What's Your Thoughts on Changes to Rev Regarding May 11 Patch Notes for PvP?

[Jaykay.9641]

Title.

I'm mainly thinking from a PvP perspective. But I have some thoughts and predictions...

• Condi Herald Mallyx will be completely changed with Torment and Resistance changes. Torment will do less d amage in PvP not that it does more kittenmage to stationary targets. Also, Pain Absorption and Dragon Facet Demon seem like death sentences now that Resistance does nothing for you to stop condi d amage. This will have to be looked at.
• Will  Dwarf Stance be the new Mallyx? Seems Dwarf will gives decent amounts of Resolution (which is condi d amage reduction now). Combined with Vengeful Hammers, traited Versed in Stone, and the fact that Dwarf heal (Soothing Stone) cleanses 5 conditions AND will give Resolution now, I feel like Dwarf is just going to be a tanky powerhouse for both power and condi. in fact, Core Rev with Dwarf Ancient Echo may be super powerful.
• Kalla Elite lifesteal change to ICD of 1 sec will hurt, so I think the energy cost should be reduced to compensate.

 

kittenmage modifier changes on some traits may be fun to play around with, but it seems to affect PvE more, but I' like to hear everyone's thoughts.

IDK, I was really hopeful for some systemic changes to Rev; something like energy changes, Healing Orb and Ventari legend changes, etc. Patch notes kinkitten left me feeling empty in a way.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

[Virdo.1540]

I love the changes and i cant wait for it to finally come. 

 

Would have wished some kind of Healing Orb revamp, like you mentionend

[Za Shaloc.3908]

As a mostly solo WvW player, I am very happy to see retal removed, but the changes to Resolution and Resistance should require a total reevaluation of each skill that gives access to these boons. The changes to Resistance were horribly thought out in relation to its impact on Mallyx (additionally skills like Save Yourselves!, Signet of Renewal, and all the resistance-granting skills/traits from Warrior). For a legend that has no inherent access to cleanse (beyond True Nature F2), Pain Absorption and Facet of Nature - Demon both become a liability. They were designed with the whole idea of *holding* conditions in mind, and now as you and many others have brought up throughout other posts, it is a total gamble in any sort of group play. This is my biggest issue with the change. ANet decides to make massive blanket changes to 2 boons while forgetting the impact these changes have on builds that are completely balanced around these previous functionalities. At this point, I think a rework to Pain Absorption and Facet of Nature - Demon would be of benefit.

 

 

I agree with you completely on the Kalla Elite change; the nerf is insanely massive. I agree with ANet that the skill was horribly difficult to balance, but they specifically designed the entire elite with multi-hits in mind in order to provide synergy with Soulcleave, so I find it a bit funny that they are going back on this. IMO, it should have its life siphon kittenmage/healing values increased, have its cast time reduced to 0.5s, and its upkeep cost reduced to -8.

 

I also was really hoping for some Ventari & healing orb changes. Big sad. 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Janitsu.6284]

Kalla elite will not be worth using for the below 500 kittenmage it deals on a 1 second ICD.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i think in pvp the new resolution boon will make certain rev builds too hard to kill at higher levels. resistance should negate d.amaging condis instead, the change is dumb.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The changes to torment and the boons are good directions for the game, but need some work in the skills and logical flow of where those boons come from. For instance, Jalis heal removes condis and then gives you resolution, which doesn't really make sense for a practical full condi clear to then give you reduced damage against the very thing you just removed. Also some classes have too much or too little access.

 

Changes to torment are better for PvP overall because it both nerfs it slightly, but also rewards you for landing CC combos instead of just spamming torment. A CC'd player will now be taking a lot of damage from Torment, so landing things like Call into mace 2 into Axe 5 into mace 3 are now going to be dealing some hefty bursts.

[Shao.7236]

The changes are "good" but functionally breaks Mallyx in many ways.

