I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]

[Clex Mix.7624]

23 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

@Clex Mix.7624You're not seriously expecting me to write up an entire design document stating exactly which item should be obtained from which achievement and/or boss.. right?
 

I.. have no idea what you mean with that.

What I’m getting at is you can’t really shoot down someone’s assumption when you don’t really explain the breadth of what you deem admittable via achievements.

 

 

as to the second part... the community isn’t going to dictate what ANET offers as in-game rewards. Example... your idea on how to obtain the raptor skin. 

 

As it stands there are far too many variables to consider when trying to evaluate the worth of a cosmetic item as it pertains to level of difficulty of in-game activities.

[Malitias.8453]

2 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

What I’m getting at is you can’t really shoot down someone’s assumption when you don’t really explain the breadth of what you deem admittable via achievements.

 

 

as to the second part... the community isn’t going to dictate what ANET offers as in-game rewards. Example... your idea on how to obtain the raptor skin. 

 

As it stands there are far too many variables to consider when trying to evaluate the worth of a cosmetic item as it pertains to level of difficulty of in-game activities.

Isn't your 2nd and 3rd paragraph defeating the 1st?

[Clex Mix.7624]

19 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Isn't your 2nd and 3rd paragraph defeating the 1st?

No. You want to make the argument that by adding a sub and by extension rewards for in-game activities automatically means gem store items. My point being who says it has to be current gem store cosmetics, what’s to keep anet from giving completely different skins or quite possibly reused skins with just a slight variation? You simply left it at “more items”. So unless you  want to say what is worth it to you, which I assume you meant gem store items, you can’t try and tell me that my assumption of which somehow doesn’t pertain to your post.

 

So again, to make it clearer... if I was right in my assumption that you meant you want GEM STORE items to be said rewards for achievements, the community isn’t going to get a say as to which items they’d be nor as to which achievements that would yield a cosmetic reward.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Clex Mix.7624

[Malitias.8453]

1 minute ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

So again, to make it clearer... if I was right in my assumption that you meant you want GEM STORE items to be said rewards for achievements, the community isn’t going to get a say as to which items they’d be nor as to which achievements that would yield a cosmetic reward.

And that's different if they create entirely new items? For those we get a say as to how we can obtain them?

[Clex Mix.7624]

1 minute ago, Malitias.8453 said:

And that's different if they create entirely new items? For those we get a say as to how we can obtain them?

Jesus...

Lets assume any of this actually matters for a moment... 

As a player... you aren’t going to have any sway as to anets decision as to what items/cosmetics that would be a reward for any achievements.

 

You either like the reward... or don’t. Up to you to decide if you want to keep paying for the hypothetical sub at that point or not. But you sure as sh’t won’t get them to cater the rewards to your liking. 

 

Hypothetical being the key word.

[Malitias.8453]

2 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Jesus...

Lets assume any of this actually matters for a moment... 

As a player... you aren’t going to have any sway as to anets decision as to what items/cosmetics that would be a reward for any achievements.

 

You either like the reward... or don’t. Up to you to decide if you want to keep paying for the hypothetical sub at that point or not. But you sure as sh’t won’t get them to cater the rewards to your liking. 

 

Hypothetical being the key word.

Hey, you're the one that wanted to go into details about the which achievement and what reward, not me.
Getting that to feel right is for the design department to get a headache over, right? I mean, that's their job. Literally.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Malitias.8453 said:

I.. have no idea what you mean with that.

Probably that a lot of people seem to assume that going sub would suddenly change the way game is developed. That the money from the sub would go towards what sub supporters would be interested in. Which is a massive assumption.

 

I mean, there were at some point in time players that were buying stuff from gemshop thinking that by doing that they contribute to the development of the game. Turns out Anet used that money to fund some completely unrelated projects (that eventually bombed). The same would be with sub - sure, it would create some new source of income for the company (although it is highly debatable if it would cover the losses from gemshop caused by some customers leaving due to the sub introduction), but the players would nave neither control, or even knowledge on where that money would go.

There's however one thing i am 100% certain of - the gemshop would not go away.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Clex Mix.7624]

3 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Hey, you're the one that wanted to go into details about the which achievement and what reward, not me.
Getting that to feel right is for the design department to get a headache over, right? I mean, that's their job. Literally.

Then why are you trying to make the argument “I’d pay a sub if more items were available as in-game rewards”? 

