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Ive read quite a few of your posts, and while you do make some good arguments and obviously put a lot of thought into the game, many of your arguments are flawed. When you then say things like "people

Just you wait, even after the patch with 9 out of 10 roamers running power instead of only 7 out of 10 running power like now, people will still go bUT CoNdI oP.

I'm confused about the purpose of this thread tbh.

  

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Right now, I'm trying to figure out what obscure combination of consumables, traits, and professions can lead to effectively immune to conditions.  The simplest explanation I can think of is that it gets damage + duration so low that autonomous sustain would render anything but a 10-1 condi bomb ineffective.  With the new update, we get

 

Resolution: 67% damage

Bowl of Curry Mussel Soup: 95%

Superior Rune of Hoelbrak/Stars: 90% damage, 90% duration.  

 

This brings it down to 57% damage, and all professions can get it.  Profession wise, the two lowest I can get are 41% or more on Engineer (assuming 5 boons), and either 30% or 19% on Revenant (With max Fervor and either Vengeful Hammers or Rite of the Great Dwarf Spam, but there's not enough energy for both).

 

Rev would be the closest one, but it encounters energy problems.  You can either use Mallyx to draw conditions in, or you can use Jalis for Vengeful Hammers, or you can use Jalis for Rite of the Great Dwarf.  Either way and aside from the energy, maintaining Kalla's Fervor is also going to be difficult.  

 

Personal Note: I wouldn't get too high on the math.  Mathematics is just a formal way of expressing the same thoughts and theories that words do.  It doesn't matter how good the numbers are if the premises they're based on are faulty.  

 

Hey Arachnid,

 

I won't deny this, that I'm having a little bit of fun with this guessing game thing here. But it's not in a narcissistic  way, it's more in the way that it's perhaps inspiring people to think more out of the box to solve the same problems...that there might be other ways to play then just PoP Scrapper. But ya, I know you and you are a reasonable person so if you message me I will tell you, but I'd encourage you and everyone else here who are just curious to instead think on it like it was a puzzle and try to find it on your own, because the exercise in finding it, is one that takes one out of the "box" and into a new regime of applying different solutions to the same problems.

 

Here's my stance on math right...I think it's the complete opposite. Math is not faulty at all. It's only people that are faulty that simply do the math wrong, and it's on the persons to make sure that they are doing the math correctly. I think many people's issue's in life in general involve not knowing enough math. to tackle the problems they wish to solve.

 

For example, let's talk about diminishing returns. I think most people understand the concept in a very basic sense, which I suppose most people here would summarize it as "Adding 50% + 50% get's you 75%, rather then 100%." This is correct...but also not really...because it's a huge oversimplification.. A diminishing return isn't just about percentages...it's just one of many solutions in calculus.

 

Without going into talking about curves, what you're essentially doing when talking about diminishing returns, is clamping two numbers together to define some area or volume to keep said area or volume a constant. To keep the area or volume constant, then the variables that change have to be the way in which one could parse this area or volume. So let's you have a number line between 0 and 100. To keep the total length of this line constant, you treat 100 as if it were at infinity. This allows you to parse a finite space, to measure that space with an infinite accuracy (This is how you find the length of a curve, or area of a circle).

 

If you know the above, then you realize that you can take any set of finite things, and make relations between them to keep them constant. if 0 is 0 health, and 100 is 15,000 maximum health, then you treat 100 as infinity, and all values between 0 and 15,000 can be treated as a percentage, where some number between 0-15000 lies on some space between 0 and 100. Why stop there, you can then make relations, to other relations. 

 

Just to show some application of the above. You have 50 players and we all want them to be immune to conditions. So this 50 players is what we want to make our constant, so what relation can we make here... Well  we can start with the number of players that is required to make them all immune. can 1 person make 50 players immune? Or does it take 10? maybe 20...

 

Let's say it takes 20 players doing "something" to make 50 players immune to conditions. Then what happens when you have 40 players doing it? There are new relations we can make here now, like how fast does it take. now you have a new set of points to make a relation with, which is the ratio...20/50 - 40/100. These can now be the new variables to a time constant or new constants for a time variable. if it takes 5 seconds to get the immunity in 20/50, then perhaps it ALSO takes 5 seconds for a group of 40/100. If it was 20/100 then it should take double the time of 10 seconds.

