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Legendary Demon Stance Unplayable after patch?


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So what we are just going to loose access to a button, which happens to be our stun break, or just let ourselves die to all the conditions we take on with no way to cleanse or resist them? Am I reading the changes wrong or did they just forget the part where we put on Resolution with or instead of Resistance?

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Yes pain absorption is one of the worst skills in the game after the patch. Mallyx now lacks any significant ways to manage damaging conditions, which was the entire point of Mallyx in the first place. Condi Rev in WvW and pvp now has all the same weaknesses as Power Rev with lower mobility and lower damage.  

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They kinda forgot about Legendary Deamon... It's designed to absorb conditions protected by resistence and eventually transfer them to enemies, but with no resistence effect in pvp/wvw it looks like a suicide.

 

They have to change something, maybe a trait in corruption that makes resistence reduce condition damage taken by a lot, like 50%.

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5 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Its hinted a in patch notes about renegade lacking in power dps in the endgame pve.

Whole patch was basically pve oriented

I found that a bit funny, considering it already out dps herald. It is like Anet saying, we know there are no viable rev power builds in pve and we don’t give a kitten.

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10 hours ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

Mallyx will be immensely stronger in PvE settings so it's a buff in my eyes :classic_ninja:

The change to resistance will still hurt it a lot in any group content where players are being hit with hard CC alongside receiving damaging conditions. Using your stunbreak while in Mallyx is basically going to pull a pile of conditions on top of you, which could easily result in "darned if you do darned if you don't" situations.

 

Changing Resistance really needed to come with a substantial rework to Mallyx (again). Boonsmiting it out of PvP might have been somewhat deliberate, but post-patch I probably wouldn't advise using Mallyx in any content where you're likely to have allies receiving conditions.  

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Posted (edited)

This patch makes Mallyx in PvP/WvW kinda unplayable, through the mentioned condi  pulls without resistance. 

 

They would need to make something like "Demonic Resistance" able to reduce condition damage instead of power damage. (like 15-33%). Mallyx , Resistance and the whole Corruption Traitline dont need "Power damage reduction" ,only something to help taking condis onto you.  Thats the whole point of the Mallyx-Playstyle, also called as "Anti-Condi-Unit"

Edited by Virdo.1540
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It's a bigger stretch than Elastigirl covering a city but...

 

It's possible we can face tank said conditions now. Retribution line gives very high uptime on Resolution (retal) with the duration of resolution/retal on elite skill use (adept trait) going from 3-6s baseline, plus resolution on dodge from the master tier trait and from the Renegade traitline, combined with Renegade GM Righteous Rebel that gives us a free 35% condition damage reduction, along with skills like the Kalla heal, vengful hammers, and RotGD (w/ the gm trait).

 

It requires a lot to get it, but we might be ok at least with very specific builds...which is depressing.

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Posted (edited)

If they dont change it, they killed such a fun build for pvp. That would be really strange if Anet let Mallyx die in pvp. I just dont understand. Maybe it is finally time to uninstall, I think many will follow if they going on with this things...

Edited by haenz.9578
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Posted (edited)

Small-scale WvW perspective.

 

Condi Ren main here. Just l2p and stop crutching on the f2 transfer and passive invulns. Demon is fine. This patch so far made me overjoyed.

 

Tho tbf the demons skills really should do both resolute and resistance (as should most skills that currently do resistance ig), I'll live either way tho. Pain Abso could use a cost reduction to be once again, kinda whatever. 

 

On 5/1/2021 at 11:16 AM, Xunleashed.5271 said:

They kinda forgot about Legendary Deamon... It's designed to absorb conditions protected by resistence and eventually transfer them to enemies, but with no resistence effect in pvp/wvw it looks like a suicide.

 

They have to change something, maybe a trait in corruption that makes resistence reduce condition damage taken by a lot, like 50%.

Extremely small part of Mallyx that led to most of the problems with it. This fixes the condi Rev issues without killing the healthy designed parts that actually makes it work in WvW (EtD+Torment Runes).

 

Overall banish enchantment could still use a nerf though (or more importantly a redesign of abysmal chill).

 

EDIT: Just saw Resolute got added to Pain Absorption, completely fine then.

Edited by lodjur.1284
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Posted (edited)

I mean how was the resistance really a problem in PvP at least? The necro can transform them into alteration, ditto the mesmer who can remove them and is not especially complaining about his alteration gameplay, the thief is already very strong and a bit too much for my taste, the engineer has nothing to envy him. The hunter has the help of his farts which make him block a lot, the warrior can remove buffs with his bubble and also has immunity on alteration and the guardian has a lot of blockingand the elementalist between buffs and alteration and his various skills to not get hit. 