 

This is where the problem lies with this asinine topic. You either mean solely gem store items (which seems fair to assume because y’all want to btch about the gold cost associated with them) or somehow you think this game doesn’t reward playing.

 

If it’s the former how in the flux do you expect anet to quantifiably decide such rewards and gauge the difficulty of achievements for the community as a whole? Because let’s face it, lazy mediocre players are going to complain and probably still have to fork over gold to get cosmetics like they do in WoW by paying players to carry them to get them.

 

If it’s the latter, I’d refer to the lazy part. This game puts out what you give into it. I think expecting certain rewards for mediocrity is either naive or self fulfilling narcissism at best. 

 

If you can’t be bothered to go into detail as to what YOU deem worthy of YOUR money... why in the hell would anet bother to even remotely come close? Do you not see the problem with demanding change when it’s too much for you to even put the effort forth yourself? When they already have a working model? Google narcissism. 

[Malitias.8453]

6 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Then why are you trying to make the argument “I’d pay a sub if more items were available as in-game rewards”? 

Because I'd pay a sub if more items were available as in-game rewards.
 

11 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

If it’s the former how in the flux do you expect anet to quantifiably decide such rewards and gauge the difficulty of achievements for the community as a whole?

The same way anyone puts rewards in their games. You look at the theme, the level of challenge and adjust the "flashiness" accordingly.

 

15 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

If it’s the latter, I’d refer to the lazy part. This game puts out what you give into it. I think expecting certain rewards for mediocrity is either naive or self fulfilling narcissism at best. 

Yeay, and here we go with starting to insult people as narcissists, because there's some sort of disagreement.
 

 

19 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

If you can’t be bothered to go into detail as to what YOU deem worthy of YOUR money... why in the hell would anet bother to even remotely come close? Do you not see the problem with demanding change when it’s too much for you to even put the effort forth yourself? When they already have a working model? Google narcissism. 

Again with the narcissism. Is it your favorite thing to say about people? "You disagree with me so you're a narcissist!"
So you do want me to write up a document stating exactly where I would put which item or introduce a mechanic to achieve it.
I mean, you obviously don't want just a few examples, because I already gave those and you even referred to one of them.

What's your goal here? You want me to give more examples while also saying:

1 hour ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

the community isn’t going to dictate what ANET offers as in-game rewards. Example... your idea on how to obtain the raptor skin. 

 

[kharmin.7683]

5 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

The point I - and the rest of those who actually happen to read more than the most up-voted comments - am stating is that the gameplay isn't rewarded, not that I feel too wealthy and want to steadily give my money away.
 

And you believe that a subscription based model would help improve gameplay rewards?

[Clex Mix.7624]

4 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Because I'd pay a sub if more items were available as in-game rewards.
 

The same way anyone puts rewards in their games. You look at the theme, the level of challenge and adjust the "flashiness" accordingly.

 

Yeay, and here we go with starting to insult people as narcissists, because there's some sort of disagreement.
 

 

Again with the narcissism. Is it your favorite thing to say about people? "You disagree with me so you're a narcissist!"
So you do want me to write up a document stating exactly where I would put which item or introduce a mechanic to achieve it.
I mean, you obviously don't want just a few examples, because I already gave those and you even referred to one of them.

What's your goal here? You want me to give more examples while also saying:

 

The entirety of the game is centered around rewards... some are drops.. some are crafted from drops... some are purchased with currency that are.. well drops. 

 

Why don’t you you just come out and say “I want to do as little as possible and get everything” Or if you’re simply after gem store cosmetics, which you’ve yet to admit to, then simply buy them now... stop expecting the ENTIRE community to adhere to YOUR conception of what you deem worthy of your time or money...hence why you’re a narcissist.

 

Let me put it in perspective. Since you think a sub is or would have been a better option, then right now drop $1700 on the gem store. What sub would have cost since launch. Then buy whatever you want with the gems. That’d be about 136,000 gems. And don’t make the excuse “well I haven’t played since launch” or “I took breaks” because some people have played the whole time since launch. 

 

So unless you’re either willing to admit you’re feckless and upset that you don’t get things handed to you or willing to pay for other people’s subs you’ve yet to present a remotely decent argument for as to why the other hundreds of thousand of players should suddenly pay a fee on a game they’ve invested THEIR time into over the last 9 years. So yeah... it’s coming back to narcissism on your part mate.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

2 hours ago, alccode.1297 said:

 

Great points, thanks for putting the time in writing it all up! This is a very fascinating issue and the various facets you pointed out all make sense. I just wonder if there is more of this in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. I think there are some arguable points in the realm of 'objectivity' (where many of us can perhaps hope to come to an agreement) and some that are simply in the realm of 'subjectivity' (and neither 'right' nor 'wrong' but just a matter of personal taste/preference), and hence can be delegated to the realm of "potatoes vs potahtoes".

