May 11 - Theorycrafting and Discussion

[saerni.2584]

My thoughts on the upcoming changes.

Buffs:

– Deadly Ambush (formerly Bewildering Ambush): Changed from Confusion to Bleed on Steal, with a 25% damage bonus to Bleed. With this change, Trickery can (optionally) be viewed as providing a complement to the Poison enhancements of Deadly Arts. Pairing Preparedness with Deadly Ambush produces longer lasting and stronger bleed damage.
– Preparedness: Increase of 150 expertise (assuming retains the bonus 3 initiative) will add 10% to condition duration. With this change, Trickery now provides inherent flexibility/benefits for condition builds while also being at least somewhat beneficial to power builds in terms of control condition duration.
– Trick Shot/Surprise Shot/Malicious Surprise Shot/Choking Gas: Swaps a power damage boost to poisoned foes on Trick Shot for Bleed. Adds Bleed to both Stealth Attacks. Normalizes the poison duration on Choking Gas to 3 seconds in all game modes. Overall a return of some damage to a weapon that has had repeated nerfs to utility but with a focus/reorientation on conditions rather than power.
– Wild Strike: Adds a short duration bleed. Overall a minor buff that may nonetheless improve the damage output of hybrid dagger thief builds, which may be significant when paired with Death Blossom + Deadly Ambition damage rotation.
– Improvisation: Reduced cooldown will impact certain niche situations where Steal/Swipe/Mark comes off cooldown faster than Improvisation. A unambiguous buff to making the trait work as intended more often.

Mixed/Nerfs:

– Binding Shadow: Will reveal a thief who uses Binding Shadow in Stealth. Also has a reduced aftercast from 0.25 seconds to 0.08 seconds. Binding Shadow is clearly being made more dodge friendly while also retaining its power if you can land it. Against in unsuspecting foe you will BS+Stealth and Stealth Attack as normal. An aware opponent will need to be rooted first and then BS'd. Alternative will be to Stealth approach, Binding Shadow and Shadow Meld for an opening similar to before but burning a charge off Shadow Meld (not optimal but achieves the same kind of Stealth Attack and Binding Shadow combo that people died to before at greater cost.
– Torment: Torment Damage will now produce maximum damage on immobile targets and reduced damage on moving targets. This will have the effect of significantly reducing the damage on moving targets, while making enemies that can be locked down with immobilize extremely susceptible to taking full damage unless using a cleanse or Resolution. Torment has been traditionally used, in a player vs player context, to punish players for being mobile without cleanse. This change was clearly intended both to make torment more viable against NPCs that stand still (especially bosses) while also addressing the asymmetry that players inflicted repeatedly with large amounts of torment faced in a game where staying mobile is key to avoiding future damage. Players may, therefore, tend to take less overall damage because they will be completely free to move to avoid taking additional hits. However, as a practical matter, players will probably take a similar amount of damage in most scenarios because opponents will optimize their torment application in situations where they can immobilize or disable to achieve maximum damage output and because players, generally, tend to cleanse quickly and repeatedly during the course of a fight. With frequent cleanse, even before these changes, most players using torment didn't see full damage in most situations. This change will, however, effectively make torment into a “spike condition” similar to Confusion if not somewhat more controllable for both sides.
 

[Zacchary.6183]

Yaaasssss this will go very well with my precious Ebola.

[Jumpel.3972]

1 hour ago, saerni.2584 said:

Preparedness: Increase of 150 expertise (assuming retains the bonus 3 initiative)

It's not clear if it's an add or areplacement 🤔

 

With those change I belive the next spec will be focus on condi

[saerni.2584]

1 hour ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

It's not clear if it's an add or areplacement 🤔

 

With those change I belive the next spec will be focus on condi

I'm about 90% sure it's in addition. Just because gutting the initiative increase would be a significant change to thief in general, and would be worth specifically noting. 

[Infusion.7149]

I'm pretty sure even if it will be viable to run a condi thief it will not be chart topping or requested. Bleeding just isn't amazing ; burning on firebrands will remain dominant probably along with confusion when it procs often.