 

Empowering Misery is basically the worst heal in the game now with the lowest base values, Poison will always affect it and trying to benefit from this heal will not prevent the risk of pressure that it requires.

 

Pain Absorption is now extremely dangerous to use no matter how much Resistance is granted because condition damage is not mitigated whatsoever.

 

Mallyx on core has no way to transfer or clear the several conditions it'll get from optimal play and on Herald it'll be even more punishing for players trying to stack conditions to burst as it was intended, Renegade has the best chance of survival with it's heal, Rightious Rebel and abundance of Retaliation that currently exist within it and Spirit Boon.

 

Many traits remain as useless as they were after 2020 absolute destruction thanks to the dumb trait called Fiendish Tenacity and Rune of Resistance ICD.

 

Mallyx requires a rework of it's heal and stunbreak along traits, as for now it'll be one of the worst thing players could ever pick in the game.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Shao.7236

[mistsim.2748]

From what I understand, Mallyx/Herald will be entirely unplayable in pvp unless Mallyx gets reworks (condi cleanses and access to Resolution). Too bad, because I just learned this spec after its nerfs. Mallyx is by far my favorite legend, and it looks like it's being relegated to PvE only. 

 

Renegade, Jalis and any talent tree that give Resolution will become stronger.

Edited April 30, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Shao.7236]

53 minutes ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

Kalla elite will not be worth using for the below 500 kittenmage it deals on a 1 second ICD.

I've called on this requirement for a while during the time Renegade was overpowered as a Bunker in PvP, in the end we had to nerf everything else before they finally came to the realization that not having a cap per second is a broken design.

 

Whether liking it or not. It's deserved, anytime I played Renegade, my friend would always be immortal with his Quickness Flamethrower in the AoE.

[Telgum.6071]

With Herald Mallyx gone I'm going to give a try to this core Shiro/Jalis thing with Retribution. Thinking about mace+axe and staff and celestial stats.

 

Also considering a full dps renegade build with the Devastation and Invocation buffs. I look forward for a DPS specialization.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Janitsu.6284]

Just now, Shao.7236 said:

I've called on this requirement for a while during the time Renegade was overpowered as a Bunker in PvP, in the end we had to nerf everything else before they finally came to the realization that not having a cap per second is a broken design.

 

Whether liking it or not. It's deserved, anytime I played Renegade, my friend would always be immortal with his Quickness Flamethrower in the AoE.

Well if you look at this form PvE perspective, the skill is absolutely useless. There is no point in using any of the elite skills in PvE apart from Mallyx elite. The rest of them are completely useless right now and only a waste of energy (well Herald uses it as well but only because of Dragonic Echo). Having it uncapped isn't the issue, that allows for actual theorycrafting and creates synergies. They could've just nerfed the values.

[Shao.7236]

2 minutes ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

Well if you look at this form PvE perspective, the skill is absolutely useless. There is no point in using any of the elite skills in PvE apart from Mallyx elite. The rest of them are completely useless right now and only a waste of energy (well Herald uses it as well but only because of Dragonic Echo). Having it uncapped isn't the issue, that allows for actual theorycrafting and creates synergies. They could've just nerfed the values.

Add a cap then reduce the upkeep to -6 is more reasonable.

 

There's nothing in the game that would allow so much healing per strike and it honestly shouldn't exist.

 

That stuff heals for more than Healing Signet that by itself is already considered strong. Doing more of it and be based on attacks per second is ridiculous.

 

10 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

With Herald Mallyx gone I'm going to give a try to this core Shiro/Jalis thing with Retribution. Thinking about mace+axe and staff and celestial stats.

 

Also considering a full dps renegade build with the Devastation and Invocation buffs. I look forward for a DPS specialization.

Consider looking at the Core Power build on MB, I've been out there playing it at high level for a while. It"s a great build.

[Janitsu.6284]

4 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Add a cap then reduce the upkeep to -6 is more reasonable.