 

In terms of "objectivity" (or perhaps historicity) the main thing I'd like to suggest is that the reason GW2 is F2P in the first place is that it didn't have a devoted fanbase or "hook" to make people keep coming. Or rather, it didn't when it first came out. The two main subscription-based MMOs I can think of that are comparable to GW2 are of course WoW and FFXIV. For the former, it was the grand-daddy of MMOs and was sub-based from the very beginning, and built up a great following that is just accustomed to subbing, and will continue doing so no matter what. For the latter, it's the weight of the Final Fantasy name and brand that attracted players - as well as a not-so-hidden design philosophy to copy WoW as much as possible to recover from the fiasco of the first version of the game - which of course then included subscriptions. Interestingly, FFXIV has many cosmetic items that sell for a lot of money ($18 USD for an outfit!!) and presumably people pay hand over fist for this, as well as pay a monthly subscription. They can get away with it because of, well, Final Fantasy. Yet when GW2 came out, ANet presumably wanted to expand its playerbase beyond the GW1 days, and make a killer MMO. (Indeed, calling it Guild Wars 2 may have not been the best choice, but I digress). They couldn't do that if most people would just say "Huh? What's a Guild Wars 2? Oh there's a monthly fee? Naaaah".

 

Now, there is a slight plot twist here, because whenever we talk about a F2P vs subscription based model, we have to be careful to remember that GW2 only went fully F2P in 2015, around 3 years after release. And although it wasn't designed as a sub-based game from the beginning, it did have an up front cost which would presumably have been a barrier for the "pure F2P" type players who literally don't want to spend a cent. Thus, some "commitment" was required to play the game, somewhat akin to a sub-based model (though, of course, not being a recurrent fee). 

 

In any case, I believe that ANet (correctly) did not use a sub-based model from the beginning because the player base would have been much smaller than it was, and/or because they wanted to continue the GW1 design philosophy in terms of ensuring a persistent world but only charging a fee for the initial game. Of course, this ended up benefiting them in terms of attracting players who don't necessarily want to play a sub-based game but are interested in an MMO and are willing to pay for the game up front.

 

Later down the line, with a stagnating or dwindling playerbase, they may have decided to go F2P in order to increase the number of players. Of course, this brings in now an entirely new philosophy as you pointed out, in terms of having vastly more shiny things in the gem store than anything that can be earned in game (with the arguable exception of the raid armour which is just as shiny as anything in the gemstore). And I won't lie if I say I wasn't a bit disappointed in this. Indeed, I took a break from GW2 the past couple of years (for totally unrelated reasons) and only recently came back, and was a bit dismayed to see so many shiny gem store outfits out and about in the world. I liked Fashion Wars being just a creative challenge to combine things readily available and earn-able in-game into an awesome look. Being able to buy a super shiny outfit kind of defeated the purpose in it. I do struggle now to continue wanting to play the Fashion Wars side of things partly because of this. 

Anyhoo, my main point here is that GW2 was not built up as a F2P game from the beginning, and its systems are not designed around that, as much as we might think, since even from the beginning, you had to buy the game, so there was still a source of guaranteed income for developers to allow them to creatively design new content (as you say is the benefit of a sub-based game). That is, the fundamental game reward mechanics are NOT strictly F2P based. All these gem store additions are strictly speaking, addons from a game mechanics point of view. Now, perhaps we are starting to see some troubling exceptions, like the templates fiasco (as you pointed out). Yet, we can still say that most of the game's design is not a F2P based model, per se, as I'll get into now.

 

Like I said, I recently came back to GW2 after a hiatus. One of things I did during the hiatus was get deeply into WoW, and played through the past two expansions and up to the latest content in Shadowlands (including M+ and raiding). I ultimately stopped for various reasons which included elitism in groups and preferring to play tanks but feeling like a tank has to study and master the entirety of the dungeon/raid mechanics for optimal runs which kind of defeated the purpose of playing a game for fun (for me, at least). Most importantly of all, though, the daily grind was too much (or rather, too little/too boring).. There was only a handful of things one had to do, either get the highest ilvl gear, or grind enough anima to unlock various things. There weren't that many things to "chase after", so to speak, and I quickly got bored once I got to a 'good enough level'.