 

Even without all this the energy cost was already high on the skills that could use it and there was a 5 second CD to not be spammed like crazy, it just made the F2 useful.

 

It's supposed to be for the expansion, is the goal to make the specializations useless to buy the expansion?

Edited by Angesombre.4630
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18 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Extremely small part of Mallyx that led to most of the problems with it.

 

With this change that skill simply can not be used in many situations without killing the user near instantaneously. The pay-off won't be worth the significant risk even when you manage to pull it off without dying. I would say that having an utility skill that has to be actively avoided and that you can not switch out for something else is pretty bad.

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1 hour ago, ewenness.6482 said:

 

With this change that skill simply can not be used in many situations without killing the user near instantaneously. The pay-off won't be worth the significant risk even when you manage to pull it off without dying. I would say that having an utility skill that has to be actively avoided and that you can not switch out for something else is pretty bad.

It has it's uses, they're just more limited. If you cant think of them, that's a you problem. It should probably get it's cost shaved down to 20-25 tho.

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

It has it's uses, they're just more limited. If you cant think of them, that's a you problem. It should probably get it's cost shaved down to 20-25 tho.

 

I'm fairly sure everyone can think of alternative uses. The issue is more that Mallyx was the only legend granting condition focused utilities to revenants and heralds. The changing of retaliation and the nerf to the revenant's ability to dish out torment are going to make Mallyx feel like a waste of a legend slot outside of open world content and push even more revenants and heralds into playing renegade.

 

I don't want to keep the skill in its current form (because it really is too easy to exploit) but the new design doesn't really cut it either. Maybe just keep it as a stun break at the same cost and throw in five stacks of might on top as a consolation prize. Don't make it pull conditions from allies. With the changes going ahead it will just become a worse version of Riposting Shadows anyway. 

Edited by ewenness.6482
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Just now, ewenness.6482 said:

 

I'm fairly sure everyone can think of alternative uses. The issue is more that Mallyx was the only legend granting condition focused utilities to revenants and heralds. The changing of retaliation and the nerf to the revenant's ability to dish out torment are going to make Mallyx feel like a waste of a legend slot outside of open world content and push even more revenants and heralds into playing renegade.

 

I don't want to keep the skill in its current form (because it really is too easy to exploit) but the new design doesn't really cut it either. Maybe just keep it as a stun break as the same cost and throw in five stacks of might on top as a consolation prize. Don't make it pull conditions from allies. With the changes going ahead it will just become a worse version of Riposting Shadows anyway. 

It doesn't sound so from the people on this forum.

 

Mallyx dishes out exactly the same amount of torment post patch as it does pre-patch. In PvE there's a minor duration nerf to EtD, no changes to rest of mallyx's torment access. But in WvW (where resistance was a major problem) the amount of torment so far stays the same. 

 

However the torment will potentially overall deal a bit less damage, when looking at in our group (that uses at least 1 condi renegade), we've concluded that at worst it's probably a 5-10% overall dmg reduction to the build, which is something one can live with. But it has some upsides and downsides, torment will now deal double damage when cleaving, which is very very nice and a weakspot for condi revenant. It will also be more effective while you're CCing the enemy, which is quite common during the periods where one has a lot of stacks on them. Downside is ofc that it does less damage to enemies that move, which are already the harder ones to kill. 

 

In WvW (and sPvP afaik, but havent played it in forever so could be wrong), a very large majority of condi revenants are Condi Heralds, mostly to abuse how absurdly broken True Nature - Demon is (and because herald is essentially easy mode revenant).

 

If you just wanna stunbreak, without pulling condis, you can just self-cancel the skill with stow weapon.

 

I wouldn't mind a complete redesign of it, but such a rework has to not in any way, shape or form involve "old resistance". It also could def use a cost reduction in it's current state. However, Condi Revenant is far from dead (in WvW) and Mallyx is still gonna be the stance that allows it to work. There simply is no other actual condi stance, kalla does low amounts of bleeding only on a long CD (and is getting nerfed far harder than Mallyx anyway) and the rest of the stances really have no damaging conditions.

 

Overall both Banish Enchantment (or at least Abyssal Chill) and Pain Absorption are poorly designed and could use reworks, I doubt that's gonna happen anytime soon tho.

 

Since Mallyx gets to keep torment runes and Embrace the Darkness + Low Cooldowns on Weapon Skills, the build is very much alive, it just requires more skill than before, which is not a bad thing as the high resistance uptime did make it too forgiving in certain situations (and the herald version was ofc too forgiving in every situation)

 

More Condi Core Revenants and Condi Renegades would be a very positive result of these changes, as both are rather rare (in WvW). I very much doubt it as they are both several magnitudes harder to play than Condi Herald (especially condi herald in it's current state which is True Nature - Demon + A bunch of invulns).

