Reactions to the Finale, Judgment [Poll]

[rrusse.7058]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509

Right, so you've carefully analyzed each point that I have brought up and explained it all in great detail answering why x, y or z occured. Thank you for that, but it still doesn't change the fact that Arenanet is now missing one of the most critical elements of storytelling. Making an audience care.

 

When the stakes are thrown around and or changed on what appear to be whims, then the audience cannot commit themselves to a story. If the story teller cannot make it clear what is happening and why any of it matters, then the audience doesn't care. Then why do we even have a story?

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Because at the time there was no entity that would replace Kralkatorik, and keep the balance of the world in check. Following Aurene's ascension(which she wasn't ready for during PoF) there is. Letting Baltahzar do what he was trying to do would have destroyed the world as a result, which is obviously bad.

 

So going to the striking down Balthazar point right? Season 3 focused heavily on the idea of magics needing balance and how we cannot simply kill dragons freely due to the "Balance". After these events as well as Season 4 Aurene of course ascends, great. So now we have a friendly dragon that can share magic when necessary and take it in, but not to the point of dragon madness. Good.

 

Still we have to maintain balance. Which is what we have been trying to do for the last 4 months with the finale of Ice Brood Saga. We cannot kill the dragons outright because there is a need for balance. So what do we do? We go with a plan that Aurene came up with in the final hour. We don't even know if it will work and if Aurene can take on the magics of two elder dragons at once. So possible failure means the end of the world, even with Aurene at our side.

 

Yet we do it anyway, essentially fail at containing the magic and are told to wait, because the magic went "somewhere"? That's not a good thing and that is not good storytelling.

 

We can break down each why and why not til we are all blue in the face but if we are going to tell stories in this game, they better have some semblence of logic to them and stick to the rules that they create otherwise people are going to stop caring real soon, real quick.

Edited May 4, 2021 by rrusse.7058

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Right, so you've carefully analyzed each point that I have brought up and explained it all in great detail answering why x, y or z occured. Thank you for that, but it still doesn't change the fact that Arenanet is now missing one of the most critical elements of storytelling. Making an audience care.

People have been claiming they don't care since vanilla. People always pull out the "they don't make me care" argument every time a story doesn't go 100% exactly as they wanted it to.

 

1 hour ago, rrusse.7058 said:

When the stakes are thrown around and or changed on what appear to be whims, then the audience cannot commit themselves to a story. If the story teller cannot make it clear what is happening and why any of it matters, then the audience doesn't care. Then why do we even have a story?

Except none of these things were thrown around or changed on a whim. why all of these things happened was explained in-game.

 

1 hour ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Still we have to maintain balance. Which is what we have been trying to do for the last 4 months with the finale of Ice Brood Saga. We cannot kill the dragons outright because there is a need for balance. So what do we do? We go with a plan that Aurene came up with in the final hour. We don't even know if it will work and if Aurene can take on the magics of two elder dragons at once. So possible failure means the end of the world, even with Aurene at our side.

 

Yet we do it anyway, essentially fail at containing the magic and are told to wait, because the magic went "somewhere"? That's not a good thing and that is not good storytelling.

 

We can break down each why and why not til we are all blue in the face but if we are going to tell stories in this game, they better have some semblence of logic to them and stick to the rules that they create otherwise people are going to stop caring real soon, real quick.

We were trying to maintain the balance between Jormag and Primrodus, hoping we could get through this without having to kill either. Aurene changed her mind because of the ever escalating attacks by both dragons which had spread across the known world, to the point every major race and their grandmother was having to get involved to keep them in check.

 

The dragons forced her hand at that point because if we didn't do this, they were going to destroy all life on the planet in their ever escalating war for supremacy.

[rrusse.7058]

11 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

People have been claiming they don't care since vanilla. People always pull out the "they don't make me care" argument every time a story doesn't go 100% exactly as they wanted it to.

