Quadox.7834 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) On 5/2/2021 at 6:17 PM, shadowpass.4236 said: This blind spam build has been around for a while. Probably won't get nerfed until more people abuse it in ranked. Here's a few videos showing the build: 1. Poor warrior, he hit me 2 times in a fight that lasted 25 seconds cause I just kept blinding him. 2. Full fight 3. Watch how I miss SEVEN attacks in a row with quickness at this timestamp because of how frequently I get blinded. 6 of which were autoattacks I was spamming which is the fastest way I can deal damage outside of rapid fire + barrage. Smokescreen OP I find it funny that he gives free sidenode decaps due to his own dodges stealthing him Edited May 3, 2021 by Quadox.7834 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said: I find it funny that he gives free sidenode decaps due to his own dodges stealing him Yeah it's basically like playing pre-nerf ranger with lb/gs or decap druid. You can decap and maintain neutral nodes but you can never hold them fully capped because of the stealth. This thief build can't bunker the node while holding the cap but it can pretty comfortably push into many different 1v1 matchups just cause the blind spam nullifies 90% of the damage they would normally take without them having to really burn any defensive cooldowns to avoid them. I've played it and against it enough times to know that it's pretty low (basically nonexistent) effort with medium to high reward depending on the matchups you're taking cause your opponent cannot hit you the majority of the time and probably won't be able to close on a kill even if they get damage in. Of course, there are builds like prot holo that can fight against it fine but there are some classes that don't really have a way to counter the blind spam in a 1v1. Edited May 3, 2021 by shadowpass.4236 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: It's just Smoke Screen radius that needs to be nerfed, that and maybe 7s duration needs to go to 5s. That skill is too loaded on conquest side nodes. I don't buy it. It's been "Its just" for everything from acro to vault. Keep in mind smoke screen isn't keeping you from contesting the point, and that its base CD is 45 seconds. Valhor's build is annoying, but it can't handle more than one target and is particularly bad vs Dragonhunters. It's geared to harass one person, and gradually cedes the point in doing so because he has to take bound to live. It's built specifically to stall sidenodes, at the cost of mobility (and it's slow leaking stall at that.) Do you see a pattern here by any chance? Every time a thief build approaches sidenoding, regardless of the limitations to the build that sidenode potential presents, people ask for it to be nerfed and present no alternative to thief gameplay (even though they will in a vacuum admit thief should have the potential to sidenode if it gives up mobility.) If you think there's too much blind spam that is fair and reasonable, but what should they do instead? Edited May 3, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 43 minutes ago, shadowpass.4236 said: Of course, there are builds like prot holo that can fight against it fine but there are some classes that don't really have a way to counter the blind spam in a 1v1. Non-spellbreaker warrior in particular is at this builds mercy. Necro is to a lesser extent as well, but can mitigate with corrosive cloud. That's not new though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 3, 2021 Author Share Posted May 3, 2021 29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: I don't buy it. It's been "Its just" for everything from acro to vault. Keep in mind smoke screen isn't keeping you from contesting the point, and that its base CD is 45 seconds. Valhor's build is annoying, but it can't handle more than one target and is particularly bad vs Dragonhunters. It's geared to harass one person, and gradually cedes the point in doing so because he has to take bound to live. It's built specifically to stall sidenodes, at the cost of mobility (and it's slow leaking stall at that.) Do you see a pattern here by any chance? Every time a thief build approaches sidenoding, regardless of the limitations to the build that sidenode potential presents, people ask for it to be nerfed and present no alternative to thief gameplay (even though they will in a vacuum admit thief should have the potential to sidenode if it gives up mobility.) If you think there's too much blind spam that is fair and reasonable, but what should they do instead? They are already the fastest class, which is a great boon for +ing and decaps in conquest. As with any other class, there needs to be balance with drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.6851 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: Non-spellbreaker warrior in particular is at this builds mercy. Necro is to a lesser extent as well, but can mitigate with corrosive cloud. That's not new though. 