Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]

[Plagiarised.2865]

9 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag showed up second to the fight. Ryland is not so special that Jormag couldn't replace him

Disagree. 

1. Ryland is very special to Jormag. Jormag sees Ryland's kind as rare, "Oh, there are some exceptions. I can see why you've bound yourself to your commander."

2. And retreating and finding another champion on par to Ryland would still give Primordus time to get ahead, which would snowball, and Jormag would still lose.

13 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag has Mists-hopping abilities thanks to Kralkatorrik's death, so there was no reason Jormag couldn't just keep running.

Which is still irrelevent. Jormag retreats, recoups their losses, Primordus increases in power, Jormag loses later. Its checkmate. 

[Jaken.6801]

Here is what I would have been kinda fine with (though it would still need a better Primordus story beforehand, with dwarfes, deeps and everything)
 

• Jormag and Primordus going at each other, because the latter instigates it
• Jormag is actually trying to flee, calling Aurene for help, even offering her to free the people in return
• Aurene hesitates, but when she intervenes, it's too late and what she does only allows for the mutual destruction
• Aurene jumping in to protect the armies which are fighting, absorbing the energy
• She then starts to crack, scream, winding, as the energy of two at once is too much for her, forcing her to leash out like Krakaltorik before and she goes into hibernation, with one last call: "search for mother"
• Afterwards, Ryland, braham stuff. Maybe they still punch each other for the bow, which gets just tossed in brahams face, who then collapses.

 

That isn't perfect, but it would be at least be something with a bit more bite and engagement.

More so in terms of presentation, there could be done so much more, than we got here.

[Jaken.6801]

3 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

Disagree. 

1. Ryland is very special to Jormag. Jormag sees Ryland's kind as rare, "Oh, there are some exceptions. I can see why you've bound yourself to your commander."

2. And retreating and finding another champion on par to Ryland would still give Primordus time to get ahead, which would snowball, and Jormag would still lose.

Which is still irrelevent. Jormag retreats, recoups their losses, Primordus increases in power, Jormag loses later. Its checkmate. 

Hm...

1. Just because she found out why it is so "useful" or "rare"  to a more sentient elder dragon, doesn't mean i can't be replaced or substituted. A champion is a tool and seeing how it only became relevant with this season, as well as the fact that Braham has to push himself unto Primordus till he was "tasty" enough is a sign.

More so, because the "champion" status is not really explained enough. Gameplaywise Braham and Rytlock grew massive (because, magic, doh), so why doesn't Aurene support us in a similiar fashion?
It's actual usefullness doesn't seem to be higher than any other Leutnant or "leader" we saw with other dragons. I mean Mordremoth had some, Zaithan had some.

2. Well, a strategic retreat isn't a bad thing, more so with what Jormag is able to do. Sure Primordus can increase it's power, but was more or less on par with Jormag now. The thing is, having him gain a bit more power, while Jormag siphons somewhere else, while setting her pieces right (she had hostages for example). She could have found ways to get support from other ways. She could have been the smart adversary, who gathers an army of her own, exploiting the weeknesses like we do with Aurene. Having others do the dirty work for her. Sending them out, to regain land, cut off primordus, etc.
It didn't have to be a clash. She could have been smart.
This was no checkmate situation.

[Plagiarised.2865]

26 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

that there's too much magic in the world.

Where did you get that specifically that magic in the world outside Elder Dragons is the issue. If the cycle of magic seeps out of the dragons and then back in, then the amount of magic doesn't change. So you are saying the magic goes out of the Elder Dragons to the outside world is the issue, but that happens everytime at the end of their sleep. 

[Plagiarised.2865]

5 minutes ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Sure Primordus can increase it's power, but was more or less on par with Jormag now. The thing is, having him gain a bit more power, while Jormag siphons somewhere else

But the small amounts of magic over Jormag means more chances against Jormag's forces, which means more magic, which means are better lead over Jormag, and hence the snowball. 

[Zola.6197]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Now, I would personally argue that it would be an all too conveniently contrived explanation to just say "Aurene can do the job of six Elder Dragons because she's super special", but if they actually showed this in the game, it'd make at least a bit of sense. But the issue is that it is not said that she can do it. It's theorized by certain players, and disagreed with by other players. It's not even implied by the characters in the story. She just suddenly tries to do it, when failure to do so would mean (eventual) world destruction - same issue, admittedly, to just having Aurene replace Kralkatorrik without a replacement for Zhaitan or Mordremoth.

 

This is the most egregious element of this whole situation to me. It just baffles me that this wasn't addressed *at all* in game. There is absolutely no work done to retcon, debunk, or reinforce any of this by *any* character. Taimi, Aurene, the Commander -- perhaps the three figures most crucially tied to the plot points that set up these elements -- do not ask any questions pertaining to the knowledge they've gained over the course of the story since season 3. There's no theorizing, no research done, nothing. The characters just ignore the facts as they know them as if those elements never existed.

 

And sorry, but Aurene saying the word "balance" fifty times with no real context does not actually address the subject.

 

Would it really have been so hard to write a scene to even sloppily establish new information? Couldn't cut one or two DRMs to fill in the gaps of this massive hole in the lore, plot, and character knowledge? It would've sucked but at least it would have given some semblance of sense to the finale of Icebrood Saga.

[Teratus.2859]

2 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

No, no, no. Jormag CANNOT retreat. If they did, Primordus would have gained the magic and Jormag would lose their champion. They would be so far behind, that Primordus would snowball to be beyond their capabilities.

