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Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]


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I get the anger about everything but the Spirits being able to protect Braham to some degree. What's so strange about that? They're incredibly powerful magical beings, they SHOULD be able to do something to stand up to Elder Dragons, even if it's in a round-about way. The Elder Dragons are not the be-all-end-all magical beings on Tyria, this has long been established. You don't introduce powerful, significant characters like the Spirits of the Wild and then have their contribution mean precisely nil, that's not how stories work.

 

In fact, how the Spirits of the Wild were handled in general is one of the better points of Champions.

Edited by ThatOddOne.4387
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It really feels like there is missing content between the end of Chapter 3 and beginning of Chapter 4. There are a lot of off-screen events that are mentioned (clash between fire and ice forces, Braha

This finale is a huge disappointment. My biggest disappointment of the entire GW franchise so far.   Things were going great too. Zhaitan was a bit iffy. But Mordremoth was a huge improvemen

Hi everyone.    After being exposed to the disappointing finale of the Icebrood saga, I had actually sent in a support ticket to Anet discussing said disappointment.    They actual

Posted (edited)

Visions of the Past: Forging Steel had me excited both in terms of character cast and the type of content we would be getting in future releases.

Ryland's character arc, as well as the charr story experience, would've in general benefited a lot of from one or two more warband missions. While I've seen a lot of complaints saying Forging Steel is too long, in my opinion it took some elements from Guild Wars 1's missions and integrated them into the fundamental base of Guild Wars 2. And, for a first installment, it did so very well. The mission was enjoyable and felt fresh - on top of having an adjustable level of difficulty thanks to challenge motes. 

On top of the gameplay, we got to experience and familiarize ourselves with the Steel Warband. This adds more depth, not only to Ryland, but the charr as a whole. Which would've made their eventual demise all the more heartfelt - with Ryland coming across as a more sympathetic character. Which in turn would've yielded more bang for the buck that was Champion's End (with his death still being the "highlight" of the chapter). 

Having another visions chapter between Episode 3 and 4 would've also served to create a sense of longevity for the charr civil war; which, as of now, feels like got solved in the span of a few weeks. Also, thanks to visions releases being shorter and more concise (no new map), the devs would potentially get a short breather and be less taxed going forward.

Regarding the actual ending for the Icebrood Saga: have Primordus kill Jormag and escape into the deepest depths of Tyria, and Ryland die to the player and Rytlock. Once Cantha is said and done, we return to the Tyria in a manner reminiscent of GW1, where the tremors beneath the surface level are getting worse and worse, creating havoc all the way in Cantha and Elona alike.

Perfect setup for a final expansion where Primordus is killed as the last remaining elder dragon. An expansion that could, in homage to EotN and perfect thematic sense, revive dungeons. BAM.

Edited by NorthernRedStar.3054
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18 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Regarding the actual ending for the Icebrood Saga: have Primordus kill Jormag and escape into the deepest depths of Tyria, and Ryland die to the player and Rytlock. Once Cantha is said and done, we return to the Tyria in a manner reminiscent of GW1, where the tremors beneath the surface level are getting worse and worse, creating havoc all the way in Cantha and Elona alike.

Perfect setup for a final expansion where Primordus is killed as the last remaining elder dragon. An expansion that could, in homage to EotN and perfect thematic sense, revive dungeons. BAM.

Unless Arenanet pulled the biggest retcon in the franchise's history, its already too late for that to be a possibility.

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Unexpected. An outcome that managed to please no one. I suspect that at least one of their interested groups would've come out of this satisfied.

 

I'm heartbroken, of course. That's dealt the killing blow for me, I can't remain invested in something that's going to hurt me. With the loss of so many employees, I can't imagine there's anything worth sticking around for.

 

Well, that's an expenditure to strike off. I mean, I've spent an absolutely, ridiculously absurd amount of cash money on Guild Wars 2. Hm. I do wonder how many whales this will cost them? The majority of players just convert gold to gems, after all. I'm aware that a number of dragon fans who were also whales are calling it quits so this might hurt their bottom-line.

 

Well, whether it does or does not, whether Guild Wars 2 succeeds or succeeds not, my journey with it ends here in much the same way as Stephen's does. I'd wanted his theories to be right, I tend to want cleverness from video games but it seems I'll never learn that that never really happens outside of the independent space.

 

Maybe I'll learn this time? Hopefully, though I can be stubborn an IO Interactive has something with dragons in the works. I'm just such a sucker for dragons, and take that however you will. I'm not entirely sure I'll miss this game; It's been a grind, and most of it has been anguish that I've not enjoyed.

 

There's so much I had to emotionally deal with. The "death" of Aurene and the actual death of Blish to begin with. I was messed up by having to fight Kralkatorrik's brain parasite that forced mind controlling invasive thoughts upon him but I wasn't able to save him, that hurt me a lot. It was such a meaningful moment... I was so ready to save him. I wanted to save him.

 

I only came back because of Aurene, yet her character and the lack of development thereof—regression being stubbornly the only thing we saw from her throughout these stories—has disappointed me greatly. At the end of the day, she reminds me a little too much of Trahearne.

 

It hurts me to be so blasé about a dragon, but Aurene has just been such a letdown. I had so much hope. LWS4 ending with Kralkatorrik's death shook me but the ascent of Aurene spurred me to give this game another run. The story of how murdering dragons would lead inevitably to the destruction of the world perked me up, perhaps we'd find ways to deal with dragons and coexist with them rather than outright murdering them as part of some insecure power fantasy about how big our swords may or may not be.