1 hour ago, shadowpass.4236 said: Yeah it's basically like playing pre-nerf ranger with lb/gs or decap druid. You can decap and maintain neutral nodes but you can never hold them fully capped because of the stealth. This thief build can't bunker the node while holding the cap but it can pretty comfortably push into many different 1v1 matchups just cause the blind spam nullifies 90% of the damage they would normally take without them having to really burn any defensive cooldowns to avoid them. I've played it and against it enough times to know that it's pretty low (basically nonexistent) effort with medium to high reward depending on the matchups you're taking cause your opponent cannot hit you the majority of the time and probably won't be able to close on a kill even if they get damage in. Of course, there are builds like prot holo that can fight against it fine but there are some classes that don't really have a way to counter the blind spam in a 1v1. Can we see more videos of this guy vs that build? I want to hear more cries of frustration before he yells into the mic about it being too hard for his ranger to hit. I wonder if during your trials of this build did you encounter dragon hunters (both full trapper and non-trapper variety), burn guardians, condi revenants, burn weaver or lightning rods, 1 shot soul beasts, holo smiths, core necromancers or scourges or minion mancers, reflect walls on any spec, ANY missile denial skill, tether spell breakers or anything with a reveal skill? Because all of these builds are hard counters to that one and justify a mirrored scream of frustration for this build. I’d like to hear more of that too, maybe stream next time you decide to give it a go? Edited May 3, 2021 by noobfest.2180 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: They are already the fastest class, which is a great boon for +ing and decaps in conquest. As with any other class, there needs to be balance with drawbacks. He literally gave up all his movement speed to do that. He's running pistol pistol, bound. He has to commit to the point. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Edited May 3, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, noobfest.2180 said: Can we see more videos of this guy vs that build? I want to hear more cries of frustration before he yells into the mic about it being too hard for his ranger to hit. I wonder if during your trials of this build did you encounter dragon hunters (both full trapper and non-trapper variety), burn guardians, condi revenants, burn weaver or lightning rods, 1 shot soul beasts, holo smiths, core necromancers or scourges or minion mancers, reflect walls on any spec, ANY missile denial skill, tether spell breakers or anything with a reveal skill? Because all of these builds are hard counters to that one and justify a mirrored scream of frustration for this build. I’d like to hear more of that too, maybe stream next time you decide to give it a go? Blind spam isn't fun to fight against in my opinion. Any builds that can spam or pulse blind frequently are pretty easy to play cause they just mitigate so much damage for free. And yeah the only build I've seen that can easily take and kill this 1v1 is prot holo with laser disk and that's only if the thief overextends instead of just shadowstepping away. I know you listed a ton of builds but it doesn't matter what they're running. If they don't have a lot of very frequent and constant multihits or extremely high uptime on resistance, this thief build can basically negate 90% of their skills or more if the player is better. Just to give an example, burn builds can't kill this cause the cleansing dodges + blind + cleansing sigils can mitigate the condi well. Keep in mind the thief doesn't just have to spam his rotation. Dodging ccs properly like you would on any other class, coupled with the blinds basically makes the build unkillable in most 1v1s if the thief doesn't shadowstep away. 1 shot soulbeast is countered by smokescreen. Crev damage is pretty easy to avoid for the most part and the thief can just steal the resistance off at key moments to kill. Regardless, I'd like access to blinds to be reduced overall. It's big value if you're able to spam them and frustrating to be on the receiving end of it when 9/10 of your skills aren't hitting anything. Edited May 3, 2021 by shadowpass.4236 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhor.9056 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) Let's just be glad that you or I aren't devs that would nerf everything that is frustrating or hard to kill because the game would have nothing left in it. Edited May 3, 2021 by Valhor.9056 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Valhor.9056 said: I've fixed your post to make it more global and accurate for all, you're welcome. Warrior can spam CCs, the old spirit weapon dh could spam burns, there's also things that just cancer the node but at least you can hit those builds. Any builds that can spam blind is easy mode. People don't even have to pay attention 80% of a fight running that blind spam thief build cause none of their opponents' skills are going to hit hard or frequently enough to actually kill it in a 