Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]

[Bast.7253]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its no a random area in the mountains. Its Anvil Rock from Guild Wars 1, a mountain in the shape of an anvil that was supposedly the Great Dwarf's forge. A fitting place to end Primordus.

 

Kralkatorrik eating the Mists was causing massive damage to Tyria, and could have possibly led to its destruction. I doubt Jormag wanted to destroy Tyria itself. It seemed more like it wanted to rule it.

But to a Guild Wars 2 player that HASN'T played Guild Wars 1 and doesn't know what Anvil Rock, how does the story translate that importance to the player? 

As to Jormag destroying Tyria, perhaps. But Jormag first and foremost seems primarily concerned with survival. So you would think Jormag would care more about saving/protecting itself than ruling over Tyria. Can't really rule over anything if you're dead?

And that's what WE know as a player and assume Jormag knows, but it's just an assumption.

Jormag was also EXTREMELY bent on eliminating the connection between itself and Primordus, possibly more so than simply ruling Tyria.

[Bast.7253]

This is a bit of a sidenote but I replayed Flashpoint last night and I'm pretty amused at how much of it foreshadows the current patch. It's been so long that I couldn't remember but of the things that stuck out:

The emphasis on the machine being the ONLY way to eliminate Jormag and Primordus. Using their energies against each other.
Taimi joking about how it's not like Primordus and Jormag are going to get into a "fist-fight" and how if they did it could potentially be disastrous.

The dialogue viewing Taimi's simulation on if Primordus and Jormag were both eliminated shows the Eternal Alchemy spinning with Jormag and Primordus' two orbs connecting.. pulling each other closer.. and then essentially disentegrating with the center orb rapidly expanding and fluctuating. 

So, before we saw the representation of the dragons' deaths as orbs flying into the core of the eternal alchemy mechanism, but with this one we saw them essentially go "poof." Seems a bit different. 

The dialogue after watching the simulation is pretty vague as well with lines like, "Did we just... " "Is that... " as if they want to leave it up to our assumptions about what's happening in the eternal alchemy and what it actually means.


 

[Tyson.5160]

3 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

But to a Guild Wars 2 player that HASN'T played Guild Wars 1 and doesn't know what Anvil Rock, how does the story translate that importance to the player? 

As to Jormag destroying Tyria, perhaps. But Jormag first and foremost seems primarily concerned with survival. So you would think Jormag would care more about saving/protecting itself than ruling over Tyria. Can't really rule over anything if you're dead?

And that's what WE know as a player and assume Jormag knows, but it's just an assumption.

Jormag was also EXTREMELY bent on eliminating the connection between itself and Primordus, possibly more so than simply ruling Tyria.

Regarding Anvil Rock, you could make that argument with lots of Tyria’s landmarks. It makes the experience a little more satisfying for those who played Gw1 like a fun Easter egg.

***

 

Ryland does say this though.

<Character name>: I don't see Jormag playing offense against Primordus. Seems to me your Elder Dragon's more about hiding. Whispering.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Waiting for the right moment to strike isn't "hiding." Every attack needs a strategy.

 

Perhaps  Jormag didn’t even realized that they were being manipulated and pulled by the ley lines. None of the dialogue seems to indicate such. The manipulator is manipulated. This seems to be a revelation even to Aurene, mind you she hasn’t been an Elder Dragon very long.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Tyson.5160

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I hadn't even realized that Dragonstorm was at Anvil Rock, I don't recall any dialog that said as much, though the wiki does confirm it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No, you don't seem to get it, or even played these maps, because those champions in Asgeir's Legacy are effected by the spirit energy masteries(I know because I use it against them all the time), and the Tribues are part of the Dominion/Frost Legion, who are, again, getting power from Jormag, who is getting power from the Spirits of the Wild.

Most Icebrood in general can be attacked with the essence skills yes, but not Flame Legion even if in the Dominion, which one of those Tribunes are. But that's all just gameplay mechanics, and it is not once said or shown in lore.

I mean, hell, when Drizzlewood south began, the Steel Warband were immune to essence skills. People complained. Anet changed it. It wasn't about lore of Dominion being buffed by the Lost Spirits, it was just to make those essences useful beyond one map, and ANet had set up the same color coordination in the Ooze Pits meta.

Meanwhile, the Claw of Jormag, Elite Frost Legion Snipers, Elite Ice Giants, and, oh yes, Fallen Portals and Aberrant Portals cannot have essence skills used on them.

Why?

Not lore. Mechanics.

On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also incorrect. Some of them come out of the reality rifts, many are just floating around rift or not.

That's... What I said.

Like, exactly what I said.

There are some that come from reality rifts, and some are there normally. But they're the same kind of volatile magic, and are being used as a replacement node because Volatile Magic is the Season 4 currency. Grothmar giving volatile magic is one hell of an anomaly that most likely falls unto the fact that it's a "prologue" and that the "saga is not your standard LW season".

 

Christ, you really are just disagreeing with me just to disagree.

On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Even if all of them did come from the rifts, the rifts exist due to Kralk eating the Mists, and doing a lot of damage there, not simply because of an excess of magic. They are two different things, with two different origins.

The two actually are directly linked. Kralkatorrik messing with the Mists added more excess magic into the world.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, Imba.9451 said:

Second, 18 months of real time do not equal in-universe time.

Just want to comment on this Imba, but while we don't know the exact ratio post-Season 1 for time passed to time now, especially after the backlash that was "we just added 5 days to the calendar to make both calendars 365 days", we do know that ArenaNet still considers years to be synced up.

So, technically, 12 months of real time does equate 12 months Tyrian Time. In that 2021 CE = 1334 AE, and 2020 CE = 1333 AE.

The sole exception is that only 24 hours canonically pass between the end of Season 2 and the beginning of Heart of Thorns.

We just don't have much indication of how much time passes between LW episodes/expansion (except for how long HoT lasted - which was about 3 months, from S2 finale to Mordremoth's death, IIRC).