Are you being hyperbolic? People not caring since vanilla can't be possible otherwise this game wouldn't exist as it does in its current iteration. They always say "They don't make me care"? I'd like to meet these people because they at least have a deeper argument to make besides "ded gaem!"

 

The story can obviously go any direction the writing team wants it to, and it certainly has done that here. So much that its backpedaling a lot of what has been set up.

 

17 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We were trying to maintain the balance between Jormag and Primrodus, hoping we could get through this without having to kill either. Aurene changed her mind because of the ever escalating attacks by both dragons which had spread across the known world, to the point every major race and their grandmother was having to get involved to keep them in check.

 

The dragons forced her hand at that point because if we didn't do this, they were going to destroy all life on the planet in their ever escalating war for supremacy.

 

You're making good points on this but you're missing the point with the finale. The story from Ch.1 to Ch. 3 makes sense, yes we are trying to keep the balance like you said. We have been trying to do that since season 3. Now what did the finale do? It ignored all that and did the thing that we were trying avoid.

 

Okay, Both dragons were escalating their attacks, right it's still logical up to that point that we stop them, and Aurene acts, but we, kill them? From the PC perspective not killing them leads to a drawn out war between the two that has the free people Tyria between them and killing them kills the planet. The world will end either way. Obviously we as players know it doesn't but in their world, it is a death sentence to kill them or not.

[Doggie.3184]

Negative. It... was very short. Felt like a "lets just end this and get it over with" sorta thing. I guess I agree at this point, they've lost touch with GW1 so much that they mine as well just scrap it all and hopefully start something new that they're good at. /shrugs 

GW2 needs their version of Shadowbringers as far as 'direction changes' go. The writing has always been a shaky hit or miss each release.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

Are you being hyperbolic? People not caring since vanilla can't be possible otherwise this game wouldn't exist as it does in its current iteration. They always say "They don't make me care"? I'd like to meet these people because they at least have a deeper argument to make besides "ded gaem!"

Here's the problem with this argument. People on the forums claiming they don't care =/= most people don't care.

 

Its a common misconception to think that the forums represent the general playerbase. They don't. In fact, many game devs have admitted they are outright told to NEVER go on their own forums, or listen to anything the forums say, because actual data collected from their games has shown that the forum goers are not the majority opinion wise, and that forum goes are just perpetually angry over everything. So its not worth interacting with them.

 

3 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

The story can obviously go any direction the writing team wants it to, and it certainly has done that here. So much that its backpedaling a lot of what has been set up.

 

You're making good points on this but you're missing the point with the finale. The story from Ch.1 to Ch. 3 makes sense, yes we are trying to keep the balance like you said. We have been trying to do that since season 3. Now what did the finale do? It ignored all that and did the thing that we were trying avoid.

 

Okay, Both dragons were escalating their attacks, right it's still logical up to that point that we stop them, and Aurene acts, but we, kill them? From the PC perspective not killing them leads to a drawn out war between the two that has the free people Tyria between them and killing them kills the planet. The world will end either way. Obviously we as players know it doesn't but in their world, it is a death sentence to kill them or not.

And chapter 4 builds on what happened on the first three chapters. Nothing was ignored/backpedaled.

 

Aurene tried to stay out of the conflict in the first three chapters, thinking that this could be brought to a more peaceful conclusion. The ever escalating dragon attacks, and the desperate fight by the races to stop them, proved that impossible, forcing her hand. Literally, everything we did in the DRMs showed her she couldn't keep that stance.

 

And yes we kill them. Keeping the balance between Jormag and Primordus =/= keeping the balance of magic. When Aurene ascended she was able to take in so much magic that she reset the balance back to pre-HoT levels, removing any volatile/unbound magic from the world, and stopping the rampant ley infused giant monsters problems. Hence why they don't make an appearance in IBS. Glint mentions during the trials that Aurene sharing her magic(like she does with Caithe, the Commander, the Crystal Bloom, etc.) can help prevent the issues of madness, and Kralk points out at the end of LWS4 that Aurene is able to take in all the magics without them conflicting inside her.

