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Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]


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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

All of the Abberant, Fallen, and Svanir/Icebrood(which those champions are), in those maps have direct connection to the Lost Spirits via the Lost Spirits being controlled by Jormag/Drakkar, and Jormag/Drakkar being the leaders of those forces in those regions. This is why all of these forces drop spirit orbs in these maps. They are getting the spirit's power via their masters.

You don't seem to get it.

The mobs that have Unstable Magic Abilities which I listed do not drop essence orbs, and they are not given essence shaders. There are zero ties to the essences with them.

I am specifically referring to these guys:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Champion_Icebrood_Goliath

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Champion_Icebrood_Kodan

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Champion_Icebrood_Voice

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Champion_Svanir_Tyrant

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Dominion_tribune_(Iron)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Dominion_tribune_(Blood)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Dominion_tribune_(Flame)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Dominion_tribune_(Frost)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Dominion_tribune_(Ash)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rescue_POWs_by_killing_Dominion_gatekeepers

 

Four of them aren't even icebrood, nor are they Aberrant, Fallen, nor Svanir. And most importantly, they do not have the essence buffs on them.

 

EDIT:

14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

There has been no lore on the origins of purpose behind the karmic nodes existence, and if Anet wanted to make them the same as volatile magic, they would have just made them volatile magic(especially since they used volatile magic in Grothmar). This is nothing more then 100% unsupported headcanon that directly contradicts what the game is actually showing us in regards to these objects.

They come out of reality rifts in those two maps, just as volatile magic does in other maps. Second go replaces them with the red magic nodes which don't reward anything, just as we see in Dragonfall around Kralkatorrik and from all S4 reality rifts if you redo them before daily reset.

It may not be stated, but the visual and mechanical similarities are very apparent.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

Thats because the writers chose to depic Primordus that way. Also, He did attack settlements during the DRM's. Even the characters talk about that. This is a setup with no payoff.

 

 

And still, Kralks story got more of everything: More characters, more story, even more insight on the dragon itself (even if it was executed rather poor imho. Simply throwing in "btw magic made big dragon mad" is just cheap.)

Yeah, the dwarves got thrown in and handwaved away. One would think more people would comment on dwarves resurfacing again, after 400 years. But nope, they are just there. It's like Anet screaming "MEMBER GW1?"

There is a huge difference between giving the player the information he needs and doing so in a captivating and consistent way.

Magic? Has no rules at all. Can be everything and nothing.

Ley Lines? The newest mcguffin.

 

Imagine Lord of the Rings written this way:

There was an evil guy. He made Rings. His ring was more powerful and he could control wearers of the other rings. But one tiny dude found the ring after he lost it in a war. Ring ended up in the hand of another tiny dude who went to bad guys homeland and threw it in a volcano. Also he had companions who did fight a war against bad guys armies.

 

Execution is important. Probably even more so than the idea itself, because without captivating the audience, even the best idea gets overlooked quickly. Some of them resurface later and get called "ahead of their time", but I guarantee you, IBS will not be one of those instances.

 

So much of this.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 For what it's worth, there is also the ley-crazed ooze in the Ooze Pit. 

 

What this discussion shows to me is that it's possible that Aurene has stabilized magic levels and the cycle within the world, but that ArenaNet has certainly not been clear one way or the other. The world could be teetering on the edge, halted at the point Kralkatorrik's rampage and the prior two deaths had brought it to. Or it could be back to pre-Zhaitan stability. If it's somehow the latter, then they have not described how that works in conjunction with all the "the world will collapse" stuff from before.

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22 minutes ago, Lost in Hyrule.2963 said:

What this discussion shows to me is that it's possible that Aurene has stabilized magic levels and the cycle within the world, but that ArenaNet has certainly not been clear one way or the other.

Did they ever discuss what exactly Aurene did at the end of LWS4? 

 

Aurene: I can't explain what's about to happen, Champion...

Aurene: But I want to share it with you.

 

What exactly does that mean? Is she sharing magic with the world by filtering it through her? Is she holding back the magic just enough? What exactly is happening here that is so different from previous elder dragons besides the fact that they would normally consume as much magic as possible?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Did they ever discuss what exactly Aurene did at the end of LWS4? 

 

Aurene: I can't explain what's about to happen, Champion...

Aurene: But I want to share it with you.

 

What exactly does that mean? Is she sharing magic with the world by filtering it through her? Is she holding back the magic just enough? What exactly is happening here that is so different from previous elder dragons besides the fact that they would normally consume as much magic as possible?

 

lol That was the moment she became an elder dragon.

She was saying, "I don't know what's about to happen" in reference to her essentially absorbing Kralk's place in the all and taking control of his domain. (The orb at the end of the instance that we hit with the spear.)

She's wanting to share the experience of her ascension, that moment in time, with the commander because they've been on the journey together up until that moment.

And the difference is that she's the first elder dragon (that we know of) to ascend in the way that she did. It seems like it was implied that she was the first of her kind for many reasons. 1.) That she was raised from an egg and essentially became an elder dragon through seemingly unprecedented means. I.e. Eating a lich, the whole prophecy, etc. 2.) She's so far been able to filter out magic and contain conflicting magics easier than the other elder dragons that were seemingly only "healthy" when they only contained THEIRS. Even then, they still were driven to madness for some unknown reason.