On 5/6/2021 at 4:06 PM, Jaken.6801 said:

They said around Aurenes death, that they conceptulize their stories as a whole, back to back story (which was acutally a weird argument, because Aurenes death and resurection is supposed to feel weeks apart, but gameplaywise you would never leave that place), which works best being experienced in that manner.

I think the gap between All or Nothing and War Eternal is the oddman out there because ArenaNet also released the Requiem short stories, which do indicate that "days" passed since the Commander left, as indicated in Requiem: Caithe.

On 5/6/2021 at 4:06 PM, Jaken.6801 said:

(Like for me, I checked off the three DRMs on the first champions release in one day, which is possible thanks to waypoints and gates, which are canon, and then did nothing storywise till the next release. Guess there weren't any more attacks that needed me)

There's dialogue indicating that several attacks happen that the Commander is not involvee in. I also imagine that the three/four attacks in each Champions release didn't happen in a single day, even if they can be played as such.

If we try to take the Tyrian Time setting for the in-game clock as canon, then any gameplay we complete happens in about 12x faster (2 real hours is 1 day Tyrian Time), so if your average DRM takes 15 minutes, then that's actually taking 3 hours for Tyrians.

But that's trying to associate strict mechanics as lore, which is something ArenaNet seldom actually do (despite certain people's insistence).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

 

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its no a random area in the mountains. Its Anvil Rock from Guild Wars 1, a mountain in the shape of an anvil that was supposedly the Great Dwarf's forge. A fitting place to end Primordus.

I gotta wonder if ANet was even aware that they put the map on Anvil Rock. After all, there is zero mention or recognition of the place as being anything other than some ambiguous ley-line hub that's in the middle of all the DRMs (which... isn't actually true - it's too north to be in the middle of all the DRMs).

6 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

This is a bit of a sidenote but I replayed Flashpoint last night and I'm pretty amused at how much of it foreshadows the current patch. It's been so long that I couldn't remember but of the things that stuck out:

I'd call it less foreshadowing, and more retroactively ignoring.

6 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

The dialogue after watching the simulation is pretty vague as well with lines like, "Did we just... " "Is that... " as if they want to leave it up to our assumptions about what's happening in the eternal alchemy and what it actually means.

The visuals of the cinematic were pretty clear. The central orb, representing Tyria, shakes violently, glows, and then bursts.

[Bast.7253]

2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

I gotta wonder if ANet was even aware that they put the map on Anvil Rock. After all, there is zero mention or recognition of the place as being anything other than some ambiguous ley-line hub that's in the middle of all the DRMs (which... isn't actually true - it's too north to be in the middle of all the DRMs).

I'd call it less foreshadowing, and more retroactively ignoring.

The visuals of the cinematic were pretty clear. The central orb, representing Tyria, shakes violently, glows, and then bursts.

 

What does the burst mean exactly? It feels like it's kind of open to interpretation. It fluctuates rapidly and then there's a bright light but does that represent the center orb exploding or is just their way of transitioning out of the cinematic?

I'm more or less thinking we saw a bright flashing light but we didn't actually see the orb "burst" into a bunch of different pieces. So it feels like it's kind of open if they WANTED to frame it in a different way.

But it doesn't seem that's something they plan to do. 

It's also weird that this is post Zhaitan and Mordremoth but we still see their orbs spinning around, even after Jormag and Primordus are simulated to cancel each other out. I wonder why they didn't show those orbs missing or have Taimi's simulation represent this?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

19 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

 

What does the burst mean exactly? It feels like it's kind of open to interpretation. It fluctuates rapidly and then there's a bright light but does that represent the center orb exploding or is just their way of transitioning out of the cinematic?

I'm more or less thinking we saw a bright flashing light but we didn't actually see the orb "burst" into a bunch of different pieces. So it feels like it's kind of open if they WANTED to frame it in a different way.

But it doesn't seem that's something they plan to do. 

It's also weird that this is post Zhaitan and Mordremoth but we still see their orbs spinning around, even after Jormag and Primordus are simulated to cancel each other out. I wonder why they didn't show those orbs missing or have Taimi's simulation represent this?

ArenaNet seldom ever thinks so far ahead in such details, even back in GW1 when they were pretty consistent in their lore, they didn't have any solid plans on who the fallen god pulling the strings would be. I doubt that they left it open for IBS or intentionally hinted at IBS at all.

Plus, Joe Kimmes made comments suggesting that "all is well now" because of Aurene indicating that they were originally saying, at that time, that indeed the world would go boom. But Aurene's presence, somehow, solves that issue, because conflicting magic no more or some silliness that doesn't directly relate to the quantity of magic or the balance of The All.

 

Re: Zhaitan and Mordremoth orbs: you can actually see they're innert at the beginning. Check their rings - they're much, much slower than the rings of the other four, and only begin to move when J and P clash.

Also take note of the dialogue from Hidden Arcana, specifically the norn scholar talking about The All, who notes that the orbs are not the Elder Dragons directly, but connected to them. So the Elder Dragons' deaths wouldn't mean their orbs' removal. This also lines up with the Season 2 vision of The All, in which it is Zhaitan's orb that rushes to the camera before crashing into Tyria.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 5/7/2021 at 10:42 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I gotta wonder if ANet was even aware that they put the map on Anvil Rock. After all, there is zero mention or recognition of the place as being anything other than some ambiguous ley-line hub that's in the middle of all the DRMs (which... isn't actually true - it's too north to be in the middle of all the DRMs)..

They never said it was in the middle of the DRMs, all the say is that dragon attacks have happened over the ley lines, and that this is where all these ley lines end up coming together.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

Councilor Vark: Research shows every location where the Frozen have appeared has a powerful ley line beneath it.

Taimi: Pinpoint where the ley lines intersect and lure the dragons there. We do that? BAM! We force them to collide.

