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I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]


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40 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I think threads like this ("GW2 with sub = better! Also subscriptions = fundamentally better design motivations!") demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about why this game was made, and why it's survived this long despite being based on an highly obscure IP and numerous fiascoes along the way.

 

As others have noted already, GW2 set out to deliver a sub-quality experience without the sub. You can argue about the feasibility of such an idea or how well ANet pulled it off, but you need to actually address these ideas instead of just assuming the usual framework of sub-vs-f2p design motivations apply to GW2.

 

Trying to imagine GW2 with a sub is akin to trying to imagine a Tesla that runs on an old combustion engine. Tesla are cars... combustion engines make cars operate.... so  a Tesla would of course operate if you built one to run on a combustion engine. But the entire point of a Tesla is to have a well-running (and as of the current day, quite expensive) car that specifically doesn't use an old combustion engine. It would lose the very essence of what would make it a Tesla in the first place. IMO such discussions are utter wastes of time.

 

 


You're entirely correct.

The problem is that even if You didn't read a single other post other than the original, Aodlop's point of contention never was putting a sub-fee on GW2 right now, but the fact that obtaining rewards more often than not boils down to grinding gold instead of getting it for an in-game feat.

As such, the only waste of time is posting a comment complaining about people's lack of understanding while not providing any explanation, meaning You're more keen on pointing fingers than improving a discourse.

Even if there is a highly esoteric reason for why the game is in the state it is, how does it make the systems immune to critique?
If a bridge breaks apart with all the people currently walking upon it falling to their deaths, would incarcerating the miscalculating architect resurrect them, or prevent such miscalculations in the future?

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Unpopular, I know.  But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, rai

So just buy the amount of gems you would pay if you didn't log in for that story step. No need to mess everyone else's experiences up because of your opinion. For me, only things that aren't purc

I wouldn’t play the game if it were subscribtion based.  It you can just spend money each month on items in the gem store if you want. 

GW2 isn't perfect but one thing Anet gets right is the business model. Having an MMO be a shareware game with a non-pay2win cosmetic cash shop is brilliant. It allows easy access to the game while still paying the bills.

 

WoW and FF are extremely well made games by companies with a long reputation of exceptional quality. They can  have so much content in their game along with the sub model because those games have insanely high player/fan bases compared to almost every other MMORPG on the market. It's the high player count that lets them fund so much streamlined content.

 

In other words, very good MMORPGs can get away with  having a subscription model. They are not good because of the subscription model. Just look at some failed sub based MMOs in the past, IE Wildstar, to see this in action.  Thinking the game would magically become better if the business model changed is a massive fallacy. You are confusing correlation with causation.

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54 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:


My apologies, haven't meant it in a derogatory way. I tend to assume that everybody starts exactly where I do, leading to a conclusion that misunderstandings come from the lack of care or focus, not because I might be explaining things like a moron.


I'm far from an expert on the topic, so there's no way I can with any authority say this is how it's done and this is how it's not; all I'm drawing on is personal experience as a player, and various articles, videos, and general discussion about the issue at hand, so do take it with a grain of salt.

The main idea behind a MMORPG is a constantly evolving world, a world where the core structure stays mostly intact, while features are built upon it over a long period of time.
This means that, unlike in single-player games, the gameplay must consist of activities which are repeatable and rewarding, otherwise the players would lose interest very quickly, regardless of the monetization model.
Well, repeatable, or always new, which I can't imagine being sustainable, unless the creators are very imaginative.

Yet, there are several very different repeatable things to do in games, the distinction of which is what makes or breaks a game:
From my experience with the few games I mentioned, the main repeatable gameplay loop in WoW (again, I can only talk about the old Wrath) and Vindictus revolves around the gear treadmill. BUT!
The difference between the sub-based WoW and the F2P Vindictus is that WoW releases a level of content, players grind adequate level of gear, then a new level is released, the players grind this next level, and so on, while Vindictus forces people to not only grind bosses to craft and improve equipment, but there's also a chance of failure while enhancing and/or enchanting every single piece, in some cases causing the materials to be lost, in other cases shattering the piece of gear altogether, which then requires more grind to be replaced, not to mention the absurd RNG behind which most of these drops are locked.

