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Reactions to the Finale, Judgment [Poll]


What is your reaction to the finale?  

236 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the ending to the Icebrood Saga, Champions - Chapter 4: Judgment?

    • Very Positive
      6
    • Positive
      16
    • Neutral
      44
    • Negative
      52
    • Very Negative
      118


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2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

 

There is a huge difference between a story not going the way you wanted (re: personal expectations about the story's direction) versus a story just being told in an awful way (re: poor execution of a story idea).

 

Just putting that out there...

 

 

This.

 

My problem isn't that the story didn't go the way I wanted, but the fact that it was poorly executed. I don't have anything against the main event (Jormag and Primordus dying together), but I don't like that the instance was too poor and too much was skipped in order to get this ending. Why aren't the dwarves present in the instance? Why hasn't Primordus cause any major catastrophe to give us the idea that we really need to stop him now or never, together with Jormag, else the world will end. And I'm not talking about DRM attacks. Make a story instance which sents us to a zone that is completely destroyed by Primodurs, a "we were too late, look at what damage he can cause if we don't stop him" scenario.

Make us go into the Depths of Tyria, it doesn't have to be 3-4-5-6-7 maps, it can be just an instance in which we go to investigate something there. There could have been so many ways to make this ending more appealing. But as it is now, Primordus is just a scapegoat, he was there just to die with Jormag, nothing else. If he died together with Jormag because he was too dangerous to be left alive, showing how big, bad and dangerous he is, then I wouldn't have had any complaints.

 

I don't want the story to go the way I want it to, for me the story in this game is like reading a book or watching a movie. I just want all the puzzle pieces to be put together correctly. Am I asking for too much?

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I hope this thread will stay and ArenaNet won't delete it, like the old one, which had tons of votes and over 150 comments.   I will post the same answer that I posted on the deleted thread

Patch was a slap in the face to us playing for over a decade. RIP GW, I'm done.

The lore is beyond buchered at this point. Just throw the entire game in the trash and start work on GW3. 

The old poll had two major issues, which probably lead to its removal:

- One of the options, the one with the highest number of entries was edited after most people already voted.

- The option was renamed from neutral "That was it?" into something like "this is trash!"

 

Many of those who selected "That was it?" did not consider the release trash. The issue was handled a little weird, as moderators should be able to edit posts on their own and lock the editing for users. Most forums I used in the past had similar features like that. They could have tried a lot of different options, before considering removal. It created a huge impact and brought back the old "They do not allow critique on their board!" hoax. Most of the active users know that this is not true. As long as the threads and posts stay civilized, they tolerate walls of rants.

 

-

 

"That was it?"

 

Jormag, nemesis of the Norn, but only a few Norn were participating. None of the important ones, not even Whitebear or at least the Raven Havroun. We have Jhavi, leader of the Vigil, who salutes to a powerless Commander without any real dialogue. Jormag was part of her legacy, too.

 

Primordus, nemesis of the Asura, but only a few Asura were participating. The Asura are the highest advanced race in Tyria. They have tons of weaponry, golems and generations of angry and motivated people, who would love to contribute to that Elder Dragons final moments. Important Asura? Nope. Taimi was there :S.

 

The Mastery System was quite disappointing. They have locked the loot of the DRMs and the finale behind Masteries. I like the Raven Masteries, I love the United Legions Masteries, but Dragon Slayer? It feels like Dragon Looter to me. If you want those Dragon Eye Infusions, you have to unlock the final tier of the Dragon Slayer Masteries. Then you get an extremely low chance for a random drop from the daily (account-wide) chest of the Dragonstorm meta. 🤨

 

I do not mind getting kicked around like a ping-pong ball by a superior enemy. But according to the 'concept' we are a champion as well. Probably a lot more powerful due to our super-powerful Elder Dragon and our rather intense relationship with her. She absorbed so much energy, has the powers of all three dead Elder Dragons, Balthazar and technically even a small portion of Primordus' energy. But for some very weird reason, the Commander is made of cardboard :S.

 

And the map is rather small and has way too many invisible walls.

-

 

The meta-event itself is well done in my opinion. You can do the story with a public squad, then join the story-instance for the final part (solo).

 

One of the few Worldbosses which are fun to do, especially on a support-build.

 

It does not take an eternity to complete, like the Drizzlewood Coast meta. Barely 15-20 minutes and you are done. Even without the Dragon Slayer Mastery, the reward is great - worth running once per day.

 

The achievements which can unlock the missing MP are acceptable. Many can be collected on the way with public squads. 

 

The attack-patterns of the Champions (and the dragons) are very well designed. They have beautiful animations. The combat feels amazing.

