Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]

[Orimidu.9604]

I thought I read somewhere that IBS will have an epilogue episode to answer some remaining questions and lead directly into EoD. Is this the case or did I imagine it?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Orimidu.9604 said:

I thought I read somewhere that IBS will have an epilogue episode to answer some remaining questions and lead directly into EoD. Is this the case or did I imagine it?

That was player speculation based on Anet saying they had content other then festivals planned for between the end of IBS and EoD's release.

[ugrakarma.9416]

4 hours ago, Orimidu.9604 said:

I thought I read somewhere that IBS will have an epilogue episode to answer some remaining questions and lead directly into EoD. Is this the case or did I imagine it?

well unlike othe xpacs we dont have yet the big spoiler cinematic. like in the end of LS2/ end of LS3

[CETheLucid.3964]

5 hours ago, Orimidu.9604 said:

I thought I read somewhere that IBS will have an epilogue episode to answer some remaining questions and lead directly into EoD. Is this the case or did I imagine it?

 

That would be nice.

[Imba.9451]

I pretty much expect something to release before EoD. Be it a tiny update with some preparation towards why we go to cantha or an attack on lions arch.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Maybe, MAYBE, we'll get some kinda of "Side Story" type content to bridge the gap between Irritable Bowel Syndrome and End of Dragons.

[Bast.7253]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That was player speculation based on Anet saying they had content other then festivals planned for between the end of IBS and EoD's release.

No, they had a blog post about it I'm pretty sure. That there would be interim content representing a "changed" Tyria that led up to the release of the expansion.

But my question is, and this isn't clear by the roadmap, is when that interim content is scheduled. They're creating new meta achievements for seasons 2-3, and I'm wondering.. are these updated meta achievements going to be us going through older maps that have been slightly altered and reflect this "changed" Tyria from the effects of the dragons' deaths? 

Or is this just summer filler content giving easy access to legendaries since they're releasing the armory with the actual "lead up" content being in fall with essentially another six month wait for the expansion?

Given they're releasing the armory in July instead of just waiting for the expansion, whether that's a pr thing since it was implied to come with the saga and they don't want it to look bad being released with the expansion, or they're doing it to tide people over because the expansion is longer off than expected I'm not sure. 

But I don't think the elite spec beta period for PoF where we got to explore the new mount system in Crystal Oasis or the new specs lasted very long? I can't remember and don't know how I would find it on the wiki but wasn't it just like.. a week of player testing and then the expansion came some time after that? 

I'm not really sure what the point of beta testing the elite specs is anyway though. I mean we did with PoF and they still had to make so many changes after it hit live that I don't know how beneficial player feedback was during that time. I don't think they did any testing with Heart of Thorns did they?

It makes me wonder what kind of features they have planned for this expansion though. Because with PoF it wasn't just elite specs it was also mounts that they likely needed extensive player testing on. At least the raptor. So despite not having a whole lot of faith in them having the scope for big ticket features, I do have to wonder if they are planning on making Tengu playable after all. It's one thing I can think of as being something they'd definitely want to get as much data as possible on, whether it's animation bugs/glitches/clipping/racials/etc. 

The only other thing might be a housing feature but even that I would think they would have a pretty solid way of testing given that it's generally a limited number of players per instance, limited interaction outside of collision detection, and they already have some infrastructure from guild halls. 

[SexyMofo.8923]

The finale sucked, plain and simple.  Not 1 persons fault; it’s the entire company’s doing. 

[Caitybee.3614]

On 4/30/2021 at 3:20 PM, Zola.6197 said:

Can't agree more. Jormag was the most compelling character and antagonist the game has introduced period, imo. The voice acting was spot on, and I was deeply invested in seeing what their grandmaster plan was, how we were falling right into their carefully laid trap. In the end Jormag's guile, intelligence, and their "persuasion" domain meant truly nothing. All of that set up and development was discarded so they could shoe horn in a terrible ending that was a disservice to how compelling and complicated Jormag seemed to be, and also discarded Primordus - the creature that literally ushered us in to GW2 - as a floating head with 10 whole minutes of screen time. What a joke.