Still, I could be just cherry-picking the best and worst of each to prove my point, so let's look at GW2.
There are three main game modes here: PvE, sPvP, and WvW.
Let's say we have a player who already enjoys the combat system and is in full ascended gear, because GW2 supposedly has no gear treadmill.
In PvE, Fractals are (daily) repeatable content which awards gold, Raids are weekly repeatable content which awards gold, Strikes are daily repeatable content which awards gold, DRMs are daily repeatable content which awards gold, and open world maps are wheneverly repeatable content which awards gold.
The rewards for both PvP modes is, besides the obvious competitive "gitting gud", gold.
Every game mode also awards armor/weapon skins, which, considering the structure of Reward Tracks and/or currencies traded for said skins, is GW2's own iteration of gear treadmill.

Literally every single end-game system in GW2 is repeatable content, which, by the virtue of the F2P nature of the game, has been watered down for the Gem Store to provide a solution, too.
It's, of course, nothing compared to the aforementioned Vindictus or games built on that principle, but to claim that the F2P model favors repeatability to any lesser degree than the sub-based one is demonstrably not true.


When it comes to Wild Hunt, we can't compare a relatively static single-player game to an ever-moving MMORPG.
Single-player games are made, sold, and mostly untouched afterwards (unless they're horribly bugged and the developer isn't Bethesda).
It also depends on the genre, because a large potion of The Witcher games is the story. Many people enjoy playing through even these games again exactly to explore different choices and their consequences, but a better example would be, say, Supergiant's Hades, where a single run through takes roughly 30 minutes on average without tryharding, yet the story moves even between these runs, and if the other systems weren't delightful to consume, nobody would care for how many times they can finish the infinite loop.

So I completely agree that the quality of a game has very little to do with its potential to entertain more than a single playthrough, even in games like Hades or MMORPGs which rely on keeping people within their worlds for a very long time.
And that's why I'm proposing that the distinction between the reason for and the implementation of repeatable content is considered as well, not merely how much of it is present.

Even if people start where you do, they might reach different conclusions. 🙂 

I personally felt your logic was flawed slightly, thats why i initially responded. 

 

I agree that it doesn't seem constantly making new things is sustainable enough on its own (LS1 showed that its quite a drain on the srudio) and probably a healthy balance needs to drawn their. Even if a game has top tier repeatable content it needs some new content from time to time after all.

 

Which also explains why gw2has repeatable content even though it as an mmo is way closer to the new content part of the spectrum then most mmos are.

 

Not all endgame systems are repeatable content though, meta achievemnts, masteryleveling, collections and story ls patches are also gw2 endgame in a sense.

 

About you're conclusion that f2p incentivices repeatable content at an equal amount , that is not really true. What you are seeing is more so that any mmos need repeatable content and the fact that wow had a ridiculous impact on the mmo scene.

 

As an example gw2 has way less focus on repeatable content then almost any mmo in the market i know of, and that has to do mostly with the philosophy of allowing people to quit and return whenever they want. This cant happen in a sub based mmo.

 

The wild hunt comparison was more to get atleast the notion that their is more to a game then repeatability. If we couldn't start from that then their would be nothing to discuss. 🙂 I'm glad you atleast acknowledge that part.

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On 5/1/2021 at 7:51 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Unpopular, I know. 

But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, raids or PvP feats instead of...bought with real life money, or gold grinded by following a zerg of 40+ players circling on the same map for hours.

I love GW2. But it does feel pointless sometimes. The feeling of logging in and wondering what to do is a very common feedback among people who've stopped playing GW2.

 

I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame.

So instead of spending less money buying gems you want to spend more money in subscriptions just so you can earn the same skins in game by playing. There are enough achievements in the game to chase besides skins or grind for gold. Focus on them instead.

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11 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Even if people start where you do, they might reach different conclusions. 🙂 

I personally felt your logic was flawed slightly, thats why i initially responded.


Exactly why we're having a conversation, and why I'm not a forum moderator wielding the ever-ready ban hammer!
 