 

Fast forward to today. Coming back to GW2, I was just blown away by how many purely in-game chaseable things exist. The other day I wanted to complete a mastery point somewhere in Elona and the NPC gave me a collection achievement to do it (!!) That really made my day, since I love collecting and chasing after things when they are set out for me. The collections for legendaries are just so juicy for me to do. I like that kind of thing. My achievements watchlist in GW2 has all sorts of random things. I realized finally that By Raven, there's no end to Tyria! (as my Norn likes to often point out). Incidentally this is why I believe guilds are so crucial in WoW, to provide that social drive/pressure to keep playing when you get stuck in the "endgame gear treadmill", in a way that GW2 does not need. I will never run out of things to do in GW2 if I factor in the limited amount time I can actually devote to playing (that anyone can relate to, I think, unless they spend their entire day, every day, playing).

 

I can craft a legendary, and that can take up so much time and requirements that span the gamut of "merely" grinding out mat farming, to various collection achievements, map completion, WvW, etc. etc. And then, a new expansion is going to come out? With a whole new set of legendaries, a whole new set of elite specializations, so that I can now reshuffle my character lineup again, and grind out all the ascended crafting, legendary crafting, RP design, outfit design, gameplay roles (this guy will now be my conquest guy, that guy will now be my WvW guy since I want to try this build, etc etc)...? Easily 3+ years more of playtime for me, at least.

 

This brings me up to the second major theme I wanted to bring up, the "subjectivity" part. Actually, I totally agree with OP. Yes, if I grind gold endlessly, of course I will get bored. And, I might even say "I'd rather have a sub-based model to force me to play, because my self-imposed gameplay loop has gotten stale." But I don't think sub-based vs F2P is the entirety of the issue or even the right way to look at it, precisely because GW2 is not designed as a F2P game from the start, and has so many things to chase. As a side note, the reason there are so many achievements and things to chase, I believe, is because ANet made the design choice to not have an endless gear-driven endgame grind. They saw (correctly) that having the endgame just be grinding out the highest ilvl gear gets very boring and stale. So they expanded with all sorts of things to chase that are not strictly gear-driven. The fact that they went F2P was not to change their basic game model, per se. It was to encourage more people to play. 

 

The reason OP is bored is because he has chosen to only grind gold in order to get all the items he needs, and/or hasn't explored the achievements side of the game. I could also choose to grind Auric Basin meta every day to earn enough gold to buy all the mats and things I need for my legendaries and other gear. But I choose not to, because I know I will be burned out and quit easily.

 

Instead, I toil as a "pleb" (as someone on a reddit post pointed out vis-a-vis those who actually go through the trouble of farming for mats in the world) and do my daily iron, platinum, and mithril ore rich vein farming. That, too, can get boring and stale, but at least I then have the choice to switch it up. On the days I am really not feeling it, then yes, I do jump into Auric Basin or Silverwastes and do a few runs, just to shake things up. I will then buy my mithril and make my daily Deldrimor Steel Ingot or whatever. But then I go back to trudging through the snow and fighting off spiders to farm the nodes the next day. In the process of doing that I might even catch a map-wide message asking for help with some meta event, and then off I go and participate. Or let's say that while fighting off undead fish in Orr to get to an underwater mithril node, someone posts "pact network agent is at [WP]" Ooh! Then I go check it out, see what I'm missing, check GW2 wiki, and get reminded that "oh I should really work on my chef, there are too many recipes I'm still missing..." There's no end to Tyria...  It's just more fun that way. It certainly beats grinding the same events every day just for gold. 

 

So, to wrap it up, I think there are aspects to this debate that are grounded in "sub-vs-F2P" type arguments (of which GW2 is not strictly in the F2P camp in the first place, in terms of design from the ground up), and others that are personal preferences/decisions on how to play the game. My suggestion is we shouldn't mix these two up. It's fine to say "I am bored of grinding gold [because that's the way I choose to play the game]". It's NOT fine (or rather, does not logically follow) to then say, "... and THEREFORE, the game should be sub-based." It just doesn't follow, it's apples and oranges, and I hope this super lengthy post helps shed light on why I believe this is the case.