They were both cut off from the magic though, that was part of the story there.
Aurine's part in this was to lure them both there with magic and then cut them off to make them fight.
If Jormag had retreated there wouldn't have been that much there for Primordus to consume because of Aurine.
She was even controlling the flow of magic to lure them there in the first place.
Ryland still retains a lot of his intelligence as well so if Jormag had commanded him to retreat he would have.

I expect it would have been very easy in this situation for Jormag to figure out what was going on and use us as a decoy to make it's escape.. leaving us to deal with Primordus alone.

 

2 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

And Jormag says this during the fight, "I've stayed my hand before, brother. No more." That means Jormag chose not to retaliate back then. The key difference is now Jormag is trapped; they are out of options!, "What choice, then, do I have but to shift the balance of power by whatever means I can?" 

Jormag wasn't really trapped though, it was pushed to attack I guess but it wasn't trapped there.
We also get this info when talking to Gorrik.
 

"So we get them to clash and they'll destroy each other?"

Gorrik: That's the hope. However, Jormag is aware of this outcome and will move to avoid it. Thus, the plan: lure both to a ley-line nexus, then cut them off from their magic source.

He does mention them fighting being akin to two magnets being pulled together but still.. Jormag is highly intelligent, aware of this outcome and actively doesn't want this fight without a clear advantage.
Even with the pull to fight Primordus I would still expect Jormag to have the sense to back off.. not just delete itself trying to kill it's brother.
Primordus was a rampaging force of nature, this kind of thing is what I would expect from him.. but not Jormag, Jormag was depicted as too intelligent to go out like this imo.
That's also why it doesn't make sense that that clash ended with Jormag being the one kill them both, it would have fit better if Primordus has done it.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag showed up second to the fight. Ryland is not so special that Jormag couldn't replace him, and Jormag has Mists-hopping abilities thanks to Kralkatorrik's death, so there was no reason Jormag couldn't just keep running.

 

Jormag was NOT actually forced into the situation.

 

But the issue is that Aurene is not sharing that magic. Outside of the Commander and Caithe, there's no mortals who've been bonded to Aurene. The extent of Aurene sharing magic is simply not absorbing it - which is the very issue of killing Elder Dragons, that there's too much magic in the world. So Aurene "not hoarding magic" isn't solving the issue that is presented on one hand.

 

And on the other hand, I would still argue that ArenaNet has firmly established that the balance of magic != the balance of The All. And Aurene being able to withstand all kinds of conflicting magic, doesn't strictly mean that she can balance The All by herself.

 

Now, I would personally argue that it would be an all too conveniently contrived explanation to just say "Aurene can do the job of six Elder Dragons because she's super special", but if they actually showed this in the game, it'd make at least a bit of sense. But the issue is that it is not said that she can do it. It's theorized by certain players, and disagreed with by other players. It's not even implied by the characters in the story. She just suddenly tries to do it, when failure to do so would mean (eventual) world destruction - same issue, admittedly, to just having Aurene replace Kralkatorrik without a replacement for Zhaitan or Mordremoth.

Jormag was forced into the situation because we had already demolish all of its plans to manipulate Bangar into making a massive army for it, and had already stopped as much of its attempts to freeze people over to gain more power. At this point its now or never because Primordus can just keep growing easily by burning. Its plans were foiled, and it can't pull the same trick twice now that everyone is aware of how it works.

 

Also, there isn't too much magic in the world. There was before Aurene ascended, but after her ascension we see all the giant ley infused bounties, and volatile/unbound magic vanish from future maps. Aurene's ascension reverted the magic problem of the world back to HoT levels at least. And she is sharing it not just with the commander and Caithe, but shes giving out her power to all of the Crystal Bloom(in much smaller amounts)

 

1 hour ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Here is what I would have been kinda fine with (though it would still need a better Primordus story beforehand, with dwarfes, deeps and everything)
 

• Jormag and Primordus going at each other, because the latter instigates it
• Jormag is actually trying to flee, calling Aurene for help, even offering her to free the people in return
• Aurene hesitates, but when she intervenes, it's too late and what she does only allows for the mutual destruction
• Aurene jumping in to protect the armies which are fighting, absorbing the energy
• She then starts to crack, scream, winding, as the energy of two at once is too much for her, forcing her to leash out like Krakaltorik before and she goes into hibernation, with one last call: "search for mother"
• Afterwards, Ryland, braham stuff. Maybe they still punch each other for the bow, which gets just tossed in brahams face, who then collapses.

This doesn't make much sense. After all the stuff Jormag has pulled, the idea that of the our heroes, especially Aurene who suffered direct verbal abuse from Joramg, would even pause to consider anything it says, is straight nonsense.

 

Also, with the way Kralk spoke of her, I would assume mother is dead. The way Kralk said mother was very reminiscent of that cliche where someone dies, and their loved one lives on for years after trying to fulfill some goal or their, or get vengeance, and after doing so they die, and their last words is the name of their deceased love one. It really didn't seem like a call out to someone who is alive.

[Jaken.6801]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This doesn't make much sense. After all the stuff Jormag has pulled, the idea that of the our heroes, especially Aurene who suffered direct verbal abuse from Joramg, would even pause to consider anything it says, is straight nonsense.

 

Also, with the way Kralk spoke of her, I would assume mother is dead. The way Kralk said mother was very reminiscent of that cliche where someone dies, and their loved one lives on for years after trying to fulfill some goal or their, or get vengeance, and after doing so they die, and their last words is the name of their deceased love one. It really didn't seem like a call out to someone who is alive.