 

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5 hours ago, Lost in Hyrule.2963 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 For what it's worth, there is also the ley-crazed ooze in the Ooze Pit. 

 

What this discussion shows to me is that it's possible that Aurene has stabilized magic levels and the cycle within the world, but that ArenaNet has certainly not been clear one way or the other.

Exactly. It's "possible", but it's never actually explained that it was done. It hasn't even been properly hinted that it was done.

In fact, the only reason why people suspect it was done, is because the main characters aren't actively worried about it anymore. But then Champions has this continuous undertone worry about maintaining balance still (while simultaneously showing Jormag believing it's nothing to worry about), and this poorly written ominous hint of something about to happen in just two sentences.

5 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Did they ever discuss what exactly Aurene did at the end of LWS4? 

 

Aurene: I can't explain what's about to happen, Champion...

Aurene: But I want to share it with you.

 

What exactly does that mean? Is she sharing magic with the world by filtering it through her? Is she holding back the magic just enough? What exactly is happening here that is so different from previous elder dragons besides the fact that they would normally consume as much magic as possible?

No, it's never explained what she meant by that, in-game or out. But when she shows up in Episode 2, she furthers this notion that by becoming an Elder Dragon she has learned so much more simply by being connected to magic and The All. The "I can't explain" was in reference to all that knowledge she gained, which is "beyond mortal comprehension" as also hinted in the western Bjora Marches book Quiet, where Jormag shares that knowledge with a Priory norn and, well, said norn makes instant regret.

Aurene: Learning. Mending. Listening. Elder Dragons are burdened with more than we could possibly have known.
Aurene: You see me here, you speak with me, but I'm also in the Mists, repairing the damage Kralkatorrik caused.
Aurene: I am...a part of everything. All the magic of this world, like blood in my veins. I feel it all the time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep#Eye_of_the_North

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Thats because the writers chose to depic Primordus that way. Also, He did attack settlements during the DRM's. Even the characters talk about that. This is a setup with no payoff.

He was always portrayed that way. So they were just following the lore. And I know he attacked settlements in the DRMs, I even stated as such. His attacks on settlements in the DRMs however were not part of some giant, thought out, plan like the attacks on Lions Arch, and the faction bases, by Zhaitan were. As Marjory, Taimi, and Jhavi point out, Primrodus is just out there to destroy anything it can, even if what it attacks doesn't make much sense tactically.

9 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

And still, Kralks story got more of everything: More characters, more story, even more insight on the dragon itself (even if it was executed rather poor imho. Simply throwing in "btw magic made big dragon mad" is just cheap.)

Did it really through? Throughout vanilla, PoF, and LWS4, what did we actually do/learn about Kralk itself until the very end? Nothing really. 

  • Vanilla was just "his minions are marching down the brand to meet up with him, and the Charr are trying to kill as many as possible".
  • PoF was pretty much the same. We got more development on Glint, Vlast, and Aurene, then Kralk, who was just there tearing things up.
  • Kralk really wasn't a figure for LWS4EP1-3, besides attacking Amnoon, and causing some meteors to rain down in Istan.
  • LWS4EP4-5 were about Aurene being afraid of fighting Kralk, and needing support to stand up to him.
  • LWS4EP6 is when we actually learned anything about Kralk.... right in the last like 10 minutes of the patch where we find out he was tormented, and then we kill him.

Kralk itself got very little development through vanilla into even its own arc. Most of it was focused on his children.

The actual Kralk story was LWS4EP4-6. Primordus got story in LWS3EP2 and 5, as well as the Champions releases. And vanilla content like all the dragons did.

9 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Yeah, the dwarves got thrown in and handwaved away. One would think more people would comment on dwarves resurfacing again, after 400 years. But nope, they are just there. It's like Anet screaming "MEMBER GW1?"

There is a huge difference between giving the player the information he needs and doing so in a captivating and consistent way.

Magic? Has no rules at all. Can be everything and nothing.

Ley Lines? The newest mcguffin.

Except this isn't how any of this happened.

  • The dwarves were only underground for 250 years, not 400.
  • Even being down there that long everyone was aware that the dwarves were still alive down there fighting destroyers
  • Its not really surprising to anyone that when destroyers started rushing to the surface, so the the dwarves.
  • Ley Lines aren't new by any measure. Scarlet went after then in LWS1, they played a big part in LWS2 and HoT, in LWS3 Anet even built a ley line tunnel connecting Draconis Mons to Dragon Stand to show how Primordus was eating on Modremoth's power, ley energy build up was a huge issue in PoF and LWS4. Its been a constant theme in the game for years that dragons go after ley lines.

 

See, the problem is that you are confusing your own desire with the dwarves being a "big thing" with the character's desire for the dwarves to be a "big thing" when, to pretty much anyone actually on Tyria, the dwarves aren't a big thing. Everyone acts exactly like they should have in regards to the dwarves resurfacing "huh, makes sense"

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

He was always portrayed that way. So they were just following the lore. And I know he attacked settlements in the DRMs, I even stated as such. His attacks on settlements in the DRMs however were not part of some giant, thought out, plan like the attacks on Lions Arch, and the faction bases, by Zhaitan were. As Marjory, Taimi, and Jhavi point out, Primrodus is just out there to destroy anything it can, even if what it attacks doesn't make much sense tactically.

Actually, Jhavi says the opposite:

Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.
Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.
Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.
 