 

We never needed Jormag or Primordus to stay alive to prevent the world from ending. Aurene can take care of the magic balance problems. Aurene wanted to end it peacefully because she believed that Jormag at least could be brought around to possibly being good, because of her past conversations with Jormag, and Jormag's seemingly not insanity. This was proven wrong went Jormag was proven to be full psyhco in the earlier Champion's releases, which is why we became ok with killing it now.

 

All of this was built up/explained in the last two chapters of LWS4, the Bangar conversations in IBS, and Aurene's comments during the earlier champions releases.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[rrusse.7058]

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Aurene tried to stay out of the conflict in the first three chapters, thinking that this could be brought to a more peaceful conclusion. The ever escalating dragon attacks, and the desperate fight by the races to stop them, proved that impossible, forcing her hand. Literally, everything we did in the DRMs showed her she couldn't keep that stance.

At this point we are talking in circles. Yes you made your point that in terms of the plot it was explained why anything has been happening. Right, and your lore and explanations are spot on but you're ignoring my original point. It's not good writing. Writing stories like this will cause players, including the ones that play casually, do just their dailies, play for the story and even engage on the subreddits and official forums as we are now to lose engagement with the product.

 

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Here's the problem with this argument. People on the forums claiming they don't care =/= most people don't care.

Right, so why did you say:

 

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

People have been claiming they don't care since vanilla. People always pull out the "they don't make me care" argument every time a story doesn't go 100% exactly as they wanted it to.

This was your response to my point "Writing like this causes players to not care about what happens anymore" As in, handwaving away the problems that the plot itself creates. So my opinion is invalid because I am talking about being displeased about the poor writing choices on the official forums because I may or may not be an accurate representation of the playerbase?

 

So if I am understanding what you are saying. People always  say things such as, "They don't make me care" because the story is not to their liking, and "I don't care" =/= most players do not care.

 

So where should any dev team get feedback from?

 

Should we just be gather data based on player enagement as in # of players online? I agree that players like ourselves here on the official forums are not the majority of players, so having a kneejerk reaction to anything read here is likely a bad call. So what are you saying?

 

Anyway,

7 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

GW2 needs their version of Shadowbringers as far as 'direction changes' go. The writing has always been a shaky hit or miss each release

I'm unfamilair with FFXIV, I couldn't take the combat and slow pacing of beginning quests of the demo to keep playing. What did Shadowbringers do to change the game up for the better?

Edited May 5, 2021 by rrusse.7058

[slave to the grind.5028]

On 5/4/2021 at 6:00 AM, Caitybee.3614 said:

A lot of you guys are incredibly ungrateful for what we were provided. Anet went through some major changes over a year ago and then 2020 hit everyone which probably made it even harder on them as a company. Especially given gaming is technically NOT an essential necessity. They didn't have to make any content for us during that time, yet they managed to right on schedule every 2 months.

 

I will agree some of the story elements could have been improved, and I would've liked to see the 2 elder dragons have bit of a boxing match before they went at each other's throat in the big "clash" during the finale. However as I re-played Dragonstorm, I realized that ending was the BEST possible outcome for the story and the dragons.

 

I say that because Jormag was pent up on nothing but rage and was sick and tired of being in the shadow of Primordus for so long. So what did Jormag do? Took the kill shot the moment it got one. I completely understood that approach, and it eliminated 2 very big threats that would've needed a much longer storyline to properly outline both dragons had they not chosen to take both out together.

 

I applaud Anet for getting us the content during one of the hardest years in history. They deserve more credit than people want to ever give them. I love Guild Wars 2, it's my go-to game/thing to do when I need to get my mind off things bothering me in my life. I'm grateful for this game and I'll support it until the day it closes its doors - which I hope isn't for a very long time.