 

13 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I agree that it doesn't seem constantly making new things is sustainable enough on its own (LS1 showed that its quite a drain on the srudio) and probably a healthy balance needs to drawn their. Even if a game has top tier repeatable content it needs some new content from time to time after all.

 

Which also explains why gw2has repeatable content even though it as an mmo is way closer to the new content part of the spectrum then most mmos are.

 

Not all endgame systems are repeatable content though, meta achievemnts, masteryleveling, collections and story ls patches are also gw2 endgame in a sense.

 

About you're conclusion that f2p incentivices repeatable content at an equal amount , that is not really true. What you are seeing is more so that any mmos need repeatable content and the fact that wow had a ridiculous impact on the mmo scene.

 

As an example gw2 has way less focus on repeatable content then almost any mmo in the market i know of, and that has to do mostly with the philosophy of allowing people to quit and return whenever they want. This cant happen in a sub based mmo.

 

The wild hunt comparison was more to get atleast the notion that their is more to a game then repeatability. If we couldn't start from that then their would be nothing to discuss. 🙂 I'm glad you atleast acknowledge that part.


My main issue with GW2's - and other F2P MMORPGs' - repeatable systems isn't that they're there, or even how many of them are present. If the gameplay is entertaining - and, at least to me, in GW2 it certainly is - a rewarding loop which is practically infinite must be one of the most fitting inventions to incorporate into a long-term project like a MMORPG ever.

The problem is, as Aodlop's original post states, that precisely the end-game You've listed - achievements, masteries, collections... - has virtually no displayable value.
There's a couple of backpacks, the exotic/ascended gear acquired through profession-specific collections, and titles.
Every other thing players would marvel at is bought from the gem store, because that's how the game sustains itself. If nobody would actually play the game, but only log in each new release to buy out the gem store, ANet wouldn't bat an eye.

Well, alright. Not every other thing.
There IS a type of achievement which rewards expensive dyes, unique shiny armor, and even infusions for accomplishing it - birthdays.
The only reward in GW2 with a sub-based game's level of value is for having an old account.
Says a lot, doesn't it.

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3 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:


Exactly why we're having a conversation, and why I'm not a forum moderator wielding the ever-ready ban hammer!
 

 


My main issue with GW2's - and other F2P MMORPGs' - repeatable systems isn't that they're there, or even how many of them are present. If the gameplay is entertaining - and, at least to me, in GW2 it certainly is - a rewarding loop which is practically infinite must be one of the most fitting inventions to incorporate into a long-term project like a MMORPG ever.

The problem is, as Aodlop's original post states, that precisely the end-game You've listed - achievements, masteries, collections... - has virtually no displayable value.
There's a couple of backpacks, the exotic/ascended gear acquired through profession-specific collections, and titles.
Every other thing players would marvel at is bought from the gem store, because that's how the game sustains itself. If nobody would actually play the game, but only log in each new release to buy out the gem store, ANet wouldn't bat an eye.

Well, alright. Not every other thing.
There IS a type of achievement which rewards expensive dyes, unique shiny armor, and even infusions for accomplishing it - birthdays.
The only reward in GW2 with a sub-based game's level of value is for having an old account.
Says a lot, doesn't it.

I've heard this before, but this is a false statement in my opinion. Their are collections which reward infusions, (otter, kodans warmth, ice etc), their are a lot of in game skins even prestigious ones (the legendary ones, the henche from draconis mons, etc)

Collections reward ap which shows, mastery points show on your account, their are minis/

Ontop of the amount of things you can buy on the tp.

 

 You are correct that if nobody played the game but just logged in and bought from the gemstore they wouldn't care financially. However that statement is as vacuous as me saying, blizzard wouldn't care if nobody logged in but still bought subfee.

 

Honestly i feel like the problem people have with the gemstore are more problems with the gold to gems conversion.

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And I would play less. Cause I could not play for free anymore - would only play when I was sure I have tons of time to play. (Which would put more pressure on me ... to the the most out of the subscription. Might decide to not play at all then.)

