I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]

[Riaenvyr.2091]

5 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

Calling people who disagree with you part of a hivemind doesn't really make you seem like someone who's trying to improve their own worldview.

"You know, I really dislike apples. They taste a bit too sour to me."
"But fruits are healthy! You can't just quit eating everything healthy now!"

Anything else I can help You put into perspective?

[Sonderm.4639]

7 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

There's currently one single armor set in the WoW store. As for mounts, it's about a dozen.

 

A dozen of store mounts, in a game where you can collect up to 400 by playing the game. That's the difference. Every single mount appearance in GW2 is locked behind the cash shop, 0 exception.

If GW2 started handing out armors of the same quality as WoW does (basically just a different texture applied), GW2 players would be up in arms. I do own some gem-store outfits but rarely equip them, much preferring the armor I can get in-game, because I can mix the pieces up, something you mostly don't get from the gem-store.

 

As to mounts. For one thing, the WoW storemounts (or the mounts you get if you subscribe for 6 months) are on average of quite a higher quality than the mounts earned in game.

From the mounts you can earn in game, the number 400 sounds impressive (I just take your word for it) but from my own experience you don't care about the overwhelming majority of them, either because they are just recolors/slight modifications or you don't care for their size/animations etc. (And earning them by running old content IMO is even more mind-numbing than zerging around). The prestigious raid mounts can be acquired by the average player by paying gold in order to get carried.

 

Am I happy that Anet hard-monetized mount skins? No. Is this an issue I lose sleep over or even one I'd deem so important that I wish they'd change their business model over? Hell no!

FWIW when it comes to cosmetics I can acquire by just playing the game, either as drops or by crafting (and grinding) and that I actually WANT to acquire, I take GW2 over WOW each day.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372

[Malitias.8453]

28 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

Calling people who disagree with you part of a hivemind doesn't really make you seem like someone who's trying to improve their own worldview.

You say "sub-based MMOs have cash shops too"
and when presented with "well, it's a difference when you have exactly 0 mounts attainable through gameplay vs over 400"
you go "you cant compare those 2 games"
This does make you appear like a person that is hard to argue with if you want to stay sane. I don't think you have the moral high ground here, buddy.

[Maikimaik.1974]

8 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

You say "sub-based MMOs have cash shops too"
and when presented with "well, it's a difference when you have exactly 0 mounts attainable through gameplay vs over 400"
you go "you cant compare those 2 games"
This does make you appear like a person that is hard to argue with if you want to stay sane. I don't think you have the moral high ground here, buddy.

If me believing that it's disingenuous to compare the monetization systems of the biggest MMORPG in existence to a relatively niche game makes me someone who's hard to argue with, so be it 🤷‍♂️

My point still stands, p2p games have cash shops too and most don't handle it as well as WoW does.

[Linken.6345]

34 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

You say "sub-based MMOs have cash shops too"
and when presented with "well, it's a difference when you have exactly 0 mounts attainable through gameplay vs over 400"
you go "you cant compare those 2 games"
This does make you appear like a person that is hard to argue with if you want to stay sane. I don't think you have the moral high ground here, buddy.

 

It have already been pointed out in this thread that we do have 1 skin unlockable in game, the 200g wvw warclaw one.

[yann.1946]

9 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Hm.

Imagine two people, say, Rhen and Himi, who both want to get a necklace.
Himi looks one up on the internet, notices the price, picks up a well-paid job, and keeps working and working and working 'till he gets enough money to buy it.
Rhen, on the other hand, instead finds a jewelry store, seduces its guard so there's no protection, befriends the manager so she gets the treasury code, almost gets caught, anyway, because the manager's wife's sister's horse's tabourette's best friend randomly walks by, but ultimately manages to leave the store with her price unnoticed.

In the end, both of them got their new piece of adornment, but Rhen's way was obviously much, much more exciting, no?
 

Here its my turn to say, did you read what i posted? 😛

 

My point is that the your reason for disliking the cashshop should still be their in WOW. So my question is why is the problem not their for you in WoW even though they have a cashshop?