 

On 5/7/2021 at 4:26 PM, Bast.7253 said:

This is a bit of a sidenote but I replayed Flashpoint last night and I'm pretty amused at how much of it foreshadows the current patch. It's been so long that I couldn't remember but of the things that stuck out:

Its not surprising. One thing people have been doing a lot is trying to boil down the entire Jormag/Primrodus story as being just IBS, when, in reality, LWS3 is a big chunk of it as well. Though LWS3 was more Primrodus focused with Ember Bay(Dwarves and Skritt), and Draconis Mons(Asura), with some Jormag content in Bitterfrost(Kodan and Quaggan), where as IBS was more Jormag content, with some Primrodus content.

 

*edit*

Taking this a bit further, I realized something. In LWS3 Primordus got two maps(Ember Bay and Draconis Mons), and Jormag got one(Bitterfrost). In IBS Jormag got two zones(Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood), and from what we could gather from the IBS portal tome, there would have been two more maps. One likely being in the Centaur homelands, and, based on dialog in EoTN, like Primordus focused, with the last map likely being the big meta fight.

 

This would have given both dragons three zones each, and a shared meta fight map. Would make sense if they planned to balance them out that way originally.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They never said it was in the middle of the DRMs, all the say is that dragon attacks have happened over the ley lines, and that this is where all these ley lines end up coming together.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

Councilor Vark: Research shows every location where the Frozen have appeared has a powerful ley line beneath it.

Taimi: Pinpoint where the ley lines intersect and lure the dragons there. We do that? BAM! We force them to collide.

Yes, and intersections meaning where they meet, which would indicate the (approximate) middle, but it's far north of any DRM (with two exceptions - Doric and Fireheart).

This, incidentally, also conflicts with Season 1 lore pointing Lion's Arch as the intersecting ley-line hub of Central Tyria, and where the ley-lines that pass through Brisban/Metrica/Caledon and elsewhere lead. With both north and south of LA attacked, one would think the logical intersection would, in fact, be the pre-established intersection of ley-lines in Central Tyria that's actually surrounded by the DRMs. Not some arbitrary new location.

 

But that would be expecting consistency during a barely made release.

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its not surprising. One thing people have been doing a lot is trying to boil down the entire Jormag/Primrodus story as being just IBS, when, in reality, LWS3 is a big chunk of it as well. Though LWS3 was more Primrodus focused with Ember Bay(Dwarves and Skritt), and Draconis Mons(Asura), with some Jormag content in Bitterfrost(Kodan and Quaggan), where as IBS was more Jormag content, with some Primrodus content.

Claiming that Ember Bay focused on dwarves and skritt is a gross overstatement. While they had some involvement, their involvement wasn't even related to Primordus, but stopping a ley-line overflow caused volcanic eruption and being stranded from shipwreck.

I was previously an advocate of saying Primordus got some focus in Season 3 so it'd be fine if it died this season, but the amount of focus it got in IBS is still pathetically lackluster, most of all being the lack of new enemy models. Compare to any other Elder Dragon, and the amount of destroyer models is downright sad.

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

and from what we could gather from the IBS portal tome, there would have been two more maps.

Depends on how they were using the slots, and their plans for post-Episode 4 maps. Could have been a total of five maps, could have been nine if they were doing one slot per map (keeping mind they did say that they didn't plan adding EotN to the portal tome until Episode 2 launched). Could have also been 4 more maps, with Episodes 5-8 getting their own map, making a total of seven.

Honestly, recently I've been feeling like IBS was meant to be a three act play, like the expansions largely were. Act 1 (1-4): Return of Jormag, Act 2 (5-8): Primordus awakens, Act 3 (9-10): they duke it out.

But then EoD merged Acts 2 and 3 into Champions, with some very obvious missing content here and there.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, and intersections meaning where they meet, which would indicate the (approximate) middle, but it's far north of any DRM (with two exceptions - Doric and Fireheart).

Yes, where the ley lines meet, not where the DRMs themselves meet. The DRMs could be in Elona, and Anvil Rock could be where the ley lines met, because the locations of the DRMs has nothing to do with what directions the ley lines under them are going. For example, all the ley lines could hypothetically flow north-south(I know they don't actually) so you could have DRMs everywhere from Cantha, to Elona, to Tyira, and the ley lines all intersect on the North Pole, because that is where they all end up by going north-south.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This, incidentally, also conflicts with Season 1 lore pointing Lion's Arch as the intersecting ley-line hub of Central Tyria, and where the ley-lines that pass through Brisban/Metrica/Caledon and elsewhere lead. With both north and south of LA attacked, one would think the logical intersection would, in fact, be the pre-established intersection of ley-lines in Central Tyria that's actually surrounded by the DRMs. Not some arbitrary new location.

This was never stated in LWS1. All that was ever stated was that some ley lines intersected under LA. We also know that there are ley lines hubs in

-Destruction's Maw in Ember Bay

-Dragon's Domain in Dragon's Stand

-Ley Line Confluence in Tangled Depths

-Ley line hub in Dry Top

-Thaumanova Reactor in Metrica Province

None of which were ever stated to be THE hub of all central Tyria. Let alone that central Tyria ever had a central hub to begin with.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Claiming that Ember Bay focused on dwarves and skritt is a gross overstatement. While they had some involvement, their involvement wasn't even related to Primordus, but stopping a ley-line overflow caused volcanic eruption and being stranded from shipwreck.

Both Rhoban and Researcher Twilli mention that the increased seismic and volcanic activity in the region, which necessitated the player using said contraptions, was due to Primordus and the destroyer's presence accelerating the natural build up.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I was previously an advocate of saying Primordus got some focus in Season 3 so it'd be fine if it died this season, but the amount of focus it got in IBS is still pathetically lackluster, most of all being the lack of new enemy models. Compare to any other Elder Dragon, and the amount of destroyer models is downright sad.