The singular best and the worst thing about ideas is that they very easily spark other ideas, and trying to respond to each and the amount even after merely a few breaths devoted to their exponential growth is wondrously incomprehensible.
It's not unlike trying to point out "which" of the wind's currents is currently fighting one's chest, and putting an open palm in front of oneself to catch it effortlessly spawns six other flows in a most elegant display of defiance against such a pursuit.
A grin in appreciation. Feels better than finally completing Pharus.

As for catching at least the name of the wind, if not outright its phone number, I've said (somewhere) before that I only started playing fairly late into the game's life, so I don't really know how the Gem Store looked at the original launch.
From what I gathered watching TotalBiscuit's Beta coverage, the Gem Store was rather empty - dye packs, minis, Transmutation stones, a couple of real world fashion items like top hats and aviator/reading/wide rim glasses (proving that GW2 never had any artistic cohesion to begin with)... But that was just Beta, no clue about after the game's release.
But if the Gem Store was as empty at release as during the Beta stages, that would more than suggest that ANet were counting with monetary sustenance for at least some time going forward without relying on Gems, meaning the initial plan was entertaining people.
So, true, GW2 might've not been built as a F2P game, but it certainly is a F2P game now, because things evolve - players not liking the game leave, players enjoying it stay, the developer's analytics show which way the community leans, which turns into more things that people like... a couple of these cycles and the community crystalizes, with clearly defined contours and color palette, and the rest of the playerbase is an afterthought at best.
Which is completely normal, isn't it? As Obtena said a couple of posts back, it's absolutely true that if the current monetization model weren't working, GW2 wouldn't be here after almost nine years, still relatively lively and kicking.
People always have the ability to vote with their wallets. The fact they're not doing anything points at a much deeper flaw in today's society, not at a single video game developer owned by a larger company which probably limits many of the devs' decisions in the first place.

The subjective part of... anything is arguably impossible to debate.
Looking at the bigger picture of Your gaming style, You seem to have no issue with disregarding the optimal way of doing things in favor of enjoying the game.
Not an insult in any way; I salute You.
Took me many a frown - and spine straightening - to realize, and, although a quick learner, I'm pretty sure I'll end up with not merely a single line on my forehead with "supposed to" signed as the author. Live and learn, hm?
Before I started playing to enjoy myself, though, there was always this weird nudging telling me that I should be doing something else, something that would bring me closer to the goal in a much shorter time - why bother going for Tequatl and dailies, if the two only award 4 gold, when I can be jumping the Winter Wonderland for so much more; why do map completion, if farming Dragonfall/Drizzlewood and turning the gold into gems yields many more keys per minute spent; and, the worst case, why play the game at all if working even for a minimum wage and buying gold with Gems is incomparably more efficient?
There's something to be said about the last idea and games that encourage something of the sort, but... different shoes for different tunes.
The idea is that I didn't choose it, not anymore than a football player breaks a leg.
An absurd amount of psychological manipulation goes into every single thing being sold - MMORPGs are getting their autopsy here, but look at the big eyes and heads reminiscent of human babies on Disney princesses and in anime, or a beautiful young girl smiling from a billboard regardless of the goods being advertised, or why the entire pop music industry revolves around four chords and just slightly different songs.
Not everybody has their wits about them at all times, especially during the forming years, and we all carry an astonishing amount of dead weight from those experiences that sometimes won't get noticed for the rest of our lives. I keep bringing up the idea of being wrong being wrong, but even something as "small" as being bullied by somebody with tattoos can twist a person's view of tattoos for the rest of their life, even though an intradermal pigment injection has nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
And instead of trying to understand, we look for consolation in numbers, create echo chambers for ideas we refuse to confront, which leads to back pats and ignorance in the best case, or bona fide inquisitions in the worst.

But here You are. Instead of a torch and a cross, You bring an explanation.
The hell is wrong with You, human!?
Granted, in case You ever need a sparring partner for a cup of tea, I'm game.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

18 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

And you believe that a subscription based model would help improve gameplay rewards?

Hah, I wish.
Perhaps - perhaps! - if it's been here from the very beginning, but at this point it would do naught but decimate the playerbase.
I'm sure there are people who'd conclude GW2 is worth a sub fee even in the current state, but I can't imagine they're numerous enough to carry the game through basically starting anew.