 
Luring defenses away from your prime target does suggest intelligence. If he were midnless destruction, he would just expand his influence equally from wherever he was located. That would have been logical for something that is just mindlessly after destruction. But he did not.
Again: Setup withoup payoff.
 
5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Did it really through? Throughout vanilla, PoF, and LWS4, what did we actually do/learn about Kralk itself until the very end? Nothing really. 

  • Vanilla was just "his minions are marching down the brand to meet up with him, and the Charr are trying to kill as many as possible".
  • PoF was pretty much the same. We got more development on Glint, Vlast, and Aurene, then Kralk, who was just there tearing things up.
  • Kralk really wasn't a figure for LWS4EP1-3, besides attacking Amnoon, and causing some meteors to rain down in Istan.
  • LWS4EP4-5 were about Aurene being afraid of fighting Kralk, and needing support to stand up to him.
  • LWS4EP6 is when we actually learned anything about Kralk.... right in the last like 10 minutes of the patch where we find out he was tormented, and then we kill him.

Kralk itself got very little development through vanilla into even its own arc. Most of it was focused on his children.

The actual Kralk story was LWS4EP4-6. Primordus got story in LWS3EP2 and 5, as well as the Champions releases. And vanilla content like all the dragons did.

 

Kralk got more backstory through Glinth, Vast and, to an extend, Aurene. He got expanded upon. One could argue, that he was exactly the same as Primordus: Mindless destruction wherever he pleased. But still, we got character arcs around that. Anet cared to make something of it.

Primordus was wasted as a character, as an antagonist and as a threat. Anet could have done alot more, alot better with him. But Anet didn't. As much as I want the dragons to be dead already, because the dragon story stretches on way to long imho, this is certainly not a good way to end it.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except this isn't how any of this happened.

  • The dwarves were only underground for 250 years, not 400.
  • Even being down there that long everyone was aware that the dwarves were still alive down there fighting destroyers
  • Its not really surprising to anyone that when destroyers started rushing to the surface, so the the dwarves.
  • Ley Lines aren't new by any measure. Scarlet went after then in LWS1, they played a big part in LWS2 and HoT, in LWS3 Anet even built a ley line tunnel connecting Draconis Mons to Dragon Stand to show how Primordus was eating on Modremoth's power, ley energy build up was a huge issue in PoF and LWS4. Its been a constant theme in the game for years that dragons go after ley lines.

And yet, never ever came up with the idea to use ley lines this way? You know why? because Anet needed a way to quickly wrap up this living story. They knew it is a cheap cop-out to give the protagonists a magic strick they can throw so dragon will come and try to catch it. And the worst thing: Jormag fell for it. Despite knowing that she will not win against Primordus, she fell for it like a kitten idiot. Again: Setup without payoff.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

See, the problem is that you are confusing your own desire with the dwarves being a "big thing" with the character's desire for the dwarves to be a "big thing" when, to pretty much anyone actually on Tyria, the dwarves aren't a big thing. Everyone acts exactly like they should have in regards to the dwarves resurfacing "huh, makes sense"

I honestly do not care about dwarves in the way some other people do. I would have liked a depths of Tyria expansion, yes, but they are far from my favorite race.

However, when lving beings made out stone resurface after hundreds of years, and noone bats an eye, thats just throwing off every sense of believability this world has. They never came to fight destroyer above the ground, so why now? It IS something special, and the Durmands would have freaked out over this.

Yes, it does make sense, but so does the police arriving at a crime scene. Yet still people stand by to look and are curious. Imagine the police would be stone dwarves who resurface after 250 years after a crime that has been commited by an all-powerful dragon and his minions. Think people would just shrug and say: "Eh, jus dwarven things, nothing to see here."?

No. Thats not what people would do at all.

 

The problem is you confusing "Yeah, we as developers could do this" with "Yeah, we as developer should do this". Considering how badly explained magic in GW2 is, Arenanet could come up with a giant space unicorn that pooped out the All in the next expansion.  And it's rainbow-farrts still hanging in the air is it's magic.

It's a fictional setting. You can do everything with it. But there are many rules when it comes to writing. If you do whatever you kittening please, you will quickly lose your audience, because any story needs cohesion and coherence. And while GW2 never excelled in storytelling in the first hand, they jumped the shark with jow poorly written the characters, and how poorly paced the story was.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Actually, Jhavi says the opposite:

Except she literally says what I just said, and you even quoted it. "But that doesn't make any sense" " Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos." did you even read what you quoted from Jhavi?

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Luring defenses away from your prime target does suggest intelligence.

Also incorrect. Many animals, like wolves, use basic lure attacks, but you wouldn't consider them truly intelligent.

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Primordus was wasted as a character, as an antagonist and as a threat. Anet could have done alot more, alot better with him. But Anet didn't. As much as I want the dragons to be dead already, because the dragon story stretches on way to long imho, this is certainly not a good way to end it.

Explain how then. You can keep saying they could do better, but unless you actually give any sort of explanation on how to do so its just vapid complaining.

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

And yet, never ever came up with the idea to use ley lines this way?

No one knew Ley lines existed until LWS2, and we didn't have an Elder Dragon to manipulate them for us until IBS. So yes, no one used something they didn't know existed until just a few years ago in a way they literally couldn't have until just now. That's common sense.