 

Grinding the stuff ingame also is boring. There should be a few obtainable mount skins by just playing - similar to weapons where a ton of stuff exists and the gem store skins are not really needed. (I usually like them even less.)

 

Maybe an optional subscription: F2P + subscribers wardrobe: Having all locked skins unlocked while you are subscribed. (With still the option to buy them permanently for gems.) Cancelling subscription would cancel the access to that locked stuff. Or some subscription model where get discounted gems + a free skin or so.

 

But certainly not pay to play. (Subscribing to even access the base game content.)

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5 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Complementary to that, the community of this particular game has been bred specifically for the "numbness" and "ignorance" genetic traits. Yes, there's a lot of people who care for the game, and all six visit the forums regularly, but the majority of the payers couldn't give a bag o' beans for anything deeper than skin.

What the hell are you talking about

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5 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Complementary to that, the community of this particular game has been bred specifically for the "numbness" and "ignorance" genetic traits. Yes, there's a lot of people who care for the game, and all six visit the forums regularly, but the majority of the payers couldn't give a bag o' beans for anything deeper than skin.

And this just shows us that you are not interested in having a good faith discussion and should be ignored entirely.

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1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I've heard this before, but this is a false statement in my opinion. Their are collections which reward infusions, (otter, kodans warmth, ice etc), their are a lot of in game skins even prestigious ones (the legendary ones, the henche from draconis mons, etc)

Collections reward ap which shows, mastery points show on your account, their are minis/

Ontop of the amount of things you can buy on the tp.

 

 You are correct that if nobody played the game but just logged in and bought from the gemstore they wouldn't care financially. However that statement is as vacuous as me saying, blizzard wouldn't care if nobody logged in but still bought subfee.

 

Honestly i feel like the problem people have with the gemstore are more problems with the gold to gems conversion.


If it's a false statement, it's false regardless of opinion; if You know the truth, hold Your head high.

Of course there technically are other shiny skins and infusions obtainable in-game, through achievements or even gameplay (although the ridiculous RNG tied to quite a number of them makes gold the only "reasonable" way of getting them), but compare those to what is sold in the gem store.
Many people started pointing out that lately ANet gradually release regular ~600 gems skins that encroach upon legendary territory, for example the Vermilion Blaze greatsword or the Vermilion Tail Feather torch, not to mention how mundane the legendary backs look when compared to basically all of the back items nowadays while unable to be even dyed.

AP mean nothing besides how long a player has been around at best, just like masteries, mainly because everything from breathing to elder dragon killing awards some AP, with breathing having multiple tiers, too, yielding more points overall.
There has been a thread not too long ago mentioning how a 30k+ AP player was utter trash at the game, to which several other people responded corroborated that they, too, are casual players and the AP simply accumulates over the years.

In contrast, I recall the first time I've seen a friend of mine summon his Ironbound Proto-Drake, a mount sharing the model of one of the first bosses of Ulduar, Razorscale, awarded for doing several pretty cruel achievements in said raid, and each time another such mount showed up, I knew "Yeah, this guy DID that." Same with Heroic gear, titles for ridiculous things (namely "the Insane" title for getting maximum reputation with a bunch of old school factions), old mounts, tabards...


Yes, nobody would mind if people just hand over their money for nothing.
Problem is that nobody would be there to give a sub-based game anything for the second month, so they have to keep people interested, and... here the serpent bites its tail.

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3 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

In contrast, I recall the first time I've seen a friend of mine summon his Ironbound Proto-Drake, a mount sharing the model of one of the first bosses of Ulduar, Razorscale, awarded for doing several pretty cruel achievements in said raid, and each time another such mount showed up, I knew "Yeah, this guy DID that." Same with Heroic gear, titles for ridiculous things (namely "the Insane" title for getting maximum reputation with a bunch of old school factions), old mounts, tabards...

And I felt the same the first time I saw someone with Kudzu and still feel that way whenever I see someone wearing one of the Gen 2 Legendaries (especially the first 4), a legendary backpack or an infusion that's hard to obtain.

Are there gem skins that look like they could be legendaries? Sure, but many unique mount models in WoW are only obtainable through the store as well, most mounts (even rare ones) obtainable through ingame means tend to be recolors.