Sure, but other elder dragons gained mob diversity through corrupting living things. Something Primordus never cared for. Though I readily agree they should have made up at least a few more new destroyer types at least.

 

As for focus, If we take what the IBS portal tome shows at face value, then Primordus would have gotten one map(probably in the Centaur homelands) in IBS, before the meta battle map. Instead it has five DRMs(Metrica, Brisban, Gendarran, Fields of Ruin, and Thunderhead), and essentially a 6th in Fireheart Rise since everything but the final boss fight is about it. That's about 1.5-2 hours worth of content. Or about how long it takes to finish any of the map two parter's story assuming you don't get too bogged down in completing the open world events to progress the story. So about how much he likely would have gotten from episodes 5-6. What was really lost in that cut was the Centaur plotline more then Primordus focus.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Depends on how they were using the slots, and their plans for post-Episode 4 maps. Could have been a total of five maps, could have been nine if they were doing one slot per map (keeping mind they did say that they didn't plan adding EotN to the portal tome until Episode 2 launched). Could have also been 4 more maps, with Episodes 5-8 getting their own map, making a total of seven.

Well  the slots were literally called episodes 0-8, not maps 0-8. And That_Shaman's testing showed that Bjora part 1 and 2 were separate tome slots. With P1 taking you to Jora's Keep, and P2 taking you to the western side of the mountains(in case a person had episode 2, but not episode 1), same with Drizzlewood(EP3 taking you to the southern camp, with EP4 taking you to the northern one). So episodes 0-4 literally were slots 0-4. Leaving only 4 more slots left.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Honestly, recently I've been feeling like IBS was meant to be a three act play, like the expansions largely were. Act 1 (1-4): Return of Jormag, Act 2 (5-8): Primordus awakens, Act 3 (9-10): they duke it out.

Well there was no 9-10. Only 0-8 according to the tome. This would make sense when combined with LWS3, and the other dragons.

-The real campaign against Zhaitan was three maps(Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore) capped off with the dragon fight in Arah story mode.

-The battle against Mordremoth was three maps(Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, Tangled Depth) capped off with the fight meta in Dragon's Stand.

-The battle against Kralk was Jahai, and Thunderhead, and capped off with the dragon fight meta in Dragonfall. While Kralk didn't exactly get a dedicated starter map, his heavy presence in PoF, especially Vabbi, was pretty much the 4th map.

-By this same metric Primordus would have gotten three maps(Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and Centaur Homelands), as would Jormag(Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast), and then the would have gotten a shared meta map(Dragonstorm) which fits with the EP0-8 naming in the portal tome, as well as the dual release of Bjora, and Drizzlewood.

 

-

Edited May 11, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Plagiarised.2865]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, and intersections meaning where they meet, which would indicate the (approximate) middle, but it's far north of any DRM (with two exceptions - Doric and Fireheart).

An intersection does not need to be equidistant from all points.

 

Also, Taimi doesn't imply there is only one intersection. But the story journal does imply there to be many,

Quote

so the key would be to find a nexus where ley lines intersect and lure them to that spot

 

[Psientist.6437]

The 3 act structure isn't an ideal that all stories should emulate. It does resonate with the structure of the hero's journey. Much of the 3 act structure emerges on its own if a climatic ending is the goal. To varying degrees, all of the Elder Dragon arcs have conformed to a 3 act structure. The IBS isn't special in that regard. IBS becomes special when we apply the 3 act model to the Elder Dragon arc as a whole. The saga would be the transition from act 2 into act 3.

 

For years, I have been talking about the transition away from the 6 sphere configuration.  I wasn't basing my prediction on lore but on assumptions of plot structure. Aurene's abilities provide space for a third act climax and twist. Finding 6 replacements goes on for too long; tension becomes harder to create, fudge gets deeper, the end just arrives because the end of the list is reached. The studio described the plot of IBS and EoD as the culmination of  9 years of plot structure. I think this is true. They likely had the general plot outlined from the beginning. The Commander's hero journey was always going to be nested within Aurene's.

 

Imo, the IBS story was always going to fail to deliver. The IBS is the vital transition from act 2 into act 3. Would the studio be the studio without something happening to strip the saga of resources? Mostly being facetious there. Hopefully more objective reasons:

 

Twitter comments that had a profound impact on the audience; creating impossible expectations and, for me and anyone else that recognizes cheating, distrust.

 

Slow walking the exploration of All stability. The tension created by All stability is our biggest source of tension and is ignored. Faith in Asuran magitech is eroded even though it will be called upon in the future. All stability would inform the threat posed by Bangar. The player's assumptions about the largest source of tension do not align with plot trajectory. Of course your audience will feel drained of momentum when their assumptions are waved away.

 

Slow walking the exploration of Aurene the Elder Dragon gutted her agency and character progression. Same goes for exploring the evolution of her Champion. Explore both earlier and you maintain momentum from the preceding arc, ground the reasoning for getting too close with Jormag because we need information, ground the reasoning for Braham's evolution, and provide a foil for Ryland and Braham. Perhaps most importantly, slow walking the evolution of Aurene and her Champion's relationship erodes faith in the premise of nested hero journeys. Regardless of whether or not Aurene's is the one Domain to bind all Domains, it is important to build content at this vital point in the premise, the transition to Elder Dragon and Elder Champion.

 

The tone applied to Braham's arc. The destination of his arc was high enough that he didn't need to be taken to lower, puke soaked depths. Going so low made it harder to believe. His choice is terrifying and he deserved gravitas not hipster irony.

 

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Yes, where the ley lines meet, not where the DRMs themselves meet. The DRMs could be in Elona, and Anvil Rock could be where the ley lines met, because the locations of the DRMs has nothing to do with what directions the ley lines under them are going. For example, all the ley lines could hypothetically flow north-south(I know they don't actually) so you could have DRMs everywhere from Cantha, to Elona, to Tyira, and the ley lines all intersect on the North Pole, because that is where they all end up by going north-south.