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

And the worst thing: Jormag fell for it. Despite knowing that she will not win against Primordus, she fell for it like a kitten idiot

Except

A. Jormag isn't a she, Jormag is an it, because they lack gender.

B. Jormag did believe it could win against Primordus. That was the whole point of getting a champion(Ryland) building an army(Frost Legion), freezing things over in the DRMs, corrupting the Spirits of Wild, zapping on ley lines in the Dragonstorm fight, etc.

 

Jormag trying to get an edge over Primordus was literally the whole reason it did everything it did in IBS!

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

However, when lving beings made out stone resurface after hundreds of years, and noone bats an eye, thats just throwing off every sense of believability this world has. They never came to fight destroyer above the ground, so why now? It IS something special, and the Durmands would have freaked out over this.

They explain this in the Thunderhead Peaks DRM. Myrun Skialkin questions why there are so many dwarves on the surface, and Locke Stonehealer responds by saying the destroyers started rising after then they could keep them down.

 

And the Durmand Priory already has not only Ogden, but also Rhoban. They are the ones who should be the least freaking out about it, because they are the ones who interact with stone dwarves on a regular basis.

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

It's a fictional setting. You can do everything with it. But there are many rules when it comes to writing. If you do whatever you kittening please, you will quickly lose your audience, because any story needs cohesion and coherence.

And everything about this was set up before hand. You just don't seem to have played the game, or tried to pay attention to what was said in ti.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No, you don't seem to get it, or even played these maps, because those champions in Asgeir's Legacy are effected by the spirit energy masteries(I know because I use it against them all the time), and the Tribues are part of the Dominion/Frost Legion, who are, again, getting power from Jormag, who is getting power from the Spirits of the Wild.

 

17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

EDIT:

They come out of reality rifts in those two maps, just as volatile magic does in other maps. Second go replaces them with the red magic nodes which don't reward anything, just as we see in Dragonfall around Kralkatorrik and from all S4 reality rifts if you redo them before daily reset.

It may not be stated, but the visual and mechanical similarities are very apparent.

Also incorrect. Some of them come out of the reality rifts, many are just floating around rift or not.

 

Even if all of them did come from the rifts, the rifts exist due to Kralk eating the Mists, and doing a lot of damage there, not simply because of an excess of magic. They are two different things, with two different origins.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except she literally says what I just said, and you even quoted it. "But that doesn't make any sense" " Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos." did you even read what you quoted from Jhavi?

Yes, seemingly I was the only one. You missed the context in Jhavis lines.

She does not understand why Primordus would consider the settlement with the more defenseless target more valuable, why defenses were drawn towards lions arch. But she even admits afterwards, that maybe Primordus likes to attack defensless people more. That it thrives in the resulting chaos. I really do not understand how this should be interpreted in any other way.

And considering this motivation, it does suggest some sort of intelligence from primordus.

Quote

Also incorrect. Many animals, like wolves, use basic lure attacks, but you wouldn't consider them truly intelligent.

Comparing wolves towards an elder dragon simply because it fits your impression of the elder dragon more is pretty far stretched. Also, wolves hunt in packs, primordus is a single entity, with the destryed seemingly being a hive mind. So your comparison lacks behind.

Quote

Explain how then. You can keep saying they could do better, but unless you actually give any sort of explanation on how to do so its just vapid complaining.

First: When I point out that Primordus had no arc of it's own, that is a simple fact. I do not need to come up with an arc, simply for you to attack it immediatly in order to make that claim valid.

Second: Primordus was set up since GW1. He had two races connected to him, dwarves and Asura. Yet everything surrounding him gets thrown away with a few lines of dialogue. Creating Character motivation aside from Taimi screaming at Braham during a single DRM would not only have been nice, it was greatly needed to create immersion and believability in the world that we are playing in.

Third: Considering I laid out how Primordus could have been an inteligent being, it would have been so incredibly easy to create a storyline in the depths of Tyria, meeting dwarves and leftover asura, talking to them, interacting with them and helping them. Heck, you could even have thrown in the deepstone voice for some nuance. But to be fair, ANYTHING would have been more than the nothing we got.

Quote

No one knew Ley lines existed until LWS2, and we didn't have an Elder Dragon to manipulate them for us until IBS. So yes, no one used something they didn't know existed until just a few years ago in a way they literally couldn't have until just now. That's common sense.

It's also common sense that alot of time has passed between LS2 and now.

Quote

Except

A. Jormag isn't a she, Jormag is an it, because they lack gender.

This neither does improve your argument or makes mine invalid, hence no need to dedicate an "A." to it. Keep it based please.

Quote

B. Jormag did believe it could win against Primordus. That was the whole point of getting a champion(Ryland) building an army(Frost Legion), freezing things over in the DRMs, corrupting the Spirits of Wild, zapping on ley lines in the Dragonstorm fight, etc.

Very sudden turn for Jormag then. Even if we believe that Jormag think it could win (wich it never outright said, quite the opposite), it was so incredibly sudden, with almost no reason given to WHY this conception changed.

Quote

They explain this in the Thunderhead Peaks DRM. Myrun Skialkin questions why there are so many dwarves on the surface, and Locke Stonehealer responds by saying the destroyers started rising after then they could keep them down.

That is one NPC. That doesn`t quite match the effect this should have on the main cast. Or the world as a whole.

Quote

And the Durmand Priory already has not only Ogden, but also Rhoban. They are the ones who should be the least freaking out about it, because they are the ones who interact with stone dwarves on a regular basis.