 

There's nothing in the game that would allow so much healing per strike and it honestly shouldn't exist.

 

That stuff heals for more than Healing Signet that by itself is already considered strong. Doing more of it and be based on attacks per second is ridiculous.

Well the thing is that there is no reason to use it at all. If it has a cap, there needs to be a huge buff to it for it to be feasible to use. Currently it deals too little damage and heals too little in a PvE scenario. To put this in context, Shiro Facet of Nature heals more and it's 10-man while also dealing more damage. And it has a lower ICD on top of all that.

 

They could've just taken down the damage and/or healing and it would've been fine since it required proper timing and active gameplay to be useful in PvE.

[Shao.7236]

2 minutes ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

Well the thing is that there is no reason to use it at all. If it has a cap, there needs to be a huge buff to it for it to be feasible to use. Currently it deals too little damage and heals too little in a PvE scenario. To put this in context, Shiro Facet of Nature heals more and it's 10-man while also dealing more damage. And it has a lower ICD on top of all that.

 

They could've just taken down the damage and/or healing and it would've been fine since it required proper timing and active gameplay to be useful in PvE.

Draconic Echo doesn't increase target cap anymore and the siphon itself does have an internal cooldown of 0.25 however that one is compensated by the fact it heals for much less.

 

I did enjoy the way the skill worked, even thought it's broken. Except that having that 1 second cooldown does unify and balance the effect better across all professions and skills alike.

 

Making the upkeep -6 is a significant buff as the effects will be able to last longer which as burning field can be used for a while.

[Janitsu.6284]

5 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Draconic Echo doesn't increase target cap anymore and the siphon itself does have an internal cooldown of 0.25 however that one is compensated by the fact it heals for much less.

 

I did enjoy the way the skill worked, even thought it's broken. Except that having that 1 second cooldown does unify and balance the effect better across all professions and skills alike.

 

Making the upkeep -6 is a significant buff as the effects will be able to last longer which as burning field can be used for a while.

Dragonic Echo's target cap was normalised to the skills so they are 10-man by default now. That means that Facet of Nature is 10-man as well. To put things into perspective, Soulcleave's Summit is now worse than regen is in PvE and deals less damage than the Renegade using other skills. There is no reward for using it apart from maybe the protection and fire field, but those can be provided by almost anything else in PvE context. The healing on Facet of Nature now parallels Soulcleave's Summit at 0 Healing Power.

[Jaykay.9641]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

resistance should negate d.amaging condis instead, the change is dumb.

Agreed.

 

In the main patch notes thread, I made a suggestion that conversions should be Retaliation -> New Resistance; Old Resistance -> New Resolution. They're messing with some very delicate balance from Resistance as it's core to some functions (Mallyx Legend, Rune of the Revenant, Resistance Runes, etc.)

 

I'm worried that Radiance Guardian is just going to be busted in PvP. They have loads of Retaliation which translates to loads of new Resolution. Combined with the fact they can product Light Aura on demand (10% less condi d amage AND Resolution on hit) and have some of the best condi cleanse in the game. This just sounds broken. Also, How will Light Aura stack with Resolution? Just doesn't make sense to me.  I Think Light Aura giving new Resistance would be better as it lets some classes with Light Fields and leaps be more mobile (Guardian, Holo) instead of straight up condi defense.

[otto.5684]

I really don’t think Anet has put the slightest effort in understanding the consequence of the changes. Resistance is key for Mallyx pvp survivability. Sure, it was a bad design and changing for the overall game is nice, but did someone at Anet took a second to understand how this impacts various classes, like dev and warrior? I guess not. And guardian, the class with best access to condi cleanse has a boon with super generous access to reduce condi damage by 33%. I feel the last time anyone in Anet have played the game, heck, even bothered to read what skills do, was more than 18 month ago. Mind you, this patch was 10 month in the making and is supposed to be a precursor to the expansion. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

From a PvP/WvW perspective, I think these changes still need work since there’s a lot of unresolved issues as already pointed out with Mallyx and Resolution.  However, I like the larger scale direction of the changes and hope we’ll see more work soon to make it all fit together on rev.