 

It went this way because Jormag was so enraged and set on getting back at Primordus, makes sense Jormag was the one to deal the kill shot, even if it cost both their lives. Think of it from that perspective.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

4 minutes ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

 

It went this way because Jormag was so enraged and set on getting back at Primordus, makes sense Jormag was the one to deal the kill shot, even if it cost both their lives. Think of it from that perspective.

I think that Jormag's perspective was that it wanted to survive above all else, not that it could become so irrational as to commit suicide despite being shown as the cunning and intelligent one of the Elder Dragons.  Suspension of disbelief can only go so far and in my opinion Anet pole-vaulted over that line repeatedly.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:39 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The issue there is that doesn't solve the issue of overflowing magic that Season 3 firmly established through the ley-line events. Aurene HAS to take in a certain level of magic - enough that we're at the level of magic in HoT or maybe during Season 3, which basically means 4 Elder Dragons + a Balthazar's worth of magic - and contain it, even if she's letting it perpetually cycle through her, her bonded, and the world.

And through Glint's Trials, we learn the way to mitigate the pain of having too much magic, is to share it with those she bonded with. I think the difference ebtween "corrupted" and "bonded" is that sharing versus greedy notion - that bonded get shared magic, while corrupted get their magic siphoned (which could explain why corrupted dragon minions are always after magical sources - if they have a perpetual drain on theirs, they'd need to gather more to survive, let alone serve their dragon). But the Commander and Caithe alone, being mortals as they are, won't be able to help Aurene with two (now four) Elder Dragons' worth of magic.

I would have expected to begin seeing Prismatic Crystal Bloom, truth be told, in IBS.

 

And I agree, the large problem is that we're hypothesizing on why things are okay now. Whether it's because Aurene's the One True Elder Dragon Crystal Dragon Jesus and can handle magic without any sharing, or is somehow sharing, or the system is just sharing with the world, or fixing magic, or whathaveyou - I've seen ten different theories on why "everything's okay now". None of them are really solidly founded. Because we don't have an inkling of a clue as to why everything is okay.

 

We just have hypotheses and guesses based on map design choices that are from a developer perspective easily labeled as "because it's no longer Season 3 or 4" (ley-line bounties, volatile magic nodes, unbound magic nodes, glidable ley lines).

Man, this new multiquote system is awkward...

 

I didn't really get the impression from Glint's Trials that the 'sharing' has to happen in any specific way. From memory, there are conversations with Aurene where she mentions that there is a lot that she's managing behind the scenes, and that the entirety of her consciousness isn't contained within her body. I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that part of what she's doing is managing the flow of magic into and out of her so that there's no area that ends up with too much or too little. She's sharing the magic - by spreading it out into the world - but she isn't necessarily doing it by depositing it directly into her followers. It's more that she's trying to make it available to everyone (ie, sharing it) without creating overloads.

 

She also seems to have a fairly strong focus on healing, so it's possible that part of this is that she's actively using her magic to heal the damage that's been done by other Elder Dragons. We might find out at some point, for instance, that she's been using her excess magic to speed the restoration of Orr, the Dragonbrand, and other corrupted areas. She might also be enhancing the Crystal Bloom and others, but in a subtle way rather than a covered-in-prismatic-flowers way.

 

Again, though, the issue is that we're trying to hypothesise about things that we really should know. 

On 5/3/2021 at 7:06 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

A prime example is Joko. People complained ad nauseam that Joko could have gotten an entire season because he was such an important lore character... except he kinda wasn't. Joko back in GW1 was a guy briefly mentioned in lore as someone who utterly failed to take over Elona because he didn't understand how supply lines work, which opened up a weakness for Turai Ossa to exploit. After his defeat he was imprisoned for hundreds of years, with no successful break outs, and he only gets out because we let him out. Even then, we don't let him out because we need his armies, or because hes some master sorcerer who can level cities, or anything like that. We let him out to learn how to ride wurms. Joko is, in fact, so weak and powerless he needs us to do everything for him to rebuild his power(such as reclaiming his staff, and eliminating traitorous generals)

Dude, your "prime example" is one that the writers themselves have acknowledged that they could have done more with, but at the time they realised how much potential they had discounted, they were too locked into their schedule to do more. You're defending the mistakes of ArenaNet's writers more fiercely than the writers themselves are here. 