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I'm not sure if I would play a subscription-base game, when at my point there's nothing to do. I just log in, do some daily, maybe exploration on my newest characters... I don't need to farm gold, because I have gold. Fractals, raids, strike missions, DRMs became the same content over and over again.

 

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21 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

And this just shows us that you are not interested in having a good faith discussion and should be ignored entirely.


And instead of saying what's wrong with an argument, You sharpen a pitchfork.
Quite sure people with such a mindset have nothing to add to the discussion, anyway.
Good riddance. o/
 

 

53 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

What the hell are you talking about


I'm talking about the fact that ANet have demonstrated many times in the (not so distant) past what their target audience looks like: conformist hivemind of fanboys who eat absolutely everything they get thrown, especially if it has a gem price tag attached.
Not saying everybody is like that; I wouldn't be here talking to people if I thought there's absolutely no hope for a single soul, but if we look at what features are getting implemented and in what way, it's more than obvious what produces the most revenue, and, therefore, which way the wind blows.
 

 

10 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

And I felt the same the first time I saw someone with Kudzu and still feel that way whenever I see someone wearing one of the Gen 2 Legendaries (especially the first 4), a legendary backpack or an infusion that's hard to obtain.

Are there gem skins that look like they could be legendaries? Sure, but many unique mount models in WoW are only obtainable through the store as well, most mounts (even rare ones) obtainable through ingame means tend to be recolors.


Fair enough.
The awe of legendaries in this game disappeared pretty quickly from my mind, because pretty much every single step is either time-gated and/or a horrible grind.
Doesn't help one bit that I really dislike the over-the-top effects in the first place, and if I'll ever get any legendary, it'll be Pharus and nothing else (so far), but... beauty in the eye of the beholder, yes?

And mounts in WoW suck, too! 😄 Yet, well, when compared to Tyria's mounts, what game does them better?
The singular issue I see is still the lack of incentive for people to actually play the game.
That carrot on a stick is an important part of walking, even if people never really end up eating it.

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3 hours ago, Nubarus.9268 said:

So instead of spending less money buying gems you want to spend more money in subscriptions just so you can earn the same skins in game by playing.

Yes. That way, the cosmetics are locked behind, you know, in-game content. 

Is it really so difficult for you to even fathom that it might feel better to earn rewards rather than buy them?

That it might be fun to engage in an activity that isn't optimized to generate gold, and yet to feel rewarded all the same because you're getting a nice looking weapon or armor piece that was specifically designed as a reward for that activity, rather than being yet another store item?

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On 5/1/2021 at 12:51 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Unpopular, I know. 

But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, raids or PvP feats instead of...bought with real life money, or gold grinded by following a zerg of 40+ players circling on the same map for hours.

I love GW2. But it does feel pointless sometimes. The feeling of logging in and wondering what to do is a very common feedback among people who've stopped playing GW2.

 

I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame.

First off, no even the subscription mmo have cash shops.

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35 minutes ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Yes. That way, the cosmetics are locked behind, you know, in-game content. 

Is it really so difficult for you to even fathom that it might feel better to earn rewards rather than buy them?

That it might be fun to engage in an activity that isn't optimized to generate gold, and yet to feel rewarded all the same because you're getting a nice looking weapon or armor piece that was specifically designed as a reward for that activity, rather than being yet another store item?

I would rather choose myself what I want to do instead of having to pay monthy for content that makes me jump through certian hoops to get something I want. as I said, there are enough collections in the game to go after if you like that sort of thing. If they lock everything behind collections and being forced to play certain elements of the game just to get a skin I would not play this game at all. I hate being forced to play just because I keep paying for it every month or else it's the same as just burning your money every month. I bet there are enough games out there that already take your money every month, don't turn GW2 into one as well.

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7 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:


You're entirely correct.

Of course I am.

 

7 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

The problem is that even if You didn't read a single other post other than the original, Aodlop's point of contention never was putting a sub-fee on GW2 right now, but the fact that obtaining rewards more often than not boils down to grinding gold instead of getting it for an in-game feat.