Who knows? With better advertisement, better rewards, fixed everything... Even if ANet were willing to take such a leap of faith, NCSoft would cut them short in an instant.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Hah, I wish.
Perhaps - perhaps! - if it's been here from the very beginning, but at this point it would do naught but decimate the playerbase.
I'm sure there are people who'd conclude GW2 is worth a sub fee even in the current state, but I can't imagine they're numerous enough to carry the game through basically starting anew.

Who knows? With better advertisement, better rewards, fixed everything... Even if ANet were willing to take such a leap of faith, NCSoft would cut them short in an instant.

So with this post you admit that the arguing back and forth starting with the OP is pointless?

[Clex Mix.7624]

1 minute ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Hah, I wish.
Perhaps - perhaps! - if it's been here from the very beginning, but at this point it would do naught but decimate the playerbase.
I'm sure there are people who'd conclude GW2 is worth a sub fee even in the current state, but I can't imagine they're numerous enough to carry the game through basically starting anew.

Who knows? With better advertisement, better rewards, fixed everything... Even if ANet were willing to take such a leap of faith, NCSoft would cut them short in an instant.

Literally within the first month Primeval armor was in the gemstore, then other “sets” all of which required to be xmog’d individually. Bank expansion, inventory, character slots all in the first month. Then it was infinite gathering tools. The only thing you could say about the gemstore is outfits have changed a bit being full sets you can’t mismatch and there are gathering tools that fit a “theme” rather than random crap. 

 

Anet has even said the gemstore is to supplement future releases. As to the long-winded post above no new players would bother getting into the game now if you had to still buy the base game and the xpacs ontop of that. Blizz learned later on that was a TERRIBLE model for entry into the game after expansions were introduced.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

So with this post you admit that the arguing back and forth starting with the OP is pointless?

No, I admit what I said: putting GW2 in its current state behind a monthly fee wouldn't accomplish anything.
But that's been said by Aodlop in the very first post already: "I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame."

We're talking about in-game rewards, their quality when compared to the Gem Store stuff, philosophy behind everything involved...
And I keep saying that the subscription model gets dragged into it just because people come in, don't read a single other post - apparently not even the first one - and just go on a "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAD" rampage.
Then somebody pitches in with an explanation why this isn't about a sub fee itself, and the response? "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

What's there to do with such people?

[Clex Mix.7624]

5 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

No, I admit what I said: putting GW2 in its current state behind a monthly fee wouldn't accomplish anything.
But that's been said by Aodlop in the very first post already: "I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame."

We're talking about in-game rewards, their quality when compared to the Gem Store stuff, philosophy behind everything involved...
And I keep saying that the subscription model gets dragged into it just because people come in, don't read a single other post - apparently not even the first one - and just go on a "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAD" rampage.
Then somebody pitches in with an explanation why this isn't about a sub fee itself, and the response? "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

What's there to do with such people?

The OP was literally about a sub, as well as the assumption that “ all the kitten released on the gemstore” would be obtainable via achievements. I mean... you don’t get “sub is bad” because someone said “ I just want to get more stuff in game” you get it from idk... the title and literally op saying “sub”.

 

As it stands people could argue the practices of devs and publishers since the days of halo map packs. “Pretty item shops” is... and I effin HATE to admit it, just a part of playing any online game, sub or no sub... WoW the biggest example for me and even ff14 the way I hear it both have in game shops with cosmetics and services attached to them as well as a sub. And to think anet if given the unanimous vote of confidence of adding a sub would somehow break that cycle is a bit of wishful thinking. 

 

Id much rather the game be pay to look pretty and hold more crap than pay to win.

[kharmin.7683]

17 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Literally within the first month Primeval armor was in the gemstore, then other “sets” all of which required to be xmog’d individually. Bank expansion, inventory, character slots all in the first month. Then it was infinite gathering tools. The only thing you could say about the gemstore is outfits have changed a bit being full sets you can’t mismatch and there are gathering tools that fit a “theme” rather than random crap. 

 

Anet has even said the gemstore is to supplement future releases. As to the long-winded post above no new players would bother getting into the game now if you had to still buy the base game and the xpacs ontop of that. Blizz learned later on that was a TERRIBLE model for entry into the game after expansions were introduced.

Outfits were pretty much a direct result of the player base crying to Anet for in-game rewards.  Armor sets got moved from the GS and were replaced with outfits, which are easier/faster for Anet to create and (we might presume) bring in more income.  Armor sets were relegated to in-game content to appease the vocal crowd.