 

And that covers the other examples. Lazarus, for example? He's a guy that cheated death, has access to knowledge and magic of the elder races, and had the potential to take over an organisation that had been successfully fifth-columning Kryta for centuries and which had contacts with the other 'enemy' factions. The guy definitely had potential to be a major antagonist if handled well. Maybe it's not a story they wanted to tell at the time... but they could have done what they've done so many times before and left his plot thread unresolved rather than having us resurrect and then permanently kill him in a single instance. 

8 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I think that Jormag's perspective was that it wanted to survive above all else, not that it could become so irrational as to commit suicide despite being shown as the cunning and intelligent one of the Elder Dragons.  Suspension of disbelief can only go so far and in my opinion Anet pole-vaulted over that line repeatedly.

Actually... I think I can see where Jormag is coming from there.

 

Jormag is probably the most intellectual, even philosophical, of the Elder Dragons - except possibly Aurene - but I think that, or, rather, that combined with their link to Primordus, is the problem. It's what Jormag has been screaming about for most of the episode:

 

Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!

 

And I think that's part of why Jormag was eventually willing to fight to the death. Imagine that you're trying to do some deep thinking, or even just get a moment's peace, when you're psychically linked to a rage-filled toddler in a permanent state of tantrum who's screaming in the back of you head 24/7 and there's nothing you can do to shut it off. Doesn't matter how smart you are, sooner or later that's going to make you snap. Jormag clearly would have preferred for someone else to do the fighting to reduce risk to themself, but I think that when their efforts to manipulate Aurene into doing it failed, Jormag basically snapped and decided that one way or another it was going to end now.

 

Not the most rational decision they've ever made, but I don't think Jormag was intended to be rational at this point.

 

Problem is that, like the final season of Game of Thrones, it's an ending which could well make sense when you think about it... but the lead-up was far too short to really demonstrate why it came to that ending. The evidence we have for this is literally just a couple of conversations between Aurene and Jormag that most people might well be regarding as setting dressing and bluster rather than important windows into Jormag's mental state. And that's the problem. Jormag's awakening appears to have been intended as the halfway point or even earlier in the IBS as a whole, but instead plot points that might originally have been planned to cover an entire episode (or at least an instance or a few steps leading up to that instance) are being covered in an easily-overlooked conversation instead.

 

I think there's a good chance that if they'd followed the original plan, we could have reached that ending and felt it was justified. Problem is that we had four episodes (and possibly more) of story squeezed into eleven DRMs (counting the final instance as one, since it uses many of the same mechanics) and a handful of conversations.

 

Now, the team seems to be really excited for EoDs, so maybe when we see what they've truncated IBS for, it might actually prove to be worth it. But for now, at least, it's really not a good look. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dude, your "prime example" is one that the writers themselves have acknowledged that they could have done more with,

Yes, I remember them talking about Joko, and their "done more with" was literally them saying they could have carried his story into the early part of the next chapter(aka Jahai), but that was it. Which is pretty much what I said. They could have taken him to Jahai, and had us fight him there, but that would be the last place he could have run off too.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And that covers the other examples. Lazarus, for example? He's a guy that cheated death, has access to knowledge and magic of the elder races, and had the potential to take over an organisation that had been successfully fifth-columning Kryta for centuries and which had contacts with the other 'enemy' factions. The guy definitely had potential to be a major antagonist if handled well. Maybe it's not a story they wanted to tell at the time... but they could have done what they've done so many times before and left his plot thread unresolved rather than having us resurrect and then permanently kill him in a single instance. 

Most of this is wrong

• Lazarus is a guy who tried to cheat death, and got outplayed by one measly White Mantle servant of his, and an Asura.
• Lazarus was of an elder race, but there is nothing indicating he had any sort of special magic/knowledge of any Elder Race(including his own). If he, or any other Mursatt, did, they would have used it back in GW1. Invisibility, and Spectral Agony, were their elder magics, and we had already countered them.
• The White Mantle are so woefully incompetent that, even after 250 years of trying, they haven't been able to inact any sort of meaningful takeover of Kryta. At best, they are bandits outside of Caudecus. They haven't been successful at anything really.
• Even in regards to Caudecus, hes a complete and total narcissist, who would never have handed control over to Lazarus(as we see in-game) which would have split the power of the already moronic organization as it does, crippling them even more.