 

I'm not even angry. I'm just sad and disappointed. There was so much potential here and it was squandered. I do suspect that in all likelihood this post will disappear in not too much time, as my posts do, so it'll be as entirely ephemeral and pointless as my own journey with this game has been.

 

That's how I'm left feeling at the end...

 

An emotionally fraught waste of time.

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8 minutes ago, Hypnowulf.7403 said:

Unexpected. An outcome that managed to please no one. I suspect that at least one of their interested groups would've come out of this satisfied.

 

I'm heartbroken, of course. That's dealt the killing blow for me, I can't remain invested in something that's going to hurt me. With the loss of so many employees, I can't imagine there's anything worth sticking around for.

 

Well, that's an expenditure to strike off. I mean, I've spent an absolutely, ridiculously absurd amount of cash money on Guild Wars 2. Hm. I do wonder how many whales this will cost them? The majority of players just convert gold to gems, after all. I'm aware that a number of dragon fans who were also whales are calling it quits so this might hurt their bottom-line.

 

Well, whether it does or does not, whether Guild Wars 2 succeeds or succeeds not, my journey with it ends here in much the same way as Stephen's does. I'd wanted his theories to be right, I tend to want cleverness from video games but it seems I'll never learn that that never really happens outside of the independent space.

 

Maybe I'll learn this time? Hopefully, though I can be stubborn an IO Interactive has something with dragons in the works. I'm just such a sucker for dragons, and take that however you will. I'm not entirely sure I'll miss this game; It's been a grind, and most of it has been anguish that I've not enjoyed.

 

There's so much I had to emotionally deal with. The "death" of Aurene and the actual death of Blish to begin with. I was messed up by having to fight Kralkatorrik's brain parasite that forced mind controlling invasive thoughts upon him but I wasn't able to save him, that hurt me a lot. It was such a meaningful moment... I was so ready to save him. I wanted to save him.

 

I only came back because of Aurene, yet her character and the lack of development thereof—regression being stubbornly the only thing we saw from her throughout these stories—has disappointed me greatly. At the end of the day, she reminds me a little too much of Trahearne.

 

It hurts me to be so blasé about a dragon, but Aurene has just been such a letdown. I had so much hope. LWS4 ending with Kralkatorrik's death shook me but the ascent of Aurene spurred me to give this game another run. The story of how murdering dragons would lead inevitably to the destruction of the world perked me up, perhaps we'd find ways to deal with dragons and coexist with them rather than outright murdering them as part of some insecure power fantasy about how big our swords may or may not be.

 

I'm not even angry. I'm just sad and disappointed. There was so much potential here and it was squandered. I do suspect that in all likelihood this post will disappear in not too much time, as my posts do, so it'll be as entirely ephemeral and pointless as my own journey with this game has been.

 

That's how I'm left feeling at the end...

 

An emotionally fraught waste of time.



I think the lack of Aurene's development was because they didn't want her to be the "end all" solution to everything elder dragon related. They didn't want her to step in and be the solution and make us feel like we don't matter anymore.

But at the end of the day, they had her hesitating just to say "YOLO" like everyone else this patch and dive straight in. And even then, she really only served as a device to help defeat them and didn't fulfill the purpose of containing the magic. So, I guess people sort of got what they wanted in terms of her not being the solution?

But we'll have to see how her role evolves in the expansion. I'm confident they can tell a more cohesive story with the expansion because the story is played all at once, but the conclusion of this saga definitely left me wondering about the quality of that story, no matter how cohesive it is.

I'm also leaning much more towards the idea that it isn't the DSD that's siphoning magic off from Aurene. To have the DSD all of a sudden decide to start forcing magic to itself after having defeated 3 other dragons before seems like an odd time to step in and start getting greedy. It leads me to believe there's something else at play here, but if it follows the current rushed plot trend it's probably the simpler solution.

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1 hour ago, ThatOddOne.4387 said:

Very true, Ryland's conclusion was the best part of the latest update. Very fitting.

 

I think we should cut ArenaNet some slack really, what with pushing this out under the current global climate, there's clearly had to be some cuts made and they themselves might not be happy with the results. But ultimately I think it will serve the story to move on from the Elder Dragons pretty pronto.

I have been pretty understanding about a lot of stuff tbh with the whole pandemic etc, was very vocal in my support for the no voice over patches even though I did personally think they should have been delayed.
I think Anet has gotten a lot of unjust backlash from some due to those issues but I think it's fair for people to be angry at this point about this subject at least.

It hits very hard that this story was just not feasible to do right with the time, people and resources they had on hand.
I wish they had decided instead to delay this patch or better yet completely re-written it to set up End of Dragons with a double Dragon death instead.
I think Wooden Potatoes hit the the nail on the head with that.. IBS should have ended with a clash but no deaths and End of Dragons should have opened in Tyria with an epic ending for both or at least 1 Dragon.
This would have given Primordus his chance to do something huge as well.

They pretty much did exactly this with Kralkatorrik, ending one episode with the Head fight and the next we got to chase him down in the mists which was gameplay wise kinda basic yes but visually amazing and epic and everything an Elder Dragon should be.
 