 

The idea is that, you can build relations upon relations upon relations using this method of calculus, and there truly are no limits as to what relations you can make so long as you are maintaining the things that are constant. Diminishing returns is just a specific solution expressed where all numbers (0-infinity) lay between 0 and 100, where 100 lies at infinity. 

 

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I don't care what other people think...I just want people to run it (or at least try). These builds that are "complicated" in their nature, and involve more then 5 people... if you want to actually accomplish something more then just sharing ideas, you want those ideas to be put into application.

 

The main thing not to overlook here, is that people do not know how certain mechanical and mathematical things function in this game. Many people's view points are from objectively false views or information...how this information is perpetuated is usually from intuitions. People "think" skill A is better then skill b because...that's what they think. When proposed with mathematical of mechanical evidence to the contrary, there is a resistance there because most people simply can't handle when information conflicts with their intuitions, especially when the information can potentially be very complex.

 

When I talk about really any topic on this forum, that's what i'm dealing with...the resistance for people to even try to run something because their intuitions get in the way. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to say what they want about topics and freely discuss things...but on a personal level i'm tired of that resistence, and i want things to be put into practice...

 

it's like a Chemist debating with radical Christians about Chemistry...The conversation simply doesn't go anywhere.

 

I don't disagree with your ideas. I think it's nice you're encouraging people to think but please try reading the last part of your post again out loud. It's laying it on a bit thick.

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1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

I don't disagree with your ideas. I think it's nice you're encouraging people to think but please try reading the last part of your post again out loud. It's laying it on a bit thick.

 

It sounds thick but that's exactly how it is. If you have an infinite amount of armor, then you can negate an infinite amount of damage (100% damage negation). In calculus, it's expressed "as you approach the limit..." because you can never actually reach infinite.

 

The whole premise is that, by just thinking about only these individual solutions, you exclude other possible relations you could have made. The game is designed in such a way where the number of relations aren't that complex, but there are some mechanics that do have such a complexity, in which you can make more abstract relations. If folks don't have the tools to make these relations...well...you can see how that's very limiting, no pun intended.

 

Here's another relation that most people actually know exist but haven't thought about in too much depth. This thread is about Condition Immunity right... but one can ask is there a way to have complete damage immunity?

 

Guess I'll leave that as a cliff hanger. 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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14 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Right now, I'm trying to figure out what obscure combination of consumables, traits, and professions can lead to effectively immune to conditions.  The simplest explanation I can think of is that it gets damage + duration so low that autonomous sustain would render anything but a 10-1 condi bomb ineffective.  With the new update, we get

 

Resolution: 67% damage

Bowl of Curry Mussel Soup: 95%

Superior Rune of Hoelbrak/Stars: 90% damage, 90% duration.  

 

This brings it down to 57% damage, and all professions can get it.  Profession wise, the two lowest I can get are 41% or more on Engineer (assuming 5 boons), and either 30% or 19% on Revenant (With max Fervor and either Vengeful Hammers or Rite of the Great Dwarf Spam, but there's not enough energy for both).

 

Rev would be the closest one, but it encounters energy problems.  You can either use Mallyx to draw conditions in, or you can use Jalis for Vengeful Hammers, or you can use Jalis for Rite of the Great Dwarf.  Either way and aside from the energy, maintaining Kalla's Fervor is also going to be difficult.  

 

Personal Note: I wouldn't get too high on the math.  Mathematics is just a formal way of expressing the same thoughts and theories that words do.  It doesn't matter how good the numbers are if the premises they're based on are faulty.  

 

The key is having multiple people sharing the condi reduction.  Each person in the group takes a little more off instantly until there is no more condi on them and those near them.  

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Damage reduction isn't even multiplicative.

 

I'd have to dig up where it was said. But one of the balance devs said only protection and RotGD stack multiplicatively because doing it that way is really messy on the back end. You can see this is the case because of the raid hand kiting Rev build where the hands deal 0 damage.