The whole Lazarus/White Mantle story would have never been as big as you suggest for one simple reason. As the achievement is called, its one giant "conspiracy of dunces"

 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think there's a good chance that if they'd followed the original plan, we could have reached that ending and felt it was justified. Problem is that we had four episodes (and possibly more) of story squeezed into eleven DRMs (counting the final instance as one, since it uses many of the same mechanics) and a handful of conversations.

Based on what we can tell of the original plan(there being four more episodes), how episodes 1-4 went, and the trailer, the original plan seems to have been the same thing we got with Champions, but in new maps instead of DRMs. With

• episodes 5-6 likely covering a "centaur/human peace" sub plot under the "Primordus awakes and starts attacking things" and "Jormag realities and starts freezing things" plots we got with Champions 1/2.
• And episodes 7/8 being the "Dragonstorm" meta map fight map, split into two parts ala Drizzlewood.

 

They very clearly had access to the VAs when making Champions, and with Jormag's whispering powers, they could have easily put dialog of Jormag trying to explain its reasoning/mindset to us in any of the Icebrood focused DRMs. They chose not to, seemingly because they considered that story element already delivered with Jormag Rising and the Bangar conversations. I doubt that would have been different in the original plan. If anything, they would have put more focus into the Centaur sub plot, and the Primrodus/Jormag was plot. And a bigger emphasis on the standard 11th hour reveal(Mordremoth's weakness is his mind!, Kralktorrik is tormented! The magic is going south!)

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Jaken.6801]

Quick question.

Why was our solution "make them go boom", when we actually had a solution at hand.
Aka, recreating the thing Taimi did and put them back to sleep?

Shouldn't that have been a possibility to drive them back?

[Orimidu.9604]

9 minutes ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Quick question.

Why was our solution "make them go boom", when we actually had a solution at hand.
Aka, recreating the thing Taimi did and put them back to sleep?

Shouldn't that have been a possibility to drive them back?

Bangar and Ryland happened. The dragons wanted to stay awake because of the abundance of magic--we disrupted their natural cycle to ward off destruction. Jormag was smart enough to persuade Bangar/Ryland to join them and awaken them. If we just put them to sleep again, the dragon champions would just wake them back up again.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Quick question.

Why was our solution "make them go boom", when we actually had a solution at hand.
Aka, recreating the thing Taimi did and put them back to sleep?

Shouldn't that have been a possibility to drive them back?

We couldn't redo what Taimi did because the machine she used to do that was rendered inoperable back in LWS3, when we stopped Balthazar from using it in Draconis Mons. Also, it used parts of Omadd's machine, which Taimi admitted back in LWS3 she couldn't recreate because she didn't understand how it worked.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/2/2021 at 5:06 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And I think you are too open minded with possibilities, to the point most of the things you suggest don't make much sense from a narrative standpoint.

The wondrous thing about building a fiction is that you can develop reasons for just about any plot to occur, even in an established setting, and without creating retcons. If you believe otherwise, it's just that your ability to create those plots is limited, and nothing more.

On 5/2/2021 at 10:12 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No one argued that Aurene got all the magic, only that she got a lot of it, and is maintaining the balance.

 

Also

• There are no volatile magic instances in Bjora or Drizzlewood. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Volatile_Magic
• The only volatile magic in Grothmar comes from places where Aurene used her powers. Which does indicate that she has absorbed a lot of the magic energy as none of the previous Elder Dragon's power use did that. None of it is just naturally occurring like previously.
• The ley-line effects in Bjora and Drizzlewood have an IBS story origin for them. They come from the powers of the three corrupted spirits of the wild, which Jormag is funneling their powers into its minions(hence why they are either corrupted spirit champions, or drop spirit essences.) This is also why the champions in Grothmar don't use ley powers.