 

From a PvE perspective, the buffs to condi damage just make me really wish there was a Conc (major), Condi Dmg, Expertise set of stats for gear so that boon builds could go condi like Diviner has allowed power.  Power alacrigade may still be better in a lot of situations, but it’s still something that I think should happen.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

13 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Changes to torment are better for PvP overall because it both nerfs it slightly, but also rewards you for landing CC combos instead of just spamming torment. A CC'd player will now be taking a lot of damage from Torment, so landing things like Call into mace 2 into Axe 5 into mace 3 are now going to be dealing some hefty bursts.

i disagree with this. The amount of time players spend CC’d vs Moving is incredibly low.  Most players are moving constantly even while afflicted with torment. This is effectively a 50% damage reduction to torment damage most of the time, rewarding the enemy player for doing literally nothing but holding a movement key. Additionally, you can’t even stack torment fast enough during a CC combo to truly take advantage of the lack of movement anyway. This is definitely a massive nerf to how the condition plays and thus a massive nerf to all variants of Condi rev  

[Shao.7236]

10 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

i disagree with this. The amount of time players spend CC’d vs Moving is incredibly low.  Most players are moving constantly even while afflicted with torment. This is effectively a 50% damage reduction to torment damage most of the time, rewarding the enemy player for doing literally nothing but holding a movement key. Additionally, you can’t even stack torment fast enough during a CC combo to truly take advantage of the lack of movement anyway. This is definitely a massive nerf to how the condition plays and thus a massive nerf to all variants of Condi rev  

In all of either cases the victim can mitigate the damage, going in any direction doesn't change much from a PvP perspective and it's clear that Anet saw that in the process.

 

There's no such AoE that could be reliably used for punishing standing still where as CC'ing into said AoE will now have more reward for the attacker rather than be denying itself damage by stopping players from moving with anything, this also include interrupting important skills.

 

I would heavily lean into the fact that I never user any skills after burst because I knew that it screws damage and when people stand still right now, there's no reason to CC outside of interrupts, with the new Torment there's a reason to keep it coming even if it's doesn't mean interrupting something important.

 

Damage is more predictable that way and with that, it's hard to say no, any fights as a condi rev of all form was already plagued with standing still anyway, it'll just be constant moving now.

[Shao.7236]

12 hours ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

Dragonic Echo's target cap was normalised to the skills so they are 10-man by default now. That means that Facet of Nature is 10-man as well. To put things into perspective, Soulcleave's Summit is now worse than regen is in PvE and deals less damage than the Renegade using other skills. There is no reward for using it apart from maybe the protection and fire field, but those can be provided by almost anything else in PvE context. The healing on Facet of Nature now parallels Soulcleave's Summit at 0 Healing Power.

 

Oh nice to know I never realized, mixed feelings about that but anyway.

 

Shiro's Facet and Soulcleave are not comparable. To also fix another mistake, it's only every 0.5 for Shiro at 85 healing per activation, it's still a far cry from Soulcleave.

 

Also Shiro's depend on the individual healing power of who receives the effect, not who grants it. That's unlike Soulcleave which depends from the user of the skill.

 

Adding that all up from the base stats Shiro is as good as 170 healing per second while Soulcleave is still a thick 386 healing per second.

 

That's still good.

[Janitsu.6284]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

Oh nice to know I never realized, mixed feelings about that but anyway.

 

Shiro's Facet and Soulcleave are not comparable. To also fix another mistake, it's only every 0.5 for Shiro at 85 healing per activation, it's still a far cry from Soulcleave.

 

Also Shiro's depend on the individual healing power of who receives the effect, not who grants it. That's unlike Soulcleave which depends from the user of the skill.

