Jormag looks like Drakkar in GW1

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I mean why did they change it in the first place at all? They could totally say Drakkar in GW2 was the Ice Column Creature and it was indeed Jormag under the lake.

[Teratus.2859]

Tbh the only thing that new artwork did was make me depressed I'll never get to see it in the actual game 😞

I really love the Jormag design too.. a Lindwurm Dragon which is exactly what I predicted Jormag would end up being for a long time and also what I really really wanted it to be as well.

Man I wish we'd gotten to see it fully rendered in game, would have looked amazing.
 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Tbh the only thing that new artwork did was make me depressed I'll never get to see it in the actual game 😞

I really love the Jormag design too.. a Lindwurm Dragon which is exactly what I predicted Jormag would end up being for a long time and also what I really really wanted it to be as well.

Man I wish we'd gotten to see it fully rendered in game, would have looked amazing.
 

They couldn't have even given us the full models.  Insult to kittening injury.

[Kossage.9072]

There is a plausible way to see the full models for these Elder Dragons, even if reduced in size somewhat, in the future if the writers decide to incorporate them into the story and the team gets enough resources to finish modeling the full bodies. Two of my proposals:

 

1) An extended vision of the past

 

We delve deeper into the origins of Elder Dragons and the dragonrise cycle via Jormag's cryptic line from "A Voice in the Deep" when it tried to persuade the Commander:

The Whisper of Jormag: I understand why you want to silence me, but you must listen. For Tyria's sake.

The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.

The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

The important line to take from this is "But it was not always this way." So the system wasn't always broken, and the Elder Dragons may not have always had rivalries or at least not to the extent as they have nowadays. So what was the world like when the Elder Dragons were younger and not as hostile necessarily? We know Kralkatorrik never desired a peace between mortals and dragons after witnessing a prophetic vision of his future (we know he wasn't afraid of his death, so his actions seemed to have been motivated solely by his distate of mortals and dragons living in peace), but perhaps his stance was different until Torment (which was confirmed to long predate him getting the magics of Balthazar and other dragons) began influencing him or if he witnessed some travesty caused by the mortals of hundreds of thousands of years ago?

 

Imagine us entering this vision and actually getting to see the full bodies of all the six Elder Dragons, maybe even Mother depending on if she's the Spirit of the Wild called Dragon or some physical mother to several if not all Elder Dragons, and we could get the Season 2 sylvari flashback's Firstborn council except between Elder Dragons similar to how we witnessed various Eldwyrm dragons arguing and discussing threats in their "dragon council" in DOTA: Dragon's Blood animated series:

 

 

 

Based on tweets, a few of the members of the current Narrative Team are fans of the lovely Dragon Prince animated series. Perhaps we could get a scene of hostility growing between mortals of ancient times and dragons similar to the Ziard vs. the dragon king Sol Regem scene in the Dragon Prince. I could imagine all the wonderful drama the writers could mine from such a conflict while only providing us of teasing snippets of the truth of those ancient times...

 

 

2) Meeting Elder Dragon ghosts in the Mists or in the dragon afterlife

 

The lore has yet to reveal what happens to Elder Dragon souls upon their demise if the soul isn't devoured at ground zero by another magic-eating entity (as happened with Aurene consuming Kralkatorrik). There was no one at ground zero to consume Zhaitan and Mordremoth, and it's possible that Aurene may not have been able to consume Jormag and Primordus's souls per se due to the magical hijinks and most of the magic going through her in the Dragonstorm instance. We don't know if the souls of Elder Dragons, due to their intimate ties to the All, actually enter the Mists and their racial afterlife (we know that mortal races like humans and norn have separate afterlives, so I see no reason why dragons can't have their own afterlife realm in the Mists as well), or if their souls merge with their magic and are consumed by the ley lines to return to the world so there can be no afterlife for any Elder Dragon.

 

Assuming that the writers actually explored the idea of dragons' souls actually entering the Mists, however, it would open a lot of interesting possibilities. Imagine us meeting the ghosts of Torment-less Zhaitan and Mordremoth, maybe even Jormag and Primordus (so we'd finally get their fully modeled if shrunk bodies for a ghostly encounter) in the Mists or in whatever dragon afterlife that awaits them. We know Grenth and his servants judge human souls and sends them to various god-related afterlives while Raven (and presumably Wolf based on Braham's origin story) take norn to the norn afterlife, but we don't know who or what (if any) judges the souls of asura, norn, or dragons and if there exist a Realm of Torment like of "hell" for other races' (and dragons') respective afterlives and a "paradise" for these races' more virtuous souls.