 

After more than one week, I still enjoy my daily Dragonstorm meta. Normally I lose interest with such tasks after half a week. But Dragonstorm really hit the mark. Very well done. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Jormag, nemesis of the Norn, but only a few Norn were participating. None of the important ones, not even Whitebear or at least the Raven Havroun. We have Jhavi, leader of the Vigil, who salutes to a powerless Commander without any real dialogue. Jormag was part of her legacy, too.

There wouldn't be a lot of Norn involved becuase Norn are largely individual hunters trying to make their legend. It was Braham who cracked the tooth, as such, the Norn believed it was his job to kill Jormag, not theirs. And it was Drakkar who was part of Jhavi's legacy, and Jhavi got her revenge on Drakkar back in episode 2, and was there for the final battle in Dragonstorm.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

There wouldn't be a lot of Norn involved becuase Norn are largely individual hunters trying to make their legend. It was Braham who cracked the tooth, as such, the Norn believed it was his job to kill Jormag, not theirs. And it was Drakkar who was part of Jhavi's legacy, and Jhavi got her revenge on Drakkar back in episode 2, and was there for the final battle in Dragonstorm.

  1. You totally missed the part where Taimi reported that Braham had gathered an army of Norn who would follow him (after he cracked the Tooth) to go and kill Jormag. And then everyone was miffed to find that Jormag had been put back to sleep. Braham even scolds the Commander over this when they reunite on Istan.
  2. Jhavi has been a story prop, a mere plot device. There is no depth to the character at all. Whether she was there or not did not make a difference in any way, because the presentation of the character (or rather the lack thereof) was a complete joke - as exciting as watching a grain of rice falling out of the sack.
Edited by Ashantara.8731
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:
  1. You totally missed the part of Taimi reporting to us that Braham had gathered an army of Norn that followed him (after he cracked the Tooth) to go and kill Jormag. And then everyone was miffed to find that Jormag had been put back to sleep. Braham even scolds the Commander over this when they reunite on Istan.
  2. Jhavi has been a story prop, a mere plot device. There is no depth to the character at all. Whether she was there or not did not make a difference in any way, because the presentation of the character (or rather the lack thereof) was a complete joke. As exciting as a grain of rice falling out of the sack.

He didn't gather an army. He gathered a small hunting party of like 5 people(typical of the Norn) Braham even talks about said party, and we meet some of them, in IBS. In fact, the Norn don't do armies, this is something repeatedly hammered into players in both GW1 and GW2.

 

So you are saying that a character has to be massively important to the plot in order to count, and that there can't just be people who have motivations, and do things, but are otherwise not massively key figures in the narrative? Thank god you aren't writing anything because that isn't how characters work in any narrative.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

He didn't gather an army. He gathered a small hunting party of like 5 people(typical of the Norn) Braham even talks about said party, and we meet some of them, in IBS. In fact, the Norn don't do armies, this is something repeatedly hammered into players in both GW1 and GW2.

 

So you are saying that a character has to be massively important to the plot in order to count, and that there can't just be people who have motivations, and do things, but are otherwise not massively key figures in the narrative?

  1. Okay, a large group at least, I thought, not just a small hunting party. You sure about the numbers? If so, my bad.
  2. Jhavi's only active purpose in the IBS was to yell commands during events. The character has zero depth. Everything remotely interesting that has happened to/with her happened off-screen and was told to us afterwards in short, boring texts. You call that compelling writing worth of a descendant of Jora??

Edit re (1.):

  • "It is generally believed that if a hero manages to damage the fang, that hero will rally the norn and they would be capable of defeating Jormag once and for all to reclaim their northern homelands." (source)
  • "At this time, Braham had managed to enter Jormag's territory with his norn guild [...]" (source)

That's why I mismatched the information in my head. I remembered the legend, but apparently Braham did not rally the Norn but only a group of them. I now recall the fact, sorry, and Taimi telling us they called themselves Destiny's Edge in honor of his mother.

Edited by Ashantara.8731
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5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

He didn't gather an army. He gathered a small hunting party of like 5 people(typical of the Norn) Braham even talks about said party, and we meet some of them, in IBS. In fact, the Norn don't do armies, this is something repeatedly hammered into players in both GW1 and GW2.

Yet, Norn are all over the place, like the Vigil. The "Race x doesn't do behaviour Y"-argument is flat out invalid when looking at the ingame universe. And even IF that were true: Having Norn reduced to a simple race trait would be the epitomy of bad writing.

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

So you are saying that a character has to be massively important to the plot in order to count, and that there can't just be people who have motivations, and do things, but are otherwise not massively key figures in the narrative? Thank god you aren't writing anything because that isn't how characters work in any narrative.