This is the most asanine argument, because the DRMs aren't in Elona, they're at Thunderhead, Fireheart, Lake Doric, Gendarran, Caledon, Brisban, Metrica, Bloodtide, Snowden, and Fields of Ruin.

And your argument is false, because the placement of the DRMs would indeed alter where the ley-lines meet, because they're meeting towards the center.

 

That's how intersections work. You're not going to have a direct intersection of highways between Wisconsin, Utah, and Texas meet up over in Washington D.C.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This was never stated in LWS1. All that was ever stated was that some ley lines intersected under LA. We also know that there are ley lines hubs in

-Destruction's Maw in Ember Bay

-Dragon's Domain in Dragon's Stand

-Ley Line Confluence in Tangled Depths

-Ley line hub in Dry Top

-Thaumanova Reactor in Metrica Province

None of which were ever stated to be THE hub of all central Tyria. Let alone that central Tyria ever had a central hub to begin with.

It's not stated, but it is shown through Scarlet's energy thumpers which were designed to find the largest ley-line hub in Central Tyria to redirect the flow of the most magic towards Mordremoth. The entire point of attacking Lion's Arch and setting up energy probes all over Central and northenr Tyria was that Lion's Arch was the largest hub of ley-lines which directs ley-line flow from across Central Tyria.

Not to mention of all the hubs you mention, it's the only one that's actually in the center.

 

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Both Rhoban and Researcher Twilli mention that the increased seismic and volcanic activity in the region, which necessitated the player using said contraptions, was due to Primordus and the destroyer's presence accelerating the natural build up.

You should check your sources before making comments:

Rhoban: I've got islands to save and not much body to save it with.

<Character Name>: Crisis? Is this about the earthquakes? What's happening to the island?

Rhoban: There's a torrent of magical energy building up beneath these islands. Energy that feeds directly into the volcano.

Rhoban: My brothers and I have been tending to it for years, using four contraptions to release the pressure and delay an eruption.

Rhoban: Then Primordus and the blasted destroyers turned up. Wrecked the machines, killed the other dwarves.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Igneous_Breach

Primordus didn't cause the buildup, Primordus just wrecked the machines and killed the dwarves.

The magical buildup was due to Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's deaths, as evident by the fact that Primordus got death and plant empowered destroyers after showing up there - you know, the entire Primordus subplot of Season 3.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Sure, but other elder dragons gained mob diversity through corrupting living things. Something Primordus never cared for. Though I readily agree they should have made up at least a few more new destroyer types at least.

Except for Mordremoth, which didn't corrupt animals or the like but cloned them (which is actually the same thing Primordus does, but he's more abstract about the mockeries of animals he creates). Kralkatorrik also created some new models without corrupting anything (Branded Storm Elemental, the new Branded Earth Elemental, Wrathbringer) And also, false argument anyways because: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:Projects/NPC_models/Destroyers

Worst was probably the fact that they had created models for an extended Primordus army in the form of Destroyer Stone Summit, but didn't bother to use them in the actual Primordus plot, just as they didn't bother using the green destroyers.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

As for focus, If we take what the IBS portal tome shows at face value, then Primordus would have gotten one map(probably in the Centaur homelands) in IBS, before the meta battle map.

This is depending on how they did maps post-Episode 4, and whether the slots were really per episode as interpreted by their labeling, and not per map.

There is no guarantee that the original plan was to maintain "1 map for every 2 episodes" as you're so certain was the case. Could it have been? Yes, I established this already. But was it confirmed? No.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well  the slots were literally called episodes 0-8, not maps 0-8. And That_Shaman's testing showed that Bjora part 1 and 2 were separate tome slots. With P1 taking you to Jora's Keep, and P2 taking you to the western side of the mountains(in case a person had episode 2, but not episode 1), same with Drizzlewood(EP3 taking you to the southern camp, with EP4 taking you to the northern one). So episodes 0-4 literally were slots 0-4. Leaving only 4 more slots left.

Here's the major issue in your argument:

First off, the tests were with the portal scrolls, not the portal tome.

Second off, where would Eye of the North get slotted to, if Episode 2 slot was taken?

Third off, Drizzlewood only has one place the tome takes you to.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

-The real campaign against Zhaitan was three maps(Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore) capped off with the dragon fight in Arah story mode.

-The battle against Mordremoth was three maps(Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, Tangled Depth) capped off with the fight meta in Dragon's Stand.

-The battle against Kralk was Jahai, and Thunderhead, and capped off with the dragon fight meta in Dragonfall. While Kralk didn't exactly get a dedicated starter map, his heavy presence in PoF, especially Vabbi, was pretty much the 4th map.

-By this same metric Primordus would have gotten three maps(Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and Centaur Homelands), as would Jormag(Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast), and then the would have gotten a shared meta map(Dragonstorm) which fits with the EP0-8 naming in the portal tome, as well as the dual release of Bjora, and Drizzlewood.

* Zhaitan also has heavy influence in: Caledon Forest, Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fen (especially Sparkfly Fen), and Mount Maelstrom.

* Jormag Also has heavy influence in Frostgorge Sound, Snowden Drifts, and Wayfarer Hills.

* Kralkatorrik also has heavy influence in Fields of Ruins, Blazeridge Steppes, and Iron Marches. Not counting the heavy influence in Elon Riverlands, Desert Highlands, and Vabbi.

If you're going to count Season 3 for Primordus, you should count core maps for Jormag and Kralkatorrik too.

Primordus still gets the massively short end of the stick in GW2.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

An intersection does not need to be equidistant from all points.

 

Also, Taimi doesn't imply there is only one intersection. But the story journal does imply there to be many,

 

Of course it doesn't need to be equidistant, but it is expected to be at least somewhat so.

But on top of that, while the journal does imply that they simply needed to find "a ley-line nexus" and nothing more, Taimi explicitly states that they need one the ley lines all intersect at.

