Thief Has Too Much Blind Spam

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On NA at least, there has been this slow progression of more and more people running sheer blind spam on Thief builds.

 

This skill is the main culprit contributing to the "too much" factor: Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

The problem is that there are only 2 ways to deal with a 100% uptime cycle of Smoke Screen, Black Powder Shots, and all of the other various sources of blind that they have:

 

1. Being able to kite out of it. In WvW out in a field or if the Thief engages you in a conquest game off node, this isn't a big deal because you can kite.
2. Being on one of the few classes/builds that offers frequent resistance uptime or that has access to many frequently occurring multi-strike attacks like symbols, which can strike consecutively quickly enough that strikes will land in between blind pulses.

 

If you are not one of the few classes/builds that offers decent uptime of resistance that has access to frequent multi-strike attacks, you cannot defend nodes against these blind spam builds. This is creating an effect where Thieves are the fastest roaming +er & decap AND are able to hard counter the large majority of build structures when they get to the node, just long enough to be able to force a decap if not stay and actually win the 1v1 if the person chooses to attempt to stay and hold the node against the Thief.

 

This pretty much summarizes what's going on:

 

* Spellbreaker - Unless you tweak your entire build for massive resistance uptime and condi cleanse to deal with the blind spam Thief, your attacks are all heavy telegraphed single strikes and  you can't hit the Thief. If you do tweak for mass condi bunker, you end up losing to everything else in the game except the Thief.

* Power Herald - Gets trashed by blind spam.

* Condi Herald - It can survive the Thief's damage but it has low strike rate vs. the Thief.

* Renegade - This can actually hit the Thief due to virtue of 7Shot but I'm not too sure if the Ren is supposed to win this 1v1 on a node.

* Guardian/DH/FB - These actually have the utility they need to deal with blind spam and win the node.

* Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast - They can survive the Thief but they can't hit the Thief consistently enough to land any real pressure outside of Barrage which is a multi-strike that doesn't count    as projectile, and stray pet strikes.

* Prot Holo - This has enough frequent small cleanses to be able to more consistently hit the Thief, but I'm not so sure if the Prot Holo necessarily has a high rate of success vs. the blind spam  in the end.

* Other Thieves - Stealth blind spam wars. Fun.

* Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - Gets trashed by blind spam and Thief in general.

* Necro/Reaper/Scourge - There are usually enough utilities here to deal with the Thief. Necros get ranged channeled attacks that ignore anti-projectile hate as well as marks. Necros get fears  which push the Thief out of his pits. Necros get a lot of large AoE effects that are often multi-strike that don't require targeting to hit. Core even gets a reveal. Necros are strong to condis in    general. In a strange turnabout of things, where Thief once countered Necro, Necros are now kind of countering Thief. Well, this is true at least when it comes to decaping or winning node.    But the Thief is still dangerous to the Necro if the Thief sacrifices the node to kite and win the 1v1 in the end.

* Weaver - It has what it needs to hold vs. the Thief, but killing Thief or even just pushing it off the node isn't so easy to do with all the blind spam.

 

The blind spam is too strong and it's hard countering too many classes/builds on side nodes. This mixed with the fact that Thief is still the fastest rotation for decaps is too much. The blind spam 100% uptime cycle needs to be culled a bit. I don't have any specific suggestions at the moment, but I can say that Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is a good place to start reviewing.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Styros.8931]

blind powder from d/p build and shadow shot , thats your problem , not smoke screen 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, Styros.8931 said:

blind powder from d/p build and shadow shot , thats your problem , not smoke screen 

 

I don't care about the usual play. I mean Thief in general has a lot of blind spam but I've never had a problem with it until lately when people are figuring out how to more creatively exploit the use of Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

That skill is virtually a 7 second invuln in most situations not only for the Thief, but anyone who stands in it. It's gotten to the point that it's just too much.

[Styros.8931]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

I don't care about the usual play. I mean Thief in general has a lot of blind spam but I've never had a problem with it until lately when people are figuring out how to more creatively exploit the use of Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

That skill is virtually a 7 second invuln in most situations not only for the Thief, but anyone who stands in it. It's gotten to the point that it's just too much.

you understand CD is 45 sec in pvp and you literally can move out from it in same sec  , because most of theefs fight melee ?  As I said already, your problem is black powder and shadow shot from D/P , because all clowns thiefs use this weapon set 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Styros.8931

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just now, Styros.8931 said:

you understand CD is 45 sec in pvp and you literally can move out from it in same sec  , because most of theefs fight melee ? 