 

9 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

The specific systems don't really matter, because virtually anything can be turned either to leech every last cent out of people or to provide them with a fulfilling experience, just like a knife can be used both to hurt and to carve beautiful wooden statuettes.
What matters is the end goal of these systems which depends on each particular game.
I feel like we agree on the principle, I'm just trying to counter each singular example 😄

My point was never that f2p are better then sub. Just that they are not worse by merit of beeing f2p.

And both have different advantages and disadvantages.

The mayor disadvantage of sub ones is that niche games can not really use this model.

The mayor disadvantage of f2p ones is that some thing will have to be sold in some cashshop, which will annoy some part of the playerbase.

[voidek.5738]

i would play less

[Eschaton.7952]

7 hours ago, BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372 said:

As to mounts. For one thing, the WoW storemounts (or the mounts you get if you subscribe for 6 months) are on average of quite a higher quality than the mounts earned in game.

From the mounts you can earn in game, the number 400 sounds impressive (I just take your word for it) but from my own experience you don't care about the overwhelming majority of them, either because they are just recolors/slight modifications or you don't care for their size/animations etc. (And earning them by running old content IMO is even more mind-numbing than zerging around). The prestigious raid mounts can be acquired by the average player by paying gold in order to get carried.

Any more, WoW is as much of a collection game as anything else including GW2, just much more expensive to maintain your account minimally.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Eschaton.7952

[FrizzFreston.5290]

The only reason why people who are paying a subscription are playing more is because they feel more obligated to. Whether you spend the money up front or directly on bought content has little effect on it.

 

The other argument in this thread is actually earning certain rewards after playing through content. (Who wouldn't want that) Which isnt mutually exclusive to a certain monetization method.

[kanemi.4903]

NO, NO, NO, AND MORE NO!
I'm only playing because its not a subscription monthly fee, because if it was, i'm pretty sure I would not be playing at all.

 

[HappyHubris.1096]

I would prefer a sub model for a few reasons (even if there was still a cash shop for purely cosmetic transactions) :

1. Fully-functional UI without per-character micro-transactions (e.g. equipment templates, build slots).
2. No more limiting the players choice to push the cash shop (e.g. limited equipment transmute charges).
3. No more annoying the player into revising deficiencies (e.g. bank size, material storage size).

(Also, why is there an "indent" button without a "reduce indent" button?)

[HappyHubris.1096]

16 hours ago, BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372 said:

FWIW when it comes to cosmetics I can acquire by just playing the game, either as drops or by crafting (and grinding) and that I actually WANT to acquire, I take GW2 over WOW each day.

 

This is kind of funny, as GW2 forces you to buy each and every equipment transmute. Also, GW2 non-cash skins are pretty rough based on your race, gender, and armor class (e.g. male Charr light armor).

 

[DeanBB.4268]

That's so weird. I've never bought a transmutation charge, and change up skins fairly regularly, and have 364 in my wallet. Huh. Go figure.

[Sonderm.4639]

16 minutes ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

 

The game is kind of stingy with transmutation charges if you only play PVE, that's true (it does give you three charges per months as log-in rewards though, so you don't have to but each of them). If you play PVP or WvW though, you'll get more of them thrown at you than you can ever consume. There should be a better balance.

Is some armor rough looking on some races? Sure, but again that is hardly a consequence of the business model (since even most gemstore skins are primarily designed for human characters). It's not as if by making a game subscription based, developers stop caring about development costs and simply start throwing money/development resources at problems.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

9 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Here its my turn to say, did you read what i posted? 😛

 

My point is that the your reason for disliking the cashshop should still be their in WOW. So my question is why is the problem not their for you in WoW even though they have a cashshop?

Thought by thought!

The metaphor wasn't meant as a counter-point of any sort, more as an explanation of my stance on the issue:
the cash shop is relatively irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, especially since most cash shop games don't even have our gold-gem conversion in the first place, I'd wager; what we're talking about is that getting a new shiny skin shouldn't be bound (almost) solely to gold or money.

Of course, not everybody has the time or willingness to reach a reward through in-game means, and, just as You've said before, a certain balance should be struck - which is a spark for another debate entirely - yet having the vast majority of things tied to grinding gold means there will always be a best way of getting it, which favors those who think like Himi.
 