Ignoring the fact that I never said Aurene got all the magic, or said anyone said that, in order for your other points:

 

• Unlisted on the wiki in any form apparently are the karmic volatile magic nodes, which are prevalent in both Bjora and Drizzlewood. While mechanically different, lorewise they're effectively the same. We also see reality rifts in both Bjora and Drizzlewood, an indication of overflow of magic and reality breaking down due to Kralkatorrik's actions, and they're usually not too far from these karmic magic nodes.
• If the presence of volatile magic means an abundance of magic as you seemed to claim by saying "[...] after her ascension we see all the giant ley infused bounties, and volatile/unbound magic vanish from future maps. Aurene's ascension reverted the magic problem of the world back to HoT levels at least.", then how does its presence there mean Aurene absorbed magic? By your argument before, the presence of those nodes should mean that there is an overflow of magic there.
• The Asgeir's Legacy champions have zero stated or visible relevance to the Lost Spirits. Neither do the Elite Frost Legion Wardens, or the five Tribunes in northern Drizzlewood. Admittedly, I was mistaken in listing the three champion Frost Legion centurions during the Claw of Jormag battle - they don't have Unstable Magic abilities. IBS had a total of 26 NPCs with Unstable Magic abilities, and only 10 are tied to the Lost Spirits - these 10, however, are Dominion, and the use of the Essence stuff on Dominion has never been brought up as being lore relevant as far as I've seen, only a mechanic tool to keep the essence skills relevant outside of Bjora (sadly, this was ignored for the DRMs so it became irrelevant all too soon anyways).

 

All of these are visible signs that magic levels are still as high as during PoF and S4.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Man, this new multiquote system is awkward...

Agreed...

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I didn't really get the impression from Glint's Trials that the 'sharing' has to happen in any specific way. From memory, there are conversations with Aurene where she mentions that there is a lot that she's managing behind the scenes, and that the entirety of her consciousness isn't contained within her body. I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that part of what she's doing is managing the flow of magic into and out of her so that there's no area that ends up with too much or too little.

That's plausible. The issue is as you say, it's a hypothesis. This is something that is so critical to the overarching storyline that it should absolutely be explained or at least solidly hinted at. Because at the moment, the only thing we have to go on for sharing magic is:

Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.

Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

[...]

Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.

Which to me at least, is implying bonding with mortals to share it. That the burden can only be handled by sharing the magic with mortals.

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dude, your "prime example" is one that the writers themselves have acknowledged that they could have done more with, but at the time they realised how much potential they had discounted, they were too locked into their schedule to do more. You're defending the mistakes of ArenaNet's writers more fiercely than the writers themselves are here.

And I just want to emphasize this paragraph in particular to @Sajuuk Khar.1509. If even the writers wish and knew they could do more, and dozens of players wanted and can think of enticing plots to continue Joko for a few more episodes, then it isn't simply that people listing things that "don't make much sense from a narrative standpoint."

Because, honestly? They do, or can.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Quick question.

Why was our solution "make them go boom", when we actually had a solution at hand.
Aka, recreating the thing Taimi did and put them back to sleep?

Shouldn't that have been a possibility to drive them back?

The machine was broken and created using one of a kind parts from Omadd's Machine. Not even Dues Ex Taimi knows how to replicate those parts, so the machine is gone forever.

Which makes it the one thing about Season 3's consequences that hasn't been negated outright yet.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The wondrous thing about building a fiction is that you can develop reasons for just about any plot to occur, even in an established setting, and without creating retcons. If you believe otherwise, it's just that your ability to create those plots is limited, and nothing more.

Yes, one could theoretically make up any reason for anything to happen. Anet could make up a storyline where Aurene turns into balloons, and find a way to do so without using retcons. That doesn't make it good to do so however, nor does it mean it makes sense to do so.

 

They could have done 100+ LW releases of Joko doing things, and the player going around stopping it, and introduced any number of mcguffins to justify how he getting getting more power/troops to throw at you. But you have to ask yourself what exactly are you achieving in each release, how is the overall plot moving forward, what themes are being progressed, is this a good use to your time when you could be doing... literally anything else?

