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Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]


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2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its no a random area in the mountains. Its Anvil Rock from Guild Wars 1, a mountain in the shape of an anvil that was supposedly the Great Dwarf's forge. A fitting place to end Primordus.

 

Kralkatorrik eating the Mists was causing massive damage to Tyria, and could have possibly led to its destruction. I doubt Jormag wanted to destroy Tyria itself. It seemed more like it wanted to rule it.


But to a Guild Wars 2 player that HASN'T played Guild Wars 1 and doesn't know what Anvil Rock, how does the story translate that importance to the player? 

As to Jormag destroying Tyria, perhaps. But Jormag first and foremost seems primarily concerned with survival. So you would think Jormag would care more about saving/protecting itself than ruling over Tyria. Can't really rule over anything if you're dead?

And that's what WE know as a player and assume Jormag knows, but it's just an assumption.

Jormag was also EXTREMELY bent on eliminating the connection between itself and Primordus, possibly more so than simply ruling Tyria.

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This is a bit of a sidenote but I replayed Flashpoint last night and I'm pretty amused at how much of it foreshadows the current patch. It's been so long that I couldn't remember but of the things that stuck out:

The emphasis on the machine being the ONLY way to eliminate Jormag and Primordus. Using their energies against each other.
Taimi joking about how it's not like Primordus and Jormag are going to get into a "fist-fight" and how if they did it could potentially be disastrous.

The dialogue viewing Taimi's simulation on if Primordus and Jormag were both eliminated shows the Eternal Alchemy spinning with Jormag and Primordus' two orbs connecting.. pulling each other closer.. and then essentially disentegrating with the center orb rapidly expanding and fluctuating. 

So, before we saw the representation of the dragons' deaths as orbs flying into the core of the eternal alchemy mechanism, but with this one we saw them essentially go "poof." Seems a bit different. 

The dialogue after watching the simulation is pretty vague as well with lines like, "Did we just... " "Is that... " as if they want to leave it up to our assumptions about what's happening in the eternal alchemy and what it actually means.


 

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3 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:


But to a Guild Wars 2 player that HASN'T played Guild Wars 1 and doesn't know what Anvil Rock, how does the story translate that importance to the player? 

As to Jormag destroying Tyria, perhaps. But Jormag first and foremost seems primarily concerned with survival. So you would think Jormag would care more about saving/protecting itself than ruling over Tyria. Can't really rule over anything if you're dead?

And that's what WE know as a player and assume Jormag knows, but it's just an assumption.

Jormag was also EXTREMELY bent on eliminating the connection between itself and Primordus, possibly more so than simply ruling Tyria.


Regarding Anvil Rock, you could make that argument with lots of Tyria’s landmarks. It makes the experience a little more satisfying for those who played Gw1 like a fun Easter egg.

***

 

Ryland does say this though.

<Character name>: I don't see Jormag playing offense against Primordus. Seems to me your Elder Dragon's more about hiding. Whispering.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Waiting for the right moment to strike isn't "hiding." Every attack needs a strategy.

 

Perhaps  Jormag didn’t even realized that they were being manipulated and pulled by the ley lines. None of the dialogue seems to indicate such. The manipulator is manipulated. This seems to be a revelation even to Aurene, mind you she hasn’t been an Elder Dragon very long.

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On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No, you don't seem to get it, or even played these maps, because those champions in Asgeir's Legacy are effected by the spirit energy masteries(I know because I use it against them all the time), and the Tribues are part of the Dominion/Frost Legion, who are, again, getting power from Jormag, who is getting power from the Spirits of the Wild.

Most Icebrood in general can be attacked with the essence skills yes, but not Flame Legion even if in the Dominion, which one of those Tribunes are. But that's all just gameplay mechanics, and it is not once said or shown in lore.

I mean, hell, when Drizzlewood south began, the Steel Warband were immune to essence skills. People complained. Anet changed it. It wasn't about lore of Dominion being buffed by the Lost Spirits, it was just to make those essences useful beyond one map, and ANet had set up the same color coordination in the Ooze Pits meta.

Meanwhile, the Claw of Jormag, Elite Frost Legion Snipers, Elite Ice Giants, and, oh yes, Fallen Portals and Aberrant Portals cannot have essence skills used on them.

Why?

Not lore. Mechanics.

On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also incorrect. Some of them come out of the reality rifts, many are just floating around rift or not.

That's... What I said.

Like, exactly what I said.

There are some that come from reality rifts, and some are there normally. But they're the same kind of volatile magic, and are being used as a replacement node because Volatile Magic is the Season 4 currency. Grothmar giving volatile magic is one hell of an anomaly that most likely falls unto the fact that it's a "prologue" and that the "saga is not your standard LW season".

 

Christ, you really are just disagreeing with me just to disagree.

On 5/6/2021 at 12:24 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Even if all of them did come from the rifts, the rifts exist due to Kralk eating the Mists, and doing a lot of damage there, not simply because of an excess of magic. They are two different things, with two different origins.

The two actually are directly linked. Kralkatorrik messing with the Mists added more excess magic into the world.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, Imba.9451 said:

Second, 18 months of real time do not equal in-universe time.

Just want to comment on this Imba, but while we don't know the exact ratio post-Season 1 for time passed to time now, especially after the backlash that was "we just added 5 days to the calendar to make both calendars 365 days", we do know that ArenaNet still considers years to be synced up.

So, technically, 12 months of real time does equate 12 months Tyrian Time. In that 2021 CE = 1334 AE, and 2020 CE = 1333 AE.