 

All those threatening Anet and being "entitled" because the story didn't go the way they wanted need to check themselves, or do what they say and find something else to do. I'm sure Anet is under a LOT of pressure to get this new expansion completed for those who are constantly whining at them for new stuff to do, and people still have the guts to call them out for being "incompetent".

 

Thank you Anet. ❤️

 

Edit: I knew I'd get laughed at or ridiculed, but I don't care. Just shows who the better person is.

The pandemic is just an excuse. Software development is an industry that literally does not care about covid in its impact. If covid had not happened, the IBS would have been exactly the same as it was now. If Anet were a restaurant, I'd speak differently, but, it's not.

[rrusse.7058]

1 hour ago, slave to the grind.5028 said:

The pandemic is just an excuse. Software development is an industry that literally does not care about covid in its impact. If covid had not happened, the IBS would have been exactly the same as it was now. If Anet were a restaurant, I'd speak differently, but, it's not.

Dunno. Every industry and field has been affected differently. I know mine certainly has. What I think would be a more interesting discussion is, "What would Icebrood Saga be if there was no End of Dragons?"

 

I would like to see what the devs had in mind for the Saga in its original imagining. What were these planned "expansion quality" items they had in mind? Obviously no dev can or will talk about that now as they would want to save face for with what we have on hand now.

 

Still it would be interesting to hear or read an interview with a dev/former dev talking about GW2 and IBS long after the game has slowed down and we've all moved onto Guild Wars 3/The Tyria Wars. Would IBS have been something the community could really rally behind and say "That would have been so much cooler than EoD!" (No pun intended.)

 

Perhaps a lot of the original ideas for IBS is getting rolled into EoD just how Guild Wars: Utopia was rolled into Eye of the North and GW2.

 

Time will tell.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 5/2/2021 at 3:40 AM, nopinopa.4861 said:

It would be better to get nothing before the EoD or get EoD not this/next year, but much, much later.

yeah , my bet before release is that they just was gonna put them to sleep like in LS3.... it would be very less disaster for the lore.

[slave to the grind.5028]

2 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

What I think would be a more interesting discussion is, "What would Icebrood Saga be if there was no End of Dragons?"

This, I think, is the much more pertinent issue, yes.

[Caitybee.3614]

8 hours ago, slave to the grind.5028 said:

The pandemic is just an excuse. Software development is an industry that literally does not care about covid in its impact. If covid had not happened, the IBS would have been exactly the same as it was now. If Anet were a restaurant, I'd speak differently, but, it's not.

 

Actually NO it's NOT an excuse! Like I said, you all seem to forget they lost a LOT of staff 2 summers ago. I strongly believed that impacted the quality of content that we see now. However I will never blame the company for those decisions. They've had it rough like everyone else has, and STILL met schedules on time. If you're not happy with the game, please find something else to play. I'm tired of people constantly bashing Anet and GW2. I believe EoD will be exactly what the game needs to boost it back to where it was before.

The negativity and backlash has GOT TO STOP. It does nobody any good, and I'm just grateful I have a game like this to occupy myself.

I also STRONGLY believe IBS would've been much different had Covid not come. A lot of you really need to see things from the full picture perspective instead of being selfish.

 

I honestly believe Anet is hurting right now in many areas. That's why I give them the credit they deserve. They still do what we want when enough people complain about it, and some have the nerve to ask for more.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Caitybee.3614

[Lost in Hyrule.2963]

Caitybee, this perspective does not make sense. Yes, many players can definitely bring a sense of entitlement to discussions. And, of course, people love to exaggerate things when they are unhappy. 

 

Your stance suggests that we cannot discuss faults in the product this company is giving to us. We are only allowed to discuss the things it does well. At the same time, you admit that the quality of the product has been 'impacted' by Covid and staff layoffs. You have the attitude of "I am happy with the quality we received in light of the environment in which it came out." My perspective is "I am unhappy with the quality we received, despite the environment in which it came out, and would have preferred delays and a higher quality product." I don't see how you can claim it is wrong to express that, or that it is 'entitled' to feel that way. 