However, the detonate plasma change was baffling without having quickness on bountiful theft or some other trickery trait. If it's only 5 targets there's very little reason to invest into something that is usable on a few bosses in the game and pretty much irrelevant everywhere.
 

[Cynz.9437]

"Detonate Plasma (Stolen Skill): Reduced maximum targets from 10 to 5. " - no place for thief in raids anymore, neither my static nor the guilds i raid with will be bringing one now. And yes, every class is better dps wise in raids. Because they also bring utility and usually bring better damage (not to mention, mirage just left everyone behind as far as dps goes) .

 

"Notably, we’re also reducing the maximum targets of the stolen skill Detonate Plasma, which affects thief boon-build compositions in a few specific raid encounters. Now that we’ve added additional sources of quickness to the Scrapper specialization, we believe it is the appropriate time to also bring the thief boon-build role in these encounters down to match, providing boons including quickness for half of the raid squad. This will allow for less squad role shuffling in these encounters—if a squad still chooses to utilize a thief boon build, they will only replace one quickness provider"

I honestly can't believe that they went this low and actually used this kind of explanation. So cheap i am speechless. They didn't even think about at least adding detonate plasma to every boss. Why should i even bother brining a thief when i am better off with a mesmer? Guess time to uninstall.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Carnifex.3275]

Am i reading this right? 

"Thief has had some of the least build diversity in PvE gameplay for a while now, and it’s overdue for some improvement... Notably, we’re also reducing the maximum targets of the stolen skill Detonate Plasma, which affects thief boon-build compositions in a few specific raid encounters. Now that we’ve added additional sources of quickness to the Scrapper specialization.."

Detonate Plasma (Stolen Skill): Reduced maximum targets from 10 to 5.

So .. basically .. it has least build diversity but let's further nerf that diversity? I thought at first maybe they added some quickness for us but i read it wrong. It's about scrapper. We weren't added anything just further nerfed. How does this logic work i dont understand. Not like many people play thief as a boon class anyway but i just cannot find any logic behind this nerf and their statement.

This one is good too: "While we are happy with the current build diversity available to guardians—and we are working to extend that same diversity to other professions"

Well i actually cant wait when thief will be able to heal or provide boons since it's not really good at damage dealing either. But i just can't find any connection between what they're saying and what they're doing so far. Thief will still be a damage dealer. Will spam dodge and #1+#2 Staff skill and won't be in the top DPS charts anyway. Hopefully someday we'll see that diversity that they're talking about. Cya at the next patch. Hopefully other patch will make me want to login. Cheers.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Dave.6819

[Yasai.3549]

With changes to Torment, Condi Thief will be an absolute monster.

 

Steal + P/D 3 > Pistol 2 spam

 

This will kill anyone with low Condi cleanse rotation.

[saerni.2584]

45 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

With changes to Torment, Condi Thief will be an absolute monster.

 

Steal + P/D 3 > Pistol 2 spam

 

This will kill anyone with low Condi cleanse rotation.

It also will make high expertise builds much more helpful for immobilize duration.

[Dadnir.5038]

On 5/1/2021 at 1:35 AM, saerni.2584 said:

– Preparedness: Increase of 150 expertise (assuming retains the bonus 3 initiative) will add 10% to condition duration. With this change, Trickery now provides inherent flexibility/benefits for condition builds while also being at least somewhat beneficial to power builds in terms of control condition duration.

 

Better bet on the loss of the 3 point of initiative otherwise they would have phrased the change:

"Preparedness: This trait now also increases expertise by 150."

[FelsPinguin.5902]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:41 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

With changes to Torment, Condi Thief will be an absolute monster.

 

Steal + P/D 3 > Pistol 2 spam

 

This will kill anyone with low Condi cleanse rotation.

With 4 Initiative for each skill you will only be able to get out 2 bola shots. Amounting to an astonishing 2 stacks of torment for 6 seconds and 3 seconds immobilize for 12 initiative in total. I guess repeater with 25% more damage on bleeds will be the better choice.

Edited May 3, 2021 by FelsPinguin.5902

[aspirine.6852]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:41 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

With changes to Torment, Condi Thief will be an absolute monster.