 

Why not?
Jormag has hostages. She can bargain for help. Can offer to let them go, offer knowledge, make false promises, etc. She has a lot of options to go by.
Sure we can't trust her, but still, she can give us what we need.

Also what did she really do? She didn't lie. She said she would do it her way. We just don't like her way. She was very open to Aurene.
We decided both are dangerous.

So far, we don't know anything about Mother, or anything at all. We just know she exist(ed).

She is much more a mystery than the elder dragon of water.
And that's only because Anet is dangling the water dragon key in front of us the whole time, instead of actually implementing anything meaningful of it into the game.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Why not?
Jormag has hostages. She can bargain for help. Can offer to let them go, offer knowledge, make false promises, etc. She has a lot of options to go by.
Sure we can't trust her, but still, she can give us what we need.

Also what did she really do? She didn't lie. She said she would do it her way. We just don't like her way. She was very open to Aurene.
We decided both are dangerous.

So far, we don't know anything about Mother, or anything at all. We just know she exist(ed).

She is much more a mystery than the elder dragon of water.
And that's only because Anet is dangling the water dragon key in front of us the whole time, instead of actually implementing anything meaningful of it into the game.

Because Jormag has already tried this, and gone back on it every time. Aurene would have to be mega dumb to even consider it, and Jormag would have to be ultra dumb to thing Aurene was mega dumb enough to even consider it.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

For the Asura. Going back to HoT we got Rata Novus, a lost underground Asuran city, where the residents had refused to go to the surface, and were looking for ways to beat Primordus. Their research not only proved pivotal in defeating Moredremoth, but also discovering Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses. Rata Novus continued to play a big part into LWS3, as a base we revisited. The Draconis Mons release, which revolved around Primordus, further expanded upon that story by having the survivors of Rata Novus go to Draconis Mons, and found Rata Arcanum. They eventually got killed by the Druids, and now the Inquest are looking to try to dig up their secrets, and we have to stop them.

That's not what Swizzle meant and you know it. Rata Novus might have been underground and lost, but it was founded after Rata Sum by asura who wanted to go back to living underground. Swizzle was talking about the cities that the destroyers forced the asura to flee from like Quora Sum.

 

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But the issue is that Aurene is not sharing that magic. Outside of the Commander and Caithe, there's no mortals who've been bonded to Aurene. The extent of Aurene sharing magic is simply not absorbing it - which is the very issue of killing Elder Dragons, that there's too much magic in the world. So Aurene "not hoarding magic" isn't solving the issue that is presented on one hand.

I think part of the problem here is that we don't know just how that whole "sharing magic" thing works.

 

I don't think it's as simple as "Aurene gives out magic to her minions Chosen". Because that would mean she was basically doing the same thing the other Elder Dragons were - hoarding magic either in themselves or in those they've formed a connection with, the only difference being that Aurene's allies get to retain free will. 

 

I suspect what's actually going on is that Aurene has set up a magic cycle. She's releasing magic into the ley lines even as she absorbs it, with as much magic being carried away from her as towards her. This would mean that there's still technically more magic in the world, but it's all flowing along circuitous paths that ultimately end up back at Aurene. This makes it available to everyone, but because it's always being drawn along paths that ultimately return to Aurene, it has a lot less opportunity to build up to dangerous levels in any specific locations or to latch on to other random creatures and overload them with magic. It certainly felt to me that Aurene would have preferred not to kill Jormag and Primordus, and that doing so has likely made her job of managing this circulation harder, but reached the point where she concluded that it was the least bad option.

 

Problem is that this is piecing together a hypothesis based on what little we've been given combined with seeing similar processes used in at least one other setting. By now we should know what Aurene is actually doing, at least in broad strokes, rather than guessing. There's still far too much that ArenaNet is keeping close to their chest that should be known to the PCs at this point, simply because the game doesn't let us ask Aurene the right questions. It feels a bit like (similar to the whole Mordremoth namedrop thing) ArenaNet is already assuming that the PC knows without having actually thought to let us know.

[Bast.7253]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's not what Swizzle meant and you know it. Rata Novus might have been underground and lost, but it was founded after Rata Sum by asura who wanted to go back to living underground. Swizzle was talking about the cities that the destroyers forced the asura to flee from like Quora Sum.

 

I think part of the problem here is that we don't know just how that whole "sharing magic" thing works.

 

I don't think it's as simple as "Aurene gives out magic to her minions Chosen". Because that would mean she was basically doing the same thing the other Elder Dragons were - hoarding magic either in themselves or in those they've formed a connection with, the only difference being that Aurene's allies get to retain free will. 

 

I suspect what's actually going on is that Aurene has set up a magic cycle. She's releasing magic into the ley lines even as she absorbs it, with as much magic being carried away from her as towards her. This would mean that there's still technically more magic in the world, but it's all flowing along circuitous paths that ultimately end up back at Aurene. This makes it available to everyone, but because it's always being drawn along paths that ultimately return to Aurene, it has a lot less opportunity to build up to dangerous levels in any specific locations or to latch on to other random creatures and overload them with magic. It certainly felt to me that Aurene would have preferred not to kill Jormag and Primordus, and that doing so has likely made her job of managing this circulation harder, but reached the point where she concluded that it was the least bad option.

 

Problem is that this is piecing together a hypothesis based on what little we've been given combined with seeing similar processes used in at least one other setting. By now we should know what Aurene is actually doing, at least in broad strokes, rather than guessing. There's still far too much that ArenaNet is keeping close to their chest that should be known to the PCs at this point, simply because the game doesn't let us ask Aurene the right questions. It feels a bit like (similar to the whole Mordremoth namedrop thing) ArenaNet is already assuming that the PC knows without having actually thought to let us know.