 

I see no reason to assume condition damage immunity is any different.

 

Resolution + dolyak stance + stars + light aura is 86% condi damage reduction. Though dolyak stance would be difficult to upkeep for extended periods of time. A core rev with the versed in stone trait would likely work better with a soulbeast available to step in when energy becomes a problem. The other consideration is breakrazors bastion which reduces condi damage by 50% for 10s, but the wiki isn't clear on if the damage reduction is contingent on the summon being available or if it is a one time buff when summoned. If it's the latter the Rev can maintain the -50% indefinitely, and resolution + light aura + glyph of stars means no condi damage.

 

Your infinity references and relational speak are coming out as gibberish. There are salient points in there but taken as a whole it... Needs work.

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1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

Your infinity references and relational speak are coming out as gibberish. There are salient points in there but taken as a whole it... Needs work.

 

Lol

 

Look you're another reasonable person. We've spoken before. You've taken calculus surely. How can you seriously debate what I said. You know that I can just link you stuff from the Wikipedia page on Integrals and it's exactly how I describe it you know that right?

 

"In mathematics, an integral assigns numbers to functions in a way that describes displacement, area, volume, and other concepts that arise by combining infinitesimal data. The process of finding integrals is called integration. Along with differentiation, integration is a fundamental, essential operation of calculus,[a] and serves as a tool to solve problems in mathematics and physics involving the area of an arbitrary shape, the length of a curve, and the volume of a solid, among others."

 

"The first documented systematic technique capable of determining integrals is the method of exhaustion of the ancient Greek astronomer Eudoxus (ca. 370 BC), which sought to find areas and volumes by breaking them up into an infinite number of divisions for which the area or volume was known.[1] This method was further developed and employed by Archimedes in the 3rd century BC and used to calculate the area of a circle, the surface area and volume of a sphere, area of an ellipse, the area under a parabola, the volume of a segment of a paraboloid of revolution, the volume of a segment of a hyperboloid of revolution, and the area of a spiral.[2]"

 

So please tell me how anything I said is gibberish and needs work?

 

If anyone wants what i said explained in greater visual detail you can just watch this video

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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18 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

Not going to try to formulate my issues at the moment while I'm stuck on phone. But it wasn't with content/factuality but rather with presentation.

 

So your gonna quarrel with me over semantics? Let's not, because that's a huge waste of time and energy.

 

20 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

And proof would simply be the hand kiter build that takes zero ddamage. An impossibility if all damage reduction was multiplicative.

 

https://youtu.be/62Dq_R5C5ng

 

See now this, this is interesting and useful.

 

Right now the current understanding is that everything is basically multiplicative with additive exceptions. So really the claim here isn't addressed. Are the exceptions these particular abilities? or is the exception as you said just protection/RotGD and armor?

 

If damage reduction was indeed additive for everything technically one could make a WvW comp where the damage reduction on the party reduces all damage to 0, by simply stacking multiplicative sources : armor, protection and maybe RoTGD spam, and then stacking additive food and dwarf passives? 

 

What about weakness, is that additive or passive? Frost Aura? 

 

Surely all of these sources exist in WvW and are part of the current meta composition and yet things don't exactly take 0 damage like in this video. So what's curious to me is why we don't actually see damage immune zergs.

 

If the above is true then 0 damage reduction is totally possible, since there's more then enough sources in the game to provide that.

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Not going to try to formulate my issues at the moment while I'm stuck on phone. But it wasn't with content/factuality but rather with presentation.

 

And proof would simply be the hand kiter build that takes zero damage. An impossibility if all damage reduction was multiplicative.