[Tatwi.3562]

It has been pretty much everything I don't like about the game. I never did like this stuff in the previous story content either, but this story content is shallow, poorly written, and even comes off as "woke" at times (like we need that in our entertainment...), so that makes the negative stuff feel even worse.

 

What I don't like:

- Constant AoE spam

- Knockdown/interrupt spam

- Boring, stupid, pathetic "haha you must do solo combat while we go the other way, because that's content!' lame waste of my time.

- One dimensional characters.

- The "Commander" is now snrarky and impatient.

- Aurene is a Mary Sue.. horrible character I have NEVER cared about.

- Canach's last encounter was cut down, cut rate, and lacked ANY ending dialog at all. Come on, he's the best character in the game! Even with a different voice actor.

- Walking for eons (OMG the instance where you play as Brahm was a joke. Takes forever, totally boring, and the silly plot).

 

And finally, as a person who healed hundreds of 5 mans in WoW during the WotLK expansion, I can say with certainty that you folks do not know how to make FUN 5 man content. I hate all of the ones you made. Congratulations!

 

I sincerely hope NCsoft sells ArenaNet to someone who will let the company have a soul again.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Tatwi.3562

[rrusse.7058]

5 hours ago, Lost in Hyrule.2963 said:

Your stance suggests that we cannot discuss faults in the product this company is giving to us. We are only allowed to discuss the things it does well. At the same time, you admit that the quality of the product has been 'impacted' by Covid and staff layoffs.

Critique and feedback presented the right way is key. A 'crap sandwich' if you will. We should give feedback that fits something that needs improvement between two good points. Something good, something to improve and good. 

 

I agree that we should be able to critique a product or media, but it has to be done in a constructive way. Perhaps @Caitybee.3614 is referring to statements such as:

 

"I hate Icebrood Saga, it sucks and Arenanet is just being lazy."

 

A statement like that has several generalizations and doesn't provide any constructive ways to improve. What did the user not like about IBS? We don't know. How can anything be changed when the feedback is something like "It sucks." Also we don't have a clear idea of what the person means by "lazy". Are we talking work hours because those could be the same. Is it manpower? Finance? We don't know and it's likely that comments like these are made by people that also do not know.

 

Any company worth the vials of salt is going to want feedback, either directly or gathered internally. How we package it is key.

Edited May 6, 2021 by rrusse.7058

[The Greyhawk.9107]

9 hours ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

 

Actually NO it's NOT an excuse! Like I said, you all seem to forget they lost a LOT of staff 2 summers ago. I strongly believed that impacted the quality of content that we see now. However I will never blame the company for those decisions. They've had it rough like everyone else has, and STILL met schedules on time. If you're not happy with the game, please find something else to play. I'm tired of people constantly bashing Anet and GW2. I believe EoD will be exactly what the game needs to boost it back to where it was before.

The negativity and backlash has GOT TO STOP. It does nobody any good, and I'm just grateful I have a game like this to occupy myself.

I also STRONGLY believe IBS would've been much different had Covid not come. A lot of you really need to see things from the full picture perspective instead of being selfish.

 

I honestly believe Anet is hurting right now in many areas. That's why I give them the credit they deserve. They still do what we want when enough people complain about it, and some have the nerve to ask for more.

Getting content out "on time" is fundamentally unimportant if doing so causes a drop in quality, Anet absolutely should have pushed back releases.  And blaming Covid is still an excuse as the biggest problems a plurality of those unhappy with IBS are the story, the writing.  And there's this thing about writing that's different from a lot of other jobs:  It can be done at home with a minimal drop in productivity.  With lock downs and stay at home orders the writers should have had more than enough time to come up with a better story than what was given to us.