That wasn't in the original post, but was only extracted later in the thread after the obligatory "just simulate your own sub by spending on gems every month" and other such rote responses.

 

I didn't elaborate any further because most things worth noting were already noted in this thread, and the many others that already exist on this beaten-dead-horse topic. So yes, you are correct in noting that I'm not really interested in furthering this particular discussion. I've never seen any good points raised by the "subs are how it should have been/will improve GW2" camp, ever. I'm just here out of boredom.

 

3 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

In contrast, I recall the first time I've seen a friend of mine summon his Ironbound Proto-Drake, a mount sharing the model of one of the first bosses of Ulduar, Razorscale, awarded for doing several pretty cruel achievements in said raid, and each time another such mount showed up, I knew "Yeah, this guy DID that." Same with Heroic gear, titles for ridiculous things (namely "the Insane" title for getting maximum reputation with a bunch of old school factions), old mounts, tabards...

On a superficial level, this would be a nice thing to have in GW2. Just as it had the effects you described in WoW, it would indeed be cool to have more cosmetics tied to achievements. Specifically, I can think of just a few gem-store skins that might have served well as achievement rewards - the Phalanx heavy armor skins might have been a good LWS3 reward, Aetherblade stuff could have been S1, and maybe a handful of others. There are admittedly many more candidates among the mount skins, as they are often tied to specific areas of the world and could easily be dovetailed into a regional reputation system.

 

But digging a bit deeper.... hard pass. As you and others have pointed out, the achievement-based cosmetic system would merely replace the existing gold grind with an achievement grind instead. I (and many others) prefer the existing gold grind, as it allows for much greater content choice flexibility. In fact, this flexibility might be one of the most deeply rooted long term problems with GW2's design - it's so easy to only do the few things you like doing, and over time be rewarded pretty well for it (with the exception of the money sink that is WvW). This also extends to why so many people make it so long in this game while being absolutely worthless in combat. If you only do the easiest open world stuff, you can get away with not understanding anything at all about being combat effective while still being steadily rewarded for bad gameplay. I think the result of this "do (almost) anything you want and be rewarded for it" is that it's easier in GW2 to tunnel vision your own little sector of the game, and thereby remain highly resistant to behavioral changes (trying more instanced content, trying raids, trying more interesting and threatening pve mechanics, etc) the devs feel the need to attempt on the playerbase.

 

But of course, far be it from any pro-sub commenter to bring this up.

 

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3 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

And instead of saying what's wrong with an argument, You sharpen a pitchfork.
Quite sure people with such a mindset have nothing to add to the discussion, anyway.
Good riddance. o/

You've hardly gotten rid of me and I'll tell you whats wrong with your argument as you've done it more than just what I previously quoted:  You're engaging in Ad Hominems and Strawmen in multiple instances to de-legitimize those that don't agree with you.

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2 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Yes

There are plenty of subscription based MMO's out there so play them instead. But last I heard subscription based MMO's have in game shops too so pretty much a moot point and the only ones laughing are the ones who rake in the cash from the subcriptions AND the in game shops.

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4 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:


If it's a false statement, it's false regardless of opinion; if You know the truth, hold Your head high.

Of course there technically are other shiny skins and infusions obtainable in-game, through achievements or even gameplay (although the ridiculous RNG tied to quite a number of them makes gold the only "reasonable" way of getting them), but compare those to what is sold in the gem store.
Many people started pointing out that lately ANet gradually release regular ~600 gems skins that encroach upon legendary territory, for example the Vermilion Blaze greatsword or the Vermilion Tail Feather torch, not to mention how mundane the legendary backs look when compared to basically all of the back items nowadays while unable to be even dyed.

AP mean nothing besides how long a player has been around at best, just like masteries, mainly because everything from breathing to elder dragon killing awards some AP, with breathing having multiple tiers, too, yielding more points overall.
There has been a thread not too long ago mentioning how a 30k+ AP player was utter trash at the game, to which several other people responded corroborated that they, too, are casual players and the AP simply accumulates over the years.