1 hour ago, ThatOddOne.4387 said:

I get the anger about everything but the Spirits being able to protect Braham to some degree. What's so strange about that? They're incredibly powerful magical beings, they SHOULD be able to do something to stand up to Elder Dragons, even if it's in a round-about way. The Elder Dragons are not the be-all-end-all magical beings on Tyria, this has long been established. You don't introduce powerful, significant characters like the Spirits of the Wild and then have their contribution mean precisely nil, that's not how stories work.

 

In fact, how the Spirits of the Wild were handled in general is one of the better points of Champions.

It's true they are very powerful but the Elder Dragons are significantly more powerful.. and I do mean significantly.
While the spirits are powerful beings they are little more than food to an Elder Dragon.
Even the Human Gods dared not to clash with Elder Dragons, even when there were more of them and each was individually weaker than they currently are.
While the Gods can and would be more likely to win against them just the sheer power the Dragons possessed was enough to warn them off.. regardless of whether the Gods win or loose to them the power unleashed from the battle would be catastrophic.. on a similar level of when they clashed with Abaddon a long time back which resulted in an entire ocean being wiped out into a desert.

That being one of the main disappointments of this particular finale as well, even with Aurines intervention the destruction unleashed by the deaths of Jormag and Primordus should have been so much worse, and we've had years of story to set that up as well.
Choosing to go this way has basically just said it's all wrong and everything we learned over years of storytelling and world building doesn't matter.
And when we ask ourselves why do that? the answer appears to be, because the story that's coming in the future demanded it.. and that only further diminishes our faith that said future content will be good.

I don't blame the developers.. if anything I blame the decision makers who decided that this was good enough.. this was Gw2 quality content and that it was ok to just half kitten the remainder of IBS to push forward with a paid expansion.
I do support and want paid expansions in Gw2, have been a vocal supporter of that since LW1.
But not at the expense of ongoing story content.. Anet made a decision to go with IBS over an expansion and they should have stuck with it no matter what.
 

1 hour ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Braham's side effects from his corruption is certainly going to be one of those later story things since Icebrood saga was a rushed storyline. I suspect Braham's physical changes are more inner changes similar to how Logan and Zojja went through when Mordremoth used its corrupted ooze things to physically alter them back in Heart of Thorns.

However, as to why both Braham and Ryland reverted back to themselves instead of maintaining physical appearance (Ryland still had his fur a bit blue though), I have only been guessing it is related to how both of them had their connection severed from their Elder Dragons when they died. That and Braham's physical appearance was not that much of a change when he was corrupted by Primordus as looking at his appearance he basically only got slightly darker skin, glowing eyes, glowing chest, and rocks covering his arms. 


I would think and Elder Dragon dying is connection severing enough lol
But corruption just doesn't work like that, the physical alterations of corruption has been permanent for so many other creatures.
Even with the spirits protection the physical changes should still remain for Braham.. I'd have bet on him being at least a bit taller and the darker skin being permanent.
I also think he should bear some kind of scarring disfigurement like burns on his arms or something.. that would be the least i'd expect.

As for Ryland and Bangar, their frozen bodies should stay, they had no Spirits protecting them and severing their connection to Jormag shouldn't undo those physical changes.
I would however say the magic empowering and protecting them would be gone though making it so that they could not survive outside of cold environments for extended periods of time anymore.. applied for all the surviving corrupted frost legion soldiers as well.
These Charr as well as the Icebrood and corrupted Sons would be forced live only in the Shiverpeaks and other cold locations going forward, unable to spend much time away from those low temperatures.
Not a big deal for the Norn since they live there anyway but for the Frost Legion it means exile from their homelands and they would have to built their own society somewhere out in the cold places of the world.

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15 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I have been pretty understanding about a lot of stuff tbh with the whole pandemic etc, was very vocal in my support for the no voice over patches even though I did personally think they should have been delayed.
I think Anet has gotten a lot of unjust backlash from some due to those issues but I think it's fair for people to be angry at this point about this subject at least.

It hits very hard that this story was just not feasible to do right with the time, people and resources they had on hand.
I wish they had decided instead to delay this patch or better yet completely re-written it to set up End of Dragons with a double Dragon death instead.
I think Wooden Potatoes hit the the nail on the head with that.. IBS should have ended with a clash but no deaths and End of Dragons should have opened in Tyria with an epic ending for both or at least 1 Dragon.
This would have given Primordus his chance to do something huge as well.

They pretty much did exactly this with Kralkatorrik, ending one episode with the Head fight and the next we got to chase him down in the mists which was gameplay wise kinda basic yes but visually amazing and epic and everything an Elder Dragon should be.
 

It's true they are very powerful but the Elder Dragons are significantly more powerful.. and I do mean significantly.
While the spirits are powerful beings they are little more than food to an Elder Dragon.
Even the Human Gods dared not to clash with Elder Dragons, even when there were more of them and each was individually weaker than they currently are.
While the Gods can and would be more likely to win against them just the sheer power the Dragons possessed was enough to warn them off.. regardless of whether the Gods win or loose to them the power unleashed from the battle would be catastrophic.. on a similar level of when they clashed with Abaddon a long time back which resulted in an entire ocean being wiped out into a desert.