There is a difference between the two you described, and the dwarves emerging in massive numbers. That should be of the highest interest to the priory.

Quote

And everything about this was set up before hand. You just don't seem to have played the game, or tried to pay attention to what was said in ti.

Some things are setup because you interpreted them as such, with plenty of people giving dozen of reasons to you why they view it differently. Some of them are rushed and purely executed.

Yet, you wave all of that away, basically saying: "You are all wrong, play the game, pay more attention".

That is just plain bad manners.

Edited by Imba.9451
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

That is one NPC. That doesn`t quite match the effect this should have on the main cast. Or the world as a whole.

 

There is a difference between the two you described, and the dwarves emerging in massive numbers. That should be of the highest interest to the priory.

No, what should be the highest interest to the Priory is fulfilling their Pact obligations by helping stop the Destroyers and Icebrood from destroying the world. The dwarves they already knew existed, coming up to fight the enemy they already knew they were fighting, would be pretty low on their priority list. Even lower for anyone else who isn't an obsessive historian(aka the entire rest of the cast/world)

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:
  • Very sudden turn for Jormag then. Even if we believe that Jormag think it could win (wich it never outright said, quite the opposite), it was so incredibly sudden, with almost no reason given to WHY this conception changed.

Except it isn't a sudden turn. We had 18 months of story from Bound by Blood to Champions P4, showing us why Jormag thinks it would be in a position to win. Jormag itself even states during the dragonstorm battle "I've stayed my hand before, brother. No more. Today I obliterate the balance that chains us together." Showing that it does have the confidence that it can win this fight.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:
  • It's also common sense that alot of time has passed between LS2 and now.

That isn't an argument. A lot more time has passed since humanity first went into space, doesn't mean we can make warp drives and go to other stars. That isn't how science works.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:
  • First: When I point out that Primordus had no arc of it's own, that is a simple fact. I do not need to come up with an arc, simply for you to attack it immediatly in order to make that claim valid.
  • Second: Primordus was set up since GW1. He had two races connected to him, dwarves and Asura. Yet everything surrounding him gets thrown away with a few lines of dialogue. Creating Character motivation aside from Taimi screaming at Braham during a single DRM would not only have been nice, it was greatly needed to create immersion and believability in the world that we are playing in.
  • Third: Considering I laid out how Primordus could have been an inteligent being, it would have been so incredibly easy to create a storyline in the depths of Tyria, meeting dwarves and leftover asura, talking to them, interacting with them and helping them. Heck, you could even have thrown in the deepstone voice for some nuance. But to be fair, ANYTHING would have been more than the nothing we got.

Well no, that isn't how any of this works.

First off, the claim Primordus didn't have a story is wrong, it got story in vanilla, LWS3 and IBS.

Secondly, yes, you do have to come up with an arc in order to prove your point on how it could be done better. That is literally how the idea of evidence to support one's arguments works.

Thirdly, nothing surrounding Primordus got thrown away.

-The Asura got their "go underground, find a lost city, learn how to defeat Primordus, stop the Inquest from stealing lost secrets" plot back in HoT with Rata Novus, and the Draconis Mons release of LWS3(which was a Primordus heavy release to boot.)

-The Dwarves equally got Destroyer story time in LWS3 with Ember Bay. Ember Bay itnroduced us to Rhoban who appeared in PoF leading a Priory Expedition to Dwarven ruins(filled with destroyers), and thenwe get the Dwarven/Destoryer focused DRM in IBS. That's three separate releases involving the Dwarves, and destroyers, and two of them were underground to boot.

 

So the things you said you wanted for an interesting Primordus storyline were already done, in Primordus related story sections throughout the game's lifespan. Including Asuran character motivation beyond Taimi yelling at Braham in the Metrica DRM.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Comparing wolves towards an elder dragon simply because it fits your impression of the elder dragon more is pretty far stretched. Also, wolves hunt in packs, primordus is a single entity, with the destryed seemingly being a hive mind. So your comparison lacks behind.

All dragon minions are connected to their Elder Dragons, and function as something of a hive mind. Being a hive mind doesn't change them attacking using pack tactics, nor does it change that still being nothing more then animistic intelligence.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

She does not understand why Primordus would consider the settlement with the more defenseless target more valuable,

OFC she doesn't. Because attacking the Ascalonian Settlement ISN'T valuable. It serves no real strategic, or militaristic, importance. Attacking it is simply causing destruction for destruction sake compared to attacking something like Lions Arch, a major city thats also the hub of commerce in Tyira. You literally just pointed out that Jhavi admits that Primrodus just attacks thing to cause destruction, and not because they are sound military targets, as I had just got done saying, but then turn around and say you don't know how anyone could interpret it the way I did. At this point you are just tripping over yourself.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:
  • Yet, you wave all of that away, basically saying: "You are all wrong, play the game, pay more attention".
  • That is just plain bad manners.

What is bad manner is constantly trying to dodge the argument, by movin goalposts and throwing out personal attacks like "you have bad manners"

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No, what should be the highest interest to the Priory is fulfilling their Pact obligations by helping stop the Destroyers and Icebrood from destroying the world. The dwarves they already knew existed, coming up to fight the enemy they already knew they were fighting, would be pretty low on their priority list. Even lower for anyone else who isn't an obsessive historian(aka the entire rest of the cast/world)

We are moving in circles here. I say, they should care, you say they don't. I think you didn't get the essence of the priory right, some goes vice versa. Needless debate, since both of us seem to think that the other persons arguments are garbage.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except it isn't a sudden turn. We had 18 months of story from Bound by Blood to Champions P4, showing us why Jormag things it would be in a position to win. Jormag itself even states during the dragonstorm battle "I've stayed my hand before, brother. No more. Today I obliterate the balance that chains us together." Showing that it does have the confidence that it can win this fight.