 

Stop strawmanning. And please stop insulting people over arguments they never made in the first place.

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Personally, I didn't mind the story fight. Haven't played it in zerg mode, so I don't know how that feels yet, but I don't have any harsh criticisms about the gameplay or unfolding the fight itself.

The story was very, very disappointing. Things were too sudden. No inklings of these concepts were seeded throughout the DRMs, where they easily could have (and should have) been. I'm also pretty firmly in the "Primordus should have been the last Dragon alive" camp, but that decision doesn't matter to me as much as the deus ex machina they were forced to use.

If there was ever any evidence that IBD was upended from within the company, the finale was it. I'm mostly okay with just moving on from it, but I also wouldn't mind seeing some dev thoughts on it.

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I do tend to think people complain too much, but when a major arc is wrapped up this quickly, the results are never going to be great. Though I think part of me was relieved for it to just be over, given how drawn-out the DRM phases have made it feel (even though it really wasn't).

 

Still, there was a new map, sorta, which I was thinking there might not be. It did have a reasonably epic battle on it, at least as much as you could reasonably have hoped. And I guess now we have to hope EoD makes up for the abridgement of IBS. I assume they didn't really want to do that, but maybe the business situation didn't leave any better alternatives.

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The the rewards from the IBS and Finale could have been better. In fact, I would have reversed what we got.

 

Most of us players are probably  swimming in Ascended gear. We don't really need an ascended amulet that gives us an ice/fire hands effect from just the temporary DRMS buff. I appreciate the intention and I wish the eye infusion was the gift because it seems the drop rate for the second one you get after the one you get from the AP, is incredibly rare. Why give us one and then make the second almost impossible? Its quite ironically... spitting in our eye.

 

As an alternative maybe the eye infusion could not be RNG and would be an AP numbered farm drop: Complete Dragonstorm XYZ times + the misc APs of the instance and BAM there you go.  I just don't understand the logic behind giving us the rewards like this.

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On 5/5/2021 at 3:26 PM, Tatwi.3562 said:

 

- Constant knockdown spam

 

I will agree that the constant meteors with double the amount of knockdowns/knock backs was IMO ridiculous. Fields of ruin has me being all "inflatable flailing arm man" from all the CC. We'd need 2 or 3 (or more) stun breakers to get out of one or two meteors. The last fight with Ryland had me flying around like a ragdoll every second. It wasn't very fun. I literally started laughing and counting the amount of times HE was cc'ing me. They need to revise the meteors and have just the initial impact knockback and just the wave cause burning.

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21 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

 

 

I don't want the story to go the way I want it to, for me the story in this game is like reading a book or watching a movie. I just want all the puzzle pieces to be put together correctly. Am I asking for too much?

I wouldn't mind an epilogue also in addendum to your points.  Where were the asura, skritt and dwarves? In their mind maybe they thought the manner in which they included them were good enough and to that I say they were misguided. To check off the list we get "Asura" in the form of the Arcane Council consult, Metrica Province DRM and Taimi's involvement, for the skritt we get the skritt DRM allies, for the dwarves and going deeper into the earth we get the dwarf allies and the DRM into Thunderhead keep. 

 

To the players, that's not it and does not satisfy the story debt to many of us. So I will agree that I'm totally fine with Primordus and Jormag ultimately killing eachother with Aurene's deus ex machina ley sniper trap but just like Game of Thrones' last season , if you just shoehorn all the story beats its neither satisfying or logical per the lore and the character arcs.

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Browsing through the posts. So much resentment! From what I can read, I wonder why many of them are still playing something by ArenaNet. It's the Internet . . .

I was one of those who voted 'negative', and it has not changed. GW2 is a good game. The IBS, without Champions, was not my favourite, but on par with Seasons 2, 3 and 4. With Champions though . . . it takes a hit.

Someone was claiming earlier that companies like ArenaNet might ignore what is on their forums and rely solely on in-game data. I hope not. Yes, forums should be taken with a grain of salt, for it is the logical place to go for people with an axe to grind. I could see how reading them could be demoralising. They are nevertheless a valid place for feedback. In-game data indicates what activities are popular, but not why they are popular. Are DRMs wildly popular because (a) they are a fun activity, (b) we are farming resources off them, or (c) we are still collecting precious achievement progress? For me, it is most definitely (c). I dread EoD going the DRM route.