I mean, that's kind of the big issue here. We don't know anything. We're just having to make assumptions. I'm not saying there needs to be a solid rulebook on the ins and outs because I know they're all about keeping plot points open and creating mystery after mystery in case of a rainy day... 

But I feel like we maybe should have spent a few less chats bickering back and forth with Bangar and Jormag in the Eye of the North vaguely eluding to the "balance" and hinting at us finding out more about the elder dragons and more time actually discussing with Aurene what she's learned or what she knows. Which doesn't seem to be much outside of the.. "Oh wait... I can force ley lines to do something now because I'm prismatic." 

Like, okay, glad you just had this epiphany. 

As far as sharing magic goes, I kind of wonder if this is going to be a lore explanation for the new upcoming elite specs. Like Aurene will result in people across Tyria having a greater capacity for magic in general. 

As far as the general introduction, I kind of prefer Konig's idea of having Jormag show up first and Primordus have a bit of a minor victory. As it stands there wasn't really anything intimidating about Primordus and we can make the assumption that it was because of what Braham did and the meddling of the spirits, but that's again relying the player to fill in the blanks. 

For that matter, I feel like it may have just been better having the champions or the dragons initiate the fight rather than have us come up with some reasoning for coaxing them to an area with ley lines. They were already at each other's throats and were bound to fight anyway... and it feels almost worse to me having us essentially trick them into meeting on this battlefield.

And why that area to begin with? Just feels extremely thrown together.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's not what Swizzle meant and you know it. Rata Novus might have been underground and lost, but it was founded after Rata Sum by asura who wanted to go back to living underground. Swizzle was talking about the cities that the destroyers forced the asura to flee from like Quora Sum.

The problem with this argument is that there would be zero functional difference between Rata Novus/Rata Arcanum, and a hypothetical other underground Asuran city that was lost to the destroyers. Any major narrative point such as

• Taimi(or another Asura) freaking out over finding a lost Asuran city of significance.
• Clearing out infesting pests.
• Finding lost technology.
• Dealing with the Inquest.

 

Was already covered by the above two. The only difference there would really be is the size of the city, but given the size of IBS maps, and them splitting the maps in half, any Asuran city we would have seen in IBS couldn't have been particularly expansive.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Plagiarised.2865]

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

They were both cut off from the magic though, that was part of the story there.

They were cut off from magic not their own, and their champions. They still have the magic within them directly.

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

If Jormag had retreated there wouldn't have been that much there for Primordus to consume because of Aurine.

Aurene is no match for Primordus at his current level. The whole point is that Jormag's power is equal to Primordus. Jormag leaves, we leave, Primordus get the magic, Primordus overpowers Jormag, Jormag loses later on.  

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Ryland still retains a lot of his intelligence as well so if Jormag had commanded him to retreat he would have.

And free will. I doubt Ryland would listen. Even if he did, that small increase of power Primordus gets would snowball into more victories against Jormag. Retreating would be losing later on.

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

been very easy in this situation for Jormag to figure out what was going on

The thing I think people are not realising, is that Jormag knows whats happening. Its just knowing it doesn't change the fact they are forced into it. Jormag knows the plan is to force them to clash at equal levels, that why even during the fight, Jormag tries to gain enough of an edge by siphoning the magic directly, but we stop them.

[Teratus.2859]

3 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

 

They were cut off from magic not their own, and their champions. They still have the magic within them directly.

Aurene is no match for Primordus at his current level. The whole point is that Jormag's power is equal to Primordus. Jormag leaves, we leave, Primordus get the magic, Primordus overpowers Jormag, Jormag loses later on.  

Yes, but what I meant was that Aurine cut them off from the magic they came there to feed on.
That's why the second point doesn't make sense there.
Primordus wouldn't be able to access that magic and feed on it giving Aurine the time she needs to divert it away like she did to divert it there in the first place.
They established that Aurine has the power to manipulate the flow of magic in the world so in theory she could keep these dragons chasing it around endlessly if she wished.. like a big game of magic hot potato lol

Besides it's not like there are no other hotspots, the leyline network is massive and Jormag has the ability to pretty much teleport itself anywhere through the mists, an ability Primordus does not appear to have either.

So Primordus would have a very very difficult time tracking Jormag down for that second encounter, especially if he cannot access the mists.
Jormag could potentially even leave Tyria entirely and stay in the mists till Primordus went back to sleep winning the fight that way by feeding on the mists to sustain itself as Kralkatorrik did.
 

Quote

And free will. I doubt Ryland would listen. Even if he did, that small increase of power Primordus gets would snowball into more victories against Jormag. Retreating would be losing later on.

Free Will he claims to have.. I wouldn't put it past Jormag to take control when it deems it necessary.
After all Jormag did exactly that with Banger over and over again through the IBS.
 

Quote

The thing I think people are not realising, is that Jormag knows whats happening. Its just knowing it doesn't change the fact they are forced into it. Jormag knows the plan is to force them to clash at equal levels, that why even during the fight, Jormag tries to gain enough of an edge by siphoning the magic directly, but we stop them.

But Jormag also has an agenda, goals and plans for the world etc that all depend on it being alive to enact them.
It wanted to be free of it's brother and alive to enjoy that freedom, I just don't buy that Jormag would destroy itself just to rid the world of Primordus.
Jormag is too intelligent and devious for that.. and cowardly in many ways as well.
Even if it did mean Primordus gets stronger I strongly believe that Jormag would have run regardless and tried to prolong it's survival as much as possible.