 

45s with 20% reduction is a 36s CD. And that is plenty of a short CD for being able to rotate around and get decaps out from under someone with a single use of Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

The pits are too big, they cover the entire node. When you kite out of the pit you lose the node while the Thief defensively stands in his pit. You can't enter that with him if you want to win so the skill is virtually as good as a decap CC like Scourge AoE Fear or Ranger LB 4. The only types of builds that are brawly enough to stand in that and take hits while still holding the node is something like Condi Herald, which is tanky and has a skill where he heals when he takes damage. Most classes cannot counter play in the blind pits like this. If you want to kite away from these pits for a chance to survive and hit the Thief, you don't get much time to actually stand on and hold the node. They ride you with 100% blind uptime. It's too much.

 

Again, it's fine in wvw or off node. The problem is the dynamic & chemistry that the blind spam offers Thieves for decap and hold nodes in a small radius. It's too loaded right now man.

[Styros.8931]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

45s with 20% reduction is a 36s CD. And that is plenty of a short CD for being able to rotate around and get decaps out from under someone with a single use of Smoke Screen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

 

36 only if you take useless node in shadow arts . I really don't want to repeat my own words and still , thats doesn't change anything 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Styros.8931

[Styros.8931]

4 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Most classes cannot counter play in the blind pits like this. If you want to kite away from these pits for a chance to survive and hit the Thief, you don't get much time to actually stand on and hold the node. They ride you with 100% blind uptime. It's too much.

 

funny guy 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, Styros.8931 said:

36 only if you take useless node in shadow arts . I really don't want to repeat my own words and still , thats doesn't change anything 

 

You don't need to. Nothing you're going to say is going to convince me any differently from what I've already stated.

 

Thanks for posting though. Class defense is always fun.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Maybe I’m missing something, but can’t the opponent move out of the SS/off the node, lose Blind, and force the thief out with their own non-projectile AOEs? The initial post seems to presume staying in the SS, which of course only select classes/builds can afford.

[noobfest.2180]

Guys don’t listen to Trevor Boyer, he just wants to be able to kill every singe thing in 3 seconds with his 1 shot ranger build. Blinds get in the way of that and make him take 5 seconds. Sorry Trevor, blinds are pretty important to thief survival. Good luck in your next complaining post to buff your 1 shot ranger more.

[Styros.8931]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Maybe I’m missing something, but can’t the opponent move out of the SS/off the node

ofc they can, I can say even more, there no slow on skill , so you can literally go out in 1 sec and I can say again this skill has 45 sec cd 

[RedAvenged.5217]

There’s a few interesting things you can do with it, it being smokescreen.

[Leonidrex.5649]

personally I wish blind spam would be reduced in general, that includes duration from everything, how often its applied.
and most of all, pulsing blind should not be a thing.
necro blinding well is broken as kitten for example
smoke screen is similar, even pulsing blind from engi mortar... just adds to aoe bloat.
Honestly I wished blinds were single target only, and aoe blinds were super duper rare but it is what it is

[Khenzy.9348]

Black Powder shouldn't shoot a blinding proyectile. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, noobfest.2180 said:

Guys don’t listen to Trevor Boyer, he just wants to be able to kill every singe thing in 3 seconds with his 1 shot ranger build. Blinds get in the way of that and make him take 5 seconds. Sorry Trevor, blinds are pretty important to thief survival. Good luck in your next complaining post to buff your 1 shot ranger more.

Funny that you say this as you are one of the few people on NA i have seen playing this build. Also funny that every person i have seen playing this build gets super toxic if you mention how stupid pulsing blind spam is. All this build does is place blind fields and auto/stealth attack through them.

[Shao.7236]

The duration of blinds is what makes the stuff toxic, waiting it out is almost never an option.

 

Shadow Shot for example has 5 long seconds that can be used for initiative while you strike for 4k+ and safely auto unless people retaliate then you back away with the 10 spare evades you got then repeat with another Shadow Shot until the fight is over.

 

Do Black Powder Leap if there's too much pressure, conserve/restore CDs/Evades/Initiative by camping stealth.

 

I doubt Blind spam in short duration is the issue, but stacking 10+ seconds with combo fields or fields in general should be checked.

 

Take a look at what makes other dual wield skills harder to use, their timing. If the blindness was 2 seconds or so with Shadow Shot, the user will have to time it properly rather than just use it because they can.

 

For example, use it while someone using a skill rather than pop it over and over without much thinking because the duration is so long, you're guaranteed to make someone miss something important. Where as a short duration means you have to make it count otherwise they'll have the option to wait it out

 

It's a bit like how flashbang was super toxic with Engineer, it's still a good trait today, just not ridiculously self carry anymore.