And that's all ignoring the fact that ley-line hubs seem to be a dime a dozen now with how many there seems to be, what with Champions literally adding 11 new hubs across Central Tyria alone.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Of course it doesn't need to be equidistant, but it is expected to be at least somewhat so.

But on top of that, while the journal does imply that they simply needed to find "a ley-line nexus" and nothing more, Taimi explicitly states that they need one the ley lines all intersect at.

And that's all ignoring the fact that ley-line hubs seem to be a dime a dozen now with how many there seems to be, what with Champions literally adding 11 new hubs across Central Tyria alone.

Champions added one, and only one. That being Dragonstorm. Taimi said that ley lines passed under the places the Icebrood attacked, not that those places were ley line hubs. Having a ley line under you doesn't make you a ley line hub. Ley line hubs are where multiple ley lines intersect.  No one, not even Taimi, stated the DRMS were ley lines hubs.

 

Not only that, but Taimi only mentioned ley lines being under where Frostbrood attacked, not where Primordus attacked. So even if she did say they were ley line hubs(she didn't) that would still only be 6 locations total(five DRMs and Dragonstorm), not 11.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This is the most asanine argument, because the DRMs aren't in Elona, they're at Thunderhead, Fireheart, Lake Doric, Gendarran, Caledon, Brisban, Metrica, Bloodtide, Snowden, and Fields of Ruin.

And your argument is false, because the placement of the DRMs would indeed alter where the ley-lines meet, because they're meeting towards the center.

 

That's how intersections work. You're not going to have a direct intersection of highways between Wisconsin, Utah, and Texas meet up over in Washington D.C.

It's not stated, but it is shown through Scarlet's energy thumpers which were designed to find the largest ley-line hub in Central Tyria to redirect the flow of the most magic towards Mordremoth. The entire point of attacking Lion's Arch and setting up energy probes all over Central and northenr Tyria was that Lion's Arch was the largest hub of ley-lines which directs ley-line flow from across Central Tyria.

Not to mention of all the hubs you mention, it's the only one that's actually in the center.

Konig, your argument here makes zero sense.

 

Being a hub of something does not mean being in the literal center of said something. Wheel hubs are in the center of a wheel, but the financial hub of a city can be anywhere in the city,. Likewise, California could be the hub of the highway network in the U.S., if most major highways met there. That wouldn't make California in the center of the U.S. Hub =/= literal center. It can apply to both a literal, and figurative, center.

 

And yes, all those ley lines could meet up in Anvil Rock, if the ley lines under them were going in these directions. Which we have no way of disproving since we don't see the Ley lines in these maps

https://i.imgur.com/7kUWiKW.jpg

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Except for Mordremoth, which didn't corrupt animals or the like but cloned them (which is actually the same thing Primordus does, but he's more abstract about the mockeries of animals he creates). Kralkatorrik also created some new models without corrupting anything (Branded Storm Elemental, the new Branded Earth Elemental, Wrathbringer) And also, false argument anyways because: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:Projects/NPC_models/Destroyers

Worst was probably the fact that they had created models for an extended Primordus army in the form of Destroyer Stone Summit, but didn't bother to use them in the actual Primordus plot, just as they didn't bother using the green destroyers.

Except Mordremoth does corrupt things, and doesn't just endlessly clone the same one thing over and over.(even if it did, it would still need to corrupt the thing originally to clone it) Many Mordrem are clearly fungal infested corpses of various animals(something even the wiki notates). Mordremoth clones its champions, Logan, and Zojja, but it also corrupts living things as well.

 

The rest of your argument is a false argument because I never said Primordus couldn't make up his own designs(in fact I said they should have had more designs meaning I believe he could) And the Stone Summit journals you collect in Forging Steel state that all the Stone Summit who disagreed with the peace with the Deldrimor met at that citadel. And we pretty clearly purge that place entirely in Forging Steel, meaning there shouldn't be any corrupted Stone Summit left to fight alongside Primordus in Dragonstorm.

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This is depending on how they did maps post-Episode 4, and whether the slots were really per episode as interpreted by their labeling, and not per map.

There is no guarantee that the original plan was to maintain "1 map for every 2 episodes" as you're so certain was the case. Could it have been? Yes, I established this already. But was it confirmed? No.

There is no interpretation of the labeling, its plain English. And Occam's Razor dictates the simplest answer is the most corrupt one. There is absolutely no justification for an argument of "well they could have changed it for no reason!" its the same as saying everything Anet says in the livestreams is a lie.  Its an unfalsifiable hypothesis, which is a fallacious argument.

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Here's the major issue in your argument:

First off, the tests were with the portal scrolls, not the portal tome.

Second off, where would Eye of the North get slotted to, if Episode 2 slot was taken?

Third off, Drizzlewood only has one place the tome takes you to.

Here's the major issue in your argument.

First off, the tests were in relation to how the scrolls related to the slots in the tome.

Second off, the Eye of the North slot was added after the fact(as Anet themselves stated at the time) due to fan outcry over it not being in the Portal Tome by default. You do know you can change code in the game once its been added in right? How do you think they do skill changes?

Third off, Drizzlewood can actually take you to either the northern or southern camp, depending on if you got the portal scroll in episode 3, or episode 4. Just like Bjora.

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

* Zhaitan also has heavy influence in: Caledon Forest, Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fen (especially Sparkfly Fen), and Mount Maelstrom.

* Jormag Also has heavy influence in Frostgorge Sound, Snowden Drifts, and Wayfarer Hills.

* Kralkatorrik also has heavy influence in Fields of Ruins, Blazeridge Steppes, and Iron Marches. Not counting the heavy influence in Elon Riverlands, Desert Highlands, and Vabbi.

If you're going to count Season 3 for Primordus, you should count core maps for Jormag and Kralkatorrik too.

Primordus still gets the massively short end of the stick in GW2.

All of this has literally nothing to do with the argument I made. I said those maps were where the actual campaign against the dragons took place in, not that those were the only maps the dragon's minions appeared in.