 

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

My point was never that f2p are better then sub. Just that they are not worse by merit of beeing f2p.

And both have different advantages and disadvantages.

The mayor disadvantage of sub ones is that niche games can not really use this model.

The mayor disadvantage of f2p ones is that some thing will have to be sold in some cashshop, which will annoy some part of the playerbase.

You're right (except EVE Online would like a word with that niche exclusion), if we considered the two models in a vacuum.

Taking the real world consequences into account, however, the F2P model is the epitome of everything wrong with callous manipulation running rampant.
Sure, theoretically, everybody is always able to simply opt out of any participation, but the human psyche is a very frail and impressionable thing to begin with, not to mention people who had the misfortune of abusive relationships or just plain bad luck in experience.
Habits are formed, innate biases exploited, and primal urges satisfied - a surefire way to suck people in without any effort.
That's why it's so hard to give up smoking, why conspiracy hypotheses exist, and why fantasy armor turns men into cans, but since the real strength of a woman comes from within, sticks and stones can't break her bones.

So I completely agree that people kill people, not guns.
But giving a gun to a very, very pissed of guy standing in front of the one who wronged him, there's no wonder four murders of crows have already gathered.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I am truly against subscription based games. The main reason is that they utilise a businessmodel based around addiction/ It creates an unhealthy symbiosis between the player and the company.

The company needs the player to be entertained and kept busy so they keep providing the company with the monthly fee. This means a focus on repetitive content and constant vertical progression and grind.
Games like GW2 are an escape from reality to the players. It is a way to relax and get a way from the everyday slur. For those who have a hard time in life, this effect is worse.

The escape for the player and the addiction on the monthly fee by the devs create an unhealthy situation.

[HappyHubris.1096]

1 hour ago, mercury ranique.2170 said:

I am truly against subscription based games. The main reason is that they utilise a businessmodel based around addiction/ It creates an unhealthy symbiosis between the player and the company.

The company needs the player to be entertained and kept busy so they keep providing the company with the monthly fee. This means a focus on repetitive content and constant vertical progression and grind.
Games like GW2 are an escape from reality to the players. It is a way to relax and get a way from the everyday slur. For those who have a hard time in life, this effect is worse.

The escape for the player and the addiction on the monthly fee by the devs create an unhealthy situation.

There are plenty of cash-shop-only games that feed off addition, such as gacha games.  GW2 also throws a lot of repetitive things at the player to incentivize logging in: daily rewards, legendary grinds, daily event chests, ascended gear grinds for each prefix in use, etc.

[SnowHawk.3615]

Also a really cool thing would be new dungeons that came with the new maps since HoT and not just Fractals or Raids- but actual new dungeons that came with its own personal loot like the classic ones. I really like dungeons, would be cool to see and play in new ones. But realistically, that'll never happen: just like balanced classes where all builds are viable rather than just 1 meta, replay value of old content, and solid lore. Oh well. 

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

I would prefer a sub model for a few reasons (even if there was still a cash shop for purely cosmetic transactions) :

1. Fully-functional UI without per-character micro-transactions (e.g. equipment templates, build slots).
2. No more limiting the players choice to push the cash shop (e.g. limited equipment transmute charges).
3. No more annoying the player into revising deficiencies (e.g. bank size, material storage size).

(Also, why is there an "indent" button without a "reduce indent" button?)

Which shows how weirdly illogical this is. 

You can get all that by spending money gems monthly. €5, €10, €15 take your pick of a monthly "sub". Unlock everything up to cap. If you want to get fancy economical you can even spend €500 straight away and argue that's for a couple years worth of "sub", in order to unlock more instantly.

What's the difference? Why would you prefer a sub model over literally the exact same thing with more flexibility and choice?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

If gw2 changed to Subscription, I would quit

 

Let me be a bit more clear...

I would HAVE to quit.

I can warrant a one-time purchase, but I cannot warrant, nor affort a monthly subscription.

 

Please stop this nonsense. Please stop pushing sub on a game where a large group plays because they cannot affort sub based games.