The sole exception is that only 24 hours canonically pass between the end of Season 2 and the beginning of Heart of Thorns.

We just don't have much indication of how much time passes between LW episodes/expansion (except for how long HoT lasted - which was about 3 months, from S2 finale to Mordremoth's death, IIRC).

On 5/6/2021 at 4:06 PM, Jaken.6801 said:

They said around Aurenes death, that they conceptulize their stories as a whole, back to back story (which was acutally a weird argument, because Aurenes death and resurection is supposed to feel weeks apart, but gameplaywise you would never leave that place), which works best being experienced in that manner.

I think the gap between All or Nothing and War Eternal is the oddman out there because ArenaNet also released the Requiem short stories, which do indicate that "days" passed since the Commander left, as indicated in Requiem: Caithe.

On 5/6/2021 at 4:06 PM, Jaken.6801 said:

(Like for me, I checked off the three DRMs on the first champions release in one day, which is possible thanks to waypoints and gates, which are canon, and then did nothing storywise till the next release. Guess there weren't any more attacks that needed me)

There's dialogue indicating that several attacks happen that the Commander is not involvee in. I also imagine that the three/four attacks in each Champions release didn't happen in a single day, even if they can be played as such.

If we try to take the Tyrian Time setting for the in-game clock as canon, then any gameplay we complete happens in about 12x faster (2 real hours is 1 day Tyrian Time), so if your average DRM takes 15 minutes, then that's actually taking 3 hours for Tyrians.

But that's trying to associate strict mechanics as lore, which is something ArenaNet seldom actually do (despite certain people's insistence).

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9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its no a random area in the mountains. Its Anvil Rock from Guild Wars 1, a mountain in the shape of an anvil that was supposedly the Great Dwarf's forge. A fitting place to end Primordus.

I gotta wonder if ANet was even aware that they put the map on Anvil Rock. After all, there is zero mention or recognition of the place as being anything other than some ambiguous ley-line hub that's in the middle of all the DRMs (which... isn't actually true - it's too north to be in the middle of all the DRMs).

6 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

This is a bit of a sidenote but I replayed Flashpoint last night and I'm pretty amused at how much of it foreshadows the current patch. It's been so long that I couldn't remember but of the things that stuck out:

I'd call it less foreshadowing, and more retroactively ignoring.

6 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

The dialogue after watching the simulation is pretty vague as well with lines like, "Did we just... " "Is that... " as if they want to leave it up to our assumptions about what's happening in the eternal alchemy and what it actually means.

The visuals of the cinematic were pretty clear. The central orb, representing Tyria, shakes violently, glows, and then bursts.

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2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

I gotta wonder if ANet was even aware that they put the map on Anvil Rock. After all, there is zero mention or recognition of the place as being anything other than some ambiguous ley-line hub that's in the middle of all the DRMs (which... isn't actually true - it's too north to be in the middle of all the DRMs).

I'd call it less foreshadowing, and more retroactively ignoring.

The visuals of the cinematic were pretty clear. The central orb, representing Tyria, shakes violently, glows, and then bursts.

 


What does the burst mean exactly? It feels like it's kind of open to interpretation. It fluctuates rapidly and then there's a bright light but does that represent the center orb exploding or is just their way of transitioning out of the cinematic?

I'm more or less thinking we saw a bright flashing light but we didn't actually see the orb "burst" into a bunch of different pieces. So it feels like it's kind of open if they WANTED to frame it in a different way.

But it doesn't seem that's something they plan to do. 

It's also weird that this is post Zhaitan and Mordremoth but we still see their orbs spinning around, even after Jormag and Primordus are simulated to cancel each other out. I wonder why they didn't show those orbs missing or have Taimi's simulation represent this?

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19 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

 


What does the burst mean exactly? It feels like it's kind of open to interpretation. It fluctuates rapidly and then there's a bright light but does that represent the center orb exploding or is just their way of transitioning out of the cinematic?

I'm more or less thinking we saw a bright flashing light but we didn't actually see the orb "burst" into a bunch of different pieces. So it feels like it's kind of open if they WANTED to frame it in a different way.

But it doesn't seem that's something they plan to do. 

It's also weird that this is post Zhaitan and Mordremoth but we still see their orbs spinning around, even after Jormag and Primordus are simulated to cancel each other out. I wonder why they didn't show those orbs missing or have Taimi's simulation represent this?

ArenaNet seldom ever thinks so far ahead in such details, even back in GW1 when they were pretty consistent in their lore, they didn't have any solid plans on who the fallen god pulling the strings would be. I doubt that they left it open for IBS or intentionally hinted at IBS at all.

Plus, Joe Kimmes made comments suggesting that "all is well now" because of Aurene indicating that they were originally saying, at that time, that indeed the world would go boom. But Aurene's presence, somehow, solves that issue, because conflicting magic no more or some silliness that doesn't directly relate to the quantity of magic or the balance of The All.

 

Re: Zhaitan and Mordremoth orbs: you can actually see they're innert at the beginning. Check their rings - they're much, much slower than the rings of the other four, and only begin to move when J and P clash.

Also take note of the dialogue from Hidden Arcana, specifically the norn scholar talking about The All, who notes that the orbs are not the Elder Dragons directly, but connected to them. So the Elder Dragons' deaths wouldn't mean their orbs' removal. This also lines up with the Season 2 vision of The All, in which it is Zhaitan's orb that rushes to the camera before crashing into Tyria.

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