 

Also, stop trying to tell us what to do.

Edited May 6, 2021 by The Greyhawk.9107

[rrusse.7058]

6 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

And there's this thing about writing that's different from a lot of other jobs:  It can be done at home with a minimal drop in productivity.  With lock downs and stay at home orders the writers should have had more than enough time to come up with a better story than what was given to us.

I agree that everyone is free to critique a piece of media or a product but I don't think any of us here should pretend to know exactly what is going on in the "writing room" as there isn't one at the moment due to the bug.

 

The devs have spoken in Guild Chats about how working from home has changed a lot of the daily comings and goings of a normal work day. Got a question about something? No more poking your head over your desk or walking over to their workstation. Sure you can try to call them but they might be away from their phone/computer.

 

Technically your work hours are 9:00 to 5:00 but creativity doesn't keep business hours. You're on a roll and you don't want to lose the momentum you've got going at that moment, but if you keep going, you'll be working to 6:00 or 7:00 and it could end up as what the Japanese call "service zankgyo" or unpaid overtime. This is your passion though right? You want to do this because it's what you do and you get paid to do it? A dev has got to eat and sleep though.

 

My point being, we of course have the right to critique, but work/life balance was a struggle before the bug and it is even more so when the very place you work and sleep are now the same place. I don't want us to start assuming too much.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

7 minutes ago, rrusse.7058 said:

I agree that everyone is free to critique a piece of media or a product but I don't think any of us here should pretend to know exactly what is going on in the "writing room" as there isn't one at the moment due to the bug.

 

The devs have spoken in Guild Chats about how working from home has changed a lot of the daily comings and goings of a normal work day. Got a question about something? No more poking your head over your desk or walking over to their workstation. Sure you can try to call them but they might be away from their phone/computer.

 

Technically your work hours are 9:00 to 5:00 but creativity doesn't keep business hours. You're on a roll and you don't want to lose the momentum you've got going at that moment, but if you keep going, you'll be working to 6:00 or 7:00 and it could end up as what the Japanese call "service zankgyo" or unpaid overtime. This is your passion though right? You want to do this because it's what you do and you get paid to do it? A dev has got to eat and sleep though.

 

My point being, we of course have the right to critique, but work/life balance was a struggle before the bug and it is even more so when the very place you work and sleep are now the same place. I don't want us to start assuming too much.

Sorry, but I just can't agree that Covid is enough to prevent writers from making a good or even a half decent story, not in this day and age with the multitude of different way one can stay in contact with other people. Things like Zoom calls have become ubiquitous with white collar businesses.  You ask "what if they aren't at their phone"  but the same can be true at the office, the person you're trying to get a hold of might not be at their desk.  And that whole bit about creativity not adhering to a 9 to 5 time slot...wouldn't already being at home all the better facilitate keeping the momentum as you put it?  What I'm saying is that there just aren't the same barriers for writers getting their work done during the Lockdowns that there are for just about everything else, its just not enough of an excuse to explain away such a terrible story that breaks so much of the lore and world building.  Its just not good enough.

[rrusse.7058]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Sorry, but I just can't agree that Covid is enough to prevent writers from making a good or even a half decent story, not in this day and age with the multitude of different way one can stay in contact with other people. Things like Zoom calls have become ubiquitous with white collar businesses.  You ask "what if they aren't at their phone"  but the same can be true at the office, the person you're trying to get a hold of might not be at their desk.  And that whole bit about creativity not adhering to a 9 to 5 time slot...wouldn't already being at home all the better facilitate keeping the momentum as you put it?  What I'm saying is that there just aren't the same barriers for writers getting their work done during the Lockdowns that there are for just about everything else, its just not enough of an excuse to explain away such a terrible story that breaks so much of the lore and world building.  Its just not good enough.