 

You want subscription? Play a subscription based game, but do NOT take THIS game away from those that cannot affort a sub based game.

 

Nowhere in your opening topic do I see you taking into consideration that some people HAVE to quit the game.

No, no and no.

 

I applaud ArenaNet for never giving in to the sub craze

[Ashantara.8731]

What a silly suggestion by the OP. You want to see even more players quit than already have?

[Riaenvyr.2091]

Alright, I got officially bored by the "make your own sub" argument.
Let's look at the total cost of maxing out on everything a sub-based game would give everybody for a monthly devotion.

The first character cost (because some things are account-wide):
Additional Crafting License: 2x 800 gems.
Bank Tab Expansion: 16x 600 gems.
Build Storage Expansion: 7x 500 gems.
Shared Inventory Slot: 4x 2800 gems + 2x 700 gems.
Storage Expander: 7x 800 gems.
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.

Total: 37 800 gems - 472,50 €

Additional character cost:
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.
(Character Slot itself: 800 gems.)

Total: 4900 (5700) gems - a breath above 61,25 (71,25) €

Although, because we can't have nice things and the inability to buy exact amount of in-game currencies with money is just another manipulation attempt, we'd have to buy more gems than we actually need (only 200, granted my calculations are correct, but that requires a bunch of combinations of available values on the buyer's part, and any leftover is already a perceived "discount" on the next thing to buy, which is a well-known trick abused on a regular basis by pretty much everybody).

No Living World, no special areas, no costumes, no skins, no quality of life, no nothing.

As such, for the price of a fully fleshed-out first character, you could easily get an old car, a pretty musical instrument, or, in some cases, a whole apartment, while every other character would, without a slot, trade for a triple-A game at launch, plus a cup of tea.

For comparison, a monthly subscription to WoW, which currently costs 13€ at the worst value of buying it each month, would yield a full access to everything the game has to offer for a few months more than 3 years for the price of the first character, jumping to about two weeks short of 8 years with the best value of 11€.


The reason why such an atrocious price tag that nobody without a severe lack of sense or their mother's wallet would ever even consider willingly is the F2P monetization model, which always makes everything look palatable, a philosophy native to the model, mind you, not ANet.

Still, the main thing I want to bring up - and why the "make your own sub" argument is utter trash - is the difference between the F2P and sub-based games' structure.
As I've said a couple of times at this point, a F2P game is developed in a vastly different way than a sub-based one, so a "make you own sub" would work ONLY if everybody was forced to make their own sub, which is basically a regular sub already.

F2P games make money the same way an illusionist baffles the audience: a classic misdirection.

And before you start unloading your "But GW2 has gold-to-gem conversion!" miniguns, consider the fact that most other F2P games gift players a lot of free stuff otherwise found only in cash shop (e. g. customization items/bag slots in Vindictus), or said items are actively being traded on the auction house (BDO outfits immediately come to mind).
So although I'd say our cash shop version is superior to any overall, because we're able to buy literal everything offered in the Gem Store with our playtime, it's far from unique in the MMORPG market, and certainly far from perfect.

But shoot away, anyway.
Ideas are bulletproof.

[Sonderm.4639]

46 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

The first character cost (because some things are account-wide):
Additional Crafting License: 2x 800 gems.
Bank Tab Expansion: 16x 600 gems.
Build Storage Expansion: 7x 500 gems.
Shared Inventory Slot: 4x 2800 gems + 2x 700 gems.
Storage Expander: 7x 800 gems.
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.

Total: 37 800 gems - 472,50 €

Additional character cost:
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.
(Character Slot itself: 800 gems.)

Total: 4900 (5700) gems - a breath above 61,25 (71,25) €

[snip]
For comparison, a monthly subscription to WoW, which currently costs 13€ at the worst value of buying it each month, would yield a full access to everything the game has to offer for a few months more than 3 years for the price of the first character, jumping to about two weeks short of 8 years with the best value of 11€.

[snip]

A bit disingenuous. WOW has 2 professions per character, build storage is available only as an add-on (which tbf isn't necessarily a disadvantage), there are no shared inventory slots, five bag slots and 10 equipment sets (this puts GW2 to shame indeed). 