 

I imagine that if the Elder Dragons were judged for their millennia of crimes, they'd end up in their racial hell if such a place exists in lore. If not, and all dragons regardless of virtue and vice ended up in the same dragon afterlife realm in the Mists, it wouldn't change the fact that we'd still get to encounter and chat with them. Just like presented in the vision of the past option above, we'd get a glimpse of what these dragons' personalities are like when not twisted by Torment and madness. They might still be jerks (due to their non-human values after all), but they should at least be wiser and more reasonable to some extent.

 

Given how Mordremoth was in the process of taking over Trahearne completely before both were slain by Caladbolg, the writers could even nod at the HoT finale by having us encounter the merged soul of "Mordyherne", aka Trahearne's soul appearing in the dragon afterlife as a sylvari ghost body sharing both his and Mordy's consciousnesses. We could get our long awaited reunion with our dear marshal at long last (while the Knight of the Thorn storyline showed us Trahearne, that one was sadly only the memory in Caladbolg's Dream and not the real Trahearne's soul) and perhaps Trahearne could act as our "liaison" in our discussions with the Elder Dragons' ghosts due to his intimate soul connection with Mordy. It would be chilling if they used the combined Bangar/Jormag or Fraenir/Jormag vocal effect for brief moments in Mordyherne's speech by splicing Matthew Brenher (Trahearne) and Nolal North's (Mordy) voices together at key points in the discussion to show that these two are one now.

 

While Raven, and seemingly the rest of "Champions", seems to suggest that Primordus was not the brightest of individuals, we do know that he was specifically targeting the recently hatched Vlast and Aurene via vast distances which no other Elder Dragon has done. Even the Mordrem only went after Aurene when she was an egg but they never targeted Vlast, nor did any other Elder Dragon like Zhaitan (who was closer to Vlast than Primordus!). Why was Primordus so interested in Glint's scions while asleep while most Elder Dragons ignored them entirely? If Jormag's statement about the system not always being broken is true (and there's no reason to doubt Jormag as Tom Abernathy has stated that Jormag doesn't lie), it suggests that Jormag and Primordus's hostility may not have always been so intense.

 

More importantly, we know from personal story's Risen/Zhaitan connection that the Elder Dragons learn what their minions know via the hivemind; when Zhaitan corrupted order agents, it learned the locations of the orders' headquarters and the weaknesses, using it as part of its strategy. While Primordus may have corrupted the least intelligent beings due to its preference corrupting rocks (at least until we learn if deep sea dragon also prefers corrupting water over mortals), the devs didn't outright deny Primordus being able to corrupt, or even having corrupted in the distant past, mortals even if that was not his preference. The Stone Summit splinter group accidentally gave themselves to Primordus via the ritual, so their knowledge would've been forced into Primordus whether he wanted it or not. As such, even if Primordus hadn't corrupted any living being before (despite Volcanic fractal implying that he may have corrupted other living beings at some point), the dwarves' knowledge of culture, language etc. would become his. And since we already saw how destroyers were using feint attacks in Gendarran DRM to draw attention away from their true target, Primordus clearly knows basic tactics. As such, I do believe that Primordus would've learned Tyrian from the Stone Summit minds at the latest, and his past with Jormag may have been more benevolent once upon a time.

 

If this is true, then we can count Raven as a biased narrator regarding Primordus's seeming stupidity. Just like Raven states how Braham is supposedly too "dumb" to deceive the Spirits, we know from Season 1 that Braham is actually quite intelligent in a grounded layman sort of way as he actually understands Taimi's complex theories (which confused Marjory) by relating them to the echolocation of bats. So he understands things and applies them in a way that makes sense to his nature-focused norn brain. As such, I call bull on Raven's statements and that it's just Raven's superiority talking when he belittles Braham and Primordus as dumb. After all, Raven even mocks Snow Leopard during the instance, so it's not like his superiority complex only applies to non-Spirits.

 

But yeah, the story could still have us use complete Primordus and Jormag models and witness a dragon council in a vision of the past, or allowing us to meet the spirits of non-consumed dragons (i.e. everyone but Kralkatorrik who now exists within Aurene) in the dragon afterlife in the present. I would like both to become true to explore the origins of dragons and what role "Mother" played in it in the ancient/mythic past (and if Mother is indeed the Spirit of the Wild called Dragon who may have been the progenitor of the first generation of all the high and lesser dragon species in Tyria if norn and kodan beliefs are true). 🙂

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I don't get it, why did Anet even make the retcon back 10 years ago? It was pointless and added nothing other than confusion.

 

The dragon model in GW1 was so great, yet Drakkar looks nothing like it.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I don't get it, why did Anet even make the retcon back 10 years ago? It was pointless and added nothing other than confusion.

 

The dragon model in GW1 was so great, yet Drakkar looks nothing like it.