 

In essence, this is a totally vapid non argument, purposefully skirting the actual way writing works, to try to argue for the perpetuation of things, long after it makes sense to do so, simply to throw shade at Anet for not doing something no one but a Saturday morning cartoon writer would do.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Unlisted on the wiki in any form apparently are the karmic volatile magic nodes, which are prevalent in both Bjora and Drizzlewood. While mechanically different, lorewise they're effectively the same. We also see reality rifts in both Bjora and Drizzlewood, an indication of overflow of magic and reality breaking down due to Kralkatorrik's actions, and they're usually not too far from these karmic magic nodes.

 

If the presence of volatile magic means an abundance of magic as you seemed to claim by saying "[...] after her ascension we see all the giant ley infused bounties, and volatile/unbound magic vanish from future maps. Aurene's ascension reverted the magic problem of the world back to HoT levels at least.", then how does its presence there mean Aurene absorbed magic? By your argument before, the presence of those nodes should mean that there is an overflow of magic there.

There has been no lore on the origins of purpose behind the karmic nodes existence, and if Anet wanted to make them the same as volatile magic, they would have just made them volatile magic(especially since they used volatile magic in Grothmar). This is nothing more then 100% unsupported headcanon that directly contradicts what the game is actually showing us in regards to these objects.

 

I could just as equally argue that the karma nodes only existing in Bjora and Drizzlewood, while not being in Grothmar, the DRMs, or Dragonstorm, is because they are tied to the Lost Spirit's powers, just like the Fallen/Aberrant/Svanir and Icebrood, essence orbs are, which is why those spirit orbs only appear in those two maps as well.

 

Not to mention for someone who constantly tries to argue everything is "just mechanics"(ironically like you do later on in this very post), I could use the same argument to say its just mechanics that they are there, and not actually lore. You can't flip flop whenever its convenient for you, and expect to be taken seriously.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Asgeir's Legacy champions have zero stated or visible relevance to the Lost Spirits. Neither do the Elite Frost Legion Wardens, or the five Tribunes in northern Drizzlewood. Admittedly, I was mistaken in listing the three champion Frost Legion centurions during the Claw of Jormag battle - they don't have Unstable Magic abilities. IBS had a total of 26 NPCs with Unstable Magic abilities, and only 10 are tied to the Lost Spirits - these 10, however, are Dominion, and the use of the Essence stuff on Dominion has never been brought up as being lore relevant as far as I've seen, only a mechanic tool to keep the essence skills relevant outside of Bjora (sadly, this was ignored for the DRMs so it became irrelevant all too soon anyways).

 

All of these are visible signs that magic levels are still as high as during PoF and S4.

All of the Abberant, Fallen, and Svanir/Icebrood(which those champions are), in those maps have direct connection to the Lost Spirits via the Lost Spirits being controlled by Jormag/Drakkar, and Jormag/Drakkar being the leaders of those forces in those regions. This is why all of these forces drop spirit orbs in these maps. They are getting the spirit's power via their masters.

 

All of this are just signs that the Spirit's power was high in those areas, since that is where they hung out. Which is also why you wouldn't expect to see it in the DRMs, since the Spirits weren't hanging out there for ages.

 

That at least makes more sense then your argument of "its the same thing as another thing its very visibly not the same thing as!"

Edited May 5, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The machine was broken and created using one of a kind parts from Omadd's Machine. Not even Dues Ex Taimi knows how to replicate those parts, so the machine is gone forever.

Which makes it the one thing about Season 3's consequences that hasn't been negated outright yet.

Don't give them any ideas.

[Jaken.6801]

6 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Don't give them any ideas.

I would have prefered the machine, over what we got.

The point is, Taimi wasn't able to recreate Omads machine, fine.
What about someone else? Aurene boosted Asura team, maybe even with Zojia, or something like that?
The point is, Taimi wouldn't have to be the one to deliver it.
Asura are smart, but not the end of everything.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Jaken.6801 said:

I would have prefered the machine, over what we got.

If they had used the machine to put them to sleep, they would have just had to immediately turn around, wake them back up, and then give us the same ending we got, just with a longer meta akin to Dragon Stand or Dragonfall attached to it. And neither previous dragon meta maps offered much in the way of actual story within the meta itself.