[Malitias.8453]

@Clex Mix.7624You're calling me a narcissist for simply stating what I'd personally enjoy. I never said it's what the game definetely has to do nor that anyone is obligated to have the same opinion on it as I have.

Out of nowhere you jump to the conclusion that “I want to do as little as possible and get everything”. I would like the game to be more challenging and have those be rewarded. Now I'm also a narcissist for enjoying a challenge in your logic.

Telling me to drop 1700$ to buy the items directly from GS just shows you completely missed the point.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

6 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Literally within the first month Primeval armor was in the gemstore, then other “sets” all of which required to be xmog’d individually. Bank expansion, inventory, character slots all in the first month. Then it was infinite gathering tools. The only thing you could say about the gemstore is outfits have changed a bit being full sets you can’t mismatch and there are gathering tools that fit a “theme” rather than random crap. 

 

Anet has even said the gemstore is to supplement future releases. As to the long-winded post above no new players would bother getting into the game now if you had to still buy the base game and the xpacs ontop of that. Blizz learned later on that was a TERRIBLE model for entry into the game after expansions were introduced.

Where do I put the Gem Store stuff? It's enlightening, I just have no clue how it fits anything I've said in the quoted post.

Blizz learned that through the absurd success that was The Burning Crusade AND the golden age of WoW - Wrath of the Lich King? Or You mean the flop Cataclysm was, because Blizz nerfed it to the ground so people don't feel like they have to play the game? Pandas were decent, as I've heard, but then Dailylords of Draenor hit all the "sweet" spots, with Legion being praised to high Argus again. Haven't heard many positive things about BfA or Shadowlands, even from Bellular, and he's about as passionate for WoW's hope as WoodenPotatoes is for Tyria's. Well. Was.

Pretty sure the only terrible model Blizzard learned of was selling their integrity to money... and Activision.
BuT dOn'T yOu GuYs HaVe PhOnEs!? Not like there's enough real Blizzard nowadays there to hold the solemn vigil.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

The OP was literally about a sub, as well as the assumption that “ all the kitten released on the gemstore” would be obtainable via achievements. I mean... you don’t get “sub is bad” because someone said “ I just want to get more stuff in game” you get it from idk... the title and literally op saying “sub”.

 

As it stands people could argue the practices of devs and publishers since the days of halo map packs. “Pretty item shops” is... and I effin HATE to admit it, just a part of playing any online game, sub or no sub... WoW the biggest example for me and even ff14 the way I hear it both have in game shops with cosmetics and services attached to them as well as a sub. And to think anet if given the unanimous vote of confidence of adding a sub would somehow break that cycle is a bit of wishful thinking. 

 

Id much rather the game be pay to look pretty and hold more crap than pay to win.

I have no idea how everybody comes to that conclusion.
The title says "I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO."
I see there's a word "subscription" in the title, so the rest of the sentence is probably null and void by then, and even if a person looking to spread some hatred to balance out Eva Green's beauty makes it to the actual post, there's also "sub-based GW2" right at the beginning, which means that nothing, regardless of the amount of the word "sex" used, would catch their righteous attention anymore.

But the post is elaborating on the titular statement from the standpoint of wishing for rewards being available through gameplay, and the game having more "real" goals for players to work towards, again, for the sake of incentivizing actually playing the game.
Sure, claiming that all things from the Gem Store as they are now would simply be available for achievs and the like isn't true, but there's much more nuance to literally every single aspect of the debate than just to crucify Aodlop for suggesting such an ungodly idea.

I still think the original post was more a sigh of disappointment than even a semblance of a suggestion, but perhaps I just see way too much more through this faithful helmet than intended.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

No, I admit what I said: putting GW2 in its current state behind a monthly fee wouldn't accomplish anything.
But that's been said by Aodlop in the very first post already: "I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame."

We're talking about in-game rewards, their quality when compared to the Gem Store stuff, philosophy behind everything involved...
And I keep saying that the subscription model gets dragged into it just because people come in, don't read a single other post - apparently not even the first one - and just go on a "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAD" rampage.
Then somebody pitches in with an explanation why this isn't about a sub fee itself, and the response? "SUB FEE IS BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

What's there to do with such people?

Here is the problem for me ... we DO have ingame rewards and they are 'good' and 'appropriate' rewards to get ... and No, you shouldn't be comparing them to GS items because GS items aren't rewards. I mean, what do people mean by 'better'? OP just wants the traditional "drop my magic sword after 100 runs" garbage. That's not better, it's just different ... and it does NOT appeal to the market this game is targeting. In otherwords, Anet understands it's targeted market, has developed a game based on that and is successful, demonstrating they were at some level making a good bet on what that market wants. So when people say "better rewards" ... IMO they don't get what's going on here and why this game exists. 