 

https://youtu.be/62Dq_R5C5ng

 

So in accordance with the claim here

 

-10% food

-10% dwarf passive

-10% frost aura

-50% Weakness (half the time)

 

this is already basically 80% damage reduction, all of which have no counter-play with the exception of weakness. Most classes also have some trait that reduces damage further, like 

 

Rev :

Close Quarters 10%, 

Demonic Resistance 10%

Determined Resolution 15% ,

Hardening Persistence up to 9%

 

Engi

Iron Blooded up to 18%

Damage Dampener 20%

 

Scourge

Blood as Sand 9%

 

So in theory it's technically possible to make a comp of at least Rev's and engi's that take 0 damage. These traits are already wildly taken so how come we don't see 0 damage reduction happening in zerg setting or am I missing something? I'm aware of order of operations, but is that really that significant when we are talking already of close to 80% reduction in damage here?

 

Again if such is the case, then in theory you  can make both a condi immune and damage immune squad with no counterplay. I mean if anything we should talk in private and combine the build ideas.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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16 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

So in accordance with the claim here

 

-10% food

-10% dwarf passive

-10% frost aura

-50% Weakness (half the time)

 

this is already basically 80% damage reduction, all of which have no counter-play with the exception of weakness. Most classes also have some trait that reduces damage further, like 

 

The math does not seems to be correct, we can't straigh up sum the different values. 

 

Those values  would result in a equivalent of a 60% damage reduction. And the more modifiers you have the less effective it is. 

 

For example from 100 damage you would end up getting 36.45. Another 10% reduction would only reduce the equivalent of a 3% from the total damage. There is dimishing returns the more multipliers there are.

 

So you see it is impossible to havea 100% immunity just with the modifiers. The max you can reach is a 75% condition duration reduction. 

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10 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The math does not seems to be correct, we can't straigh up sum the different values. 

 

Those values  would result in a equivalent of a 60% damage reduction. And the more modifiers you have the less effective it is. 

 

For example from 100 damage you would end up getting 36.45. Another 10% reduction would only reduce the equivalent of a 3% from the total damage. There is dimishing returns the more multipliers there are.

 

So you see it is impossible to havea 100% immunity just with the modifiers. The max you can reach is a 75% condition duration reduction. 

Aren't there a couple of sources that are additive? I seem to recall that Signet of Judgement stacked additively.

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9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

The builds already been tested by commanders, and works exactly as expected it would. Sorry but, just because the world works a certain way doesn't mean you have to like it. 

Well just in case you are not a troll and the irony was actually lost on you. You think of yourself as the Chemist in your picture, while proclaiming a wild thesis and refusing to give any proof of it because people need to find it on their own. That is the most Christian thing ever.

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5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The math does not seems to be correct, we can't straigh up sum the different values. 

 

Those values  would result in a equivalent of a 60% damage reduction. And the more modifiers you have the less effective it is. 

 

For example from 100 damage you would end up getting 36.45. Another 10% reduction would only reduce the equivalent of a 3% from the total damage. There is dimishing returns the more multipliers there are.

 

So you see it is impossible to havea 100% immunity just with the modifiers. The max you can reach is a 75% condition duration reduction. 

 

This is based on what God said about damage reduction being additive. According to his claim, and the video he showed, then those mechanics listed are additive, and in theory it's possible to stack to 100% damage reduction.

 

"The max you can reach is a 75% condition duration reduction. "

 

See now your just getting confused. Condition duration reduction is KNOWN to be additive. Damage reduction is not known to be additive, and God earlier said that it is, and this itself is a surprising claim. If he would chime into this conversation that would be nice. Please read the above thread more carefully otherwise you'll get confused on what's being said here.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The math does not seems to be correct, we can't straigh up sum the different values. 

 

Those values  would result in a equivalent of a 60% damage reduction. And the more modifiers you have the less effective it is. 

 

For example from 100 damage you would end up getting 36.45. Another 10% reduction would only reduce the equivalent of a 3% from the total damage. There is dimishing returns the more multipliers there are.

 

So you see it is impossible to havea 100% immunity just with the modifiers. The max you can reach is a 75% condition duration reduction. 

Please look up the condition damage equation on the wiki beforehand.

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11 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Well just in case you are not a troll and the irony was actually lost on you. You think of yourself as the Chemist in your picture, while proclaiming a wild thesis and refusing to give any proof of it because people need to find it on their own. That is the most Christian thing ever.