 

Any by this same metric Primordus and his destroyers appeared in

-Brisban Wildlands(Skrittsburgh Center, Skrittsburgh East End)

-Mount Maelstrom(Avernan Volatile, The Stychs, Magmatic Conjury, Mon Maelstrom, Maelstrom's Bile)

-Kessex Hills(Cereboth Canyon, Dominion Killing Zone)

-Fireheart Rise(Vexa's Lab)

-Lornar's Pass(Winterthaw Snowfield)

-Dredgehaunt Cliffs(Kapellenburg)

-Timberline Falls(Molodets Excavation, Sector Zuhl)

-Harathi Hinterlands(Feral Dens story instance)

-Metrica Province(Gadd's Last Gizmo story instance, Calx's Hideout)

-Crucible of Eternity(Independent Research Sector, Experimental Lab Red)

-Sorrow's Embrace(The Irongorge, Old Summit Quarry)

-Desert Highlands(Fortune's Vale, Enchanted Bluffs)

-Mythwright Gambit(Heart of the Cauldron)

-Crucible of Eternity(Psychoarcanic Monitoring Complex)

Destroyers are pretty all over the map in vanilla GW2, from just out in the open, during events, or story instances.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Plagiarised.2865]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Of course it doesn't need to be equidistant, but it is expected to be at least somewhat so.

No. It is not expected for an intersection to be even somewhat equidistant. An intersection is "an occasion when two [or more] lines cross." For example, here all these lines intersect but are at different distances.

[Psientist.6437]

Have we ever seen a straight, Tyrian ley line? Organically shaped zones are abstracted into squares and rectangles, making relative locations on the world map less meaningful. It would be harder to connect locations on a globe with wavy lines that don't cross instead of creating many intersections. 

 

Imo, complaining about the number and location of ley line intersections is the toxic lore curation we don't need. Stop trying to spin up a new threat to internal validity, we have too many already!

Edited May 13, 2021 by Psientist.6437

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:26 PM, Psientist.6437 said:

Imo, complaining about the number and location of ley line intersections is the toxic lore curation we don't need. Stop trying to spin up a new threat to internal validity, we have too many already!

To give some background on this "toxic curation":

In Seasons 1 and 2, it's stressed that ley-lines are rare occurrences, and this was part of why Scarlet had placed so many energy thumpers all over the place. The rarity of ley-lines is also a cause for a few other things we've had in the past lore, such as rare locations of high ambient magic or waypoints failing out. In Season 2, Mordremoth's vines traveled along ley-lines, and they followed a very specific path.

The DRMs - and several off-screen battles - apparently happening on ley-lines negates the "rarity" of these ley-lines. If ley-lines are meant to be places of high ambient magic, then why are places of high ambient magic *rare*, if these DRMs are happening all over the place? On top of that, why didn't the energy probes react, or Mordremoth's vines go close to many of these DRM locations?

It gets kind of silly when a place that was literally an abandoned mine that got resettled because of its strategic location (Ebonhawke) ends up being over a ley-line, but so is some random skritt city established while fleeing Primordus (Skrittsburg), and then bam, so is a city that was built while fleeing the flooding low grounds (Divinity's Reach).

Some places make sense to be over ley-lines, like the Flame Citadel and Owl Lodge, but these places that were built because they're refugee establishments and having so many, when you compound the many seasons, well...

It seems weird that all of these places happen to be over "rare" ley-lines, ignored by Mordremoth "traveling along ley-lines".

Gives the feeling that they're not "rivers of magic" but rather an ocean that covers the whole Central Tyria.

 

P.S., never claimed ley-lines were straight.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The DRMs - and several off-screen battles - apparently happening on ley-lines negates the "rarity" of these ley-lines. If ley-lines are meant to be places of high ambient magic, then why are places of high ambient magic *rare*, if these DRMs are happening all over the place? On top of that, why didn't the energy probes react, or Mordremoth's vines go close to many of these DRM locations?

It gets kind of silly when a place that was literally an abandoned mine that got resettled because of its strategic location (Ebonhawke) ends up being over a ley-line, but so is some random skritt city established while fleeing Primordus (Skrittsburg), and then bam, so is a city that was built while fleeing the flooding low grounds (Divinity's Reach).

Some places make sense to be over ley-lines, like the Flame Citadel and Owl Lodge, but these places that were built because they're refugee establishments and having so many, when you compound the many seasons, well...

It seems weird that all of these places happen to be over "rare" ley-lines, ignored by Mordremoth "traveling along ley-lines".

Gives the feeling that they're not "rivers of magic" but rather an ocean that covers the whole Central Tyria.

 

P.S., never claimed ley-lines were straight.

Again, not all DRMs were claimed to have ley lines under them. Vark only mentions that the places where Jormag's forces showed up have leylines under them. Which would mean Brisban, Ebonhawke, Gendarran Fields, Thunderhead Keep, and Metrica Province, are not included in this, since Jormag's forces don't show up there. Only Snowden Drifts, Bloodtide Coast, Lake Doric, Caledon Forest, and Fireheart Rise, qualify.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

Councilor Vark: Research shows every location where the Frozen have appeared has a powerful ley line beneath it.

Taimi: Pinpoint where the ley lines intersect and lure the dragons there. We do that? BAM! We force them to collide.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Plagiarised.2865]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

In Seasons 1 and 2, it's stressed that ley-lines are rare occurrences

No, in Season 2 the implication is that leylines are quite common, running through all waypoints. 

Quote

Taimi: When we asura placed the waypoints, some worked better than others, so we got rid of the ones that didn't work and kept those that did.
Player: They worked better when placed on a ley line.
Taimi: Correct. Without even realizing what we were doing, we tapped into the power of the ley lines. And it's no longer just theory. I can prove it now.