Different people running the company, different artistic visions, zero respect for previous works and lore.

[Blur.3465]

6 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The dragon model in GW1 was so great, yet Drakkar looks nothing like it.

So much this. Drakkar's model from GW1 meant a lot to me. 
I was always scared of underwater monsters, Drakkar was exactly that.
That model from GW1 was both fascinating and creepy, it made me imagine how terrible it would be if it suddenly came to life while I was standing right on top of it, swimming underneath you and eventually coming to the surface, brrr!
It's the kind of fight I have been imagining for Drakkar. Similar to Mordremoth's fight, just instead of 'big drop' it would be water with icebergs and with Drakkar swimming around, sometimes destroying the icebergs and pulling players below the surface, where freezing would kick in!

That Jormag model would've been perfect for Drakkar. 
The head itself reminds me so much of Drakkar; the Drakkar we got in GW2 is nothing like the original, it's a hairy crocodile that is just...meh 😕 

I am just so disappointment with representation of Drakkar that I can't get over it. 
A huge shame we won't get to see full model of Jormag now either. Unbelievable.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I don't get it, why did Anet even make the retcon back 10 years ago? It was pointless and added nothing other than confusion.

 

The dragon model in GW1 was so great, yet Drakkar looks nothing like it.

Drakkar was considered way too small to be an Elder Dragon, so they changed it to a minion of the Elder Dragon.

[Blur.3465]

6 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Drakkar was considered way too small to be an Elder Dragon, so they changed it to a minion of the Elder Dragon.

Even if they did, Drakkar's model is an insult and nothing like the original. There's absolutely 0 connection to the original model that all of us loved and were spooked of!

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Drakkar was considered way too small to be an Elder Dragon, so they changed it to a minion of the Elder Dragon.

The model was actually HUGE, also GW1 model doesn't have to be all accurate. It's not like Primordus was that big in GW1.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Blur.3465 said:

So much this. Drakkar's model from GW1 meant a lot to me. 
I was always scared of underwater monsters, Drakkar was exactly that.
That model from GW1 was both fascinating and creepy, it made me imagine how terrible it would be if it suddenly came to life while I was standing right on top of it, swimming underneath you and eventually coming to the surface, brrr!
It's the kind of fight I have been imagining for Drakkar. Similar to Mordremoth's fight, just instead of 'big drop' it would be water with icebergs and with Drakkar swimming around, sometimes destroying the icebergs and pulling players below the surface, where freezing would kick in!

That Jormag model would've been perfect for Drakkar. 
The head itself reminds me so much of Drakkar; the Drakkar we got in GW2 is nothing like the original, it's a hairy crocodile that is just...meh 😕 

I am just so disappointment with representation of Drakkar that I can't get over it. 
A huge shame we won't get to see full model of Jormag now either. Unbelievable.

That thing was said to be Jormag first.

[Teratus.2859]

18 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The model was actually HUGE, also GW1 model doesn't have to be all accurate. It's not like Primordus was that big in GW1.

Meanwhile Kralkatorrik was a literal mountain range xD

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Meanwhile Kralkatorrik was a literal mountain range xD

And Kralkatorrik was said to be that large.

 

Really size doesn't matter that much. Kralkatorrik was too big that you couldn't even see his full bodyshot in most of the occasion, I don't think it's even necessary.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

19 hours ago, Blur.3465 said:

Even if they did, Drakkar's model is an insult and nothing like the original. There's absolutely 0 connection to the original model that all of us loved and were spooked of!

Drakkar's GW2 model was obviously based on this creature from GW1

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ice_column_statue

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Yggranya.5201]

20 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Different people running the company, different artistic visions, zero respect for previous works and lore.

Usually when someone new gets a hold of a previously established franchise, the don't just lack respect, they go out of their way to make it different just for the sake of it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

22 minutes ago, Yggranya.5201 said:

Usually when someone new gets a hold of a previously established franchise, the don't just lack respect, they go out of their way to make it different just for the sake of it.

If they could make something really new and awesome that's good.

 

But instead they said it's not Jormag and still based on Jormag's model on it, at the same time using the Ice Column Creature for Drakkar.

[Blur.3465]

14 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Drakkar's GW2 model was obviously based on this creature from GW1

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ice_column_statue

Yep...apparently they entirely switched their places. I have no idea why they did this. 😕 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 hours ago, Blur.3465 said:

Yep...apparently they entirely switched their places. I have no idea why they did this. 😕 

Because we aren't really dealing with Arenanet, not the real one that made GW1 and whatever about GW2 thats still good, just a bunch of people inhabiting Anets corpse putting out "content" without a care about anything but the next pay check. 

 

Prove me wrong, "Arenanet".