 

Christians don't refuse to give proof...Christians don't actually HAVE proof. I have proof I'm just not showing it to just "anyone". I'm showing it to people who will actually use it.

 

You even have the folks here who flat out don't even understand God's claim saying "you can't simply add the numbers together because reasons" ... like dude he linked a video of literally people taking 0 damage. Clearly God's claim is not out of the question. I mean I don't get it...folks arguing about these mechanics that haven't even READ the wiki page on it in the least...let alone TEST it themselves.

 

My process went from Nikola Tesla to Edison. You proclaim all your ideas freely, people outright reject it without putting it into practice (your a crank, your a this your a that)...so you know what, imma just send the ideas to people who will actually test it and capitalize on it.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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My guess for  OP's group comp:

 

-Soulbeast:

Sharing Dolyak Stance (group -33%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance)

Using Second skin trait (self -33%) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

Pumping as much protection and resolution boon (-33%)

 

-Renegades:

Rotating Kala's healing (group -50%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Breakrazor's_Bastion)

Rotating traited Rite of the great dwarf (group -50%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rite_of_the_Great_Dwarf)

Using Righteous rebel trait (self -7%) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel

Pumping as much protection (for the rangers) and resolution (-33%)

 

-Bowl of Curry Mussel Soup (-5%)

-Maybe add a guard or someone that can spam light aura (-10%)

 

Even if most things add multiplicatively the reduction should be really strong. Kalla's heal doens't get much attention, lots of people don't even know it reduces condi dmg. Kalla's + Rite + resolution + dolyak + aura is a really strong mitigation and it can be pumped aoe for the group. The rangers also get self -33% when having protection.


The problem is that most of those rev skills are super energy demanding and healing is stationary. Probably any group would be better just stacking scrappers. Not only they remove condis, but turn them into boons. Converting a debuff into a buff is better than just negating a debuff. 

 

Edited by xDudisx.5914
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1 hour ago, xDudisx.5914 said:

My guess for  OP's group comp:

 

-Soulbeast:

Sharing Dolyak Stance (group -33%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance)

Using Second skin trait (self -33%) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Second_Skin

Pumping as much protection and resolution boon (-33%)

 

-Renegades:

Rotating Kala's healing (group -50%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Breakrazor's_Bastion)

Rotating traited Rite of the great dwarf (group -50%) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rite_of_the_Great_Dwarf)

Using Righteous rebel trait (self -7%) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel

Pumping as much protection (for the rangers) and resolution (-33%)

 

-Bowl of Curry Mussel Soup (-5%)

-Maybe add a guard or someone that can spam light aura (-10%)

 

Even if most things add multiplicatively the reduction should be really strong. Kalla's heal doens't get much attention, lots of people don't even know it reduces condi dmg. Kalla's + Rite + resolution + dolyak + aura is a really strong mitigation and it can be pumped aoe for the group. The rangers also get self -33% when having protection.


The problem is that most of those rev skills are super energy demanding and healing is stationary. Probably any group would be better just stacking scrappers. Not only they remove condis, but turn them into boons. Converting a debuff into a buff is better than just negating a debuff. 

 

 

Good try but naa 😛

 

It's really much more simple. It's the interaction itself that is complicated. In fact just a little hint, you don't even need to press any buttons. you just need to have the right setup.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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4 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

why are some people saying this change will make conditions less impactful - it's the opposite - instead of 100% condi dmg reduction (resistance), it'll only be 33% reduction.

 

modulo PoP engineers ofc... but even still, i would expect overall condi dmg impact to go up, not down.  

All depends on their access to it, but true there are some builds out there that are already basicly condi immune. This change should actually make them far less immune. 

Met a condi rev yesterday that had basicly 90% uptime on resistance, so much healing and so much damage that even 5+ people had issues bringing him down simply on sustain alone. It was a nasty build even for them. On my condi build I could literally not touch him. I did no damage whatsoever. And of course he was paired with an equally immune condi weaver. Both good players sure but you instantly notice just how strong those builds are.

 

This change should actually help me ALOT against that... in theory. But if it reduces viability of the average encounter that's a wider problem which makes specific ones irrelevant anyway.

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