The quote you gave was literally from the final mission, making it hardly evidence against my claim that it was sudden. So let's disregard that before all else.

Second, 18 months of real time do not equal in-universe time.

Third, Jormags change of direction only occured during Champions. Wich, as we all know, is rushed and only served to prepare for this living stories end. So yes, Jormags turn from Champions and onward was, indeed, sudden. Just because the story sections were released at a very slow paste doesn't make it less sudden, especially when you play it in one session.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That isn't an argument. A lot more time has passed since humanity first went into space, doesn't mean we can make warp drives and go to other stars. That isn't how science works.

First: Real live space programs have nothing to do with a fantasy games setting.

Second: "Science" in GW2 is basically what the game needs it to be. Problem arises, Taimi talks Technobabble and viola, solution. So actually, Science in GW2 is as much science as nanomachine in the Metal gear franchise are: Both are devices that can be used by the writers at will to tackle problems in whatever way they please, thus little more than magic with another terminology.

Third: The sudden realisation that Dragons are attracted to Ley Lines comes at a rather convienient time. Luring Dragons by Ley Line usage has never been established before and thus is literally connected to point number 2, that science in GW2 is a convenient plot device that doesn't do much more than prpgressing the plot when needed.

 

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well no, that isn't how any of this works.

Actually yes, it is. A claim does not become false simply because you provided no evidence. Providing no evidence means that that is no evidence and maybe can be disregarded until evidence is provided. THAT is how science works.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

First off, the claim Primordus didn't have a story is wrong, it got story in vanilla, LWS3 and IBS.

In Vanilla? Point out to me where Primordus had a strong story there. Just because we could 1-spam destryers to death doesn't mean that Primordus had a strong story there, quite the contrary.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Secondly, yes, you do have to come up with an arc in order to prove your point on how it could be done better. That is literally how the idea of evidence to support one's arguments works.

I made my point regarding this clear above. What does matter is the intelectual integrity to accept the opponents argument and answer to it directly, even IF it maybe could have been worded better. And you seem to me like a smart person, so stop creating strawmen please.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Thirdly, nothing surrounding Primordus got thrown away.

-The Asura got their "go underground, find a lost city, learn how to defeat Primordus, stop the Inquest from stealing lost secrets" plot back in HoT with Rata Novus, and the Draconis Mons release of LWS3(which was a Primordus heavy release to boot.)

Rata Novus was a side story. Thats like saying the Norn got their story because of Bjora Marches. The gap between how much attention sylvari had and how much Asura and Norn had is obviously apparent. Meanwhile LS3 was Balthazar centered, with primordus being a tool. It was not Primordus story.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

-The Dwarves equally got Destroyer story time in LWS3 with Ember Bay. Ember Bay itnroduced us to Rhoban who appeared in PoF leading a Priory Expedition to Dwarven ruins(filled with destroyers), and thenwe get the Dwarven/Destoryer focused DRM in IBS. That's three separate releases involving the Dwarves, and destroyers, and two of them were underground to boot.

The DRM's are bad and repeatedly recycled content. Pointing them out as evidencetowards the dwarves having their share of story involvement is even worth less that ember bay.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
  •  
  • So the things you said you wanted for an interesting Primordus storyline were already done, in Primordus related story sections throughout the game's lifespan. Including Asuran character motivation beyond Taimi yelling at Braham in the Metrica DRM.

There is a diffrence between having a few crumbles and a whole cake.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
  • All dragon minions are connected to their Elder Dragons, and function as something of a hive mind. Being a hive mind doesn't change them attacking using pack tactics, nor does it change that still being nothing more then animistic intelligence.

While that may be true. I used this argument against you wovles-example. And my argument for primordus having intelligence was entirely different.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
  • OFC she doesn't. Because attacking the Ascalonian Settlement ISN'T valuable. It serves no real strategic, or militaristic, importance. Attacking it is simply causing destruction for destruction sake compared to attacking something like Lions Arch, a major city thats also the hub of commerce in Tyira. You literally just pointed out that Jhavi admits that Primrodus just attacks thing to cause destruction, and not because they are sound military targets, as I had just got done saying, but then turn around and say you don't know how anyone could interpret it the way I did. At this point you are just tripping over yourself.

Again, you completely failed to get my point.

Jhavi suggested that Primordus made a decision. A decision not to go after a target that has purpose in a militaristic sense, but to do what it enjoys: Attacking helpless civillians. It made this decision, it executed manouvers to achieve that goal. It knew beforehand, that it had to distract the backup in order of being able to achieve that goal. What do you need for that kind of forsight? Intelligence.

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

What is bad manner is constantly trying to dodge the argument, by movin goalposts and throwing out personal attacks like "you have bad manners"

 

This entire claim is factually wrong.

I respond to every point you made, hence "dodging the argument" is the last thing you could ever possibly target me with.

Secondly, I never "moved the goalpost" by adressing your bad manners. I pointed out that your argument can be written in a less (passive-)agressive way, and I did so in a way that is closest to delivering this message in a "polite" way.