That's just it though, none of us know exactly if it was COVID-19 or not that was the biggest or only wrench in the plans. I agree that this season has left much to be desired and I agree that writing as a profession is one of the few jobs that is less affected in terms of work flow.

 

If we're writers right and we are making a story and as you said we have phones, Zoom, email, DM etc.. then yeah getting in touch with one another is pretty easy. I write the first few chapters and you edit them or write the next chapter after we plan it. Have it proofread and our editor goes over it and gives it the greenlight, great. COVID-19 isn't much of a hurdle for us then, but this isn't just a story we are writing, it's a game.

 

There are programmers, artists, composers, testers, writers, sound engineers, voice actors and actresses, directors, managers etc.. As writers we have to make sure that the dialogue and reading makes sense for where the player character is. If the art team and programming team have made it so these characters are present but we haven't written them in there, what are we supposed to do? We then need to figure out who writes those characters in, and what are they going to say? What are they going to do? We can't just write, "Oh hi Commander!". The quality will show.

 

Then there's the fact that the dev team was "gifted" End of Dragons part way through the Saga. We wrote this thing out to go another 3 or 4 episodes, but now our publisher is telling us that's no good and they want the saga done ASAP. That means rewrites, scrapped maps, assets, artwork, programs, music, voiced lines and so on. That's not all, we now have to work with a skeleton crew because it's all hands on deck for EoD. The remaining staff are great folks but we are understaffed.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to criticize Arenanet for how the Saga has been received. I'm diappointed too, and more likely than not, COVID-19 alone was not the only issue. Hell, I wish it was the only issue but it probably wasn't. We shouldn't be so eager to jump down one anothers throats and say, "No excuses!" It's not that simple.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

That's just it though, none of us know exactly if it was COVID-19 or not that was the biggest or only wrench in the plans. I agree that this season has left much to be desired and I agree that writing as a profession is one of the few jobs that is less affected in terms of work flow.

 

If we're writers right and we are making a story and as you said we have phones, Zoom, email, DM etc.. then yeah getting in touch with one another is pretty easy. I write the first few chapters and you edit them or write the next chapter after we plan it. Have it proofread and our editor goes over it and gives it the greenlight, great. COVID-19 isn't much of a hurdle for us then, but this isn't just a story we are writing, it's a game.

 

There are programmers, artists, composers, testers, writers, sound engineers, voice actors and actresses, directors, managers etc.. As writers we have to make sure that the dialogue and reading makes sense for where the player character is. If the art team and programming team have made it so these characters are present but we haven't written them in there, what are we supposed to do? We then need to figure out who writes those characters in, and what are they going to say? What are they going to do? We can't just write, "Oh hi Commander!". The quality will show.

 

Then there's the fact that the dev team was "gifted" End of Dragons part way through the Saga. We wrote this thing out to go another 3 or 4 episodes, but now our publisher is telling us that's no good and they want the saga done ASAP. That means rewrites, scrapped maps, assets, artwork, programs, music, voiced lines and so on. That's not all, we now have to work with a skeleton crew because it's all hands on deck for EoD. The remaining staff are great folks but we are understaffed.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to criticize Arenanet for how the Saga has been received. I'm diappointed too, and more likely than not, COVID-19 alone was not the only issue. Hell, I wish it was the only issue but it probably wasn't. We shouldn't be so eager to jump down one anothers throats and say, "No excuses!" It's not that simple.

My criticism in my previous posts in this thread are only about the writing and the effects of Covid.  I don't doubt that being away from an official office and such would hamper work, nor do I doubt that moving much of the existing teams from IBS to EoD had a similar o greater negative effect. 

See, I noticed the begining of the drop in story quality before Covid really hit, though it wasn't as pronounced as Champions was, so again I can only blame the current batch of writers.  I'd try and go into more but I've a doozy of a shift tonight and I gotta try to get extra sleep (fat chance).