That being one of the main disappointments of this particular finale as well, even with Aurines intervention the destruction unleashed by the deaths of Jormag and Primordus should have been so much worse, and we've had years of story to set that up as well.
Choosing to go this way has basically just said it's all wrong and everything we learned over years of storytelling and world building doesn't matter.
And when we ask ourselves why do that? the answer appears to be, because the story that's coming in the future demanded it.. and that only further diminishes our faith that said future content will be good.

I don't blame the developers.. if anything I blame the decision makers who decided that this was good enough.. this was Gw2 quality content and that it was ok to just half kitten the remainder of IBS to push forward with a paid expansion.
I do support and want paid expansions in Gw2, have been a vocal supporter of that since LW1.
But not at the expense of ongoing story content.. Anet made a decision to go with IBS over an expansion and they should have stuck with it no matter what.
 


I would think and Elder Dragon dying is connection severing enough lol
But corruption just doesn't work like that, the physical alterations of corruption has been permanent for so many other creatures.
Even with the spirits protection the physical changes should still remain for Braham.. I'd have bet on him being at least a bit taller and the darker skin being permanent.
I also think he should bear some kind of scarring disfigurement like burns on his arms or something.. that would be the least i'd expect.

As for Ryland and Bangar, their frozen bodies should stay, they had no Spirits protecting them and severing their connection to Jormag shouldn't undo those physical changes.
I would however say the magic empowering and protecting them would be gone though making it so that they could not survive outside of cold environments for extended periods of time anymore.. applied for all the surviving corrupted frost legion soldiers as well.
These Charr as well as the Icebrood and corrupted Sons would be forced live only in the Shiverpeaks and other cold locations going forward, unable to spend much time away from those low temperatures.
Not a big deal for the Norn since they live there anyway but for the Frost Legion it means exile from their homelands and they would have to built their own society somewhere out in the cold places of the world.


Honestly, Braham should have felt somekind of consequences from it or had some lasting effects. Sure the spirits were "protecting" him, but clearly not enough to prevent his body from turning into lava and rock. I guess we're assuming the physical effects of corruption are only based on something metaphysical or spiritual to the dragon. But then we have so many cases where we've had slain elder dragons with minions that don't go back to normal.

That's one of the things I would have liked to have seen this season. Seeing Aurene be more active about healing the brand, healing former dragon minions or doing stuff in Orr to continue cleansing it. Maybe that's something we can see after End of Dragons in a small living world season just traveling across the map healing various areas.

But another thing about the spirits is just that they didn't really get that much development. They were involved, sure, but we didn't learn much about them. Accepting that they somehow saved Braham of corruption and were pivotal to this whole "prophecy" would have been a lot more believable if they weren't just thrown in as plot devices or adventure games.

In regards to the Gods, that's definitely another big thing. If the balance of the All isn't important and we don't actually need a certain number of Elder Dragons, why were the gods so worried about creating a war with them? Because they were afraid of the devastation it would cause? Clearly it isn't that much as we just killed two and all that we see, in the current story, is a bunch of ice spikes sticking out of the ground. 

Maybe some of that will be evident later on in the content leading up to the expansion, but it feels like something should have been done at the end of this episode to allude to or convey it. 

And continuing on the Gods, I have to wonder why they're on such a high level in comparison to the the elder dragons when it seems the majority of them were just mortals that had power transferred to them. (Presumably from the ancients in Xotecca or whatever.) But I wonder if that's something we might see happening in Cantha and the Aetherblade involvement. Maybe we're dealing with humans that have found ways to greatly empower themselves to near that level. Who knows.

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I think pretty much however you were expecting IBS to end, this was pretty disappointing. The fight itself was pretty decent, but... there was a lot of setup in Episodes 0-4 that really deserved more of a payoff. I found Jormag proving to be a villain after all pretty much inevitable after observing how they interacted with Aurene, but that could have been built up a bit more before the turn happened. The conflict between Primordus and Jormag after Braham merged could also have done with a bit more development than one dragon mission too (could have been interesting, for instance, to have had a dragon mission where we end up having to protect a settlement from Braham until he regained control). We do get some dialogue in Aurene's chamber indicating that Braham has been running riot and is under Primordus' control more often than not, but that's something that could have been better shown, not told.

 

I can understand that it was rushed a bit because they want to get EoD out, but the really tragic thing in my mind? It's not like End of Dragons is just around the corner so they had to compress the timeframe to finish in time for the EoD release. We had two months between One Path Ends and Path of Fire. Now, we're getting three months of filler events before the EoD marketing even properly begins. They could have kept IBS going up to early July, say, finished IBS with a teaser, and then had the livestream. Even with a skeleton crew, they could probably have done a better job with another couple of months.

 

The only real explanation I can see is that they pretty much just lost interest in IBS. Which, if they're really enthused about End of Dragons, is somewhat understandable... but it's still a bad look. EoD is now always going to feel like a massive missed opportunity... even more than the Lazarus bait and switch.

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15 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I can understand that it was rushed a bit because they want to get EoD out, but the really tragic thing in my mind? It's not like End of Dragons is just around the corner so they had to compress the timeframe to finish in time for the EoD release. We had two months between One Path Ends and Path of Fire. Now, we're getting three months of filler events before the EoD marketing even properly begins. They could have kept IBS going up to early July, say, finished IBS with a teaser, and then had the livestream. Even with a skeleton crew, they could probably have done a better job with another couple of months.