Third, adressing misbehaviour is not a personal attack. Calling it a personal attack would be like calling out someone insulting a person bad manners.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Second, 18 months of real time do not equal in-universe time.

I have nothing to say on this anymore, since its just everyone giving their subjective opinions, but this line is wrong. Since, at least, Season 1, the world passes at the same rate as our own.

Edited by Plagiarised.2865
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22 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

I have nothing to say on this anymore, since its just everyone giving their subjective opinions, but this line is wrong. Since, at least, Season 1, the world passes at the same rate as our own.

Eh... kinda... sorta... they try.

The problem is, they are unable to. More so with the "Champions" update, which is just one chapter stretched.

They said around Aurenes death, that they conceptulize their stories as a whole, back to back story (which was acutally a weird argument, because Aurenes death and resurection is supposed to feel weeks apart, but gameplaywise you would never leave that place), which works best being experienced in that manner.

While the ingame calender does try to sync up with our calendar, the releases do have still their own shedule and own timeline.

There is an inherent time wonkyness. They only go vague about the passed time in between, simply because they can't tell when someone will play it or when they actually release the thing.
(Like for me, I checked off the three DRMs on the first champions release in one day, which is possible thanks to waypoints and gates, which are canon, and then did nothing storywise till the next release. Guess there weren't any more attacks that needed me)

The only thing that is clearly on a set timescale are Festivals, but I tell you, with Primordus rampaging, Rata sum wouldn't hold a big Super Adventure Box festival. The city would be on lockdown and all hands possible on deck, to go out and help that frosty dragon.

These things do happen between releases. Even if stories are happening that are more important. They are not integrated anymore, like with Season 1.

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27 minutes ago, Jaken.6801 said:

Guess there weren't any more attacks that needed me

I'd like to imagine the Commander was fighting off attacks throughout the months inbetween the ones we play through.

 

It is nebulous. But I feel the broad timeline still works. For example, Icebrood Saga started in the end of 1332 and ended first quarter of 1334 (the story journal states 1333, but I think thats because Champions is categorised as one episode as started then). But, yeah, the details are nebulous.

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4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Third: The sudden realisation that Dragons are attracted to Ley Lines comes at a rather convienient time. Luring Dragons by Ley Line usage has never been established before and thus is literally connected to point number 2, that science in GW2 is a convenient plot device that doesn't do much more than prpgressing the plot when needed.

 

 

Actually this is not a new thing. Take a look back to Season 2.


Taimi: Yes, it's troubling, but it makes sense given how the dragons consume magic. They're undoubtedly attracted to ley lines like spiders are attracted to flies caught in their webs.


Remember Mordremoth was attacking waypoints because of the ley lines.

Edited by Tyson.5160
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3 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Actually this is not a new thing. Take a look back to Season 2.


Taimi: Yes, it's troubling, but it makes sense given how the dragons consume magic. They're undoubtedly attracted to ley lines like spiders are attracted to flies caught in their webs.


Remember Mordremoth was attacking waypoints because of the ley lines.


Attracted to ley lines, sure, but it's new information that they're actually "tethered" to them as I believe it was implied during the episode.

We essentially went from what we know which was, "Oh we can create a tasty ley line convergence at this random location and lure the dragons" to what we learned in this episode which was "Oh we can direct the ley lines with Aurene's prismatic powers and FORCE them to this location because they're tethered to them."

I mean, I suppose it doesn't seem like that much of a difference but when we consider Kralk's arc with season 4, he just upped and left to the mists to for a magic buffet. He didn't seem to be "tethered" to Tyria or its ley lines then. 

And on that note, people imply that Jormag was "forced" into this confrontation with Primordus but does it not stand to reason that Jormag could have done the same thing as Kralk and left to the mists? For that matter, Jormag was all about gaining power and yet didn't stop to think.. hey, I'll go the mists and finish what's left?

I think people are trying too hard to justify a story that even the devs themselves don't seem to want to justify or comment on. There's no way of knowing what the original story was going to be and I doubt we'll ever know because I think this is a chapter they want to put behind them swiftly and quietly. But I doubt the original plans involved the two dragons playing bobblehead Pokemon with their champions on an icy football field with the solution consisting of them essentially spitting down each others' throats, nor do I suspect the original plan involved Aurene twisting Ley Lines and forcing them into a random area in the mountains.


People do raise good points about not having Aurene to direct ley lines before, and that ley lines have always attracted/been connected to the dragons. But the fact that they can be directed AND force the elder dragons to a particular location seems pretty new.

Of course I could be misremembering but I don't want to do hours worth of DRM's just to get the point that I can replay that part of the story chapter as they didn't provide a checkpoint for the beginning of this episode. (At least from what I could tell.)

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On the topic of Primordus using tactics:

 

I think there is a distinction between "animalistic" and "incapable of using tactics". Plenty of predators, both solo and pack predators, use tactics. Hive minds such as ants also use tactics to some level.

 

Furthermore, it's also entirely possible that what was really going on in Gendarran Fields is that Primordus (or Primordus' champion) probed both locations, decided that Ascalon Settlement was the softer target, and went after the weaker prey. And identifying and going after the weaker prey is pretty much predator 101.

 

Mind you, I do think it's also possible that Jormag was exaggerating Primordus's animalistic nature. It's possible that Primordus is more of a case of being in a state of permanent rage and unable to think clearly rather than actually being of only animal intellect.