[Lost in Hyrule.2963]

@rrusse.7058 I agree with your sentiments on constructive feedback vs bitter ranting. I don't think that is what caitybee was primarily expressing, though. 

16 hours ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

If you're not happy with the game, please find something else to play.

 

16 hours ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

They still do what we want when enough people complain about it, and some have the nerve to ask for more.

Both of these, to me, suggest any level of displeasure should not be expressed.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/4/2021 at 4:57 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

People have been claiming they don't care since vanilla. People always pull out the "they don't make me care" argument every time a story doesn't go 100% exactly as they wanted it to.

 

There is a huge difference between a story not going the way you wanted (re: personal expectations about the story's direction) versus a story just being told in an awful way (re: poor execution of a story idea).

 

Just putting that out there...

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[rrusse.7058]

42 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

See, I noticed the begining of the drop in story quality before Covid really hit, though it wasn't as pronounced as Champions was, so again I can only blame the current batch of writers.  I'd try and go into more but I've a doozy of a shift tonight and I gotta try to get extra sleep (fat chance).

Really? I'm curious to hear when you feel that drop was. I feel like many other would have some interesting perspectives on that topic. I'd have to sit down and think on it more in terms of where was the beginning of the low point for IBS. Good luck on that shift though where ever you're working.

 

@Lost in Hyrule.2963 I might have missed what @Caitybee.3614 is getting at then.

9 minutes ago, Lost in Hyrule.2963 said:

They still do what we want when enough people complain about it, and some have the nerve to ask for more.

Is it so much "asking for more" or is it players having different focuses and wanting to pinpoint on those things? Like a player may appreciate a certain update, for example I enjoyed the 'No Quarter' episode, but some WvW or PvP players might feel left out. Is that so much, asking for more or just players wanting something else for their gamemode?

[rrusse.7058]

7 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

There is a huge difference between a story not going the way you wanted (re: personal expectations about the story's direction) versus a story just being told in an awful way (re: horrible execution of a story idea).

Thank you! That's exactly what I was trying to get at, but some users want to claim it's a complaint that the story is not going in a direction I want it to. The story can be whatever it needs or wants to be, but most importantly it needs to be well told. It doesn't matter how many in-universe/lore reasons there are.

[slave to the grind.5028]

What I think is bizarre is the conjecture between lay-offs with covid-19 and not just the unfortunate trend in the software industry to fire people who are actually mission-critical to a solid product because "they cost too much money and I want to pad my benefits some more". I don't think we should be excusing the Activision/EA business model and giving them a get out of jail free card for that, just because there was a worldwide pandemic. The writing got worse before covid was even a thing.

 

Then you slap a fresh expac on an already diminished team and somehow, you, their boss, expects them to deliver a decent product instead of being completely overloaded with work and likely suffering the typical employee trap of "I have too many projects and I can't concentrate on them all, so I'm going to do all of them badly". It's an unfortunate fact of human behaviour and productivity as its consequence, that unless you are stringently aware of how your own mental processes work, if you are given too many tasks, you will attempt them all at once and fail badly at all of them.

Edited May 6, 2021 by slave to the grind.5028

[ugrakarma.9416]

46 minutes ago, slave to the grind.5028 said:

What I think is bizarre is the conjecture between lay-offs with covid-19 and not just the unfortunate trend in the software industry to fire people who are actually mission-critical to a solid product because "they cost too much money and I want to pad my benefits some more". I don't think we should be excusing the Activision/EA business model and giving them a get out of jail free card for that, just because there was a worldwide pandemic. The writing got worse before covid was even a thing.

the layouffs epidemic was very befor covid epidemic, first quarter 2019  https://www.pocketgamer.biz/job-news/70372/more-than-1500-people-have-lost-their-jobs-in-the-games-industry-in-three-months/

 

https://massivelyop.com/2019/02/25/guild-wars-2s-layoffs-has-begun-as-arenanet-devs-tweet-their-departures-and-fans-express-loveforarenanet/