 

Steal + P/D 3 > Pistol 2 spam

 

This will kill anyone with low Condi cleanse rotation.

Yay, even more aids thiefs.. Cant wait.

[saerni.2584]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:03 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Better bet on the loss of the 3 point of initiative otherwise they would have phrased the change:

"Preparedness: This trait now also increases expertise by 150."

I'm just basing this on their history of writing correct/clear patch notes. 
 

But we will see soon enough...

[Bugabuga.9721]

On 5/1/2021 at 5:59 AM, Cynz.9437 said:

"Detonate Plasma (Stolen Skill): Reduced maximum targets from 10 to 5. " - no place for thief in raids anymore, neither my static nor the guilds i raid with will be bringing one now. And yes, every class is better dps wise in raids. Because they also bring utility and usually bring better damage (not to mention, mirage just left everyone behind as far as dps goes) .

 

"Notably, we’re also reducing the maximum targets of the stolen skill Detonate Plasma, which affects thief boon-build compositions in a few specific raid encounters. Now that we’ve added additional sources of quickness to the Scrapper specialization, we believe it is the appropriate time to also bring the thief boon-build role in these encounters down to match, providing boons including quickness for half of the raid squad. This will allow for less squad role shuffling in these encounters—if a squad still chooses to utilize a thief boon build, they will only replace one quickness provider"

I honestly can't believe that they went this low and actually used this kind of explanation. So cheap i am speechless. They didn't even think about at least adding detonate plasma to every boss. Why should i even bother brining a thief when i am better off with a mesmer? Guess time to uninstall.

 

Between team "We Want More Thief Build Variety" and team "WE HATE ALL BOONS NERF NOW" the second team won. So support thief won't be a thing any more because having _two_ of them is, well, not smart. Healing is not that great and DPS is low.

 

We'll just get swarmed with condi venom deadeyes doing 43k DPS with allies :) All while people will continue complaining about 30k condi firebrands ;)

[Khlori.6209]

Not really want to start new topic and I was slacking it off for long enough, but here's opinion from someone who actually plays d/d condi thief in pve.

 

Previous buffs were really nice, hitting more targets with Death Blossom and more dmg from Thousand Needles is 👌

 

 

In short, these are dumb and I'm pissed that Anet keeps on pushing Bleeding instead of making Poison more available (gotta change my build...), but always something.

 

In "long"...

-Bleed on Wildstrike: Placebo buff, in raids d/d condi thief barely has time to basic attack between Death Blossom and Dodging with Lotus Training, but always something for times when you do actually press 1 or just in open world. It's nice. 

 

-Shortbow changes: Ehh, who gives a kitten, I doubt anybody's gonna use it for more than escaping or siegeing in wvw.

 

-Cdr of Improvisation: Like anyone is gonna use it as long as it's between Potent Poision and Executioner, and random reset of 1 utility skill can apply to only one you didn't use yet. (Rng is cruel mistress)

 

-Expertise on Preparedness: Free stats, ain't complaining.

 

-Deadly Ambush: It's going to be a must for pure dps builds, unfortunately. On it's own it's gonna be pretty good, but you already can see people not pleased with changing Confusion to Bleed.

I'm unhappy because now I'll have to take this instead of Sleight of Hand. Daze for breakbars + 20% Steal cdr is a huge loss, considering Steal with Trickery restores Initiative + applies huge poison damage from Deadly Arts.

Wish they could maybe split effects between other traits, maybe Bleed on steal would go to Kleptomaniac or Trickster per example.

Or just totally replace Pressure Striking, is anybody even using that? (since it works on enemies with breakbar only)

 

 

What I wish they would do:

-Make Havoc Specialist increase condi damage too becasue for some reason it doesn't.

-Superspeed no longer increase distance traveled by Death Blossom: Why buff that thief can't apply on their own has affect on their ability, not to mention landing 2 yards further because of it can kill you. 

 

Like why, can someone explain these two phenomenons to me? 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Khlori.6209

[itspomf.9523]

What's funny is that Torment in PvE preventing the player from moving as freely was the kind of shutdown logic we saw all over the place in GW1, and made sense.  You either burned a heal to get through it, or mitigated it.