^This.. so much this..
I couldn't agree more.

I'll always take delays over a poor release.. that's not even up for debate, always delay it until it's good.

I can hope that some day they'll go back and revisit this part of the game, improve it but after all these years waiting on living world 1 I'm not going to get my hopes up.

I just hope that IBS isn't some kind of foreshadowing for End of Dragons.. after all these years of waiting to see Cantha again, if EOD ends up disappointing as strongly as this finale and Primordus did.
I hate to say it but I will expect a massive exodus of players leaving the game.. and I don't think Gw2 at this point can afford for that to happen.

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Yeah. If they'd said that the livestream was mid-may for a July release, then I could understand the rush. Unfortunate, but understandable. But instead we're getting three months of keep-you-busy activities.

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Posted (edited)

It really feels like there is missing content between the end of Chapter 3 and beginning of Chapter 4. There are a lot of off-screen events that are mentioned (clash between fire and ice forces, Braham killing innocents, etc.). Most jarring to me is how Jormag goes from "I will not fight without a very clear advantage" to going double-suicide aggression, while Aurene goes "I will not fight because I worry about the consequences" to "balance needs a push, so I shall shove it".

 

And the saddest thing of this, is that three simple things could have been done differently to greatly improve the finale without any real budget increase:

1. Use Lost Spirits to draw Jormag to the location. Primordus was already after Jormag so no need to argue a lure for him. While a story instance for reaching the Lost Spirits would be ideal, could just say Ryland and Jormag stashed them at Anvil Rock and Ryland shows up to prevent them from leaving without changing location.
2. Jormag shows up first, not second, and Aurene traps them with crystals to prevent retreat. Bonus: Jormag goes after Aurene at the end to get a last ditch powerboost, and Primordus chomps down on Jormag's exposed throat and Primordus does the double suicide attack. Double bonus: give Primordus two simple lines. "Kill! Ice!" on arrival, and "Kill! Ice!" -pause- "Betrayer!" at the double suicide line; why betrayer? Left for players to theorize! One thing this finale lacked that every other finale, even Season 4 and the personal story with their conclusive states had, was something left for players to go "what did it mean!?" over. And if getting a "new" VA for Primordus' three words would be too much, could just re-filter Braham's "Kill! Ice!" line with one extra word.
3. Braham is left burning, maybe not full burning he had, but is physically scarred and is given the same effect as Ryland to show he's not gonna recover anytime soon if at all (low health bar doesn't really portray this enough to people it seems).

 

As to the disappointing direction they're going with Aurene being the One True Elder Dragon, they really needed to give solid hints for this bad direction in the story. I know some folks like Sajuuk like to say Kralkatorrik's lines of "she's the first of her kind" is hints but... it really isn't, because we've spent five years being told that balance of magic != balance of the all, and being able to handle conflicting magic is simply put not the same as being able to hold a high quantity of magic.

 

Suddenly having Aurene just trying to take the place of three Elder Dragons out of nowhere with zero buildup is just bad.

 

This is such a disappointing release, that it feels like it's no coincidence that forums didn't come back for until four full days after the finale launched, just as it's no coincidence the summer roadmap was released just before the patch. ArenaNet knew it was a bad release, and went with it anyways. And worse yet? THEY MOVED IT UP A MONTH FROM THE ORIGINAL RELEASE DATE.

 

Like, what the hell ArenaNet? Use that month to improve the finale if you've got it!

 

And that's not even going into Draxynnic's point of us not having any EoD marketing for another three months, which could have been used for more IBS skeleton crew content. Turn it from one four-part episode into two three-part episodes, end champions with Balance, put in a short VotP single mission (same effort as Judgment, really), and then do another three-part episode. Most of Champions was done and in the gw.dat back when Truce was released eight months ago by all indications.

 

Even if all we got for the next three months was bimonthly Judgment quantity content, using those three months to pad out the finale would have been far better than... this.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Not to mention millions of plot holes. They could actually throw up a decent ending insctnce, with some dialogues filling up this holes. Like what is happening to norn women that were captured by Jormag, how are charr high ranks looking now and how Crecia became imperator while not even beeing related to the blood branch of Khan-Ur family, how it is possible that Braham reverted to his normal form after dragons deaths and if spirits are so powerful to revert dragons corruption or at least shield from it than why they didn't shield other norn that were corrupted by Jormag while fighting against his champions, not to mention how he and Ryland even survived the blast that tore apart both elder dragons. So many questions and all we get is YEEEY you killed next two dragons now you can close the game and never come back when expansion is released! I am starting to feel like i am playing old Mario Bros... Go to some place, Kill a dragon, Save the princess (Braham). No lore, no fun gameplay (just compare this whole Dragonstorm to Dragon Stand or at least Dragonfall), and even new eye infusion seem to be impossible to drop.

  • The Svanir killed any women.
  • Mia Kindleshot replaced Smodur. Efram controls Flame. Crecia controls Blood. Malice controls Ash.
  • Pretty much any Charr alive could claim being related to the Khan Ur due to how bloodlines work. Even in real life it only takes going back a few generations to relate most people.
  • We already saw back after HoT that Sylvari who got changed into Modrem Guard were able to revert back to their original forms so long as they had the strength of will to do so.
Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

Can't agree more. Jormag was the most compelling character and antagonist the game has introduced period, imo. The voice acting was spot on, and I was deeply invested in seeing what their grandmaster plan was, how we were falling right into their carefully laid trap. In the end Jormag's guile, intelligence, and their "persuasion" domain meant truly nothing. All of that set up and development was discarded so they could shoe horn in a terrible ending that was a disservice to how compelling and complicated Jormag seemed to be, and also discarded Primordus - the creature that literally ushered us in to GW2 - as a floating head with 10 whole minutes of screen time. What a joke.