 

Adding that all up from the base stats Shiro is as good as 170 healing per second while Soulcleave is still a thick 386 healing per second.

 

That's still good.

In PvE, that amount of healing is negligible. And since the facet is 10-man, it gets 4 procs for every 1 SS procs. The energy costs are also 2 Vs. 8, with SS having 10 energy initial costs and MASSIVE cast time that can be interrupted just like the SS can be interrupted. Because it also scales with affected players stats it will be better than skills using the stats from supports.

[medivh.4725]

I can't use my Glint heal Herald when people just ask for alacrity
Also hammer animated actions should be 10% quicker

Edited May 1, 2021 by medivh.4725

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

In all of either cases the victim can mitigate the damage, going in any direction doesn't change much from a PvP perspective and it's clear that Anet saw that in the process.

 

There's no such AoE that could be reliably used for punishing standing still where as CC'ing into said AoE will now have more reward for the attacker rather than be denying itself damage by stopping players from moving with anything, this also include interrupting important skills.

 

I would heavily lean into the fact that I never user any skills after burst because I knew that it screws damage and when people stand still right now, there's no reason to CC outside of interrupts, with the new Torment there's a reason to keep it coming even if it's doesn't mean interrupting something important.

 

Damage is more predictable that way and with that, it's hard to say no, any fights as a condi rev of all form was already plagued with standing still anyway, it'll just be constant moving now.

Eh i still disagree with this and it doesn’t reflect my experience playing against people in either WvW or pvp as Condi rev since HoT.  Standing still for longer than a second or two can be a death sentence in any non 1v1 encounter.  Even then in a 1v1 no one should just be standing still most of the time since, while the fields cRev produces aren’t immediately threatening, do ramp up quickly enough to do good damage if not avoided.  No one really should just stand there and let you auto them either. Watching highest level gameplay from MATs and such also shows that people aren’t just standing around when inflicted with torment, especially if they’re still being actively pressured.   While it’s kind of nice that CCs now boost your damage for a moment, it’s not going to be significant.  The ratio of time spent between being CC’d vs. moving is still going to be incredibly small. This is absolutely a massive nerf to torment damage across the board 

 

Edit: all rev CC’s besides Jade Winds and Scorchrazor are movement type CC’s; they all move the target up until the last moment. You’re looking at 1 extra second of bonus damage at best per CC if the timing works out and if the target doesn’t Breakstun and continue moving 

Edited May 1, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

In all of either cases the victim can mitigate the damage, going in any direction doesn't change much from a PvP perspective and it's clear that Anet saw that in the process.

 

There's no such AoE that could be reliably used for punishing standing still where as CC'ing into said AoE will now have more reward for the attacker rather than be denying itself damage by stopping players from moving with anything, this also include interrupting important skills.

 

I would heavily lean into the fact that I never user any skills after burst because I knew that it screws damage and when people stand still right now, there's no reason to CC outside of interrupts, with the new Torment there's a reason to keep it coming even if it's doesn't mean interrupting something important.

 

Damage is more predictable that way and with that, it's hard to say no, any fights as a condi rev of all form was already plagued with standing still anyway, it'll just be constant moving now.

They're really not the same. Confusion and Torment generally worked by punishing you for doing something you'd otherwise want to be doing. In PvP, you generally still wanted to be moving even if you had Torment, but there are times where it's possible you might decide that staying still to reduce Torment damage was worthwhile.

 

Now... it's pretty much just something that makes immobilising opponents even MORE valuable than it already was.

 

On 5/1/2021 at 5:53 AM, Janitsu.6284 said:

Kalla elite will not be worth using for the below 500 kittenmage it deals on a 1 second ICD.

Yeah, my first thought on seeing that is that they're essentially turning Soulcleave into another Razorclaw - a skill that's so finely balanced for the optimum situation that it's basically useless anywhere else.