In contrast, I recall the first time I've seen a friend of mine summon his Ironbound Proto-Drake, a mount sharing the model of one of the first bosses of Ulduar, Razorscale, awarded for doing several pretty cruel achievements in said raid, and each time another such mount showed up, I knew "Yeah, this guy DID that." Same with Heroic gear, titles for ridiculous things (namely "the Insane" title for getting maximum reputation with a bunch of old school factions), old mounts, tabards...


Yes, nobody would mind if people just hand over their money for nothing.
Problem is that nobody would be there to give a sub-based game anything for the second month, so they have to keep people interested, and... here the serpent bites its tail.

The mundanity thing is subjectice, and posssibly also a consequence of their artists getting better. Also for something to be prestigious it doesn't need to be pretty. (best example are partyhat is rs3 for example)

 

About the ap thing i have to disagree, i have a friend in the top 100 ap and that is pretty impressive.

 

For example the quadim chair is an example like your protodrake example. Do you consider them equivalent.

 

The way you talk about these things makes me certain of one thing though.(Also the reason why i said in my opinion.) Their are prestige items in the game/items which represent content done, you don't consider them personally prestiges though. Why is that? 

 

On your last part, the same thing holds for f2p games/ your game needs to be good enough for people to spend.

 

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52 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

That wasn't in the original post, but was only extracted later in the thread after the obligatory "just simulate your own sub by spending on gems every month" and other such rote responses.


Aodlop's OP:

Quote

Unpopular, I know. 

But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, raids or PvP feats instead of...bought with real life money, or gold grinded by following a zerg of 40+ players circling on the same map for hours.

I love GW2. But it does feel pointless sometimes. The feeling of logging in and wondering what to do is a very common feedback among people who've stopped playing GW2.

 

I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame.


Still haven't figured out the new forums completely, apologies.
The original post isn't edited, and Aodlop even acknowledges there's no hope in changing anything at this point as their last sentence, which makes the discussion begin with more of a disheartened sigh than even as little as a suggestion.

Could be a difference in perspective, though, as I can clearly see absolutely every single thing I've said before:

Quote

"...Aodlop's point of contention never was putting a sub-fee on GW2 right now..."

(Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame.)

Quote

"...but the fact that obtaining rewards more often than not boils down to grinding gold..."

(... instead of...bought with real life money, or gold grinded by following a zerg of 40+ players circling on the same map for hours.)

Quote

"...instead of getting it for an in-game feat."

(But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, raids or PvP feats...)

 

 

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

But digging a bit deeper.... hard pass. As you and others have pointed out, the achievement-based cosmetic system would merely replace the existing gold grind with an achievement grind instead. I (and many others) prefer the existing gold grind, as it allows for much greater content choice flexibility. In fact, this flexibility might be one of the most deeply rooted long term problems with GW2's design - it's so easy to only do the few things you like doing, and over time be rewarded pretty well for it (with the exception of the money sink that is WvW). This also extends to why so many people make it so long in this game while being absolutely worthless in combat. If you only do the easiest open world stuff, you can get away with not understanding anything at all about being combat effective while still being steadily rewarded for bad gameplay. I think the result of this "do (almost) anything you want and be rewarded for it" is that it's easier in GW2 to tunnel vision your own little sector of the game, and thereby remain highly resistant to behavioral changes (trying more instanced content, trying raids, trying more interesting and threatening pve mechanics, etc) the devs feel the need to attempt on the playerbase.

 

But of course, far be it from any pro-sub commenter to bring this up.


Guess it depends entirely on the person in question.

Gold is the most universal thing to be used as a carrot for the stick, there's no doubt about that, and in essence isn't one bit different from putting a reward behind an achievement, save for, at best, a couple of clicks in the gem store.
But the issue with this approach is that gold will always have an optimal way of getting it, which may lead to people feeling anxious if they're not using that exact one, or becoming a chore if they are using it for a long period of time, which then turns into the idea that the most optimal way of getting gold per hour is actually finding a real world job instead of mindlessly grinding.
Still, putting emphasis on "may", because I get bored very quickly, and although there are many people who do, too, I've no clue how many. I myself have tried grinding fully immersed into the game, with my music, with podcasts, even watching stuff on the side, but all of these have grown old very quick, because I like to be focused on what I'm doing.