Except it wasn't discarded, nor did it mean nothing. Jormag's manipulations literally started IBS with his manipulation of Bangar, and we ran that story to its logical end with Jormag Rising, where we beat its manipulated forces. After the manipulation has been exposed, its hard to manipulate people who already know what you are going to pull. The only thing left is dealing with the people who drank so much of the kool-aid they can't see straight... which is what we did cleaning up the Frost Legion forces and Ryland in champions.

 

11 hours ago, Swizzle.7982 said:

But Primordus is gone too. The amount of wasted potential really just makes me so incredibly sad. Like many other players who saw Primordus in GW1 I was looking forward to him finally getting the spotlight. As a huge Asura fan too I've been looking forwards to finally seeing "their" dragon. For the last 14 years, I've wanted to go back to the depths of Tyria, to discover lost Asuran cities, to find out what remains of the dwarves, to finally see Primodus as the world ending threat that he was promised to be after we killed the great destroyer in the central transfer chamber all those years ago.

We already got both of those stories though.

 

For the Asura. Going back to HoT we got Rata Novus, a lost underground Asuran city, where the residents had refused to go to the surface, and were looking for ways to beat Primordus. Their research not only proved pivotal in defeating Moredremoth, but also discovering Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses. Rata Novus continued to play a big part into LWS3, as a base we revisited. The Draconis Mons release, which revolved around Primordus, further expanded upon that story by having the survivors of Rata Novus go to Draconis Mons, and found Rata Arcanum. They eventually got killed by the Druids, and now the Inquest are looking to try to dig up their secrets, and we have to stop them.

 

For the Dwarves. We covered most of the old dwarf lands, from Iron Horse Mines in the north, to Droknar and Port Sledge in the south, back in vanilla. With Ogden being a minor character in vanilla, who got expanded upon in LWS2. LWS3 gave us Rhoban in Ember Bay, as well as the dwarven mechanisms they used to control the volcanoes there. This got expanded on in PoF, where Rhoban is part of a Priory expedition into an expansive dwarven ruin in the Desert Highlands. We explore these ruins, and reforge some ancient dwarven weapons. This story gets expanded even further in LWS4, where we get Thunderhead Peaks, the last major dwarven region not covered in core. Not only do we get to go to Thunderhead, and defend it, we get to go inside it, find the dragonsblood forge, and literally work with a dwarven ghost to make new dragonsblood weapons. The dragonsblood weapon collection being about imitating the legends of the dwarven heroes. The dwarves turned themselves into immortal beings of stone that don't require food, water, or sleep, to endlessly fight destroyers, at the end of EoTN. There is no dwarven culture, or civilization remaining. There are no dwarven cities, no dwarves just farming. At most they would have some war camps where they wait around between smashing dragon minions, and where they put forges to repair/make new weapons. If we went underground to see them all we would see them doing is what we see them doing in the Thunderhead Peaks DRM... smashing dragon minions.

 

Both the "lost asuran underground cities" and "legacy of the dwarves" storylines had been done before IBS even began.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
  • We already saw back after HoT that Sylvari who got changed into Modrem Guard were able to revert back to their original forms so long as they had the strength of will to do so.

I would find this more meaningful if Sylvari weren't already Dragon minions to begin with.

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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Most jarring to me is how Jormag goes from "I will not fight without a very clear advantage" to going double-suicide aggression...

This is not jarring at all. Jormag was forced into the situation. Knowing what we were doing, wouldn't stop the plan from working.

 

Normally, the minions of an Elder Dragons will gather the magic, and if there is resistance, a champion in sent in to curb the defence. So the plan was to stop the main mionins, which forces the champions on the board. Because Jormag and Primordus are both equal at this point, neither would leave to give the other more magic so if one champion comes, the other would be forced to follow. 

 

The next step would be to cut off their main attacking force (other than themselves): the Champions. With Ryland and Braham neutralised, Jormag and Primordus would be forced to fight to gain the magic. If Jormag leaves, Primordus gets the magic which would put the Fire Dragon ahead and Jormag would lose. If they are equal and Jormag stays, they both die. Jormag had no other option.  That 'double-suicide aggression' was Jormag taking Primordus down with them.

 

If Jormag didn’t come at that point, Primordus would get stronger (that would balloon and snowball to getting stronger and Jormag wouldn’t stop be able to stop it.)  Leave and Primordus would win, or Jormag will attack and take their brother with them. That last cry and clash was not Jormag trying to win; it was taking their brother down with them.

 

Jormag had planned for a lot but didn’t account for Braham corrupting himself. Like Braham says, “Jormag's not expecting us—kitten's too cocky.” And Aurene says, “You look down on them. That's a flaw.”

 

Also, note that during the fight, Jormag tries to gain an edge by siphoning magic by themselves, but we cut them off. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I would find this more meaningful if Sylvari weren't already Dragon minions to begin with.