[nopinopa.4861]

Well... They killed the idea "don't kill all the dragon", they made Aurene just a magic sponge, then they uncorrupted the champions, and we've never seen non-sylvaries being uncorrupted... They basically said to us "we don't care about the lore anymore", so OK, I won't care about the lore either, since now it's pointless, the lore can be forgot any minute because they need to end the Saga or next expansion (just like they got rid of the whole Nightmare Court story line in HoT) or next lw asap.

 

I have never thought that I'll become the one from the "weekly login - raid clear // daily login - take a reward" kind of player, but I guess there is no other choice for me. After this finale I completely lost interest in exploring the game further and deeper.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The problem with this argument is that there would be zero functional difference between Rata Novus/Rata Arcanum, and a hypothetical other underground Asuran city that was lost to the destroyers. Any major narrative point such as

• Taimi(or another Asura) freaking out over finding a lost Asuran city of significance.
• Clearing out infesting pests.
• Finding lost technology.
• Dealing with the Inquest.

 

Was already covered by the above two. The only difference there would really be is the size of the city, but given the size of IBS maps, and them splitting the maps in half, any Asuran city we would have seen in IBS couldn't have been particularly expansive.

You know this is the lore forum, right?

 

There's a lot of history in those cities that the asura have lost. Some of it may have been MacGuffins, some of it might just have made for an interesting picture of what the asura were actually like before they were forced to the surface. 

 

And if you reduce narrative points to such basic values, it's not like ArenaNet has never been repetitive before. There's a reason why people refer to the main antagonist of the Path of Fire campaign as "Balthaddon", and that's just scratching the surface. Heck, you don't have to go much farther in reductionism to boil every GW plot down to "fight bad guys, collect a Macguffin or two, use Macguffins to beat the big bad". Apart from the ones that skip steps 2 and 3, of course.

Edited May 2, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Zola.6197]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's a lot of history in those cities that the asura have lost. Some of it may have been MacGuffins, some of it might just have made for an interesting picture of what the asura were actually like before they were forced to the surface. 

And all these things can be used as catalysts for the development and depth of individual characters, or stories that dig into the cultural identity of the asura. One of the failings of GW2 in my opinion is that the writing rarely focuses on the small scale personal stories. It doesn't often dig into how the characters are personally affected by anything, unless that character is Braham. GW2 really misses that character-driven aspect most of the time, so a good portion of the cast just feel like hollow archetypes vs dynamic people.

 

Going underground to seek out old Asuran cities wouldn't just provide a new wealth of information and attention on the asura, but it's also fertile ground to explore personal stories for characters like Taimi, Gorrik, Zojja, Kuda, or even Kudo and Blish posthumously, and how they relate to their identity as asura -- something I feel Icebrood Saga brushed up against with the charr in a compelling way that they sadly didn't see through to the end. But personally, Crecia, Rytlock, Ryland, and Bangar were some of the most compelling characters the game has presented us in a long time for those reasons. We got down to the nitty gritty personal details, how they relate to "being charr" and how that cultural identity has shaped them. The asura could benefit similarly if we took the time to put the lens on them.

 

Especially getting Taimi and Zojja back in a room together, how they relate to one another after all this time, and depending on how difficult Zojja's recovery has been, Taimi and her former mentor could tell a story about what it means to have physical and/or mental limitations in asuran culture. Gorrik can gain some more depth as he witnesses Taimi degenerate slowly, and how that provokes any loss he's experienced over Blish -- can he handle losing the only other person alive that's close to him? Has Zojja been hiding away, isolating herself during her (hypothetically) years long recovery? Ashamed to be so vulnerable and unable to participate in the cutthroat world of asuran academia?

 

Of course, these kind of personal stories don't *need* to be paired with going back underground, but it would a logical and poignant time to explore those characters and their cultural identity.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/1/2021 at 2:07 PM, Plagiarised.2865 said:

Disagree. 

1. Ryland is very special to Jormag. Jormag sees Ryland's kind as rare, "Oh, there are some exceptions. I can see why you've bound yourself to your commander."

2. And retreating and finding another champion on par to Ryland would still give Primordus time to get ahead, which would snowball, and Jormag would still lose.

Which is still irrelevent. Jormag retreats, recoups their losses, Primordus increases in power, Jormag loses later. Its checkmate. 

1. But even then, Jormag's still fully capable of replacing Ryland. I wouldn't say that Ryland being seen "as rare" would prevent Jormag from replacing Ryland just as they replaced Drakkar almost immediately. Even if we take all of Champions and replace all references to Ryland, the Commander, and Braham with the unique dragon champion title of "Herald", who's deaths do impact the Elder Dragon unlike standard champions, these champions are still replaceable. As evident by the fact that Drakkar was Jormag's herald and (seemingly) replaced by Ryland, or the Great Destroyer with (presumably) the Destroyer of Life with Braham.

2. Retreating would  still have given Jormag a chance to recover and get strength again, knowing that Aurene and co. would want to weaken Primordus because he's causing devastation. Besides, Primordus was awake for 50 years before Jormag woke, and the two both awake for 150 years after that before this direct confrontation even began. And Jormag survived previous dragonrises despite direct battles. So it isn't a clear "one chance only or death" situation, Even if Primordus keeps getting more powerful despite Aurene and Commander's efforts, Jormag could just hide away and continuously flee until Primordus is forced into slumber by lacking magic to draw from, even if it takes a few hundred years - to Jormag, hundreds of years should seem like nothing because of how old and long-lived Elder Dragons are.