 

We'll probably never know now - and that's yet another lost opportunity.

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4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

On the topic of Primordus using tactics:

 

I think there is a distinction between "animalistic" and "incapable of using tactics". Plenty of predators, both solo and pack predators, use tactics. Hive minds such as ants also use tactics to some level.

 

Furthermore, it's also entirely possible that what was really going on in Gendarran Fields is that Primordus (or Primordus' champion) probed both locations, decided that Ascalon Settlement was the softer target, and went after the weaker prey. And identifying and going after the weaker prey is pretty much predator 101.

 

Mind you, I do think it's also possible that Jormag was exaggerating Primordus's animalistic nature. It's possible that Primordus is more of a case of being in a state of permanent rage and unable to think clearly rather than actually being of only animal intellect.

 

We'll probably never know now - and that's yet another lost opportunity.

There is also the thing with the animal spirits.

Jormag was apparently "sane" like the other dragons. Krakaltorik went mad after too much weird magic consumption and we don't neccessary know his diet.
Let's say he is more a rage emotional dragon, he can still be reasonable, etc. See the Norn. They can go wild and feel "primitive" but they are still able to use reason.

Jormag also consumed several animal spirits and as we have seen, the dragons absorb the properties of the magic they consume. Either for a certain amount of time, till it's converted (That's why we had hybrids for a certain amount of time, that don't matter anymore now) or they adapt properties (Krakaltoriks Mist jumping abilities).

The spirits themselves said they would be able to "guide" Primordous, as soon as they are absorbed. While it's implied that it would be their doing, they also say "they would grant him these abilities". So who says, that Jormag wasn't using things outside his "normal" capabilites.

Which, in the end, means that one way to soothe the dragons, is to basically create a "jiminy cricket" for each of them, to guide them. An ethical "silver surfer" for their "Galactus".

However, that ship seems to have sailed for now, as I don't believe we will go back to the six aspects, but to a singular one (which is kinda stupid, but, well, here we are)

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9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

On the topic of Primordus using tactics:

 

I think there is a distinction between "animalistic" and "incapable of using tactics". Plenty of predators, both solo and pack predators, use tactics. Hive minds such as ants also use tactics to some level.

 

Furthermore, it's also entirely possible that what was really going on in Gendarran Fields is that Primordus (or Primordus' champion) probed both locations, decided that Ascalon Settlement was the softer target, and went after the weaker prey. And identifying and going after the weaker prey is pretty much predator 101.

 

Mind you, I do think it's also possible that Jormag was exaggerating Primordus's animalistic nature. It's possible that Primordus is more of a case of being in a state of permanent rage and unable to think clearly rather than actually being of only animal intellect.

You're probably right on the reasoning of why Primordus attacked the Ascalon Settlement (anyone else wish they'd given that town a better name?) due to it being the weaker target, the way predators attack the young or weak first.

 

And I really wish you were right on your supposition that Primordus was perpetually overwhelmed by rage as opposed to not being truly sapient.  Its just so stupid that the current writers would make an Elder Dragon have the intelligence and self-awareness of a mere rabid animal.

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On 4/30/2021 at 8:15 PM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Braham's side effects from his corruption is certainly going to be one of those later story things since Icebrood saga was a rushed storyline. I suspect Braham's physical changes are more inner changes similar to how Logan and Zojja went through when Mordremoth used its corrupted ooze things to physically alter them back in Heart of Thorns.

However, as to why both Braham and Ryland reverted back to themselves instead of maintaining physical appearance (Ryland still had his fur a bit blue though), I have only been guessing it is related to how both of them had their connection severed from their Elder Dragons when they died. That and Braham's physical appearance was not that much of a change when he was corrupted by Primordus as looking at his appearance he basically only got slightly darker skin, glowing eyes, glowing chest, and rocks covering his arms. 

He grew to be over 10ft tall and was partially made of rock/fire. This is just spirit of the wild macguffery for why he isn't disabled. 

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4 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Its just so stupid that the current writers would make an Elder Dragon have the intelligence and self-awareness of a mere rabid animal.

Why exactly? Its a pretty common theme in storylines revolving immortal creatures that, after awhile, they just sort of stop thinking because the tole of the eons grows so much to handle.

 

Not to mention, we know from Kralkatorrik that taking in all this magical power leads to torment, which causes insanity. Kralk was barely hanging on by a thread itself, makes sense at least one of the Elder Dragons would have fallen entirely to the torment after eons.

 

Kralk and Primordus went down the sheer insanity path. While Mordremoth and Jormag seemed to go down the hyper psychopath path.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

forcing them into a random area in the mountains.

Its no a random area in the mountains. Its Anvil Rock from Guild Wars 1, a mountain in the shape of an anvil that was supposedly the Great Dwarf's forge. A fitting place to end Primordus.

 

15 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

And on that note, people imply that Jormag was "forced" into this confrontation with Primordus but does it not stand to reason that Jormag could have done the same thing as Kralk and left to the mists? For that matter, Jormag was all about gaining power and yet didn't stop to think.. hey, I'll go the mists and finish what's left?

Kralkatorrik eating the Mists was causing massive damage to Tyria, and could have possibly led to its destruction. I doubt Jormag wanted to destroy Tyria itself. It seemed more like it wanted to rule it.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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