Braham and Ryland "reverted" because we cut off the connection. The big thing that happened to Ryland and Braham is NOT that the dragons died, but what happened before. Aurene cut off the Dragons' connections to their champions.

Quote

Aurene: I can tap into the ley line and cut Jormag and Primordus off from any magic not their own.

and 

Quote

Taimi: Our plan might even increase Braham's chance of surviving the, um, "afterclash" let's call it.

That's the difference. There was no being cutting off a Dragons magic from other minions in the past.

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1 hour ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

This is not jarring at all. Jormag was forced into the situation. Knowing what we were doing, wouldn't stop the plan from working.

 

Normally, the minions of an Elder Dragons will gather the magic, and if there is resistance, a champion in sent in to curb the defence. So the plan was to stop the main mionins, which forces the champions on the board. Because Jormag and Primordus are both equal at this point, neither would leave to give the other more magic so if one champion comes, the other would be forced to follow. 

 

The next step would be to cut off their main attacking force (other than themselves): the Champions. With Ryland and Braham neutralised, Jormag and Primordus would be forced to fight to gain the magic. If Jormag leaves, Primordus gets the magic which would put the Fire Dragon ahead and Jormag would lose. If they are equal and Jormag stays, they both die. Jormag had no other option.  That 'double-suicide aggression' was Jormag taking Primordus down with them.

 

If Jormag didn’t come at that point, Primordus would get stronger (that would balloon and snowball to getting stronger and Jormag wouldn’t stop be able to stop it.)  Leave and Primordus would win, or Jormag will attack and take their brother with them. That last cry and clash was not Jormag trying to win; it was taking their brother down with them.

 

Jormag had planned for a lot but didn’t account for Braham corrupting himself. Like Braham says, “Jormag's not expecting us—kitten's too cocky.” And Aurene says, “You look down on them. That's a flaw.”

 

Also, note that during the fight, Jormag tries to gain an edge by siphoning magic by themselves, but we cut them off. 

 

 


If any Dragon has a strong survival instinct it would have been Jormag.
I've said it myself as well that this move was really out of character for Jormag.
Even with the two of them as equals Jormag would have chosen retreat, live to fight another day when it has the advantage.
Especially when there is such huge and obvious interference going on from us and Aurine.
Jormag would have known we were there to end them both and it would not have stuck around to let it happen, and it certainly would not have been the one to just do it for us.

Keep in mind that they have clashed before, possibly multiple times and Jormag was severely injured in the last battle (hence it's blood all over Drizzlewood) yet both Dragons survived because Jormag fled.

The way they depicted the final clash was extremely short and overwhelmingly in Jormags favour.. Primordus looked like he was completely outclassed despite the two being equal in power.
Not to mention Primordus this time around had a higher intelligence than before thanks to his Champion.
If anything Primordus should have been more dangerous than ever before.
Jormag ended both of them with seemingly little effort which really doesn't do either dragon justice in the end.
 

Edited by Teratus.2859
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1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Even with the two of them as equals Jormag would have chosen retreat, live to fight another day when it has the advantage.
Especially when there is such huge and obvious interference going on from us and Aurine.
Jormag would have known we were there to end them both and it would not have stuck around to let it happen, and it certainly would not have been the one to just do it for us.

No, no, no. Jormag CANNOT retreat. If they did, Primordus would have gained the magic and Jormag would lose their champion. They would be so far behind, that Primordus would snowball to be beyond their capabilities.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Keep in mind that they have clashed before, possibly multiple times and Jormag was severely injured in the last battle (hence it's blood all over Drizzlewood) yet both Dragons survived because Jormag fled.

And Jormag says this during the fight, "I've stayed my hand before, brother. No more." That means Jormag chose not to retaliate back then. The key difference is now Jormag is trapped; they are out of options!, "What choice, then, do I have but to shift the balance of power by whatever means I can?" 

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13 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Even the Human Gods dared not to clash with Elder Dragons, even when there were more of them and each was individually weaker than they currently are.

We've been over this before. The Human Gods didn't fight the Elder Dragons because of the collateral of THEM fighting, not fighting the Elder Dragons in general. When Gods fight, it causes devastation, as seen by them turning an entire ocean into desert when they fought Abaddon. For whatever reason, the Gods are not able to hold back or regulate their power, or alternatively, if they held back, the dragons would defeat them and get their magic. As has been said many many many many times on this forum before, it was a lose-lose situation specifically for the Gods. It should not be used to draw any conclusions about what happens when mortals or other magical beings get involved with fighting Elder Dragons.

 

I never said the Spirits of the Wild were as powerful as the Elder Dragons or the Gods, but they are powerful ENOUGH to shield one singular person, with all of their effort, from draconic corruption.

 

Let them have that.

 

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As to the disappointing direction they're going with Aurene being the One True Elder Dragon, they really needed to give solid hints for this bad direction in the story.

 

I don't think they are. Most of the magic went elsewhere. Most likely to Cantha, whether that's other Elder Dragon replacements set up by the Canthans, or a Canthan method of dealing with dragon magic, remains to be seen.

 

Oh, and unrelated to that. Why do people think Jormag had it all cool and collected and together? What gave you that impression? The impression I got from Jormag's dialogue is that they were kitten crazy, just in a different manner to Primordus and Kralkatorrik, and probably the others too.