On 5/1/2021 at 2:24 PM, Plagiarised.2865 said:

Where did you get that specifically that magic in the world outside Elder Dragons is the issue. If the cycle of magic seeps out of the dragons and then back in, then the amount of magic doesn't change. So you are saying the magic goes out of the Elder Dragons to the outside world is the issue, but that happens everytime at the end of their sleep. 

Literally everything from Season 2, where we're first introduced with The All as a name and something that can break the world if imbalanced?

Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

This line itself reflected in the very situations that are Thaumanova Reactor and Bloodstone Fen, where an overflow of magic is causing issues. Then we have all the ley line events in Season 3's Side Stories, caused by the deaths of two Elder Dragons resulting in an overflow of magic in the world.

Then we have Taimi in Season 3:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...

Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?

Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection#Dialogue

(This line with the simulation cinematic is technically telling us that "while overflow of magic is bad, the imbalance of The All/Elder Dragons and killing a third without replacement is worse". Which is never addressed post-Season 4, because I guess Aurene can handle not just conflicting magic, but six Elder Dragons' worth of magic and their positioning in The All, despite not bonding and sharing magic with more than two mortals.)

And to your exact comment of "If the cycle of magic seeps out of the dragons and then back in, then the amount of magic doesn't change." That is changing the quantity of magic in the world by putting it into the Elder Dragons.

And it is an issue, as established by Sadizi, the kodan, and devs, the Elder Dragons balance magic by balancing it from extremes. They let it grow until it's borderline "too much magic" and then shrink it down until there's not enough to sustain them, being borderline "too little". This, along with their malicious nature, is the major issue of the current Elder Dragon cycle system that Glint sought to change. Hence the whole "share magic with mortals" thing.

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.

Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward#In_Kesho

On 5/1/2021 at 3:19 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag was forced into the situation because we had already demolish all of its plans to manipulate Bangar into making a massive army for it, and had already stopped as much of its attempts to freeze people over to gain more power. At this point its now or never because Primordus can just keep growing easily by burning. Its plans were foiled, and it can't pull the same trick twice now that everyone is aware of how it works.

 

Also, there isn't too much magic in the world. There was before Aurene ascended, but after her ascension we see all the giant ley infused bounties, and volatile/unbound magic vanish from future maps. Aurene's ascension reverted the magic problem of the world back to HoT levels at least. And she is sharing it not just with the commander and Caithe, but shes giving out her power to all of the Crystal Bloom(in much smaller amounts)

The dialogue between Jormag and Aurene established that Jormag's still creating an army. We never dashed Bangar making a massive army for it - that was the Frost Legion. It wasn't as big as Bangar intended, but it was still an army provided, and after that Jormag went to make a larger army. It isn't "now or never", not really. Especially since Jormag could just hop into the Mists and pull a Kralkatorrik by eating the afterlife to gain more power that way as a true last ditch effort (I call such because it very likely would lead to Jormag's already growing insanity).

 

On 5/1/2021 at 3:19 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also, there isn't too much magic in the world. There was before Aurene ascended, but after her ascension we see all the giant ley infused bounties, and volatile/unbound magic vanish from future maps. Aurene's ascension reverted the magic problem of the world back to HoT levels at least. And she is sharing it not just with the commander and Caithe, but shes giving out her power to all of the Crystal Bloom(in much smaller amounts)

Aurene has shown zero signs of absorbing more magic in the world and in fact Icebrood Saga explicitly states that Primordus and Jormag has only gotten more powerful after Kralkatorrik's death - and not just through their actions with the Frozen and causing destruction, but since before awakening they got power from Kralkatorrik's domain itself.

And the removal of the bounty system doesn't say much because ArenaNet explicitly decided not to do bounties where the Order of Shadows don't show up - this is why there are none in Thunderhead Peaks or Dragonfall; it's also why we have non in Grothmar, Bjora, or Drizzlewood. Despite this, there are creatures with ley-line effects (the 10 cache keepers, the three centurions with Claw of Jormag, the five Asgeir's Legacy champions, etc.). And there are still volatile magic nodes in the three maps.

Lastly, there is ZERO evidence that Aurene is sharing magic with the Crystal Bloom; they don't even use any crystal magic, only haul around prisms that infuse Caithe and the Commander with magic or provide PBAoE buffs. So her "sharing magic" is restricted to... Caithe, Commander, her prisms.

Sounds to me that Aurene is currently hoarding or letting go all the magic she gets. Not sharing it.

If she is sharing it, which as I see it there is no proof of yet, then ANet's doing a very bad job at both telling and showing.

 

Now you could be right for all we know. But the issue is that we don't know (and you're acting that we do). Everything you list, is really just map mechanics of Heart of Thorns/Season 3 and Path of Fire/Season 4. And ArenaNet doesn't share map mechanics between seasons (for the explicit reason that they're tied to seasonal currency, masteries, and story). The issue is that it's never told, hinted, implied, or shown to us.

20 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think part of the problem here is that we don't know just how that whole "sharing magic" thing works.

 

I don't think it's as simple as "Aurene gives out magic to her minions Chosen". Because that would mean she was basically doing the same thing the other Elder Dragons were - hoarding magic either in themselves or in those they've formed a connection with, the only difference being that Aurene's allies get to retain free will. 