Is COVID-19 to blame? Possibly. We had Episode 2 released in January 2020. To me Episodes 2, 3 and 4 were generally comparable to earlier work. We saw how important voice acting was to the storytelling, but beyond that, ArenaNet seems to have pulled a decent job despite the circumstances. Not so with episode 5, Champions. I am repeating myself: GW2 PvE is at its best in big open-world metas on interesting maps and with good loot. Why force us in a five-people format when the game is designed around not having a tank-healer-DPS trinity?
As for Primordius being summarily disposed of, I do not have strong opinions. One of the strengths of GW2's overaching plot is that it is a focused struggle against Elder Dragons. Everything else is accessory. Given how the story had gone since vanilla, it was written in the sky that Primordius' and Jormag's life expectancy beyond the end of the IBS was not exactly looking good. Was Primordus' demise unsatisfying? Yes. Should we blame the writers or the producers?

In the best of cases, I hope that Champions was the result of rushed deadlines and poorly allocated resources combined with 'test balloons' to see how the player base reacts to new gaming formats.

Please, ArenaNet, keep up good work, but also move away from the Champions model for EoD. I dare hope the player base is behind that and ArenaNet will take the message.

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Posted (edited)

I think I'd be perfectly fine with the finale if they made a few changes:

- Replace Jormag's kiss of death with an actual, traditional Guild Wars 2 cinematic that shows more fighting between the dragons before the finishing blow.

- Add voiced dialog to the characters you talk to at the end, instead of LS2-style textboxes.

- Add a trailer for End of Dragons after the finale, like the other stories.

 

I think these changes alone would radically increase the quality of the finale.

 

Another change I would make is to make the story (not public) version longer. its way too short for an entire chapter, taking less than 20mins. The story version could have more events, more stuff going on and be extended to at least twice that long, without upsetting the daily runners.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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While I can understand the pandemic situation and the resources that may have been pulled out for EOD, it still doesn't excuse what we got.

 

If they did not have the time and energy to present a decent ending to a decade long story in the making, they could (should) have shelved the Jormag / Primordus resolution for later. 

 

This was Games of Thrones finale all over again where the need to wrap thinks up quickly won over everything else. Jormag falling for such a ridicuolous con was plain unbelievable considering how cuning and manipulative it was shown to be and how understanding of Aurene's power potential it was. The end of these 2 dragons deserved an entire expansion to resolve, like Zaithan and Mordremoth had, not a quick handwaving wet fart like what we got.

 

The Ryland conclusion was good. So was the cinematics. The rest was WAY too short and often contrived. The plot armor evolution for the game also seems to mirror GoT evolution. This should have been an epic finale hyping us toward EOD. It was not at all...

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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2021 at 10:00 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

 

 

Another change I would make is to make the story (not public) version longer. its way too short for an entire chapter, taking less than 20mins. The story version could have more events, more stuff going on and be extended to at least twice that long, without upsetting the daily runners.

Completely agree. We just worked our butts off on getting allies and succeeding in the DRMS you mean to tell me that's irrelevant now? I would have loved to be in in a story instance where Jormag and Primordus tried to be a bit crafty in hampering our involvement and so we use the ALLY abilities in order to XYZ damage* CC* etc whatever to cause an effect.

 

In the story instance for example-

 

Crystal bloom- rally 10 injured civilians to the crystal to be healed.

Kodan-Kill 5 Jormag enemies using ice Hammers.

Sylvari- CC and takedown barricades with Fern Hounds.

 

So on and so forth. An Instance where we use ALL of the allies: the ultimate DRM. That would have been pretty epic IMO then sure make the World Boss version simpler...or not.

Edited by HotDelirium.7984
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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2021 at 10:19 AM, Sirbeaumerdier.3740 said:

While I can understand the pandemic situation and the resources that may have been pulled out for EOD, it still doesn't excuse what we got.

 

If they did not have the time and energy to present a decent ending to a decade long story in the making, they could (should) have shelved the Jormag / Primordus resolution for later. 

 

This was Games of Thrones finale all over again where the need to wrap thinks up quickly won over everything else. Jormag falling for such a ridicuolous con was plain unbelievable considering how cuning and manipulative it was shown to be and how understanding of Aurene's power potential it was. The end of these 2 dragons deserved an entire expansion to resolve, like Zaithan and Mordremoth had, not a quick handwaving wet fart like what we got.

 

The Ryland conclusion was good. So was the cinematics. The rest was WAY too short and often contrived. The plot armor evolution for the game also seems to mirror GoT evolution. This should have been an epic finale hyping us toward EOD. It was not at all...

 

Repercussions are everything in storytelling and sure, not every chapter of every story does someone need to die.

Maybe have third degree burns on Braham's arms; not dead but heavily effected and now out of commission for awhile.

Are the corrupted spirits no longer corrupted?

 

We are waiting....

Edited by HotDelirium.7984
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