 

Besides, application is unblockable on a projectile, not hit. It'll still be good, not stupid good.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Maybe I’m missing something, but can’t the opponent move out of the SS/off the node, lose Blind, and force the thief out with their own non-projectile AOEs? The initial post seems to presume staying in the SS, which of course only select classes/builds can afford.

Ineed, but there are not many builds that do this. I've already stated this in the OP post. That was kind of the entire point of what I wrote.

 

You're looking at Necros & Guardians that can handle this blind spam pit thing, and then some other things that are just simply tanky enough to stand in it and not immediately die to the Thief, like a Condi Herald or Prot Holo. Everything else has to leave that pit and lose the node, or they get pumped on by the Thief when they can't hit it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Funny that you say this as you are one of the few people on NA i have seen playing this build. Also funny that every person i have seen playing this build gets super toxic if you mention how stupid pulsing blind spam is. All this build does is place blind fields and auto/stealth attack through them.

lol of course the people refuting this and telling you to not listen to me are Thief players.

 

That's just how it goes. I would be disappointed in this forum if it weren't happening that way ^^

Edited May 1, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Crab Fear.1624]

Can you go ahead and list every problem you have with thief now, instead of chipping away at it?

 

Just list them all out right now.

 

If it is a long list, just say "it exists"...or say it can beat me sometime using skills I don't prepare for or choose not to....

[Leonidrex.5649]

12 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Can you go ahead and list every problem you have with thief now, instead of chipping away at it?

 

Just list them all out right now.

 

If it is a long list, just say "it exists"...or say it can beat me sometime using skills I don't prepare for or choose not to....

I can do it for him.
The stupid design behind thief turns entire meta of all classes around thief, to the point where even if thief isnt played, you HAVE to make a build around it.
Cthief is good example of this, if you make a build that cant just willy-nilly remove condi bombs, cthief will not let you play the game. They have 1shot button on 16s cd, that is instant, from stealth, from range that goes through walls.
There is nothing that can be do to prevent it, other then having a build that can deal with it.
So Cthief will remove an option from every single class, even if its not good.
Same thing with D/P
same thing with any other thief build.
Thief has no counter-play in its kit, so every class has to build in a way that can survive their kitten. There is no preventing it, just surviving it.
Personally I have never seen character design worse than thief's. Never ever, initiative is the worst piece of kitten I have ever witnessed in gaming, and I am kittening amazed the entire class wasnt scrapped and re-designed.

[Bast.7253]

Blind is annoying but I think the worst build is the pistol pistol bounding dodger build. I've fought people with it and it's just.. cancerous. I'm not even sure where the damage comes from. Is it the life steal from inflicting blind? The build I'm referring to doesn't seem to be running much poison or even inflict that much bleeding?

That being said, it's really only THAT build I've noticed as the biggest offender and I'm sure there are builds that can counter it much easier. 

Any other thieves I've fought and struggled against, blind was an issue, but it probably would have been a loss either way because they were better at interrupting/positioning and just good at thief in general. It's not like blind carried them to victory. If the blind is a big issue for you just try playing thief and seeing how impactful the blind really is when you're fighting something like warrior that can just weapon swap and instantly remove it...

Or sword/focus ele.. or holo.. that just pulses out so many rapid attacks and aoe that missing ONE ability with blind makes no difference.

[Bast.7253]

6 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I can do it for him.
The stupid design behind thief turns entire meta of all classes around thief, to the point where even if thief isnt played, you HAVE to make a build around it.
Cthief is good example of this, if you make a build that cant just willy-nilly remove condi bombs, cthief will not let you play the game. They have 1shot button on 16s cd, that is instant, from stealth, from range that goes through walls.
There is nothing that can be do to prevent it, other then having a build that can deal with it.
So Cthief will remove an option from every single class, even if its not good.
Same thing with D/P
same thing with any other thief build.
Thief has no counter-play in its kit, so every class has to build in a way that can survive their kitten. There is no preventing it, just surviving it.
Personally I have never seen character design worse than thief's. Never ever, initiative is the worst piece of kitten I have ever witnessed in gaming, and I am kittening amazed the entire class wasnt scrapped and re-designed.

I mean, condi thief is an issue and will likely be even more of an issue after the balance patch since they're apparently getting bleed front-loaded onto their confusion on steal. Not sure why that decision was necessary. Who even plays condi thief in pve enough to warrant that change? Now it's just more cover conditions for the poison bomb.

But dagger/pistol.. yeah.. it's annoying to fight if they're constantly stealth camping.. but there's so much cleave in the game it really takes a lot of work from the thief to time everything right.