 

I suspect what's actually going on is that Aurene has set up a magic cycle. She's releasing magic into the ley lines even as she absorbs it, with as much magic being carried away from her as towards her. This would mean that there's still technically more magic in the world, but it's all flowing along circuitous paths that ultimately end up back at Aurene. This makes it available to everyone, but because it's always being drawn along paths that ultimately return to Aurene, it has a lot less opportunity to build up to dangerous levels in any specific locations or to latch on to other random creatures and overload them with magic. It certainly felt to me that Aurene would have preferred not to kill Jormag and Primordus, and that doing so has likely made her job of managing this circulation harder, but reached the point where she concluded that it was the least bad option.

 

Problem is that this is piecing together a hypothesis based on what little we've been given combined with seeing similar processes used in at least one other setting. By now we should know what Aurene is actually doing, at least in broad strokes, rather than guessing. There's still far too much that ArenaNet is keeping close to their chest that should be known to the PCs at this point, simply because the game doesn't let us ask Aurene the right questions. It feels a bit like (similar to the whole Mordremoth namedrop thing) ArenaNet is already assuming that the PC knows without having actually thought to let us know.

The issue there is that doesn't solve the issue of overflowing magic that Season 3 firmly established through the ley-line events. Aurene HAS to take in a certain level of magic - enough that we're at the level of magic in HoT or maybe during Season 3, which basically means 4 Elder Dragons + a Balthazar's worth of magic - and contain it, even if she's letting it perpetually cycle through her, her bonded, and the world.

And through Glint's Trials, we learn the way to mitigate the pain of having too much magic, is to share it with those she bonded with. I think the difference ebtween "corrupted" and "bonded" is that sharing versus greedy notion - that bonded get shared magic, while corrupted get their magic siphoned (which could explain why corrupted dragon minions are always after magical sources - if they have a perpetual drain on theirs, they'd need to gather more to survive, let alone serve their dragon). But the Commander and Caithe alone, being mortals as they are, won't be able to help Aurene with two (now four) Elder Dragons' worth of magic.

I would have expected to begin seeing Prismatic Crystal Bloom, truth be told, in IBS.

 

And I agree, the large problem is that we're hypothesizing on why things are okay now. Whether it's because Aurene's the One True Elder Dragon Crystal Dragon Jesus and can handle magic without any sharing, or is somehow sharing, or the system is just sharing with the world, or fixing magic, or whathaveyou - I've seen ten different theories on why "everything's okay now". None of them are really solidly founded. Because we don't have an inkling of a clue as to why everything is okay.

 

We just have hypotheses and guesses based on map design choices that are from a developer perspective easily labeled as "because it's no longer Season 3 or 4" (ley-line bounties, volatile magic nodes, unbound magic nodes, glidable ley lines).

Edited May 2, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The problem with this argument is that there would be zero functional difference between Rata Novus/Rata Arcanum, and a hypothetical other underground Asuran city that was lost to the destroyers. Any major narrative point such as

• Taimi(or another Asura) freaking out over finding a lost Asuran city of significance.
• Clearing out infesting pests.
• Finding lost technology.
• Dealing with the Inquest.

 

Was already covered by the above two. The only difference there would really be is the size of the city, but given the size of IBS maps, and them splitting the maps in half, any Asuran city we would have seen in IBS couldn't have been particularly expansive.

TBH, I think you're being a bit too narrow minded in the possibilities here, and I'd say that for how you react to most story beats that ANet has glossed over with IBS or that people want to see. Though I do agree there'd be some overlap, a big deal for it would be more for getting the players there, than any story beat involved with going there. Even if it was just one city, and that city was nothing more than serving as a base of operations in the open world / story path, and held zero other significance other than giving us a look at pre-Destroyer asuran lifestyle, that's all the players would care for.

 

No need for characters freaking out over finding a lost city, dealing with Inquest, or even finding lost (and outdated) technology. Just being there, with the equivalent of these guys scattered around giving us lore on the place, would be sufficient for most players. 

 

And as others have said, going to these cities could simply be used as a catalyst for character development - especially of Gorrik, Taimi, Zojja's return, and/or the Arcane Council, without a mcguffin in the city itself.

[Zok.4956]

On 4/30/2021 at 7:54 PM, Sir Alric.5078 said:

 

So they knew that their finale was GARBAGE, yet they chose to release it anyway? What the actual f**k!

Isn't that basically admitting that they don't give a kitten anymore?  

 

It also could mean, that most of the devs still care a lot about the game, but upper management made some bad decisions.

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

TBH, I think you're being a bit too narrow minded in the possibilities here, and I'd say that for how you react to most story beats that ANet has glossed over with IBS or that people want to see. Though I do agree there'd be some overlap, a big deal for it would be more for getting the players there, than any story beat involved with going there. Even if it was just one city, and that city was nothing more than serving as a base of operations in the open world / story path, and held zero other significance other than giving us a look at pre-Destroyer asuran lifestyle, that's all the players would care for.

 

No need for characters freaking out over finding a lost city, dealing with Inquest, or even finding lost (and outdated) technology. Just being there, with the equivalent of these guys scattered around giving us lore on the place, would be sufficient for most players. 

 

And as others have said, going to these cities could simply be used as a catalyst for character development - especially of Gorrik, Taimi, Zojja's return, and/or the Arcane Council, without a mcguffin in the city itself.

And I think you are too open minded with possibilities, to the point most of the things you suggest don't make much sense from a narrative standpoint.

 

(note the following is a general statement not directed at you specifically)

The problem with fandom is that its inherently illogical, and irrational. It involves putting undue importance on something that is fundamentally not important. In the process, you end up warping the thing you are a fan of into something it isn't, and instead of actually liking the thing itself, you end up liking the version of the thing that is in your head. Which is always more elaborate then the thing that actually exists. We see this in Guild Wars fandom all the time.