 

In PvE Pain Absorption is ofc just as useless as it was pre-patch (slightly worse), since there is essentially no condi dmg and mallyx as a support stance isn't really a thing there.

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17 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I mean how was the resistance really a problem in PvP at least? The necro can transform them into alteration, ditto the mesmer who can remove them and is not especially complaining about his alteration gameplay, the thief is already very strong and a bit too much for my taste, the engineer has nothing to envy him. The hunter has the help of his farts which make him block a lot, the warrior can remove buffs with his bubble and also has immunity on alteration and the guardian has a lot of blockingand the elementalist between buffs and alteration and his various skills to not get hit. 

 

Even without all this the energy cost was already high on the skills that could use it and there was a 5 second CD to not be spammed like crazy, it just made the F2 useful.

 

It's supposed to be for the expansion, is the goal to make the specializations useless to buy the expansion?

no condi build could harm condi herald unless you have a necro specifically there to corrupt resistance constantly.

condi herald was made meta first to hard counter condi thief, condi thief could literally do nothing to it.

 

resistance mechanic is bad as its either you dont have enough u die too fast or you have enough and could never die to condi build except necro in 1v1.

for chaining double blocks and condi cleanse with shield staff etc, but if you nerf these you nerf rest of the class so..

 

 

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4 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

If you just wanna stunbreak, without pulling condis, you can just self-cancel the skill with stow weapon.

 

That's actually brilliant. Didn't consider it despite being used to animation cancelling from ESO.

 

6 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

I wouldn't mind a complete redesign of it, but such a rework has to not in any way, shape or form involve "old resistance". It also could def use a cost reduction in it's current state.

 

Completely agree with this. A redesign of Mallyx would be very welcome but I know big overhauls are usually reserved for expansions. I like Kalla but unfortunately she isn't as strong for condition as Mallyx. Her utility skills are also meh in WvW as the warband members can be chain crowd controlled and killed before getting anything done.

 

13 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

More Condi Core Revenants and Condi Renegades would be a very positive result of these changes, as both are rather rare (in WvW).

 

I might just have had a really skewed experience as I keep seeing both a lot of condition heralds and a lot of condition renegades (not so much base revenants) in WvW and have chalked it up to the condition bomb reverse uno card tactic being popular.

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1 minute ago, ewenness.6482 said:

 

That's actually brilliant. Didn't consider it despite being used to animation cancelling from ESO.

I mean I doubt I will personally ever really use it, as I don't stunbreak a whole lot as it's usually a waste of energy, but it's a nice option to have.

1 minute ago, ewenness.6482 said:

Completely agree with this. A redesign of Mallyx would be very welcome but I know big overhauls are usually reserved for expansions. I like Kalla but unfortunately she isn't as strong for condition as Mallyx. Her utility skills are also meh in WvW as the warband members can be chain crowd controlled and killed before getting anything done.

 

I wouldn't even say all of Mallyx, I love the current version of Embrace the Darkness, and if we're to have a game with such absurd amounts of CC, call to anguish is quite nice to use (I would only welcome a redesign of this, if it was part of a "lets lower CC gamewide" kind of thing). 

 

Banish is a large part of what "enables" easy mode and unhealthy spammy gameplay on Mallyx overall ye.

 

Kalla was quite strong smallscale, where even getting 2 pulses of darkrazor is good and soulcleave was great. Now soulcleave is ofc completely deleted from the game, so kalla will suck.

 

1 minute ago, ewenness.6482 said:

I might just have had a really skewed experience as I keep seeing both a lot of condition heralds and a lot of condition renegades (not so much base revenants) in WvW and have chalked it up to the condition bomb reverse uno card tactic being popular.

At least imo herald is a lot more popular due to a few reasons.

 

It is much much easier than the other version. Dragon heal is busted and a massive crutch.

 

True Nature - Demon together with resistance has enabled a very unhealthy playstyle of Pain Absorption spam and hitting True Nature - Demon to instagib your surroundings, this build is the one hit the hardest by the changes and currently the build that I think is by far the most problematic build in all of WvW, since beyond playing power (and noone in the group playing condi), there is more or less no counterplay to this. (Especially as True Nature - Demon is bugged (completely unavoidable outside of proper invulns like Renewed Focus, evades don't work) and in my opinion anyone using the skill has been bug abusing)

 

Core Rev overall is more of a solo build (in my opinion) as mostly what it gains over renegade is better sustain (since Renegade has quite poor sustain overall). 

 

Condi Renegade I can honestly say I haven't seen a single other player (outside of my guild) play it even remotely "good", partially because I see so few, and partially because the ones I do see are usually quite bad.

 

Condi Renegade is also a rather difficult build to play well overall, that especially shines in outnumbered fights, which most players don't go for.

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