1v1. Not that the build is unbeatable, but it hard counters a lot of things cause they don't have multihits or enough sustain to 1v1 it for an extended period of time. Anyways it's not fun to fight against but that's just my opinion, I don't really care if it gets nerfed or not. Edited May 3, 2021 by shadowpass.4236 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc enjoyer.4976 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 There is a lot of counter play to the build. it’s no secret that a condition called blind would work on physical attackers to a greater extent than multiple burst/condition heavy characters. I’ve played with and against it many times, I don’t think it’s in need of any serious attention. It’s a great 1v1 build that can occasionally live long enough to see change in the map during a 1v2.. when it was first drafted it was close to unstoppable, but now.. nah. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 4 hours ago, meltdown.5348 said: There is a lot of counter play to the build. it’s no secret that a condition called blind would work on physical attackers to a greater extent than multiple burst/condition heavy characters. I’ve played with and against it many times, I don’t think it’s in need of any serious attention. It’s a great 1v1 build that can occasionally live long enough to see change in the map during a 1v2.. when it was first drafted it was close to unstoppable, but now.. nah. fun fact, condi builds miss when blinded too P.S why is sneak attack still 100% broj finisher btw? and not 20% like all multi projectile shots? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) @shadowpass.4236 @Valhor.9056 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834 @Leonidrex.5649 @Crab Fear.1624 Check it out boys, make of it what you want. But I'm telling you people had not yet optimized this blind spam thing. When you run a condi variant with it, it is STRONG. I tried PP power variants, DP Daredevil variants, DE variants, all kinds of variants. But PP Carrion/Adventurer Impaling Lotus takes the cake easily. Watch this video and tell me this isn't bully. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1010520733 Not sure why it isn't letting post the video as an actual video but w/e. Edited May 4, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: @shadowpass.4236 @Valhor.9056 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834 Check it out boys, make of it what you want. But I'm telling you people had not yet optimized this blind spam thing. When you run a condi variant with it, it is STRONG. I tried PP power variants, DP Daredevil variants, DE variants, all kinds of variants. But PP Carrion/Adventurer Impaling Lotus takes the cake easily. Watch this video and tell me this isn't bully. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1010520733 Not sure why it isn't letting post the video as an actual video but w/e. I wanna fight it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpel.3972 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: @shadowpass.4236 @Valhor.9056 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834 @Leonidrex.5649 @Crab Fear.1624 Check it out boys, make of it what you want. But I'm telling you people had not yet optimized this blind spam thing. When you run a condi variant with it, it is STRONG. I tried PP power variants, DP Daredevil variants, DE variants, all kinds of variants. But PP Carrion/Adventurer Impaling Lotus takes the cake easily. Watch this video and tell me this isn't bully. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1010520733 Not sure why it isn't letting post the video as an actual video but w/e. If you want to point something, it's clearly Impaling Lotus the problem and not smoke screen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.6851 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: @shadowpass.4236 @Valhor.9056 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834 @Leonidrex.5649 @Crab Fear.1624 Check it out boys, make of it what you want. But I'm telling you people had not yet optimized this blind spam thing. When you run a condi variant with it, it is STRONG. I tried PP power variants, DP Daredevil variants, DE variants, all kinds of variants. But PP Carrion/Adventurer Impaling Lotus takes the cake easily. Watch this video and tell me this isn't bully. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1010520733 Not sure why it isn't letting post the video as an actual video but w/e. I’m not sure what to tell you, but this isn’t that impressive of a build nor is it oppressive.. This is another classic case of gw2 matchmaking where you had a team and were matched against potatoes. Really hard to use this as a case study. (Just noticed this was an unranked match at 2AM on a Tuesday . . . .) Try bringing this build into a ranked match where your 1 shot soulbeast usually plays and see what happens to it there. Should be a real eye opener for your “el busto” build. 💩 Good luck in your future games. 