 

On the Jormag side of things, from the prologue, to the end of Jormag Rising, Jormag has

• Manipulated a major political leader into causing massive internal strife among one of the major races.
• Used the Fraenir to steal Raven's magic.
• Used Drakkar/the whisper inside of it to weaken the only barely significant military fort near it(Jora's Keep), and weaken the Kodan village nearby as well.
• Tried to corrupt the major Spirits of the Wild.
• Let Bangar use its magic to build an Icebrood army machine for it.
• Quasi related, but Bangar's actions led to the slaughter of the Drizzlewood Coast communities, further weakening any sort of resistance hot spots in area around Jormag.

 

And the player has

• Killed the Fraenir, freeing Raven's magic.
• Killed Drakkar/the Whisper, ending Jormag's ability to easily manipulate people in Bjora's Marches, saving both the Kodan and Jora's Keep in the process, and destroying one of Jormag's oldest/most powerful champions as well.
• Defeated Bagnar's Dominion, killed most of the Steel Warband, and raided/destroyed the Frost Legion's citadel and Icebrood maker.
• Stopped Jormag from corrupting the major Spirits of the Wild.
• Helped Braham pretty much reach the end of the big Asgeir parallel they set up for him(Get a Jotun fire enchanted weapon, gain the assistance of the spirits of the wild, help kill one of Jormag's major champions)
• Exposed Jormag for the BSer it is, ending its ability to easily manipulate people in general.

 

If the whole "Jormag and Primrodus are twins, and the only way to defeat them is to get them to destroy each other" thing didn't exist, you could have told me that episode 5 of IBS would have started with Taimi contacting us, telling us she has tracked Jormag to wherever it fled to after Jormag Rising, the Commander deciding its time to end this, us gathering our allies thus far(Pact, Untied Legions, Kodan from Bjora, maybe some Tengu survivors from Drizzlewood, Crystal Bloom), and taking the fight to Jormag. With episode 5 ending with Braham getting his bow back mid way through the big "Dragon Ice" meta fight map, and episode 6 expanding on the episode 5 map/Jormag fight meta, and ending with Braham using the bow to KABRAHAM Jormag to death, and I would have totally believed it because Jormag's story was already at its end point as is.

 

Which is pretty much what we got, but replace the meta with the Icebrood DRMs, and Braham using the bow with using Primordus's power.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Jaken.6801]

I mean... They could have tried to put them to sleep, while shorting out their "champs" at the same time, preventing a fast recovery.

Then again, yeah... they should have just gone with Jormag, leaving Primordus as a threat, that pushes us towards Cantha in seek of whatever.
Help, Mother, Bubbles, etc.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 minute ago, Jaken.6801 said:

I mean... They could have tried to put them to sleep, while shorting out their "champs" at the same time, preventing a fast recovery.

Then again, yeah... they should have just gone with Jormag, leaving Primordus as a threat, that pushes us towards Cantha in seek of whatever.
Help, Mother, Bubbles, etc.

I mean, they pretty much already did that in LWS3, so I don't see them doing it again. Especially since, as pointed out, there really wasn't much left to do with Jormag as is.

 

The problem I see with Primordus is that it has never made any effort to use any sort of tactical attacks, or even corrupt anything. It just shows up wherever it can, and destroys things.

 

Imagine the Zhaitain story from vanilla, but remove everything like Kellach trying to attack the queen, Zhaitan's forces attacking the faction bases, all the stuff with the eyes of Zhaitan, and the corrupted priests, in Orr, the whole spying on Lion's Arch in prep for attacking Claw Island, etc. etc. Or Mordremoth's story, but remove all the Scarlet stuff, and the Sylvari going crazy/people doubting them. Or Jormag's story, but remove all the Bangar/Ryland/whisper stuff. You aren't really left with much to work with there. Any story involving Primordus would largely just involve "destroyers are coming up all over the place and attacking things"  which is... pretty much what we got in the destroyer focused DRMs.

 

Its kinda the same problem Kralkatorrik had, since he and his minions are almost equally as mindless. In vanilla and PoF Kralk and his minions are just sort of around attacking things around the dragonbrand. Even in LWS4, Kralk doesn't really DO much besides just attack things around his perch on the western mountain range of Elona. But the one thing Kralk had, that Primordus doesn't, is Glint, and Aurene, intelligent children, and grandchildren, that were the actual focus of the Kralk storyline since Kralk itself wasn't much of a talker.