Different achievements, however, always change up the scenery, and although there's bound to be the optimal way of getting this or that achievement, it will not work on the next one, and another one might not involve a single thing from the other three at all.
This is obviously restrictive. But that's pretty much the point, isn't it? Just like legendary weapons require PvE players to "try out" WvW for the Gift of Battle, even if just for dailies, and, conversely, force the PvP enthusiasts to slam their quick fingers against the keyboard while suffering through the Gift of (Maguuma/Desert) Mastery.

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1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You've hardly gotten rid of me and I'll tell you whats wrong with your argument as you've done it more than just what I previously quoted:  You're engaging in Ad Hominems and Strawmen in multiple instances to de-legitimize those that don't agree with you.


Feel free to point out every single one.
I think way too highly of myself and my arguments for a need to resort to ad homs or strawmen, and I'm also arguing on the basis of improving this high regard.
If did so, it wasn't intentional, and I'm all up for acknowledging and learning from it.

But if You simply feel threatened by somebody who stands tall against a couple of obviously biased keyboard warriors, that's solely on You.

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30 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

The mundanity thing is subjectice, and posssibly also a consequence of their artists getting better. Also for something to be prestigious it doesn't need to be pretty. (best example are partyhat is rs3 for example)

 

About the ap thing i have to disagree, i have a friend in the top 100 ap and that is pretty impressive.

 

For example the quadim chair is an example like your protodrake example. Do you consider them equivalent.

 

The way you talk about these things makes me certain of one thing though.(Also the reason why i said in my opinion.) Their are prestige items in the game/items which represent content done, you don't consider them personally prestiges though. Why is that? 

 

On your last part, the same thing holds for f2p games/ your game needs to be good enough for people to spend.

 


We can go through every single non-gem store prestige item and its acquisition case by case, and I'm confident I could find at least four in Wrath (2004/5 - 2010) for every single one in GW2 for its almost nine years of life.
I'm not saying they don't exist, not even if we consider absolutely all of them, not just the two I personally happen to like, or that the Tyrian items are somehow worse than the WoW items, but the ones in GW2 are so vastly outnumbered by all the gem store shinies in both quantity and quality that the go-to reward center for people isn't the game, but the gem.

If I sound bitter about the universally accepted idea of Tyrian beauty, it's because I simply don't find it appealing.
I enjoy cold elegance, intricate designs, function in harmony with form - the legendary bow Pharus, for example - not opulence of disco lights and short bows that either need their own audio setting or wouldn't be able to be lifted off the ground.
Not relevant in any way to the topic, just an explanation.

Yes, F2P games need to be good enough for people to spend, too.
But they can't be good enough for people to have fun without said spending.

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8 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:


We can go through every single non-gem store prestige item and its acquisition case by case, and I'm confident I could find at least four in Wrath (2004/5 - 2010) for every single one in GW2 for its almost nine years of life.
I'm not saying they don't exist, not even if we consider absolutely all of them, not just the two I personally happen to like, or that the Tyrian items are somehow worse than the WoW items, but the ones in GW2 are so vastly outnumbered by all the gem store shinies in both quantity and quality that the go-to reward center for people isn't the game, but the gem.

If I sound bitter about the universally accepted idea of Tyrian beauty, it's because I simply don't find it appealing.
I enjoy cold elegance, intricate designs, function in harmony with form - the legendary bow Pharus, for example - not opulence of disco lights and short bows that either need their own audio setting or wouldn't be able to be lifted off the ground.
Not relevant in any way to the topic, just an explanation.

Yes, F2P games need to be good enough for people to spend, too.
But they can't be good enough for people to have fun without said spending.

So from the first part it seems you have a problem with cosmetic only purchases. While i am understand why, the reality of mmo gaming is that both wow and ff have cosmetic cashshop. So this is not a f2p thing.

 

On the second part "But they can't be good enough for people to have fun without said spending." is a false statement. Now most f2p games go this route, but thats a consequence of "greedy developer implies scummy cashshop and f2p" not "f2p implies scummy practises".

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