.. maybe we can accept some mediocre Aurine did it excuse for how he's back to normal after Primordus death but Ryland and Banger do not get that luxury.
Elder Dragon corruption does not just revert when an Elder Dragon dies.. this was even a story point in the IBS prologue when Aurine was hunting and purifying Kralkatorrik's branded >.< 
Ryland and Banger should still be corrupted just like all the Risen, Mordrem and Branded that still exist in the world post death of their dragons.. not to mention Caithe who still retained her new form albeit lack of flowers after Aurine died.. and Aurine wasn't even an Elder Dragon at that point.
Braham "as far as we know" didn't even get to retain any side effects from his time as champion.. no fire power not even increased size which was the least he could have retained from it.. he's not even visibly wounded.. he just wakes up half naked in a pile of snow.. like it's the aftermath of a Norn Moot party.

Also his self loathing about all those "terrible" things he did as Primordus champion.. what terrible things?
He showed up and saved us in Fireheart Rise and then beat up a few of our allies in the final battle.. that's it.
When I read him saying that I honestly felt like there was some IBS chapter missing or something lol
Anet needs to elaborate on this one with some future story because frankly I don't get what he's so mad at himself about.. it just feels undeserved.

About the only good things I have to say about the champions finale story was Rylands death.
Having spent so much time around Rytlock it is clear that he is has changed a lot over the years and he has distanced himself from other Charr and in many ways their traditions.
Rytlock wanted a relationship with his son.. and through the whole IBS he's been trying to save Ryland.
After all that to have no choice but to put him down was great.. and the pain and regret he showed afterwards was perfect.

Ryland was completely beyond saving, a true lost cause kind of character and I loved Crecia's harsh and cruel words about how she's ashamed to be his mother and that she would have done the world a favour had she killed him as a child.. Ouch! like seriously dark and vicious.. but never the less true words there.
I really loved this moment overall and I wish the rest of the episode had been on this level and this dark.
I honestly loved that part.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Very true, Ryland's conclusion was the best part of the latest update. Very fitting.

 

I think we should cut ArenaNet some slack really, what with pushing this out under the current global climate, there's clearly had to be some cuts made and they themselves might not be happy with the results. But ultimately I think it will serve the story to move on from the Elder Dragons pretty pronto.

[Sznurek.8791]

Ehh, I really can't stand this ending. 
I won't call myself a huge lore guy but still I was playing the game since gw1, I literally might be done with the series, but I will give it a weeks to decide.
It was really a terrible job and honestly I believe the idea might not have been bad(the jormag and primordus fight might have been good way to get rid of them if they wanted to do it fast), but without the execution and time it's comically bad.(for exaample the fight should have been whole map with lots of story to explain what's happening and why, similar to dragonfall or dragon's stand).
I think it's super similar case like with Game of Thrones where season 8 probably ends similarly to books but how this happens is rushed/cut and doesn't make any sense.
Also we lose the most hyped antagonist of the series in a filler episode.(which is something really hard to forgive for gw1 veterans)

[EdwinLi.1284]

16 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

As for Braham.. maybe we can accept some mediocre Aurine did it excuse for how he's back to normal after Primordus death but Ryland and Banger do not get that luxury.
Elder Dragon corruption does not just revert when an Elder Dragon dies.. this was even a story point in the IBS prologue when Aurine was hunting and purifying Kralkatorrik's branded >.< 
Ryland and Banger should still be corrupted just like all the Risen, Mordrem and Branded that still exist in the world post death of their dragons.. not to mention Caithe who still retained her new form albeit lack of flowers after Aurine died.. and Aurine wasn't even an Elder Dragon at that point.
Braham "as far as we know" didn't even get to retain any side effects from his time as champion.. no fire power not even increased size which was the least he could have retained from it.. he's not even visibly wounded.. he just wakes up half naked in a pile of snow.. like it's the aftermath of a Norn Moot party.

Also his self loathing about all those "terrible" things he did as Primordus champion.. what terrible things?
He showed up and saved us in Fireheart Rise and then beat up a few of our allies in the final battle.. that's it.
When I read him saying that I honestly felt like there was some IBS chapter missing or something lol
Anet needs to elaborate on this one with some future story because frankly I don't get what he's so mad at himself about.. it just feels undeserved.
 

Braham's side effects from his corruption is certainly going to be one of those later story things since Icebrood saga was a rushed storyline. I suspect Braham's physical changes are more inner changes similar to how Logan and Zojja went through when Mordremoth used its corrupted ooze things to physically alter them back in Heart of Thorns.

However, as to why both Braham and Ryland reverted back to themselves instead of maintaining physical appearance (Ryland still had his fur a bit blue though), I have only been guessing it is related to how both of them had their connection severed from their Elder Dragons when they died. That and Braham's physical appearance was not that much of a change when he was corrupted by Primordus as looking at his appearance he basically only got slightly darker skin, glowing eyes, glowing chest, and rocks covering his arms. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Not what more to add that hadnr already been said, but this finale, no, most of this so called "saga" didn't merely disappoint me...it made me angry.  First it was the retcon of Smolder from a cunning and progressive leader into a deranged bloodthirsty fuckhead for no other reason than the writers needed drama within the United Legions and they were too lazy to write a better subplot.  Another was Tom whats-his-face blurting out that "Jormag doesn't lie" farce Out Of Game instead of letting us come to conclusion from what's in game.  And this so called Finale... what went right?  Utterly lackluster fight with a very contrived victory, no consequences for Braham becoming a dragon minion even with The Spirits aid and despite everything we've been shown happens to Ed minions after an ED'S death, completely tossing out the window YEARS of lore regarding killing and replacing Elder Dragons, and to add insult to injury they never gave us finished full models of either Primordus or Jormag.  We will never get to know what either looked aside from their heads and Jormag's hands.

 

All of this along with the various other issues Arenanet has had and done in the past few years has possibly put me off from buying EoD when it comes out.

 

Edit: did they take away user signatures too?

Edited May 1, 2021 by The Greyhawk.9107