 

And I'm almost certain that Anet has considered the Dwarven stuff, which is what people wanted out of a Primordus storyline, pretty much done since Thunderhead Peaks came out. We have covered all of the dwarven lands from Iron Horse Mines in the north, to Droknar and Port Sledge in the south. Met multiple living dwarves(Ogden and Rhoban), found the legacy the dwarves left behind for us(the dragonsblood forge), and the dwarves of today are immortal beings of stone that have no need for things like food, or sleep(that we know of). There are no current dwarven cities, no dwarven culture, no need to make armor. All they have done for the last 200+ years is smash dragon minions endlessly. And we got them doing that in the Thunderhead Peaks DRM.

[Imba.9451]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I mean, they pretty much already did that in LWS3, so I don't see them doing it again. Especially since, as pointed out, there really wasn't much left to do with Jormag as is.

 

The problem I see with Primordus is that it has never made any effort to use any sort of tactical attacks, or even corrupt anything. It just shows up wherever it can, and destroys things.

Thats because the writers chose to depic Primordus that way. Also, He did attack settlements during the DRM's. Even the characters talk about that. This is a setup with no payoff.

 

Quote

 

Imagine the Zhaitain story from vanilla, but remove everything like Kellach trying to attack the queen, Zhaitan's forces attacking the faction bases, all the stuff with the eyes of Zhaitan, and the corrupted priests, in Orr, the whole spying on Lion's Arch in prep for attacking Claw Island, etc. etc. Or Mordremoth's story, but remove all the Scarlet stuff, and the Sylvari going crazy/people doubting them. Or Jormag's story, but remove all the Bangar/Ryland/whisper stuff. You aren't really left with much to work with there. Any story involving Primordus would largely just involve "destroyers are coming up all over the place and attacking things"  which is... pretty much what we got in the destroyer focused DRMs.

 

Its kinda the same problem Kralkatorrik had, since he and his minions are almost equally as mindless. In vanilla and PoF Kralk and his minions are just sort of around attacking things around the dragonbrand. Even in LWS4, Kralk doesn't really DO much besides just attack things around his perch on the western mountain range of Elona. But the one thing Kralk had, that Primordus doesn't, is Glint, and Aurene, intelligent children, and grandchildren, that were the actual focus of the Kralk storyline since Kralk itself wasn't much of a talker.

 

And still, Kralks story got more of everything: More characters, more story, even more insight on the dragon itself (even if it was executed rather poor imho. Simply throwing in "btw magic made big dragon mad" is just cheap.)

Quote

And I'm almost certain that Anet has considered the Dwarven stuff, which is what people wanted out of a Primordus storyline, pretty much done since Thunderhead Peaks came out. We have covered all of the dwarven lands from Iron Horse Mines in the north, to Droknar and Port Sledge in the south. Met multiple living dwarves(Ogden and Rhoban), found the legacy the dwarves left behind for us(the dragonsblood forge), and the dwarves of today are immortal beings of stone that have no need for things like food, or sleep(that we know of). There are no current dwarven cities, no dwarven culture, no need to make armor. All they have done for the last 200+ years is smash dragon minions endlessly. And we got them doing that in the Thunderhead Peaks DRM.

Yeah, the dwarves got thrown in and handwaved away. One would think more people would comment on dwarves resurfacing again, after 400 years. But nope, they are just there. It's like Anet screaming "MEMBER GW1?"

There is a huge difference between giving the player the information he needs and doing so in a captivating and consistent way.

Magic? Has no rules at all. Can be everything and nothing.

Ley Lines? The newest mcguffin.

 

Imagine Lord of the Rings written this way:

There was an evil guy. He made Rings. His ring was more powerful and he could control wearers of the other rings. But one tiny dude found the ring after he lost it in a war. Ring ended up in the hand of another tiny dude who went to bad guys homeland and threw it in a volcano. Also he had companions who did fight a war against bad guys armies.

 

Execution is important. Probably even more so than the idea itself, because without captivating the audience, even the best idea gets overlooked quickly. Some of them resurface later and get called "ahead of their time", but I guarantee you, IBS will not be one of those instances.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Imba.9451