🤡 Edited May 4, 2021 by noobfest.2180 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: @shadowpass.4236 @Valhor.9056 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834 @Leonidrex.5649 @Crab Fear.1624 Check it out boys, make of it what you want. But I'm telling you people had not yet optimized this blind spam thing. When you run a condi variant with it, it is STRONG. I tried PP power variants, DP Daredevil variants, DE variants, all kinds of variants. But PP Carrion/Adventurer Impaling Lotus takes the cake easily. Watch this video and tell me this isn't bully. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1010520733 Not sure why it isn't letting post the video as an actual video but w/e. I have so many comments. The necro was solo side noding. The enemy thief wasn't that good. You got repeated support from your team (meaning they won their fights elsewhere so you weren't getting plus'ed). You didn't have anyone who actually went after you with quickness, which is how you can still spike people down who are depending on blind (that or resistance which negates the entire blind spam idea). The necro hit you with fear (oh look the blind didn't help) multiple times so he actually decapped you (so you can keep a node neutral but nothing more). This is a tankier build for sure. It's not OP. You'd need to be 1v2 and win/stall versus competent players for it to come close to OP. Winning 1v1 or 2v1 and stalling out a node (even had to run away at one point—and the necro even tried to chase you lol) doesn't prove your point. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yumenei.7943 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) Such a long discussion, yet what eludes most people here is the fact that the current state of the game is all over the place in terms of balance, because ANet is setting foundations for EoD release. Next week we're gonna get another massive balance update, where Retailation will be removed (or in fact changed completely) and Resistance will grant immunity ONLY to all non-damaging conditions. This means that most likely Resistance boon will last longer and there will be more sources of it across all classes once EoD is released. We're gonna see more broken kitten like this probably until EoD and possibily even after release 🙂 So, relax bois and let us see what future update brings to the table. Edited May 4, 2021 by Omernon.9762 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, noobfest.2180 said: I’m not sure what to tell you, but this isn’t that impressive of a build nor is it oppressive.. This is another classic case of gw2 matchmaking where you had a team and were matched against potatoes. Really hard to use this as a case study. (Just noticed this was an unranked match at 2AM on a Tuesday . . . .) Try bringing this build into a ranked match where your 1 shot soulbeast usually plays and see what happens to it there. Should be a real eye opener for your “el busto” build. 💩 Good luck in your future games. 🤡 Rangers can't hit you bruh. I just streamed for 2 hours and rolled over every Ranger/Soulbeast I came across without going bellow 90% health. There honestly aren't many builds that can go toe to toe 1v1 against this. You'll see, give it time. More people will begin figuring this out. The condi version of this is A LOT stronger than the power version. Go load it up and try it yourself. Anyway, I've said & shown everything that needed to be said & shown here. So this will be my final post in this thread. Even though I am having a lot of fun running this build, my statement still stands that blind spam on Thief is too strong for what it is. The large majority of builds or even some entire classes, simply do not provide what is needed to even begin to realistically meet a build like this in combat. Sorry boys, just someone needed to point it out. You know I do the same thing when Ranger is too strong. I was amongst the first to advocate nerfing Boonbeast, Sic Em, and Marks Mods, as well as many other things when it needs to be said. And it is important to note that I do not feel like blind spam is the normal type of over-powered. I feel that blind spam is straight up broken. It creates too many no counter play situations against too many classes. I don't want to see Thief eviscerated, nor even the blind spam tactics actually. But as Shao had pointed out at some point, maybe the blinds should be half the duration that they are, to keep things a bit more realistic here in terms of counter play. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1011216519 Edited May 4, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jekkt.6045 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 13 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: Rangers can't hit you bruh. I just streamed for 2 hours and rolled over every Ranger/Soulbeast I came across without going bellow 90% health. There honestly aren't many builds that can go toe to toe 1v1 against this. You'll see, give it time. More people will begin figuring this out. The condi version of this is A LOT stronger than the power version. Go load it up and try it yourself. Anyway, I've said & shown everything that needed to be said & shown here. So this will be my final post in this thread. Even though I am having a lot of fun running this build, my statement still stands that blind spam on Thief is too strong for what it is. The large majority of builds or even some entire classes, simply do not provide what is needed to even begin to realistically meet a build like this in combat. Sorry boys, just someone needed to point it out. You know I do the same thing when Ranger is too strong. I was amongst the first to advocate nerfing Boonbeast, Sic Em, and Marks Mods, as well as many other things when it needs to be said. And it is important to note that I do not feel like blind spam is the normal type of over-powered. I feel that blind spam is straight up broken. It creates too many no counter play situations against too many classes. I don't want to see Thief eviscerated, nor even the blind spam tactics actually. But as Shao had pointed out at some point, maybe the blinds should be half the duration that they are, to keep things a bit more realistic here in terms of counter play. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1011216519 turns out, there's always something to be abused on thief. now the question is, is the build strong enough to be meta warping? probably not. I don't think it's at a power level that requires a nerf. having said that, power isn't the only metric to go by. is this a major feelsbad build? yes it probably is and will therefore be nerfed at one point in the future would be my guess. that's pretty much it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) Thief suffers from giving certain skills overloaded while others being only effective in niche situations, pair this with ini mechanics and u promote spamming the same skill or two heavily. Remove daze on headshot Add blind on headshot Increase damage on headshot to like 1.5k or 1k for example Remove blind from shadowshot Nerf shadowshot damage by 10% Allow shadowshot shot to interupt Return bountiful thefts 3 boons rip Thrilled of the crime grants its boons after a successful backstab(leaves steal the same if successful but debloats skill if not). Headshot now could tell opponent a possible shadowshot is about to happen giving the opponent a tell, id assume most thieves would try and blind before tele into mele range. Headshot will be used more, the combo requires more ini to accomplish what shadowdhot alone does now. The thief won't be pushed towards spamming shadowshot which would be more damage than doing headshot-shadowshot combo but u would be teleporting into melee without the blind from headshot which is a risk/reward question and I bet most would heafshot first for blind resulting in thief actually using more than shadowshot and heartseeker damage which ultimately makes thief more fun to use as well. The interrupt being moved to shadowshot allows thief to still quickly interrupt but puts them in melee range minus the blind unless headshot is successfully used prior resulting in two skills and their ini costs having to be used for same result. My opinion anyways. Edited May 5, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 5, 2021 Author Share Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) Thief needs the daze on Headshot. What it does not need is beyond 100% blind spam uptime. Like you do realize how much blind is coming off these builds right? There is enough blind to where a person can cleanse a condi once per second or two perpetually, and that person would still be blinded 100% of the time. Edited May 5, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 I think people should be more worried about potential s/d condi thief coming back in ranked where people play sic em , nades and shiro Rene. It’s obnoxious and will turn even experienced players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz.4650 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: I think people should be more worried about potential s/d condi thief coming back in ranked where people play sic em , nades and shiro Rene. It’s obnoxious and will turn even experienced players. What has always annoyed me the most about condi thief is that for a class that is supposed to have a higher skill floor than most other classes, condi thief has always been way too easy to play for how well it can perform and straight up delete some builds. Condis on thief is so fundamentally badly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jekkt.6045 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 3 hours ago, eksn.7264 said: What has always annoyed me the most about condi thief is that for a class that is supposed to have a higher skill floor than most other classes, condi thief has always been way too easy to play for how well it can perform and straight up delete some builds. Condis on thief is so fundamentally badly designed. Who cares how hard or how easy a build is. The only thing that matters is how strong a build is. Once you get good enough the difficulty of a build pretty much becomes irrelevant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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