 

Now it just means that instead of kiting an enemy about, we stand still with it and hope it doesn't have Torment instead (and thus force us to keep moving to get the lower damage ping).

[saerni.2584]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Fire Attunement.9835

 

I've gotten a few people reaching out—even in game—with concerns that Preparedness will no longer increase Initiative after May 11. Can you, or someone on the balance team, confirm whether or not this trait retains its original functionality as well as the 150 expertise?

 

Edit: I'd add that, if indeed the balance team is cutting the Initiative gain from Trickery, that change would be a significant nerf to Thief as a whole. Players have long considered Trickery a mandatory trait line because of the extra initiative associated with taking it. Many weapon skills have high initiative cost and thieves rely on having the larger initiative pool to be able to use those skills reliably. 
 

My initial reaction was not concern because there was a strong feeling thief was "in a good place" and that "condi thief needed to be buffed." But, since it never hurts to ask for clarification, I decided to ask.

Edited May 4, 2021 by saerni.2584

[FelsPinguin.5902]

If Preparedness loses the extra initiative, then the nerf on infiltrator's Arrow (8 iniative cost in wvw and PvP) is even more impactful, making movement with shortbow useless.

[saerni.2584]

16 hours ago, FelsPinguin.5902 said:

If Preparedness loses the extra initiative, then the nerf on infiltrator's Arrow (8 iniative cost in wvw and PvP) is even more impactful, making movement with shortbow useless.

 

We have confirmation that we are keeping the Initiative gain.

[kash.9213]

55 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

 

We have confirmation that we are keeping the Initiative gain.

I was quietly hoping that would become baseline. The DE and DrD builds with an Initiative feedback loop need too much management that the action in some game modes doesn't make easy. That's good to know though.

[Sifu.9745]

Finally, a non pistol condi Thief is back i guess. Dmg buffs on d/d AND SB ... Not bad at all. If only you can do something with Heartseeker (Dagger #2), making it not 100% power damaging ability ... It's only used as gap closer for condi builds and some poor dmg option if you play a hybrid builds with power and condi stats, such as Viper's or Carrion.

[Telgum.6071]

Quote

• Preparedness: This trait now increases expertise by 150.

So is the extra 3 initiative being removed?

 

EDIT Nevermind I just saw it now. I wouldn't even bother with thief in wvw anymore if they remove it...

Edited May 7, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[lare.5129]

My thoughts on the upcoming changes - nothing changes. Still not possible continues apply tonns of condition

[ASP.8093]

Feel free to crucify me for this, but I feel like thief is the class that least needs viable condi builds.

 

I'd have liked more attention paid to giving power melee builds a role in the top-end raid and fractal meta (right now, they're actually hard-nerfing one of their main — already really "situational," in the sense that you literally need the boss to give you a specific item — supportive builds instead, with the justification that maybe now you'll play 2 of them in those encounters).

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

Feel free to crucify me for this, but I feel like thief is the class that least needs viable condi builds.

 

I'd have liked more attention paid to giving power melee builds a role in the top-end raid and fractal meta (right now, they're actually hard-nerfing one of their main — already really "situational," in the sense that you literally need the boss to give you a specific item — supportive builds instead, with the justification that maybe now you'll play 2 of them in those encounters).

Well boon thief is unplayable in most of the game and after nerfs to 5 man it will not be hugely popular with any players that aren't already geared for it. They could have made Bountiful Theft give quickness in PvE such that the gearing would actually be semi-worthwhile for people wanting to play something different from chrono+firebrand for quickness, but instead quickness was given to scrapper.

Yes staff daredevil could be given a small amount more damage, but it is simple to play and most other power DPS will be shaved in the patch.

Condi thief while yet to be seen has a tough road ahead of it for it to be accepted where condi is normally favored such as Sunqua Peak, Soulless Horror , Twin Largos (I don't think anything other than chrono or mirage confusion is going to be widely adopted). I guess it will be taken on Matthias due to strong cc potential but that's also where people use boon thief.