If we want to complain about thief builds, we should complain about sword/dagger or sword/pistol.. or really just sword in general. It's pretty crap now and it's always been difficult to play, but more importantly it's just really annoying to play against. Giving someone the ability to just teleport in and out of a fight is pretty dumb, especially with multiple other shadowsteps, stealth, and a teleport on shortbow. I'm glad nobody really runs it anymore. It's difficult to land a lot of damage on but it's also the most annoying thief build to fight outside of shadow arts deadeye. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Can you go ahead and list every problem you have with thief now, instead of chipping away at it?

 

Just list them all out right now.

 

If it is a long list, just say "it exists"...or say it can beat me sometime using skills I don't prepare for or choose not to....

 

I've already answered this in my OP post.

 

No need to make it look like I'm complaining about a bunch of miscellaneous Thief mechanics when I've only commented on one of them.

 

The problem is blind spam, which becomes exasperated and ridiculous with the skill Smoke Screen.

 

I always go out of my way to help defend the Thief class. But this 100% uptime of blind whether it's from pits or other applications has gotten to be too much.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

38 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

If the blind is a big issue for you just try playing thief and seeing how impactful the blind really is when you're fighting something like warrior that can just weapon swap and instantly remove it...

 

I have been playing Thief lately actually. This is a large reason why I did realize blind spam with Smoke Screen is big cheese carry. This skill is virtually a 7s invuln when used in the right situation. Furthermore it's as good as or better than Shadow Refuge when used in conjunction with team mates who actually assist with their leaps and blasts when you drop it. 7s is a LONG time to allow stealth prebuffing. It is also strong at stopping teammates from being cleaved. This skill does too much.

 

What I found is that without Smoke Screen, I'm a bad g2 Thief. But with Smoke Screen, I can go 1v1 and kill P+ players in the same way I would on my Ranger, just by riding them with perma blind spam. Make of it what you want.

 

But what you said there about Warrior weapon swapping for cleanse, is the entire point of my post. Cleansing a blind rarely matters when you're standing in a blind pit that reapplies blind every 1s. And when you're not standing the blind pit, you're still getting ranged blind spam on you + a plethora of CC interrupt play against you, then it hops on top of you and starts spamming blind pits that generate 1s blind pulse again.

 

It's too much blinding man. 7/9 classes in the game do not possess the type of attack/defense mechanics to deal with a constant 1s blind reapplication pulse.

 

Keep in mind I am not talking about normal DP Daredevils. As I said in my original post, people are beginning to use this build that went into circulation because of the player "Prince Ali Baba" from NA. People are copy/pasting his method. It's a strangely bunkery Daredevil with lower damage and a lot more sustain, that abuses the large radius of blind pits on side nodes as well as all of the other blinds he has. Few builds are able to stay on the node without sacrificing it for survival vs. this build. It's too strong in side node conquest play. What he is doing is not a normal DPS + build, it's a side node decap duelist.

 

If I run into him tonight I'll stream it and post it.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Valhor.9056]

55 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

I have been playing Thief lately actually. This is a large reason why I did realize blind spam with Smoke Screen is big cheese carry. This skill is virtually a 7s invuln when used in the right situation. Furthermore it's as good as or better than Shadow Refuge when used in conjunction with team mates who actually assist with their leaps and blasts when you drop it. 7s is a LONG time to allow stealth prebuffing. It is also strong at stopping teammates from being cleaved. This skill does too much.

 

What I found is that without Smoke Screen, I'm a bad g2 Thief. But with Smoke Screen, I can go 1v1 and kill P+ players in the same way I would on my Ranger, just by riding them with perma blind spam. Make of it what you want.

 

But what you said there about Warrior weapon swapping for cleanse, is the entire point of my post. Cleansing a blind rarely matters when you're standing in a blind pit that reapplies blind every 1s. And when you're not standing the blind pit, you're still getting ranged blind spam on you + a plethora of CC interrupt play against you, then it hops on top of you and starts spamming blind pits that generate 1s blind pulse again.

 

It's too much blinding man. 7/9 classes in the game do not possess the type of attack/defense mechanics to deal with a constant 1s blind reapplication pulse.

 

Keep in mind I am not talking about normal DP Daredevils. As I said in my original post, people are beginning to use this build that went into circulation because of the player "Prince Ali Baba" from NA. People are copy/pasting his method. It's a strangely bunkery Daredevil with lower damage and a lot more sustain, that abuses the large radius of blind pits on side nodes as well as all of the other blinds he has. Few builds are able to stay on the node without sacrificing it for survival vs. this build. It's too strong in side node conquest play. What he is doing is not a normal DPS + build, it's a side node decap duelist.

 

If I run into him tonight I'll stream it and post it.

 

 

Ooh free plug! I knew it would eventually come from you Trevor Boyer. 😉