 

A prime example is Joko. People complained ad nauseam that Joko could have gotten an entire season because he was such an important lore character... except he kinda wasn't. Joko back in GW1 was a guy briefly mentioned in lore as someone who utterly failed to take over Elona because he didn't understand how supply lines work, which opened up a weakness for Turai Ossa to exploit. After his defeat he was imprisoned for hundreds of years, with no successful break outs, and he only gets out because we let him out. Even then, we don't let him out because we need his armies, or because hes some master sorcerer who can level cities, or anything like that. We let him out to learn how to ride wurms. Joko is, in fact, so weak and powerless he needs us to do everything for him to rebuild his power(such as reclaiming his staff, and eliminating traitorous generals)

 

His takeover of Elona between Gw1 and Gw2 wasn't due to some great tactical brilliance on his part. It was simply because no one but a handful of Sunspears tried to stop him, and he was able to look at a map and make a deduction about Elona's water supply a 10 year could. But Joko, being an incompetent narcissist, made an empire equally as bad as he was. He failed to destroy the Sunspears, Order of Shadows, or the dissident movement, despite trying for anywhere from decades to over a hundred years. Hes failed to take over Amnoon despite trying for years. And his desire for self absorbed yes men had led to equally incompetent people being put in charge over the various villages, leading to large scale civil unrest. Even if the Commander and Balthazar hadn't shown up, his empire could have collapsed in a decade or two at the rate it was going, something even the Order of Shadows was aware of because they planned to prop Kossan as the leader of this new Elona once Joko fell.

 

When it comes to Joko in GW2, throughout Path of Fire we systematically break apart all of his operations from as far north as the Desert Highlands, all the way through the Desolation, and into Vabbi. We kill many important military/civilian leaders, break his blockade of Amnoon, lure wurms to trash a major fort, help the Sunspears establish a new secure base in Vabbi, etc. etc. And with LWS4EP1, we help the Istani Sunspears lead a full scale revolt on Istan, leading to his corsair mercs getting destroyed, his loyalists in the city getting killed, and the Mordant Cresant's main base getting trashed and its leaders killed. Even if he somehow survived the events of Gandara, the only place Joko had left to flee too would be Jahai(which would make for a rather ironic historical parallel) but any Joko sotry at Jahai would just be what we just did in Gandara, i.e. getting everyone in Elona to beat on Joko until hes finally dead or imprisoned again. His story ended there because there really isn't much more to take his story. By the time Gandara rolled around he had lost most control over the vast majority of Elona, his empire was in shambles, and all of his important close allies were either dead/deserted.

 

This same thing can be said for Lazarus, an incompetent creature, from a race we had already fodderized by the end of Prophecies, and thus shouldn't be much of a threat in G2 where our heroes are much more powerful.

 

The same could be said for Bangar as well. Had Jormag not been manipulating things from the get go(spurring Bangar into action in the first place, using storms/Ice constructs to delay us, and control his movements, letting him use its power to build the Frost Legion army for it) the whole Bangar story would have been over in half the time it was as is, because without all that Bangar simply doesn't have the power to realistically stand against not only the other three Legions, but all the other allies of the Legions who would naturally come to their aid against someone trying to break apart the Alliance they have all worked hard for. Even with the help of an Elder Dragon the Bangar plot couldn't let even half the IBS because it really isn't logically that big. Without it, it would have been over even quicker.

 

The same can be said for the Asura/Dwarves. As explained previously.

 

And we already have a base of operations for IBS, that being the eye, and Rata Novus already served as a quasi base of operations in LWS3. And the whole Arcane ACounsil thing was also done in IBS, and Taimi has gotten tons of character devlopment, and already got that kind of character development from Rata Novus. Again, you're asking for something that the game has already gone over rather extensively.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Aurene has shown zero signs of absorbing more magic in the world and in fact Icebrood Saga explicitly states that Primordus and Jormag has only gotten more powerful after Kralkatorrik's death - and not just through their actions with the Frozen and causing destruction, but since before awakening they got power from Kralkatorrik's domain itself.

And the removal of the bounty system doesn't say much because ArenaNet explicitly decided not to do bounties where the Order of Shadows don't show up - this is why there are none in Thunderhead Peaks or Dragonfall; it's also why we have non in Grothmar, Bjora, or Drizzlewood. Despite this, there are creatures with ley-line effects (the 10 cache keepers, the three centurions with Claw of Jormag, the five Asgeir's Legacy champions, etc.). And there are still volatile magic nodes in the three maps.

No one argued that Aurene got all the magic, only that she got a lot of it, and is maintaining the balance.

 

Also

• There are no volatile magic instances in Bjora or Drizzlewood. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Volatile_Magic
• The only volatile magic in Grothmar comes from places where Aurene used her powers. Which does indicate that she has absorbed a lot of the magic energy as none of the previous Elder Dragon's power use did that. None of it is just naturally occurring like previously.
• The ley-line effects in Bjora and Drizzlewood have an IBS story origin for them. They come from the powers of the three corrupted spirits of the wild, which Jormag is funneling their powers into its minions(hence why they are either corrupted spirit champions, or drop spirit essences.) This is also why the champions in Grothmar don't use ley powers.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sir Alric.5078]

12 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

 

It also could mean, that most of the devs still care a lot about the game, but upper management made some bad decisions.

 

 

That's true. I hope that's indeed the case, because that would mean we can still expect something from the devs. 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

6 minutes ago, Sir Alric.5078 said:

 

That's true. I hope that's indeed the case, because that would mean we can still expect something from the devs. 

Can't say I'm that optimistic.