 

There isn't a reason to challenge the status quo here. If it didn't work, it would have been changed a long time ago or the game would have folded.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Linken.6345]

38 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Here is the problem for me ... we DO have ingame rewards and they are 'good' and 'appropriate' rewards to get. I mean, what do people mean by 'better'? OP just wants the traditional "drop my magic sword after 100 runs" garbage. That does NOT appeal to the market this game is targeting. In otherwords, Anet understands it's targeted market, has developed a game based on that and is successful, demonstrating they were at some level making a good bet on what that market want's. 

Nah you got it wrong it may drop after 1 or 100 or even 1000 or 10000 kills.

So some might never get it.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Here is the problem for me ... we DO have ingame rewards and they are 'good' and 'appropriate' rewards to get ... and No, you shouldn't be comparing them to GS items because GS items aren't rewards. I mean, what do people mean by 'better'? OP just wants the traditional "drop my magic sword after 100 runs" garbage. That's not better, it's just different ... and it does NOT appeal to the market this game is targeting. In otherwords, Anet understands it's targeted market, has developed a game based on that and is successful, demonstrating they were at some level making a good bet on what that market wants. So when people say "better rewards" ... IMO they don't get what's going on here and why this game exists. 

 

There isn't a reason to challenge the status quo here. If it didn't work, it would have been changed a long time ago or the game would have folded.

You know, considering how easy the game is, I can't with clean conscience argue against the "good" and "appropriate" rewards; we're required to do nothing else than press two buttons, it's totally fitting that the prize for such a glorious achievement hasn't even read about quality being described, not to think of possessing any.

I've explained everything before. One more time won't make any more difference, will it?

Shikashi...
The black-and-white mindset, the blind trust to the overlords' grand plan, the absolute unwillingness to even consider questioning anything, the visceral aversion to admission of mistakes...
Hell.

If there's one thing that towers about any other when it comes to miserable upbringing, it's the fact children can't defend themselves. Throw a thousand of these threads at me and I'll most probably come out even more driven than before.
But what's a new tiny-human to think without their own arguments, without the ability to read between the lines, without experience and perspective?
...without the vorpal defiance to stand up for themselves.

So many wondrous dancers, so many passionate dancers, so many promising dancers... crippled by people who keep hammering into their heads there's only a single rhythm in the world.

I was going to start with saying how much the conformity of Your post burns my rebellious veins, but it would ring very hollow without the prologue.
I have nothing against You. How can I?
But whoever decided to gift You this "obedient soldier" manual should go /dance in front of one of Abaddon's statues.

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

You know, considering how easy the game is, I can't with clean conscience argue against the "good" and "appropriate" rewards; we're required to do nothing else than press two buttons, it's totally fitting that the prize for such a glorious achievement hasn't even read about quality being described, not to think of possessing any.

I've explained everything before. One more time won't make any more difference, will it?

No, it won't because all of these game philosophy and design decisions that were made to target a market that was underserved when the game was released are not bad or wrong decisions and they don't need to be revisited because people on the fringe of that market segment don't like them. If the game is too easy or the rewards to 'mobile' or whatever ... then the answer isn't to change the game, it's to play a game you DO like. 

 

It's not about being and obedient soldier or rebelling either ... it's about appreciating how the game appeals to me as a player, probably because I'm firmly in the center of the market that Anet wants this game to appeal to. I really don't want the game to stray from a model that not only works for me, but for many other people and for Anet as well. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[MokahTGS.7850]

So you want to pay monthly to get rewards that are on the gem store that you currently have to pay for?  Would you like me to just send you a monthly reminder to buy something off the gem store for $14.99?

 

Why people think adding a subscription would solve whatever problem they perceive is there is really beyond me.

 

People not knowing what to do is not a failing of the payment system.  If anything, it's a failing of the overall game design.  They could add a subscription to the game tomorrow and just as many people would be standing around doing the same content over and over.

 

GW2 would have gone F2P within the first year if it had dropped with a sub model at release...the reason we know this is tons of MMOs started as subs and then went F2P.

 

The current MMOs that are still subs have a very big bank rolls (looking at you Blizzard, Bethesda) propping them up.