Since the waypoints that weren't placed on a ley line didn't work, then the ones that we see are the ones that are placed on a leyline. And since there are waypoints all over the place, so are leylines. Leylines are like veins and arteries through the Tyria. They are relatively common. 

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

/sigh (I can't believe i'm actually posting in this thread. i thought i'd given up on lore discussions)

 

the basics of ley lines as i understand them to be explained in the game are as follows: (my own inferences6 implied)

 

~ ley lines are the supposed building blocks of planet Tyria.

~ ley lines seem to be everywhere, proven by the locations of waypoints, since waypoints function way better near ley lines. (everywhere makes sense as building blocks of the planet)

~ dragons balance the magic of Tyria by absorbing ambient magic as needed, thus inferring that it prevents the ley line structure from becoming unstable through unbalance. 

~ Ley lines channel magic, but are not THE sources of magic, since dragons absorbe / feed off of ambient magic instead of ley lines, implying that ley lines might easily absorb magic but do not easily shed it, also implying that ambient magic is much more abundant than the same magic in ley lines at this time. the source of magic is never explained, so there may be a source of magic deep in Tyria, and there may be specific metaphoric scaled joints / rooms of the structure, since there needs to be a balance of the "6" magic types in order to maintain Tyria's structure.

~ Dragons are somehow connected to ley lines, can sense things through the ley line system as though it were part of their nervous system, implying they may part of the construction of Tyria. however, it has been proven through the deaths of multiple dragons, and others (like baalthazar, Aurene, and other super great beings) being able to absorb the death-released-magic, that the specific dragons are not part of the construction, but rather influencers of the balance of magic. they may be original influencers or not. it has been speculated that there may be a more powerful "Designer" of Tyria, that may appear in the future.

~ ley lines have different elevations and locations and sizes as well. some are exposed while some are buried deep, as proven by locations of waypoints, the cavern in Dry Top, The Battle of Lion's Arch, and all the HoT maps.

~ Scarlett was searching for a specific ley line, not just any ley line, because the plans were given to her by Mordremoth while he "slept", after she was made more sensitive to his calling by the vision she experienced inside Omadd's Machine. ( the word slept is in quotations because it means something different with dragons, since "sleeping dragons" seem to be able to make conscious decisions and actions even while sleeping, against the common usage of the word as it relates to human consciousness. since human consciousness seems to be the antonym of human sleep. )

~ though it is possible that it was just a ruse to set up thumpers all over (as a dristraction meant to buy time for the construction / polish of the Breachmaker), because she may have been able to wake Mordremoth from tapping any ley line any where due to the probable structural connections of ley lines to each other as the construction of the planet Tyria, Mordremoth-influenced-Scarlett chose to tap the Ley line under Lion's Arch for maximum destruction / crippling of Mordremoth's human and faction threats. (Hence the Marionette, which was tested in Lornar's Pass before the presumed planned-usage in Lion's Arch) It is also possible that the particular ley line provided the most direct path to Mordremoth while also giving the greatest crippling effect to said threats against Mordremoth. 

 

I'm tired, so i'm posting before i can proofread for stuff, including maybe leaving out something really important. i claim Bacon Defeciency Disorder.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[Psientist.6437]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To give some background on this "toxic curation":

In Seasons 1 and 2, it's stressed that ley-lines are rare occurrences, and this was part of why Scarlet had placed so many energy thumpers all over the place. The rarity of ley-lines is also a cause for a few other things we've had in the past lore, such as rare locations of high ambient magic or waypoints failing out. In Season 2, Mordremoth's vines traveled along ley-lines, and they followed a very specific path.

The DRMs - and several off-screen battles - apparently happening on ley-lines negates the "rarity" of these ley-lines. If ley-lines are meant to be places of high ambient magic, then why are places of high ambient magic *rare*, if these DRMs are happening all over the place? On top of that, why didn't the energy probes react, or Mordremoth's vines go close to many of these DRM locations?

It gets kind of silly when a place that was literally an abandoned mine that got resettled because of its strategic location (Ebonhawke) ends up being over a ley-line, but so is some random skritt city established while fleeing Primordus (Skrittsburg), and then bam, so is a city that was built while fleeing the flooding low grounds (Divinity's Reach).

Some places make sense to be over ley-lines, like the Flame Citadel and Owl Lodge, but these places that were built because they're refugee establishments and having so many, when you compound the many seasons, well...

It seems weird that all of these places happen to be over "rare" ley-lines, ignored by Mordremoth "traveling along ley-lines".

Gives the feeling that they're not "rivers of magic" but rather an ocean that covers the whole Central Tyria.

 

P.S., never claimed ley-lines were straight.

The total number of ley-lines does predict how many ley-line intersections we should expect to see, but not where the intersection would occur relative to locations connected by ley-lines. Recently, I described the writer's efforts as soggy mystery boxes made of snot-filled tissue. We probably don't "need" that approach either. I get the frustration. The writing and plot resembles this video but with more people in fancy dress and hands steepled insisting the moments they're upright and moving their legs is actually artful choreography.

 

As others have said, ley-lines aren't that rare. I don't mind a conveniently located intersection. If we picture the ley-line structure as a coiled bundle inside Tyria, we should expect to find intersections everywhere but at widely varied depths. Perhaps the ley-line structure will end up being a physical manifestation of the All. What we see so far looks very similar to the surface of a star...

[Raffrey.5271]

Aurene: "It's done, Champion."

Me: ".......what?"

 

I know something is very wrong if that's all I can come up with, after I finished reading a story. I thought the gw2 story was a fantasy, not a mystery.

 

Also, I don't think the devs gave it that much thinking when they decided to put a waypoint somewhere, especially when they designed the maps in Central Tyria. I think they too know they have put too much of them on Central Tyria, hence we have less in HoT maps, even less after HoT. They just somehow decided to add a setting somewhere in lws2 like oh the waypoints were on the ley-lines! Waypoints in Central Tyria should have been more about convenient and less about ley-lines/plot.