Bank space is a mixed bag. Since each character has its own "private" bank you might end up with more than you get in GW with the not small inconvenience that you lack storage that can be accessed by all characters on your account. Which also means that there is no central material storage which all characters can access. Add to that the fact that stack size in WoW varies from 5 to 200 so that additional bank space may look great at first, but looks can be deceiving.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372
edited for clarity

[Sonderm.4639]

I'm not sure if another aspect of sub based games has been mentioned (it applies to WOW, used to apply to SWTOR not sure if they changed it in the meantime, and it applies to FFXIV): since the games monetize your playtime, leveling takes far longer (WOW was insane before the recent changes) and can only be skipped by paying for it with real world money - no "tomes of knowledge".to quickly bring that new class up to max-level and account bound gear to gear her (all that all-important gear in WOW is soulbound, you can catch up characters that have fallen behind later during the expansion to some extent, but if you want them to be in state of the art gear, start grinding with two characters now).

Edited May 5, 2021 by BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Alright, I got officially bored by the "make your own sub" argument.
Let's look at the total cost of maxing out on everything a sub-based game would give everybody for a monthly devotion.

The first character cost (because some things are account-wide):
Additional Crafting License: 2x 800 gems.
Bank Tab Expansion: 16x 600 gems.
Build Storage Expansion: 7x 500 gems.
Shared Inventory Slot: 4x 2800 gems + 2x 700 gems.
Storage Expander: 7x 800 gems.
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.

Total: 37 800 gems - 472,50 €

Additional character cost:
Bag Slot Expansion: 5x 400 gems.
Build Template Expansion: 3x 300 gems.
Equipment Template Expansion: 4x 500 gems.
(Character Slot itself: 800 gems.)

Total: 4900 (5700) gems - a breath above 61,25 (71,25) €

Although, because we can't have nice things and the inability to buy exact amount of in-game currencies with money is just another manipulation attempt, we'd have to buy more gems than we actually need (only 200, granted my calculations are correct, but that requires a bunch of combinations of available values on the buyer's part, and any leftover is already a perceived "discount" on the next thing to buy, which is a well-known trick abused on a regular basis by pretty much everybody).

No Living World, no special areas, no costumes, no skins, no quality of life, no nothing.

As such, for the price of a fully fleshed-out first character, you could easily get an old car, a pretty musical instrument, or, in some cases, a whole apartment, while every other character would, without a slot, trade for a triple-A game at launch, plus a cup of tea.

For comparison, a monthly subscription to WoW, which currently costs 13€ at the worst value of buying it each month, would yield a full access to everything the game has to offer for a few months more than 3 years for the price of the first character, jumping to about two weeks short of 8 years with the best value of 11€.


The reason why such an atrocious price tag that nobody without a severe lack of sense or their mother's wallet would ever even consider willingly is the F2P monetization model, which always makes everything look palatable, a philosophy native to the model, mind you, not ANet.

Still, the main thing I want to bring up - and why the "make your own sub" argument is utter trash - is the difference between the F2P and sub-based games' structure.
As I've said a couple of times at this point, a F2P game is developed in a vastly different way than a sub-based one, so a "make you own sub" would work ONLY if everybody was forced to make their own sub, which is basically a regular sub already.

F2P games make money the same way an illusionist baffles the audience: a classic misdirection.

And before you start unloading your "But GW2 has gold-to-gem conversion!" miniguns, consider the fact that most other F2P games gift players a lot of free stuff otherwise found only in cash shop (e. g. customization items/bag slots in Vindictus), or said items are actively being traded on the auction house (BDO outfits immediately come to mind).
So although I'd say our cash shop version is superior to any overall, because we're able to buy literal everything offered in the Gem Store with our playtime, it's far from unique in the MMORPG market, and certainly far from perfect.

But shoot away, anyway.
Ideas are bulletproof.

All those cost totals might be more meaningful if they were mandatory, half that stuff you list I've still not bothered to purchase yet (such as the template stuff and the crafting license) and the other stuff I almost always purchase during sales and haven't max out any of them (like the bank and storage stuff).