 

"Jormag would have retreated" You have no authority to say that, and no evidence to back it up beyond the assumption that Jormag was fully in control of their faculties at the point the conflict started, which they obviously weren't.

 

 

Edited by ThatOddOne.4387
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

Braham and Ryland "reverted" because we cut off the connection. The big thing that happened to Ryland and Braham is NOT that the dragons died, but what happened before. Aurene cut off the Dragons' connections to their champions.

Bangar apparently reverted along with an associated tremendous amount of trauma too. So it seems like Jormag's magic got siphoned off from all over the world after Jormag blew up.

 

There might be more to this reverse corruption than Anet is letting on, but well I think Anet is just being too secretive about the final dragon this close to the next expansion. Maybe the living world replay achievements will help filter out the noise and any red herrings about the dragons, and give us a clearer picture on information relevant to the deep sea dragon. This vague notion that something just yoinked all that magic is just too ambiguous.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As to the disappointing direction they're going with Aurene being the One True Elder Dragon, they really needed to give solid hints for this bad direction in the story. I know some folks like Sajuuk like to say Kralkatorrik's lines of "she's the first of her kind" is hints but... it really isn't, because we've spent five years being told that balance of magic != balance of the all, and being able to handle conflicting magic is simply put not the same as being able to hold a high quantity of magic.

You can keep trying to straw man what I actually said until you are able in the face, wont change that this isn't what I actually said.

 

Aurene doesn't need to hold a high quantify of magic. Glint herself mentions the whole point of her plan was to replace the old Elder Dragons, who selfishly horded magic for themselves, with Elder Dragons that would SHARE the magic.

 

As said during Path of Fire(at 4:02)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EHiSVKCbY

"These vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magi rather than horde it"

 

And during LWS4EP5 War Eternal

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_%26_Champion

  • Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
  • Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.
  • Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
  • Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
  • Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
  • Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
  • Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial

 

Aurene doesn't need to hold the magic because she is sharing it with everyone around her in a small way. The most people she shares it with, the more she can take in without it affecting her.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Posted (edited)

Admittedly it was disappointing to me as well.
I thought we'd get to see some epic combat between Jormag and Primordus.
I really enjoyed IBS, I thought that the approach and writing got a bit more mature, we got to see a lot about the Charr, we witnessed a more 'brutal' approach, the Warband mission was amazing, music was breath-taking and I really, really enjoyed it...up until we imprisoned Bangar. 
I really liked Bangar and I had hoped he'd have a much bigger role in all of this, that he'd become quite a nemesis even.

Anyway, Jormag was a huge disappointment, Primordus even more.
Primordus had been 'spoken of' as the one who woke up first, the one who bore significant weight to the story and everything...especially as we encounter Destroyers in EotN and see him 'waking up' more or less.
Drakkar was a major disappointment of a fight and model, Jormag totally got ruined in this finale, and Primordus didn't get a moment to shine at all. 
I really wish we'd get something like a special cinematic or something to describe more about the conflicts; or heck even a small battle between these two, a memorable battle between two elder dragons.

I enjoyed the little twist with Aurene when we fought Kralkatorrik in Thunderhead Keep, I enjoyed IBS and I thought that story would have had a huge breath-taking ending; instead it felt shallow, unsatisfying and without leaving any form of emotion, other than 😐 face.
 

I am aware that pandemic situation is affecting us all, but a delay wouldn't have been a problem for any of us, as long as it meant delivering quality story and content.
While some of us are kind of fed-up of elder dragon threat, rushing the story like this isn't good for anybody.
Looking forward to Cantha and hoping that the story keeps its quality and good pace. Please don't rush it ANet ❤️ 

 

Edited by Blur.3465
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5 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

This is not jarring at all. Jormag was forced into the situation. Knowing what we were doing, wouldn't stop the plan from working.

Jormag showed up second to the fight. Ryland is not so special that Jormag couldn't replace him, and Jormag has Mists-hopping abilities thanks to Kralkatorrik's death, so there was no reason Jormag couldn't just keep running.

 

Jormag was NOT actually forced into the situation.

50 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Aurene doesn't need to hold a high quantify of magic. [...] Aurene doesn't need to hold the magic because she is sharing it with everyone around her in a small way. The most people she shares it with, the more she can take in without it affecting her.

 

But the issue is that Aurene is not sharing that magic. Outside of the Commander and Caithe, there's no mortals who've been bonded to Aurene. The extent of Aurene sharing magic is simply not absorbing it - which is the very issue of killing Elder Dragons, that there's too much magic in the world. So Aurene "not hoarding magic" isn't solving the issue that is presented on one hand.

 

And on the other hand, I would still argue that ArenaNet has firmly established that the balance of magic != the balance of The All. And Aurene being able to withstand all kinds of conflicting magic, doesn't strictly mean that she can balance The All by herself.

 

Now, I would personally argue that it would be an all too conveniently contrived explanation to just say "Aurene can do the job of six Elder Dragons because she's super special", but if they actually showed this in the game, it'd make at least a bit of sense. But the issue is that it is not said that she can do it. It's theorized by certain players, and disagreed with by other players. It's not even implied by the characters in the story. She just suddenly tries to do it, when failure to do so would mean (eventual) world destruction - same issue, admittedly, to just having Aurene replace Kralkatorrik without a replacement for Zhaitan or Mordremoth.

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